Logos 4 should still be in Beta

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Posts 3676
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2010 11:09 AM

tom collinge:
 I decided to wait until the features that I use are available (print, notes, etc...), and now we are told that the upgrade discount ends at the end of the month.  Therefore, for those of us who decided to wait have to pay a higher price for the upgrade.

Hi Tom,

Are you aware that you can buy an upgrade package to get the new resources AND USE THEM IN L3 until you feel L4 is ready? Logos did a dual release of the new resources so you don't have to wait to do the upgrade. If that's of interest to you, check their blog to find the scripts to download the L3 equivalents.

It really was intended to be a win-win, as Bob wrote. And he's not divining what Bob Pritchett thought in releasing early, Bob P responded with his thinking in response to beta tester concerns that were similar to yours (& mine, as a beta tester). Giving us L3 versions of all the new resources takes away all the risk.

Many blessings on your decision...

Grace & Peace,
Bill


Asus GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
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Posts 1646
SteveF | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2010 12:33 PM

joseortega:
Hey Steve, why do you assume I am a "Christian" brother?

Hi, Jose, welcome back

BUT that was NOT me - I don't "assume" anything, except to "feel your pain"

that was our "brother" Joe who posted:QUOTE: Christian brothers

Nevertheless, I do hope you "are."

All the best as you enjoy your new purchase.

Regards

Steve

Regards, SteveF

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2010 1:02 PM

tom collinge:
Robert, I disagree with your "win win for everyone" statement.  For those of us who have decided to wait.  I decided to wait until the features that I use are available (print, notes, etc...), and now we are told that the upgrade discount ends at the end of the month.  Therefore, for those of us who decided to wait have to pay a higher price for the upgrade

 

Tom,

Well....if you want a special deal, then yes...by all means...buy now...but the reality is that what I stated was Logos' reasoning on the matter.

You COULD buy now...and NOT INSTALL...pretending like it doesn't exist...and wait until you think it's ready....then install and THEN it's a win-win for you....right?

 

I just don't see a downside....no matter what side you're on...it's a winning situation.

EDITED TO ADD: Whoops...looks like someone beat me to this answer Big Smile

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 30
Jose Ortega | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2010 5:38 PM

Steve, sorry for the typo...

peace

 

Posts 2738
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 17 2010 7:27 AM

As I read this I think that many people think those of us who think it is "beta-like" are saying it is a bad program. We are not. At least I am not. I can and I believe WILL be a great program.  But it suffers from some beta-like weaknesses.

1. Speed on many machines is less than adequate. This has been greatly improved by the current betas.

2. Lack of very significant v. 3.0 features - see missing features list

3. Some are reporting bugginess - but I don't think this is a real issue since almost all software has some bugs even very mature software. But if you are dealing with such a bug (I have the black title bar bug) then it might be significant.

Once the missing features are added back, by then I hope they will have optimized things to make speed not an issue for all. Then It will be a mature and stable and GREAT!!! application.

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 17 2010 8:11 AM

Kevin A. Purcell:
As I read this I think that many people think those of us who think it is "beta-like" are saying it is a bad program. We are not

Well YOU may not be but if "usage controls meaning" in the bible....so it does here on the forum...in the vast majority of instances BETA means "not ready for release because it lacks my favorite feature"...and therefore, the word beta IS being used in a negative way...and not as a technical term.

You've never heard someone on these forums say: "Wow! V4 is BETA! It has everything I want!"

No....lol....because the term is being used as synonymous with " It shouldn't have been released before I was satisfied with what's included!"

But there is a problem with using the "beta" label: Logos believes that this software is good enough for release; it's theirs, they can deem it's level of "preparedness" any way they see fit...they've called it "released" and therefore; it's NOT beta software...but actual released software.

Now...it may be many things:

"less zippy than you'd like"

Agreed.

And it may be:

"less feature filled than I'd like to see"

Agreed.

"missing some important elements"

Agreed.

But the word beta refers to a specific level that the software is at....namely a "testing phase" and more specifically means "not ready for public use"

And that's not an accurate statement in they eyes of those who produce this software.

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 1977
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 17 2010 8:41 AM

Robert Pavich:
..in the vast majority of instances BETA means "not ready for release because it lacks my favorite feature"..

I disagree.  BETA means not ready for release because it doesn't work properly on many computers...download issues, crashes, indexing issues... L4 is a great program.  But many cannot use it because it simply wont work properly for everyone.  I know someone will now follow up this post by telling us they are running windows 95 on a 20 year old computer and L4 works fine.  But the bottom line is, it does not work on many computers

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 17 2010 8:55 AM

MarkSwaim:
But many cannot use it because it simply wont work properly for everyone. 

Mark,

the problem with that statement is that that label can be applied to a lot of released software...and it's improper to call software that lacks your favorite features or that doesn't run as fast as you think it should as "beta."

You said "many cannot use it"

Well first; how many is many that flat out don't have the ability to actually use the program?

How many are we talking about?

5? 10? 100?

What's the Logos V4 user base up to?

------------------------------------

How about defining "work properly"?

You mean that you push a button to "open" BWS and your ESV pops up?

OR

do you mean (as I mentioned) "it lacks my favorite feature"?

 

Well...V4 may lack a lot of thing people desire and it may not be fast in some cases, but the word beta is specific.

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 323
Doug | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 17 2010 9:15 AM

I think you are both correct becuase Logos has released a stable version.  That is not beta.  It is released.  There is a current beta version in the works to fix bugs and add new features.  That one is beta.  All that matters to me is that we have a good piece of software to do our Bible study with and we have a great piece of software on the way. 

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 17 2010 9:16 AM

Doug:
I think you are both correct becuase Logos has released a stable version.  That is not beta.  It is released.  There is a current beta version in the works to fix bugs and add new features.  That one is beta.  All that matters to me is that we have a good piece of software to do our Bible study with and we have a great piece of software on the way. 

On THAT....i think we'd all agree.. Big Smile

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 232
AndyTheGreek | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 17 2010 9:19 AM

Kevin A. Purcell:

As I read this I think that many people think those of us who think it is "beta-like" are saying it is a bad program. We are not. At least I am not. I can and I believe WILL be a great program.  But it suffers from some beta-like weaknesses.

1. Speed on many machines is less than adequate. This has been greatly improved by the current betas.

2. Lack of very significant v. 3.0 features - see missing features list

3. Some are reporting bugginess - but I don't think this is a real issue since almost all software has some bugs even very mature software. But if you are dealing with such a bug (I have the black title bar bug) then it might be significant.

Once the missing features are added back, by then I hope they will have optimized things to make speed not an issue for all. Then It will be a mature and stable and GREAT!!! application.

One other aspect of Beta is that, in production software, data structures have to be stable. Bob has already stated that some of the need to update tons of resources is because the data structure has changed. I would guess that this is why 1000 Bible Images (a bulky download) has updated (I think) twice since Logos4 was released. I doubt the actual graphics have changed...

One of the fundamental 'laws' of robust software development is the 'open/closed' principle. That is the software is 'open' to extension BUT closed to CHANGE. And changes to data structures lead to such pervasive data changes that we (I'm a professional developer) avoid them as much as possible because of the pain it causes both developers and customers.

For this reason I've stopped using Logos4 - I cannot afford to use up (or be charged for extra) bandwidth (I'm in the UK and have just a few gigs a month). Neither can I afford the time - I bought this software to enhance my Bible Study not to be subjected to download after download and mega index updates several times a month.

I plan to use Logos3 for the next few months and when Logos4 seems 'stable' in the sense that program changes don't require me to redownload loads of (mostly unused) resources then I will revisit it.

Andy

 

Posts 1977
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 17 2010 9:31 AM

Robert Pavich:
do you mean (as I mentioned) "it lacks my favorite feature"?

I mean as I mentioned, the program does not work well on many computers.  The forum is a testimony to the problems that have come with L4.  I do not mean favorite features. I love the program now.  But when open the homepage, it does not open, but crashes...I cannot spend hours of my time figuring out why.  When I run a search, it crashes etc  I cannot use the program most of the time

Posts 579
Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 17 2010 10:01 AM

I am a huge supporter of Logos 4, I think it is great and getting better!

However, concerning this idea of beta or not, I must point out that our feelings on this subject could depend on when you first bought the program.

For example I bought it on day one.  I had no idea there was a whole bunch of features that were still not in the program, and there was no mention of it by the salesman, in fact I latter found out he was learning as things went along just like I was.  There was no page telling a person that more was to come and that you were missing features and some resources, I had no idea my pbb files would not transfer over, and neither did the sales team.  This information came later.  There was no wiki site to help with questions and no one on the forums knew anywhere near what they do now! Can you remember when there were no user made videos, it was bad.

For some such as myself, I bought a huge list of books, and then found that some of them are not even done, Yet!   It took me another 3-4 weeks to discover on my own, that the list of books that I paid for was not accurate, and that not only were there books on that list that were not done yet, but that some of the books actually did not belong to in my library and I would never get them!

The download on that first day took 23 hours and then it took about 21 hours for the first build..  Thank God, things have changed a lot since those days.  No one knew any thing, the sales person who I have dealt with for along time didn't know much more than I did, if any.  Logos made things right for me and said they were sorry for their mistakes and that they had done a poor job of getting the right information to us.

A lot has changed since those days, and the program has undergone tons of changes already, and now people on the forum actaully know a lot about the system and we have many different ways to learn about the new program.

People that buy now, know the program is missing features, or they should if they check out the site before they buy.  They also are told a lot more about theamount of  time it will take to down load and then build the files the first time. There is also more little indicators to show you what is going on during the first install.  And after the first few days the correct information on what is in the Platinum library was put on the web site and the wrong information was taken down.

If a person that bought the software right away and went through all of these things and many more, it is very easy to see why they feel this is a beta program, they have seen many changes and they have to adjust to the fact that even if they did not know it up front, the new program was not meant to have all the features that Libronix 3 had, at least not right away!  Many of these same folks have gone through the New Years change and seen several problems there that could also make the program appear to be "beta like".

I think the real issue is not if Logos 4 is still beta or not, but rather can a person live without all of the features in Logos 4, at least for the moment and learn to use it , as the new features come along,

if not, and they had Libronix 3, do they still like Libronix 3, and can they still use all of the features in it???  did they get a great buy on a bunch of new resources for Libronix 3???  If so, enjoy your Libronix 3, until Logos 4 is completed and then fire it up and start learning. Or you can always ask for a refund.

At this point a person has a good idea what to expect in Logos 4, if it is too frustrating, you know what you need to do, don't keep putting yourself in a bad position ask  for a refund or go back to Libronix 3, until Logos 4 is done. 

Things are what they are no matter what name we use for them, there are going to be constant updates and changes to Logos 4, at least for the next few months or longer, if we can't live with those changes constantly happening, we need to just use Libonix 3, we can not change what it is going to take to get Logos 4 up to our standards, but if those things bother us too much we can avoid them!

In Christ,

Jim

Posts 323
Doug | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 17 2010 4:33 PM

Andy Bell:
For this reason I've stopped using Logos4 - I cannot afford to use up (or be charged for extra) bandwidth (I'm in the UK and have just a few gigs a month). Neither can I afford the time - I bought this software to enhance my Bible Study not to be subjected to download after download and mega index updates several times a month.

I can certainly understand your reasoning behind this.  But if you have the latest stuff, why not just turn off automatic updates and use L4 as it is.  Then you could update every few months as you see fit.  You could keep an eye on the forums to see what is updating and how big the updates are; that sort of thing. 

Posts 198
Bryan Brodess | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 17 2010 5:21 PM

MarkSwaim:

Robert Pavich:
..in the vast majority of instances BETA means "not ready for release because it lacks my favorite feature"..

I disagree.  BETA means not ready for release because it doesn't work properly on many computers...download issues, crashes, indexing issues... L4 is a great program.  But many cannot use it because it simply wont work properly for everyone.  I know someone will now follow up this post by telling us they are running windows 95 on a 20 year old computer and L4 works fine.  But the bottom line is, it does not work on many computers

Windows 7 will not work on many computers, Many of todays games will not work properly on many computers. The technology to do the work that it is asked to do overworks many old computers. Does this mean that microsoft should not have released windows 7, or EA should not release the latrest game because many computors can not get all the eye candy??  or that logos should shelf logos 4 because it does not work on older computers?? No!

Technology will increase. I can probably say with very little doubt that logos 6 probably will not work very well on the computer i have today. But I pray they keep using technology to make logos better, Even if I have to upgrade my computer to use it properly..

 

 

Posts 232
AndyTheGreek | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 17 2010 11:56 PM

Doug:

Andy Bell:
For this reason I've stopped using Logos4 - I cannot afford to use up (or be charged for extra) bandwidth (I'm in the UK and have just a few gigs a month). Neither can I afford the time - I bought this software to enhance my Bible Study not to be subjected to download after download and mega index updates several times a month.

I can certainly understand your reasoning behind this.  But if you have the latest stuff, why not just turn off automatic updates and use L4 as it is.  Then you could update every few months as you see fit.  You could keep an eye on the forums to see what is updating and how big the updates are; that sort of thing. 

For quite a few factors (often mentioned on these boards), but mainly:

  • PBB - I have many resources and build my own
  • Performance - on my Netbook Logos3 is fast, Logos4 is sluggish. On my desktop Logo3 is blazingly fast, Logos4 is adequate.

I guess there's an underlying sense of frustration that Logos4 is not finished, that it's use of whizz-bang cutting edge technology gives ME nothing over Logos3 that I consider to be essential and that I disagree with the way Logos seem to be treating us as beta testers for an unfinished product. I also think it's the IT professional in me that keeps thinking 'if my team produced stuff like this I would not be happy with them'...

When Bob posted that 'configurable downloads' would never happen due to the tighter binding of the code to the data and that the data structures were still subject to change I will admit I just shook my head and went back to Logos3.

I'm sure Logos4 will, one day, be finished and, providing you have a high spec system, it will perform well. I still question the decision for a Bible Research program to virtually require top spec hardware to get decent performance on. I know, because I have written such things, that all of the improvements to Logos4's interface and features could have been achieved in a far less 'hardware demanding' way...

Posts 58
MarCya Mooney | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 18 2010 12:47 AM

Oh my goodness!  FINALLY someone else had the guts to say this besides me!  I am so disappointed with L4.  It took 18 hours to download even with my very fast WiFi, now the indexing and upgrades take (like you said) 4 hours!  Who has that kind of time to have their computer come to a halt?

Thanks for calling it like it is!

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 18 2010 12:54 AM

MarCia Mooney:

Oh my goodness!  FINALLY someone else had the guts to say this besides me!  I am so disappointed with L4.  It took 18 hours to download even with my very fast WiFi, now the indexing and upgrades take (like you said) 4 hours!  Who has that kind of time to have their computer come to a halt?

Thanks for calling it like it is!

So, if they agree with you they have guts? I guess those of us that disagree with you are spineless lackies of the Logos industrial complex? Now, where is the honesty in logic like that?

My experiences do not coincide with yours. Logos4 has proven to be a good reliable tool for me, which is why I just doubled my investment in it. You don't like it? Stop using it, but don't expect the majority of the people on the forum to do so, just because of your experiences.

 

 

Posts 27927
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 18 2010 1:12 AM

MarCia Mooney:
Oh my goodness!  FINALLY someone else had the guts to say this besides me! 

Hey - I'd have the guts to say it - however, it wasn't my experience. I don't have a super computer - just an old one maximized for web development. I don't have the biggest package or additional resources. I do have a lot of notes, PBB's, timelines, lectionaries and verse lists I'm waiting to convert. The only crashes I've had (ongoing) are certain pastes into Notes. Perfect? No, but good enough to keep me sufficiently interested in exploring how to best convert my work habits to fit L4 that I keep forgetting to go to bed.Wink

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 18 2010 3:03 AM

MJ. Smith:
Perfect? No, but good enough to keep me sufficiently interested in exploring how to best convert my work habits to fit L4 that I keep forgetting to go to bed.Wink

So that's why you keep popping up on my homepage reading lists... Surprise

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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