Masters in Biblical Studies
This is not exactly Logos software related. However, I know there are a ton of Pastors and ministry workers on this forum. I have a dilemma and I am looking for some help.
I will be finished with my BS in Religion next week. Currently I am looking towards my Masters. Army tuition assistance will pay up to 39 hours of my Masters. Here is my main question. What is the biggest difference between a 36 hour Masters and one with more hours (60 and above) other than additional courses? Does the 36 hour Masters hold less weight in the ministry search for a Church position than those with more hours?
I can provide additional details if requested.
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I think it has more to do with what your next step will be. If a Masters is your final degree, it is irrelevant. But you might need the 60 hr. degree if you intending to go beyond that. I'm not saying that's a certainty. It really depends on the institution you attend. The ugly secret (that really isn't so secret) is that there isn't quite as much logic behind college and university requirements as many people assume. The 36 hr. degree may be sufficient, too. You need to ask the institution you might attend what they require. That's the key concern. The rest is of little consequence.
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Depends on the church and/or denomination. Some require at least a M.Div for some pastoral roles. And that degree typically takes 90+ credit hours to obtain at most seminaries. I personally don't think anyone "needs" any advanced degree to be a pastor, but I understand why some denominations prefer pastoral candidates to have them.
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Thanks David so to put that thought into perspective a Masters of Arts in Theology Biblical Studies Cognate (36 hrs) could land me a ministry position the same as a Masters of Religion Biblical Studies Cognate (60hrs).
I have been researching many ministry positions and some request an Mdiv, while others are happy with a BS as Josh points out. In my heart I feel I could roll with the 36 hour Masters because it is free. If needed at a later date I can roll that degree further along the Mdiv line if necessary.
I have 5 years left in the Army. Just trying to ensure I maximize all the free schooling I can yet pray I am following God's direction. Part of me still wants to be a Youth Pastor.
Oh, and my BS is from Liberty and I will most likely stay there for my Masters unless I decide I need more than the 36 hours if so I will be looking at Dallas Theological Seminary.
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Shane Atkinson said:
What is the biggest difference between a 36 hour Masters and one with more hours (60 and above) other than additional courses? Does the 36 hour Masters hold less weight in the ministry search for a Church position than those with more hours?
It depends upon which degrees you are comparing. Most people would probably consider the MDIV the "standard." Some schools offer an MAR, which is half of the MDIV. The school I graduated from, the MAR was 45 hours, the MDIV 90.
I started off working towards an MAR, but do to circumstances (including a scholarship), I ended up switching my enrollment to the MDIV just before I graduated.
The choice of program and school can be very important to you. I have applied to churches which probably didn't even consider me because of my school. I have applied to churches which gave me a second look for the same reason. You will find the same to be true no matter what school you attend... The same goes for the program you choose.
My advice? Check with some pastors / churches in which you would desire to serve. See what they think... but don't just ask one.
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Josh said:
Depends on the church and/or denomination.
That's an important point. The churches in my background don't require any particular degree, and in the past had a strong tradition of lay preachers. But, as the general population has become better educated over time, it's become common for preachers to also seek additional formal theological education. I think that's a very good thing. But I also appreciate that it's not a formal requirement, because we never want to forget that it's God working through us that strengthens the kingdom, and not our own wisdom or educational attainments.
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You might also want to consider the ordination requirements for the church/denomination you want to be affiliated with. Some "strongly" prefer that your degree come from a seminary they deem theologically compatible with their doctrinal positions. I think Liberty University is a fantastic college, but since that school has a strong dispensational bias...this may limit your job opportunities. However, many denominations have non-degree ordination paths that require you to instead complete an internal program set up by the denomination.
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choose teachers not classes.
choose teachers not school.
Just some advice from the wise I heard.
MDiv is church standard, M.Th is standard teaching requirement, Dr. if you got time, Ph.d if you're dedicated.
Be creative in your study & always push your limit.
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most of the <60 hour programs include very little (nothing) nothing of the Biblical Languages.
The M.Div. 90+ hours includes Biblical languages and thus prepares for Pulpit Ministry.
As someone who is seeking new placement I find that many churches are looking for a degree from a recognized Seminary so a MA would satisfy. Churches looking for a Sr. Pastor or a role with heavy teaching responsibilities tend to ask for a minimum of an M.Div.
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Shane Atkinson said:
Thanks David so to put that thought into perspective a Masters of Arts in Theology Biblical Studies Cognate (36 hrs) could land me a ministry position the same as a Masters of Religion Biblical Studies Cognate (60hrs).
I have been researching many ministry positions and some request an Mdiv, while others are happy with a BS as Josh points out. In my heart I feel I could roll with the 36 hour Masters because it is free. If needed at a later date I can roll that degree further along the Mdiv line if necessary.
I have 5 years left in the Army. Just trying to ensure I maximize all the free schooling I can yet pray I am following God's direction. Part of me still wants to be a Youth Pastor.
Oh, and my BS is from Liberty and I will most likely stay there for my Masters unless I decide I need more than the 36 hours if so I will be looking at Dallas Theological Seminary.
Shane, you might consider mixing it up. Liberty is a Baptist (Bible Baptist I think) school so you might consider another denomination (like Knox or a non-denominational school) for your Masters. This could potentially open more doors for you later. Since your in the Military and attending Liberty I assume your doing your degrees online. Many of the seminaries now have that option though they will likely require more than 36 hours for a degree. Just something to think about.
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My post went missing so here is the summary
- Liberty is Southern Baptist.
- Don't move outside of your denominational/theological lines for grad work. It will be what you are determined by in the future. ie. He went there...so he probably...
- Don't settle for less. Do the full 90+ MDiv. You will need it if you ever decided to go back in the service as a chaplain. (a road I have walked)
- Do the best you can with the time and money you have. You wouldn't want a cheap rifle when you go to the battle field.
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How about a "Practical Degree" - Meaning, get to work evangelizing lost souls and preaching the Bible instead of wasting time and money getting a degree. It's a real shame churches have secularized themselves too much to the point of not hiring someone "if they don't have a degree." What are you looking to make? More money?
DAL [A]
Ps. Ask the first century Christians what degree they went for and they'll ask you: "What's a degree?" LOL
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Oh trust me Dal I agree here with your statement. I knew when I went for my BS in Religion I wasn't after money. However, sad to say I like taking classes. I have 5 more years to take classes while in the Army and they will pay for most of it. So I thought I'd utilize my benefits and study what I enjoy.
I have a buddy, best youth pastor I have ever met. No degree, and now he is struggling to find a ministry after returning from Europe where he served with no degree and did a great job. So yes, I agree I wish more would look at a persons heart and not their education.
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Kent said:
Liberty is a Baptist (Bible Baptist I think) school
Everett Headley said:Liberty is Southern Baptist.
Liberty is an independent Baptist University, officially unaffiliated with any denomination or outside organization. It was founded by Jerry Falwell, an independent Baptist.
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Shane Atkinson said:
Oh trust me Dal I agree here with your statement. I knew when I went for my BS in Religion I wasn't after money. However, sad to say I like taking classes. I have 5 more years to take classes while in the Army and they will pay for most of it. So I thought I'd utilize my benefits and study what I enjoy.
I have a buddy, best youth pastor I have ever met. No degree, and now he is struggling to find a ministry after returning from Europe where he served with no degree and did a great job. So yes, I agree I wish more would look at a persons heart and not their education.
Thanks for your mature response! It's greatly appreciated. Here's my suggestion (since the Army is paying): Why not get another degree on some short career for you to have under your belt in case it becomes hard to find a "Preaching" job. When the economy hit, a lot of us preachers had to either find support from other churches who would be willing to help or join "the work force" (secular job) and still continue to help the church. Trust me, having something else extra under your belt may save your ministry from losing a good man and your family from starvation. It'll also keep bill collector's out of sight. I strongly believe a preacher should know other "professions" so he can support himself and his family in times of need (bad economy).
DAL
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Shane Atkinson said:
However, sad to say I like taking classes.
That's a great reason to do it. I'm not a preacher, and have no plans to take a paid position with a church. I've been blessed with a solid professional career, unrelated to ministry, of more than thirty years. When my kids finished their college studies, I took the opportunity to enroll in an on-line MA program offered by an accredited seminary. I've always wanted to go back to school, just because I love to learn and there are more things that I want to know and understand. It's been everything I hoped it would be. Pick the program that's right for your and your ministry; I did a lot of research to find a program that made sense for me in my particular situation. I'm sure it will benefit the churches you serve in the future. But whether you go into ministry or not, if my experience is any guide, it will benefit you.
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David Thomas said:
most of the <60 hour programs include very little (nothing) nothing of the Biblical Languages.
Honestly what keeps me away from the M. Div mentally is I am scared of Hebrew/Greek text. I cross reference the language in Logos, but I am not so sure I can study it.
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Shane Atkinson said:David Thomas said:
most of the <60 hour programs include very little (nothing) nothing of the Biblical Languages.
Honestly what keeps me away from the M. Div mentally is I am scared of Hebrew/Greek text. I cross reference the language in Logos, but I am not so sure I can study it.
If you are diligent, you can learn the languages. Liberty, anyway, has an English Bible track. One of the best things an introduction to the languages can teach you is humility. Too many pulpits are filled by "Strong's Scholars" who say all sorts of fascinating things they think they know.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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Liberty is strongly linked with the SBC and it's culture and academia. See link below for a start.
As for saying a the church is secularization and that the first century had no degree, those are both half truths. Paul took years after his conversion to prepare. Jesus waited til he was 30 for public ministry. A piece of paper does not make a good pastor. But a degree will give you tools and sharpen others that you otherwise would not.
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I know this is off point, but concerning Liberty:
While the school originated from Independent Baptist roots with Jerry Fallwell and his church, both the church and the school are now associated with Southern Baptists.
In 1999 the school entered an agreement with SBC, (from the SBC Baptist Standard) "Although the agreement does not convey any financial support to the university, it does link the school as an affiliate of a state Baptist convention recognized by the SBC, as close as any college or university can get to being an SBC school. The SBC, as a national convention, owns no colleges or universities, only seminaries." Thus they are not 'owned' by SBC like the seminaries, but they are linked in a manner similar to Baylor University.
For what it is worth.
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Also, let me say don't let Greek and Hebrew intimidate you. I went back to seminary (DTS) at 45 and had to take 3 years of Greek and 2 years of Hebrew and did fine. Especially after life experience and with a personal desire to master the language of the Bible, I think you would find it not that difficult.
Also, let me say that even after 25 years of lay ministry and sermon/bible study experience, I found seminary invaluable. The key to ministry is being a life long learner. Not learning to get a job or more money - learning because I want to be the best vessel that I can be for Him. The older I get, the more inadequate I feel, and the more I have a desire to grow and learn. Did I say that at 57 I finished my D Min? Every moment valuable to my current ministry - none of it required by the church, and I'm too old to be in the job search market.
Just my thoughts.
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Shane Atkinson said:
Oh, and my BS is from Liberty and I will most likely stay there for my Masters unless I decide I need more than the 36 hours if so I will be looking at Dallas Theological Seminary.
Don't do your Masters credits through Liberty!!! You cannot transfer those credits to an ATS accredited seminary.
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Mark Groen said:
Don't do your Masters credits through Liberty!!! You cannot transfer those credits to an ATS accredited seminary.
Not familiar with ATS. I'll go research that now.
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Mark Groen said:Shane Atkinson said:
Oh, and my BS is from Liberty and I will most likely stay there for my Masters unless I decide I need more than the 36 hours if so I will be looking at Dallas Theological Seminary.
Don't do your Masters credits through Liberty!!! You cannot transfer those credits to an ATS accredited seminary.
This would only be an issue if he didn't complete his degree at Liberty. In my opinion, regional accreditation is the gold standard, not ATS accreditation. I'm actually surprised that many seminaries haven't dropped ATS all together.
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Shane Atkinson said:
Honestly what keeps me away from the M. Div mentally is I am scared of Hebrew/Greek text. I cross reference the language in Logos, but I am not so sure I can study it.
Shane, if you are set on Liberty that may not be a bad route to help you get over the language issue. A quick look at their courses show they have some introductory Greek in their seminary course guides
NGRK 505 - Greek Language Tools
NGRK 520 - Beginning Greek I
NGRK 525 - Beginning Greek II
NGRK 620 - Greek Syntax
NGRK 643 - Greek Exegesis: GalationsThese are all available for online students.
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Josh said:
This would only be an issue if he didn't complete his degree at Liberty. In my opinion, regional accreditation is the gold standard, not ATS accreditation. I'm actually surprised that many seminaries haven't dropped ATS all together.
If that is the last and/or only place he wants to get a degree. It would be awful to get a Masters degree, decide to get an MDiv, and then have to take the 36 credits over again at an ATS seminary.
Now that ATS allows online only MDiv's it would be really nice if Liberty tried to get ATS accrediting for their seminary. I took 12 credits at Liberty before I realized all of this and so I had to take church history, an NT class, and one other class again. It would have been really nice if Liberty would have explained fully the consequence of not being accredited by the ATS.
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In regards to the ATS..remember I knew nothing of this before last night. I quickly learned if it is an ATS school there is no way I can fully complete the M. Div online.
I did start looking at this plan, Liberty has a 36 hour MAT(BS) and those credits can be transferred up to "their" MAR or M.Div. This would allow me to complete the MAT(BS) free from the Army and all online. If I did desire to further that degree in the future because I wanted to or needed to I could but out of my pocket.
As for the ATS transfer of credits that would be a CON to the above thought.
Does ATS accreditation play a role in the ministry search? Do a lot of Churches look at your school to see if it is an ATS school or not?
Sorry to keep this going but I do not have a local mentor to talk this stuff through at the moment. He's currently deployed so all of your help is greatly appreciated.
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Kent said:
Shane, if you are set on Liberty that may not be a bad route to help you get over the language issue. A quick look at their courses show they have some introductory Greek in their seminary course guides
Thanks Kent, I'll look into this. Currently researching the languages to see what my comfort level is at the moment. I think I'd love to learn these.
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Shane Atkinson said:
Do a lot of Churches look at your school to see if it is an ATS school or not?
When asked that way, I think the answer is "no." Rather, churches look for candidates from certain seminaries (which may or may not be an ATS school).
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alabama24 said:Shane Atkinson said:
Do a lot of Churches look at your school to see if it is an ATS school or not?
When asked that way, I think the answer is "no." Rather, churches look for candidates from certain seminaries (which may or may not be an ATS school).
Ok thank you.
I think I have this narrowed down thanks to you all. I just need to pray on these two courses of action and see where I need to go. Both will be paid for by the Army. At the end of the day I am continuing my education because I like to learn not for more money or status. I do pray that when I retire from active duty I end up where God intended for me to be and not where I think I need to be.
Top Two Choices (open to more thoughts):
Liberty, Masters of Theology Biblical Studies (36 Hours). Non-ATS, Credits can transfer to a higher MAR or M. Div if desired internal to Liberty and other non-ATS schools. M.Div can be finished completely online.
Moody Bible Institute, MA Biblical Exposition (36 Hours). ATS school. Possible transfer of credits towards M.Div if desired.
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Hi Shane,
For what it's worth, I am in the military and pursuing an MDiv from Liberty University. I initially looked at the Masters of Theology Biblical Studies and almost went with it except when I started the Air Force didn't put a cap on Master's level tuition. I too was worried about the Greek but it's really not that bad. They have an English Bible Tract which has you take a Greek language tools class and then two New Testament Bible classes. The same goes for the Hebrew tract. I found the Greek language tools class challenging but not too difficult. I haven't taken the NT Bible classes but looking at the course syllabus it seems similar to what would have been taken during the Bachelor's program.
Eric
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I was looking at the prices of some online seminaries, and I have to say, with Liberty's block rate discount, you can literally get the price down to $170 per credit hour! That is simply amazing for a regionally accredited graduate degree. You can get a full 93 hour M.Div for under 16 grand in tuition fees. No wonder why thousands of seminarians are flocking there.
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Shane Atkinson said:
Currently researching the languages to see what my comfort level is at the moment. I think I'd love to learn these.
Thankful for Logos visual filter highlighting that can show range of Greek verbal expression in English, Greek, and Spanish resources with appropriate tagging. Logos Wiki has examples => https://wiki.logos.com/Extended_Tips_for_Highlighting_and_Visual_Filters#Examples_of_visual_filters
Greek has a greater range of verbal expression. Many English words are derived from Greek. Both English and Greek read from left to right.
Hebrew may be a bit more challenging when reading from right to left. The book of Lamentations has alphabetic verses, like several Psalms. English translation does not show the Hebrew alphabetic usage. Psalms 119 has sets of eight verses that begin with a Hebrew letter.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Shane Atkinson said:
In regards to the ATS..remember I knew nothing of this before last night. I quickly learned if it is an ATS school there is no way I can fully complete the M. Div online.
I did start looking at this plan, Liberty has a 36 hour MAT(BS) and those credits can be transferred up to "their" MAR or M.Div. This would allow me to complete the MAT(BS) free from the Army and all online. If I did desire to further that degree in the future because I wanted to or needed to I could but out of my pocket.
As for the ATS transfer of credits that would be a CON to the above thought.
Does ATS accreditation play a role in the ministry search? Do a lot of Churches look at your school to see if it is an ATS school or not?
Sorry to keep this going but I do not have a local mentor to talk this stuff through at the moment. He's currently deployed so all of your help is greatly appreciated.
ATS has recently (within the last 3 years) revised its standards so that online only M.Div is possible - See Moody Theological Seminary. Moody also does languages with a heavy logos-based approach to languages. When Moody Theological Seminary acquired Michigan Theological Seminary (it was ATS accredited) they aligned their programs with ATS standards.
Also, ATS accredidation can come into play if/when you consider D.Min programs.
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This is off topic, but Shane I am pretty sure you and I have been in class online together before. I recognized your name from discussion boards.
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They are now as of February 2020
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