Logos 6 and Windows tablet experience and need for improvements

Page 1 of 1 (14 items)
This post has 13 Replies | 1 Follower

Posts 14
Don Potts | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Jan 25 2015 4:41 AM

I received a Lenovo Yoga 10.1 Windows tablet at Christmas. Like many Windows tablets, it has 2GB of RAM. Because of the space required by my Logos library, I've installed Logos 6 to my 64GB SD card. To do so successfully, I followed suggestions in the Logos forums and installed my resources on my desktop PC and indexed them there before moving them and the indices to my tablet. This was after several failed attempts of trying to install and create indices directly on my tablet.

Everything worked fine until some of my resources were updated and/or I purchased additional resources and the indices needed to be updated. When Logos tries to update the indices on the tablet, it either locks up or otherwise fails. It seems the only reliable way to keep my tablet up to date is to continue the steps of updating my desktop PC first and then move everything to my tablet whenever any of my resources change.

Having been in the software industry for over two decades, I can appreciate the position Logos is in: system memory and disk space kept growing but, now, have shrunk with the popularity of real Windows systems that are lower-powered and that have lower limits on system resources. However, as a customer, it is inefficient and an annoyance to go through the same time-consuming steps whenever resources are updated.

The main reason I got the Yoga was to have a convenient, capable device for using with all the books I purchase. I have used an Android tablet, but the Logos app was not as powerful as the Windows desktop app. Neither is the Windows store app. To me, an ideal device would be the Yoga, or something similar, that runs full Windows, since that seems to be the "best" Logos version. Using a Web version is a non-starter, because I can't always have Web access when I need Logos (such as in villages in countries outside the U.S. that don't have Internet access).

Has anyone found a reliable method of updating Logos on a tablet like the Yoga (itself a very nice system, that handles well everything I want it to do, including running Logos smoothly once the resources are in shape)?

A suggestion for the Logos team: what is the possibility of breaking out the indexer so that it can run independently of the Logos app? Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems that Logos currently needs to be ruining for the indexer to run. Having Logos running takes up system resources that could otherwise be used by the indexer. Also, tackling getting the indexer to work on resource-limited systems could be easier with it separated from the main app (of course, I don't know how your code is structured and how much work might be involved in splitting out the indexer 😊).

I love Logos, and I do find it can run quickly enough and smoothly enough on the Yoga. I can also store and use all my Kindle, Nook, and other ebooks on my Yoga. The only thing not working well yet is updating my Logos resources.

Thanks!

Don

Posts 767
Alan Charles Gielczyk | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 25 2015 5:17 AM

I have Logos on a Surface Pro 3 and installed on the SSD. I love it and couldn't be happier.

Posts 14
Don Potts | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 25 2015 7:56 AM

Glad to hear it!  The Surface Pro 3s are wonderful systems, but in a different category from tablets like the Yoga and its counterparts.  :-)

Posts 28244
Forum MVP
JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 25 2015 8:00 AM

I don't know about windows, but on Mac the indexer can run after you close the app. 

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 4768
Forum MVP
Fred Chapman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 25 2015 8:02 AM

alabama24:

I don't know about windows, but on Mac the indexer can run after you close the app. 

That is true for windows as well

Posts 4768
Forum MVP
Fred Chapman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 25 2015 8:11 AM

Don Potts:
Everything worked fine until some of my resources were updated and/or I purchased additional resources and the indices needed to be updated. When Logos tries to update the indices on the tablet, it either locks up or otherwise fails. It seems the only reliable way to keep my tablet up to date is to continue the steps of updating my desktop PC first and then move everything to my tablet whenever any of my resources change.

Given the limitations of the tablet you are using it would probably be best to update your tablet from the already updated PC. Keep in mind that your tablet specs are at the bare minimum logos specs. The indexing issue may space issue on the SD card (not enough room to index), or a performance issue associated with the tablet hardware. I played with a Windows tablet last year and was not real happy with the performance. Many have given the Surface and some other higher end windows tablets running good reviews. 

Posts 14
Don Potts | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 25 2015 6:38 PM

Hi. Thanks for your response!

Apart from the indexing issue, I find the performance of the Yoga with Logos to be fine for what I need. I have an original Surface RT as well, which is much slower over all. I've been amazed at the speed of the Yoga.

Though the Yoga is near the minimum requirements for Logos, it does meet them, so I would expect it to work.

I have the Platinum version of Logos, which requires a little under 12GB of space for resources. A 64GB SD card provides enough room for 4 more copies of all the data while indexing. I would expect indexing after the initial time to take less space unless something triggers a complete regeneration.

I'd appreciate hearing from the Logos team what to expect in terms of RAM and disk requirements for indexing. If the Logos developers, knowing how the indexer manages resources, think using a 128GB SD card instead would ensure success, I'd get one. But without their input, it seems to me that getting a larger SD card would just be taking a shot in the dark. I don't want to, and can't afford to, spend more money on a Yoga solution if because of technical reasons indexing will continue to be a problem.

It seems it would be helpful to at least update the list of system requirements to account for tablets that run full Windows versions but whose combination of speed, RAM, internal "disk" space, and SD card space are insufficient overall, though on paper they look like they should be sufficient.

Thanks, again!

Don

 

Posts 8201
LogosEmployee

Don Potts:
If the Logos developers, knowing how the indexer manages resources, think using a 128GB SD card instead would ensure success

We do not recommend installing the program (or indexing) on external drives or SD cards.

Posts 180
Paul C | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 25 2015 8:08 PM

Don Potts:
It seems it would be helpful to at least update the list of system requirements to account for tablets that run full Windows versions but whose combination of speed, RAM, internal "disk" space, and SD card space are insufficient overall, though on paper they look like they should be sufficient.
It seems to me that the overall hardware specs are not at issue. ... But rather the attempt to locate Logos somewhere other than the main drive. I have logos on a Dell venue 8 Pro with similar specs but installed it on the 64 GB internal drive. It runs just fine...even updates and indexes. If it is possible for you to install Logos on the main drive, and relocate other files to the SD. I am sure you would be satisfied/pleased.

Edit: Bradley gave a more concise reply while I was composing mine, But I will leave it as confirmation.

Posts 25595
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 26 2015 3:39 AM

Don Potts:
I have the Platinum version of Logos, which requires a little under 12GB of space for resources. A 64GB SD card provides enough room for 4 more copies of all the data while indexing. I would expect indexing after the initial time to take less space unless something triggers a complete regeneration.

64GB for your Logos installation is fine (Logos would need an extra 5 GB for a full index, giving a total of about 25 GB for the installation). Faithlife are being realistic about indexing on an SD card, as it is the single weakness that faces every user on a tablet. It is OK for small resource updates but take the files off your PC for anything else. Set Automatically Download Updates to NO so you can assess the download size before committing it.

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 1706
JoshInRI | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 26 2015 5:32 AM

Amen and God bless us all Windows Tablet users..

Posts 1976
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 26 2015 5:42 AM

Paul C:

I have logos on a Dell venue 8 Pro with similar specs but installed it on the 64 GB internal drive. It runs just fine...even updates and indexes. If it is possible for you to install Logos on the main drive, and relocate other files to the SD. I am sure you would be satisfied/pleased.

This is also the approach I took with my 1st Gen Surface Pro (128GB) - Logos on SSD, other files moved to SD card.

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 623
JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 26 2015 5:47 PM

I have been using a Logos 5 installation on a microSDXC card for some time with satisfaction, although it is tedious to update. My solution is to do this infrequently, i.e. for major updates. I find that I can make due in between reading most new resources on my Android phone.

I don't fault Faithlife for choosing not to provide means with which to independently configure where the various elements of a Logos, Verbum, or Noet installation are stored. I do earnestly desire that this will be reconsidered and changed.

The option to store library resources to one storage volume, i.e. microSDXC in this case, and have indexes on a different storage volume, i.e. the primary SSD, would allow various storage hardware to be used more effectively. Most library resources are stable only changing when updated. MicroSD cards are well suited for storing these basically read only files. Building indexes is a read and write modify intense process for which microSD cards are not optimally designed.

There is a similar OS X specific discussion:

It's 2015 - Still No Option to Hold Resources on a Separate Drive for Mac?

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/99767/689788.aspx#689788

"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963

Posts 14
Don Potts | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 13 2015 6:06 PM

Thanks, everyone, for the help!  Sorry for the slow response, but I recently retired from my job and we've been traveling.

So, after reading your responses and doing some more research, I ended up with the following:

  • Logos 6 installed on the internal drive.
  • Resources installed on the microSD card.
  • A symbolic link between the resources folder on the internal drive and the resources folder on the microSD card.

This is in line with what JAL mentions above and with other posts I've read.  Indexing, if I decide to do it, occurs on the internal drive which is more suitable for intensive read/write operations.  The pretty much static resources live on the microSD where they are written to infrequently and read from with much less intensity than indexing operations.

The internal drive uses NTFS, and the microSD card uses the native exFAT format. At least with Windows 8.1 (don't know about earlier versions), you can create symbolic links from NTFS drives to exFAT drives (not the reverse, though).

I set up my installation by installing Logos on the Yoga but without downloading any resources and then following step 2 of the seemingly very famous document on quickly setting up on multiple computers, copying the necessary files from my desktop PC.  The only variation from step 2 was using the symbolic link to store the resources on the microSD card.

At first, Logos didn't find my resources. I assume this is because the drive letter changes between the setup on my desktop PC and the setup on my Yoga. After doing a scan to find the resources, everything was found as expected.

I was able to download and index a 300 MB or so update on the Yoga directly.  It failed the first time due to a lack of space on the internal drive.  I had 6 GB or so free (after already having full indexes from the initial setup), but the indexing process consumed all the disk space and quit. I deleted the indexes, which gave me around 12 GB free, and I let Logos recreate them.  This time there was sufficient space, and the indexing succeeded. It took somewhere between 5 and 7 hours (I'm not sure, since I was asleep when it was indexing).  I'm assuming the first attempt failed because Logos left the indexes in place while creating new ones and would only keep the new ones and delete the old ones if the indexing proved successful.  Someone from Logos could confirm/clarify that.

Anyway, I now have a working system.  I think I'll tend to download resources and update indexes on my desktop PC and then copy those to my Yoga.  However, it's good to know that I can fall back to doing everything on the Yoga if I really need to.  I finally have one tablet that is easy to carry and use and that has the full-blown version of Logos on it plus all my Kindle, Nook, and miscellaneous ebooks.

The Yoga is quick enough and has been very reliable so far.  With a resolution of 1920 x 1200, the screen is beautiful, though sometimes fonts can be a little small.

Oh, one other note.  My original microSD card was a SanDisk 64GB card.  It seems that part of my instability problems was that the card failed.  As other people on the Internet have noticed, sometimes the cards think they are locked and can't be formatted.  I noticed that when I tried to uninstall Logos from my original attempt with the Yoga, some of the files weren't removed.  I tried to delete them manually, but they still wouldn't go away (they would look like they were gone, but then they showed up again).  Formatting the card kept failing and then I started getting a "locked" message (even though the cards have no lock).  I've started the process of getting the card replaced under warranty.  In the meantime, I switched to a Samsung Pro 64 GB card, and it has been working flawlessly.

Thanks, again, for all your help!

God bless you!

Don

Page 1 of 1 (14 items) | RSS