Do you want every ebook in the world in Logos?

I need your advice.

Bottom Line: If we could offer every ebook Amazon offers, but only if we did offer every ebook Amazon offers, should we? And if so, how?

Background:

As more and more schools adopt Logos Bible Software as an essential tool for their students, we're getting request for an even broader range of books in the system.

Our users already want many books to which we don't have the rights, and we keep working to acquire them, but these are usually in or near biblical studies.

Schools see that Logos meets their needs for a biblical library really well -- and once they appreciate the power of the platform, they want that functionality available for all their classes. If students are going to use the Logos platform for biblical studies, why not English literature? Great -- we've got Noet. But what about the physics textbook? The chemistry book? The biography of Bob Dylan for the class on American pop culture?

It's impossible to predict what books we'll need, and the list is changing constantly. Moreover, many of the titles we would need to support a Christian college undergraduate program come from large secular publishers. They are set up to license their books 'all or nothing' in EPUB format, the way we get EPUB titles for Vyrso now. Preliminary conversations indicate that they are willing to license us their books, but not one at a time -- we can take the whole catalog, or not.

Now I love our platform, and would really like to use it for the history, biography, and business books I read on the Kindle (because we don't offer them). But these catalogs are huge -- and include a lot of books I don't want to be associated with.

We decided long ago that we will offer a broad library, and accepted that it would include a lot of heresy and error. That's the cost of being a library. And, at the Noet and Vyrso stores, you'll see we offer a wide variety of genres, including cookbooks. But these are either specifically chosen for academic study (Noet) or from Christian publishers (Vyrso).

What do we do with a publisher's catalog that includes everything from academic biography to erotic fiction? The same massive publisher that has Timothy Keller's Reason for God also publishes 50 Shades of Grey.

What if we can't license one without the other? Should we not take any of the titles then? Or should we create yet another ebook store where we put 'everything' without any particular Christian label or endorsement? Or should we use the Noet storefront for not just 'scholarly' books, but rather everything that isn't specifically from a Christian publisher (Vyrso) or useful for Bible study (Logos).

What do you think?

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Comments

Kendall Sholtess

Hi Bob,

In my opinion, I would rather do business with Faithlife than Amazon any day. It would be wonderful to have a much greater selection of books to choose from.

I also understand the feeling you have of not wanting to be associated with books like 50 Shades of Grey. I wouldn't want to be associated with it either.

But I think that the benefit of having Keller's Reason for God and other such resources outweighs the negative feelings I have for books I will never consider reading. I can't imagine someone wanting to index junk on their hard-drive. However, if people don't like it, they don't have to buy it. Most of the people who want to buy 50 Shades of Grey will be doing so from another retailer anyway.

If such a decision in favor is made, I feel that the best route is to create a separate store. I don't think the Noet customers would feel happy having their store swamped with non-scholarly literature.

The other option is to reinvent Vyrso. That would be ok with me.

I feel that in offering a greater selection would be healthy for Faithlife.

Thanks, Bob, for asking us. And thanks for all the hard work you guys are putting into this. God bless!

Sarel Slabbert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727360#Comment_727360

I think the ability to add Epub/Mobi formats as PBB would be great. Logos already work with Kindle, so buying books on Amazon (even with DRM rights) would present no problems. This way users can "create" their own library according to their needs from Logos and Amazon.

mike

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727360#Comment_727360

The sages said "don't let anyone tell you that you can't do it"...

But Jesus said "And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God"

and He also said, "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs"

I say, maybe secularism and compromise is coming..

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727360#Comment_727360

My inclination would be for separate stores for much the same reason I go to either a Christian bookstore, a University bookstore or a general bookstore -- and love to find small niche bookstores for children, cookbooks, mysteries ..... It is easier to find what one wants in a bookstore that is design for a specific type of books. Or if you don't like the model of separate stores think of Powells books in Portland which is a combination of separate sites and separate rooms for different subject areas.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727378#Comment_727378

I think the ability to add Epub/Mobi formats as PBB would be great.

This is not about putting functionality into Logos 6 to add arbitrary epub/mobi books. This is about publishers licensing their existing ebook catalog for Logos to resell in Logos format. You would not be able to buy an arbitrary title at Amazon.com and use it in Logos 6.

Sean Emslie

There are various books that I needed for my recent Masters in Pastoral Ministry that were not available on Logos or only available in large collections for $300, of which I only needed only one book for my class. I was able to get the Kindle version and make them into Personal Books for a few of them.

It would be great for Faithlife to make an agreement with Amazon to be able to easily turn a Kindle book into a Logos Resource. I am sure that you can create a program to do this. I did it with several programs on my own, with a license from Amazon it could be a one step process to choose a Kindle book to become a Logos Book. It would be great to have access to all the books available in Kindle for Logos but I do see the concerns of taking all of the books of secular presses, not that I see many Logos users buying 50 Shades of Grey for their Logos Library.

Sean

This is not an easy question to answer, and whatever answer you give, Bob, some are going to be unhappy with it. It's a difficult call. But I, for one, would love to see as many books in Logos as possible. I like Amazon & the wide range of titles it offers, but the Kindle apps are awful & nearly useless in comparison to Logos. If I could just shop through a Logos/Faithlife-affiliated store (MJ's thought is a good one) and never have to go to Amazon again for ebooks, I'd be very happy.

CuTOP

For me personally, I would love to have one platform and one library for all my digital books. I would love to have the power to search through all my books for illustrations, ideas, and the such. I am not bothered by having junk also available for purchase. I won't be buying it anyhow, but having access to great books otherwise unavailable would be a huge advantage.

And personal opinion, there is already plenty of "junk" on Vyrso anyhow. Christian publishers are not immune from publishing worthless or junky material. But that doesn't prevent me from enjoying Vyrso and purchasing the books that I would like to read or that I think would be useful in other ways.

Thanks for seeking to offer your customers choice and options.

Ben

Reuben Helmuth

What do we do with a publisher's catalog that includes everything from academic biography to erotic fiction? The same massive publisher that has Timothy Keller's Reason for God also publishes 50 Shades of Grey.

Wow! Tough call...

Avoiding my knee-jerk reaction of "stay away!", I would most like to see a separate store with rigorous filtering/sorting abilities. The homepage could make in very clear that this is a GENERAL bookstore and that Faithlife does NOT endorse all the books available. It would be nice if that store could remember my preferences to filter out all genreX, authorX, keywordX, and ect.X content.

Related to this...I've wished for a way to filter out certain genres on Vyrso rather than being limited to selecting the alternative ones, one at a time.

Will pray for you as you make these important and potentially far reaching decisions!

John Duffy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727396#Comment_727396

Avoiding my knee-jerk reaction of "stay away!", I would most like to see a separate store with rigorous filtering/sorting abilities. The homepage could make in very clear that this is a GENERAL bookstore and that Faithlife does NOT endorse all the books available. It would be nice if that store could remember my preferences to filter out all genreX, authorX, keywordX, and ect.X content.

Reuben, I think that filtering, which you have mentioned, is a positive way forward.

On occasions I have needed to purchase academic books on theology which would not be found on the shelves of a good Christian bookshop (I don't always agree with the theology of all the books I own either). I have had to go to Amazon to purchase them.

On the other hand, I greatly respect the fact that such bookshops only stock (or supply) such good Christian books, and I have confidence to be able to recommend others to just go in and know that whatever they come out with that it will be edifying.

Filtering good books (which is a variable definition, I know) has often been done physically in bookshops in town - they just don't put the books available from the publisher on the shelves of their shop. Filtering can also be achieved in online stores by other means, such as community ratings.

One way of filtering the massive listing which publishers offer, to make a storefront more like the 'good Christian bookshop' in town, might be through community rating of titles. If an option in our preferences on login to such an online store were to only display books which have already been rated above some threshold by a given number of users with Logos/Vyrso accounts (validated users who have actually purchased books), then the combined wisdom of Logos users could function in a similar way to the decision-making of the manager of the 'good Christian bookshop' in town. Different rating tags for different denominations could further refine people's choices too, and so on. As a starter, books which fall within certain categories might be given sufficiently high interim community ratings, which could be distinguished from actual community ratings which would build up over time. Users could be asked on signup whether they want to be shown all books, or only those rated sufficiently highly by the community, or choose to see displayed only books from within certain categories.

That way, all books can be offered, but the user and the community could do the filtering, not Bob.

Edit: I would also prefer such books to be made available through a different store front/website than Logos/Vyrso, though, even if my Logos account applied to that new store. Not sure if Noet might be the best channel for them either, as that runs Logos tagged resources. Another storefront might seem best for me.

Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727400#Comment_727400

Thank you, Bob, for asking our opinion. A couple thoughts:

Since you mention Amazon, it brings to the fore the difference between Logos Bible Software and the Kindle readers (on any platform), namely, Logos is not just a reader but a specialized study tool. Because of its close association with biblical studies, the tools are correspondingly adapted. To have the equivalent in subject matters such as physics or maths, one would imagine that there would need to be calculators, function drawing, etc. This cannot all be done in one software. In other words, if as a company, you expanded business to become more a general book provider, Logos Bible Software would not be the right tool for it. You might want to create a different reader for that, but then how would it be different from Kindle?

I agree with some of the previous posts that there is also the question of the company's identity. Becoming a distributor of shades of grey should not be a necessary condition for providing better access to Christian books. If some publishers try to impose the all or nothing approach, I would prefer personally that Logos retains a Christian distinctiveness even if it means less access. The intersection of ethics and business still matters to many of us.

A model that would be closer to the mark of broadening access to educational resources without swinging to the amazon model would be something along the lines of services like ebrary/proquest. The contents are strictly educational and academic. If you went that way, it would need a reader of its own (and a different branding than faithlife) and a feature that I requested before already, the ability for users to manage their resources so as to choose to have some in Logos desktop only, some in Noet only or Vyrso only (with the option to have some resources present in all platforms, something like the current devices setting in the resource info pane).

One last consideration, there have been concerns in the past that FL was trying to do too much and that quality had suffered for it. Though it does not need to be that way, the question arises as to what impact such a broadening of focus would have on the company's operation and for us longer term customers and our investments, whether it would -- even if you don't intend it -- result in a diluting of sort, a double-mindedness as it were when it comes to focus, and less resources/priority going to the current platform.

NB.Mick

Bottom Line: If we could offer every ebook Amazon offers, but only if we did offer every ebook Amazon offers, should we?

For me: clearly yes.

As to the how: I personally don't really mind if you would use Noet or Vyrso for this, but this would of course mean going back on the purpose statements etc. you have established for these. I don't know if you had e.g. ads in ChristianityToday describing Vyrso as "your Christian bookstore on the web" - if so, you wouldn't want people to visit the NewVyrso and getting not only confused but upset. If you clone the Vyrso store page and call it something else you avoid this. Since Noet never carried a decidedly Christian flag, you might as well use this, but currently I prefer the look and feel of Vyrso (familiarity only?).

I'd of course ask for a robust genre etc. selection (Vyrso has some of it already - too much like ownership, price, genre deselection is not in the UI but functional on URL level and should be made clickable to better facilitate drinking from the waterhose)

Stephen Steele

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727401#Comment_727401

If Faithlife wanted to make every ebook in the world available, that would be fine with me - as long as they were kept separate (Either in vyrso or in a new separate store).

I would be particularly keen for monographs from the likes of OUP or CUP which the publishers already offer in ebook formats but for which there may not be the demand to produce as individual Logos resources.

It would also be good if this new category of books followed the current pattern of books which start out in Vyrso/ebook format and then 'graduate' to Logos format.

Rayner

Bottom Line: If we could offer every ebook Amazon offers, but only if we did offer every ebook Amazon offers, should we? And if so, how?

Yes. In terms of "how", it would be good if there were opt outs e.g.that all were licensed, but not all actually could be bought. Failing that, a different Store front for different types of books sounds like a good suggestion.

One part of me quite likes the idea that even the profits from disreputable books would go into improving features for Logos. However, I can also see an issue with the fact that Christians disagree concerning what is considered disreputable. I suspect half of my Library (almost all of which is theology) might be consisted off limits to most Logos users!

In terms of falling down into the "licence all" or "licence some" camps, I'd fall firmly into "licence all", but package differently.

JC54

Well, I would say yes, but hesitantly.

Would this mean millions of books in Pre-pub? Of wich millions of books would never get out? Or would it mean that the majority of books would never have Logos functionality? I believe the Logos.com website should have only Logos-quality books and a reasonable percentage of books in pre-pub.

*second thought* Really, how much time and energy would all other books cost? Couldn't you just drop them on a website somewhere, where no-one is ever bothered by them?

*final thought* I really do not know, make a wise decision!

Fr Devin Roza

I need your advice.

Bottom Line: If we could offer every ebook Amazon offers, but only if we did offer every ebook Amazon offers, should we? And if so, how?

Edited - Am thinking more about this and will probably post later.

JimTowler

Bob,

You ask a most interesting question, and my initial answer is that yes, I’d like it if your company carried “everything” I might ever want to buy, borrow or rent.

My concerns however include the following kinds of angle:

Is your company, and hence my investment to date, better protected or more put at possible future risk if you went with the “All” option? My investment is best served if the company continues to exist for as long as I can still read or listen. (I know you know how to see if my library is $500 or $5000.)

Would some of the Christian publishers refuse or prefer to not have their titles sold by “EveryBook.com”?

As others already have commented, there is the whole focus and branding matter to also consider. Would you in fact draw the line at “50 Shades …” or maybe fiction by Penthouse? If there was a line, where do you draw it? Or do you do it the Amazon way and for the most part sell anything that is lawful and let the buyer chose to buy or not buy?

It would be important to continue to improve the tagging and collections ability within the client software. I would not want it to find “50 Shades …” if I was searching for all examples of [something] when I was wanting to plan a bible study outline. I also might not want the client software to keep offering me books about Genesis and Creation when I was studying for my biology exam. In much the same way I generally already don’t want to find all the Amish Romance novels when I’m currently searching for something about life in early Corinth.

Take the examples when people have returned the free Harvard Classics etc, as it makes the indexing and searching a pain. The solution is for people to have all the free ones, yet be able to have better control over the collections.

It would also be nice if I could have my 200 GB library on my Intel i9, 23 GHz PC at home, but only a 20 GB subset downloaded and indexed on my Microsoft Surface Pro 5. Right now we get a choice of all or all on our desktops, which does not fit on small portables so well.

In summary yes please – bring it on, but I need the company to continue so my investment to date and beyond is not at risk.

Thanks and Regards, Jim

Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727407#Comment_727407

Yes, although insofar as publishers are willing to let you opt out of morally offensive works

Or, is it possible to buy the rights to everything if it is the only way to gain access to the titles you really want, but only distribute some?

Kevin A Lewis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727414#Comment_727414

but only distribute some?

I suspect that is not an option - or Bob wouldn't have asked the question!

Shalom

Lynden O. Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727417#Comment_727417

My two cents:

1. Separate store.

2. Allow the user to select genre when searching and other categories when searching the store and seeing what is displayed on the store front.

3. The store remembers my preferences.

4. Allow me to choose what is downloaded in Logos and what is downloaded in the other app for all the other stuff.

5. I am hoping this option if you go this way, helps lower the cost of Logos books.

6. The quality of Logos books do not suffer.

7. New books from the "fire hydrant" are released on pre-pub for a short time and then published, probably without all the tagging of a Logos resource (too expensive).

Had to Google to find out what 50 shades of Gray is.

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727396#Comment_727396

What do we do with a publisher's catalog that includes everything from academic biography to erotic fiction? The same massive publisher that has Timothy Keller's Reason for God also publishes 50 Shades of Grey.

Wow! Tough call...

Avoiding my knee-jerk reaction of "stay away!", I would most like to see a separate store with rigorous filtering/sorting abilities. The homepage could make in very clear that this is a GENERAL bookstore and that Faithlife does NOT endorse all the books available. It would be nice if that store could remember my preferences to filter out all genreX, authorX, keywordX, and ect.X content.

This is a tough call but I like your approach to this Reuben. This decision is huge and comes with the potential of many potential benefits and pitfalls.

Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727427#Comment_727427

Had to Google to find out what 50 shades of Gray is.

Same for me, I bet you were sorry you found out. Nevertheless, it is a telling example of content one would want to avoid.

Robert Townsend

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727427#Comment_727427

Would it or could it still be called Logos Bible Software?

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727396#Comment_727396

Avoiding my knee-jerk reaction of "stay away!", I would most like to see a separate store with rigorous filtering/sorting abilities. The homepage could make in very clear that this is a GENERAL bookstore and that Faithlife does NOT endorse all the books available. It would be nice if that store could remember my preferences to filter out all genreX, authorX, keywordX, and ect.X content.

If you go this way, this would be my preference. However, I can't help but ask, "Would you be inviting the camel to stick his nose into the tent?"

David Taylor, Jr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727417#Comment_727417

I'll give a more thought out answer later but all the ebooks? No. I don't think we need Charlie and the Chocolate Factory etc... in Logos. However, I am all for expanding the Non-Fiction works, especially in the Theological realm.

I would like to see Logos start a campaign to go to colleges and universities to find what their textbook lists are and start actively obtaining those resources as a priority.

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727455#Comment_727455

I'll give a more thought out answer later but all the ebooks? No. I don't think we need Charlie and the Chocolate Factory etc... in Logos.

While even in this example some might want to differ, you should read Bob's post beyond the title.

But you picked a good example. Let's assume Faithlife discussed with Multnomah ( https://www.logos.com/products/search?Publisher=Multnomah - gives some well-known John Piper books ) about a contract renewal or enhancement. Now they say: "we want to go beyond managing single books or imprints to a group level. You can have Multnomah stuff in a contract for all our electronically published books, but only if you put all of them into the shop (and "our" is everything from Penguin Random House group)". This will bring lots of stuff in, but it also lets customers buy Dahl's Charlie.... since Puffin Books also belongs to the Penguin Random House group.

It's a win for Faithlife and for us, since we now can have books that were previously unavailable (possibly including Langenscheidt's dictionaries), and continue to have books available, since they don't do the Moody on us. And it's a win for Penguin Random House since you may be inclined to buy Charlie and the Chocolate Factory nevertheless when you see it in the store (or buy it here instead of on a large book retailer).

David Taylor, Jr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727465#Comment_727465

I'll give a more thought out answer later but all the ebooks? No. I don't think we need Charlie and the Chocolate Factory etc... in Logos.

While even in this example some might want to differ, you should read Bob's post beyond the title.

But you picked a good example. Let's assume Faithlife discussed with Multnomah ( https://www.logos.com/products/search?Publisher=Multnomah - gives some well-known John Piper books ) about a contract renewal or enhancement. Now they say: "we want to go beyond managing single books or imprints to a group level. You can have Multnomah stuff in a contract for all our electronically published books, but only if you put all of them into the shop (and "our" is everything from Penguin Random House group)". This will bring lots of stuff in, but it also lets customers buy Dahl's Charlie.... since Puffin Books also belongs to the Penguin Random House group.

It's a win for Faithlife and for us, since we now can have books that were previously unavailable (possibly including Langenscheidt's dictionaries), and continue to have books available, since they don't do the Moody on us. And it's a win for Penguin Random House since you may be inclined to buy Charlie and the Chocolate Factory nevertheless when you see it in the store (or buy it here instead of on a large book retailer).

This is a good point. I do think it would bloat an already not so easy to navigate store. Perhaps the two storefront option? Or better organization of current selections in preparation? I don't know.

HJ. van der Wal

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727407#Comment_727407

[quote]

Yes, although insofar as publishers are willing to let you opt out of morally offensive works, I would hope you would continue avoiding them. But I would certainly prefer having the entire Amazon universe available on the platform to not having it.

[Y]

Same for me, I bet you were sorry you found out. Nevertheless, it is a telling example of content one would want to avoid.

Sadly, in the area where I live this book is being sold just about everywhere. There even is a supermarket (just across the border in Germany) that has this book on display right next to children's storybooks. [:(]

David Taylor, Jr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727417#Comment_727417

With the example of the erotic fiction I would say has no place in logos.com. I will say if that ever made its way into the store I would cease using Logos on moral grounds. If that is a publisher's stance, I would say leave it on the table and walk away.

Kevin Maples

If we could offer every ebook Amazon offers, but only if we did offer every ebook Amazon offers, should we? And if so, how?

I believe the benefits of offering every book outweighs the negative of having to offer bad books. Here's how I would do it:

1. The resources need to be in a separate store. There's nothing wrong with selling books like Reason for God in Logos, Vyrso, and the separate store, but I wouldn't want to see 50 Shades of Grey in Vyrso or Logos and Noet's target audience wouldn't want to see it either. It should be fairly simple to duplicate the Vyrso platform with new name and graphics.

2. Although you will have to offer and sale 50 Shades of Grey, you do not have to promote it. So I would keep all promotions focused on clean books (I know that's subjective). I would be disappointed to see 50 Shades of Grey on a Freebie Friday promotion or on a front page banner.

3. I would create a robust sorting and searching engine. Make sure the books are correctly categorized down to the sub-genre, like Amazon, so that it's easy to find what you are looking for and avoid what you are not.

BTW: I would never buy a book from Amazon that was available from FL. So I hope to see you incorporate everything.

Bruce Roth

Bob,

I appreciate the continuing thoughts that you folks have about expanding the business model and how in most ways this is a benefit to most of us users. I think that a corporation that has a primary focus on providing Christian resources to it's user base is always challenged to see how it can grow it's customer base. I experienced this growing up with a father who owned a Christian bookstore but couldn't survive just selling Bibles and Christian books. One had to expand to other product lines such as gifts and such to make it work.

As to the 'all or nothing' from the publishers, this is a difficult one to come up with a good conclusion. Some thoughts.

1. Do the publishers force you to have their entire inventory that they have available in e-book format to be made available on your platform? Or can you choose? Sounds like not. I can see where they would relish another distribution platform outside of primarily Amazon or Nook.

2. How should a Christian business owner handle selling of materials that are contrary to their Biblical beliefs? For example if you own a drugstore in a small town that is also the source of magazines do you not sell certain magazines that are contrary to Biblical principles. I was once aware of a Christian store that did sell Playboy magazines along with the other magazines and was questioned about whether they should do that. I think this gets harder as the society tends to become more secular.

3. How would taking on all these new streams of resources impact the focus and efforts that are applied to the core business of supplying Biblical study resource material? Could something like this overtake the primary focus? I have heard that the sale of books which was the initial focus of Amazon now accounts for less than 10% of Amazon sales.

4. I would think it would be important to allow users to isolate books from each of the platforms if they desired. I might have 500 Kindle books that if I had bought them in Logos, I might want most of them kept distinct from my Logos library. Currently any Noet or Vyrso resource shows up in Logos.

5. A challenge that you currently have is that publishers or Amazon promote Kindle books at reduced prices that do not always migrate over to Faithlife. It is a challenge to think of; do I buy the Kindle book at $3.99 vs a higher price (usually) in the Logos platform. I understand the added value and cost for that option.

6. I am one who likes to have the greatest options available to me so I would like to have books available in Logos that I don't have now. But where do you draw the line as a focused business as to what you sell and promote? How big of a fence do you put up around your business? One could say that there are resources that you currently have that should not be part of your offerings. How narrow should we be as Christians in the business world? I don't see this getting any easier.

James C.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727471#Comment_727471

Yes, every book, just make a new store.

Glenn Crouch

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727360#Comment_727360

I agree with Kendall's reply [Y]

David Taylor, Jr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727471#Comment_727471

If we could offer every ebook Amazon offers, but only if we did offer every ebook Amazon offers, should we? And if so, how?
I believe the benefits of offering every book outweighs the negative of having to offer bad books. Here's how I would do it:
1. The resources need to be in a separate store. There's nothing wrong with selling books like Reason for God in Logos, Vyrso, and the separate store, but I wouldn't want to see 50 Shades of Grey in Vyrso or Logos and Noet's target audience wouldn't want to see it either. It should be fairly simple to duplicate the Vyrso platform with new name and graphics.

2. Although you will have to offer and sale 50 Shades of Grey, you do not have to promote it. So I would keep all promotions focused on clean books (I know that's subjective). I would be disappointed to see 50 Shades of Grey on a Freebie Friday promotion or on a front page banner.

3. I would create a robust sorting and searching engine. Make sure the books are correctly categorized down to the sub-genre, like Amazon, so that it's easy to find what you are looking for and avoid what you are not.

BTW: I would never buy a book from Amazon that was available from FL. So I hope to see you incorporate everything.

[Y]

Randy W. Sims

Definitely would like to see this.

I prefer a separate store, although I would like to see academic books in NOET, anything touching on Christianity in Logos/Verbum/Vyrso. Possibly tag books to indicate which store they are sold from.

The general store, I would prefer to be family friendly, something even non-christians should appreciate. If you can't ban unfriendly books, demand that publishers rate their books for family-friendliness. Then allow users to set the level of family-friendliness as a permanent user preference.

Joseph Turner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727486#Comment_727486

I also agree that it would be a good idea as long as there is a separate store.

It would also be cool if each resource had a check button, similar to the mobile device download check boxes, that would allow it to show up in Logos/Vyrso/Noet/New System/etc... That way, I could check each or all of the programs in which the resource will show. You could start this with each new resource, and do older resources as necessary. I don't know how much extra work this would entail, but it would certainly be helpful to keep books in whichever program I want them choose.

David Taylor, Jr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727486#Comment_727486

Definitely would like to see this.

I prefer a separate store, although I would like to see academic books in NOET, anything touching on Christianity in Logos/Verbum/Vyrso. Possibly tag books to indicate which store they are sold from.

The general store, I would prefer to be family friendly, something even non-christians should appreciate. If you can't ban unfriendly books, demand that publishers rate their books for family-friendliness. Then allow users to set the level of family-friendliness as a permanent user preference.

Almost like a parental control filter? I like that idea.

Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727490#Comment_727490

One of the storefronts we should call Whitewash Inc. and the second "Full of Dead Men's Bones" Ltd.

Doc B

If we could offer every ebook Amazon offers, but only if we did offer every ebook Amazon offers, should we?

I'll try not to become too verbose in my reply-

NO!!!!

David Taylor, Jr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727496#Comment_727496

If we could offer every ebook Amazon offers, but only if we did offer every ebook Amazon offers, should we?

I'll try not to become too verbose in my reply-

NO!!!!

This is still my overall response.

Kevin A Lewis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727496#Comment_727496

NO!!!!

I've been watching this debate grow for a few hours now - I didn't want to just answer out of "knee jerk" style.

However I think I am with Doc B on this - sometimes principles are just that - things to keep or break. If they are broken - they are broken. Whilst I appreciate the clamour for more titles, more content, more business - sometimes a line has to be drawn.

At the end of the day it is your decision, just bear in mind that it is not us you have to please - but our Father in Heaven. Simple commerce and nothing but are what is getting the western world in such a mess financially. The blessing of God is priceless and in my view has a direct connection (albeit subtle) to our earthly success.

I also appreciate you asking us - you need also to be asking Him - however I do think that you really know the answer.

Shalom.

JohnB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727427#Comment_727427

1. Separate store.

2. Allow the user to select genre when searching and other categories when searching the store and seeing what is displayed on the store front.

3. The store remembers my preferences.

7. New books from the "fire hydrant" are released on pre-pub for a short time and then published, probably without all the tagging of a Logos resource (too expensive).

Agreed

I would not have to keep buying books from Amazon hoping that Calibre will open them so I can PB them into Logos.

Since I buy books from Amazon now that Logos do not stock why would I not be willing not to buy from a separate FL site to the current ones?

Had to Google to find out what 50 shades of Gray is

[:D]

Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727507#Comment_727507

Since I buy books from Amazon now that Logos do not stock why would I not be willing not to buy from a separate FL site to the current ones?

For the same reason one would not want to see them in the church library even if one could just as much choose not to read them.

Matthew

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727504#Comment_727504

Without repeating the multiple good suggestions that have been made, my short answer is yes, go for it. One thought that has not been mentioned yet is that Faithlife might want to consider a way to allow customers to perform a "master search" that provides results from all the various affiliated websites. I do not want to have to separately browse to and search 5 websites to find out if Faithlife sells a particular work. The failure to implement such a tool could directly result in lost sales, especially from new customers who may not be familiar with the full spectrum of Faithlife storefronts. It is not a perfect analogy, but Roku makes it possible for users to watch TV/movies from Amazon, Hulu, and many other sources. If a user is looking for a particular title, a single search can be run that shows what all providers offer that title and for how much. Something similar would be nice for Faithlife, even if the company does not expand and create a new site. I would love to search Logos, Verbum, Vyrso, and Noet all at the same time!

Rick

As others have stated, I think that the stores need to be kept separate. I (and I assume many others) use Logos exclusively for Bible study. The last thing that I want to do is go into the Logos store and see a bunch of secular stuff and have to filter through it. I'm sure that with such a large amount of secular resources, some of it would simply be unacceptable for me. I will avoid browsing the store and be happy with what I already have if that becomes reality.

Also, please give us an option to keep the secular stuff off of our Logos home pages.

Tanner Thetford

Bob,

I am a resounding Yes on this topic. I want Logos to be my one stop shop library.

That said, I want the focus to overwhelmingly remain on biblical studies. If we can do both, that's great.

I like Noet as is, maybe something different for general things. Also, I'd really like to get the Mormon and Jehovah's Witness studies out of pre-pub at some point . . .

Charlene

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727504#Comment_727504

NO!

It would be nice to have all your reading and studying material on the same platform, but at what cost? Even if you set it up as another storefront, that doesn't remove your responsibility as a publisher. Are you willing to provide the entrance of a "brother" to obtain, let's say, certain erotica fiction and that would be the very instrument used by him to enter the world of pornography? Or perhaps other books would be offered that would cause a lost individual to go so deep in sin, that his conscience becomes seared and he no longer can respond to the gospel?

Yes, I understand that this is a business "opportunity" but you will still have to give an account of what you do as a businessman before the Lord. And yes, the individual is responsible for what he buys and the choices that he makes, but so is the publisher for making such books available. I would not want that on my conscience to know that I aided and abetted an individual concerning sin "opportunities." I pray that you make the right decision..

Jim Erwin

I liken this situation to Disney and its choice to start producing R-rated movies under the Touchstone label. This move was controversial at the time. However, it allowed Disney to expand and grow to be the large entertainment company that it is today. Most people don't think about it now. With Disney, they see Marvel, Pixar, and now Lucasfilm films. But it started with Touchstone.

This is how I see Logos now. Logos has its original brand geared to make family-friendly Christian Bible study and reading products and software. Vyrso expanded it to include more books outside of the Bible study genre. Noet includes the humanities. So either one creates another store and app for ebook reading, or one can fold it into another (probably Vyrso.)

As long as it just expands offerings and doesn't cut what you now produce, then it would be an excellent addition. I personally am always in favor of being in the world so that I can introduce people to Christ. As a church planter and pastor, we have used a secular storefront that meets a community need, while using it to introduce people to what really satisfies - Jesus Christ. I see the opportunity to use the entire secular Amazon library as a bookstore storefront where people get introduced to Jesus Christ.

Go for it!

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/727528#Comment_727528

What an interesting conundrum.

- Logos already sells what in earlier times would merit Bob being burned at the stake. But these days, it's for research. You know, the ones that prove the jewish priests invented the south Edom god now known as God. The Bible's somewhat of a fraud, etc.

- The Logos Christian dating went up in massive flames, I'm not sure why. Many a parent hopes for Christian spouses for their kids.

- And cloudy licenses were all the rage just months ago. Might take away from our precious investments.

- But Bob selling just about anything the Evil One can dream up .... well, OK. As long as it makes my Logos at bit more convenient. Sure.

Yes, I'm being sarcastic as usual.

SineNomine

Bottom Line: If we could offer every ebook Amazon offers, but only if we did offer every ebook Amazon offers, should we? And if so, how?

*In brief, no. Categorically no. I don't want erotica etc. to be sold by Faithlife, and I can't find any theological justification for what would amount to cooperation in evil acts by Faithlife distributing pornography.

However, there is a middle ground that you hint at. Certainly, license the whole catalogue of publishers that don't offer erotica. Yes, this cuts down on publishers, but Faithlife is a Christian company. Isn't it? Bob, if I were you, my conscience would be forever under assault if I was selling pornographic ebooks. And rightly so.

*I've only read some of the preceding posts.