Do you want every ebook in the world in Logos?
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I would be interested to know how many people on this forum would refuse to buy books published by a publisher that also publishes erotica.
Also how many will never buy books from Amazon, B & N, etc because they also sell erotica.
Or how many refuse to buy books from book shops that also sell erotica.
Just a thought.
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Some thoughts (if you get this far in the thread! [:P])
- There ARE books I want in my library which don't fall into the Logos/Vyrso/Noet "boxes." For me, THE single selling factor of the Logos system is the integrated search library. ANY book which I might want to use in speaking or teaching (including ministry, cub scouts, Toastmasters, etc.) I would want in my library.
- I DON'T wan't every book I own in my Logos library. I have over 6,000 books in Logos and about 1,000 on Kindle (many for free - $2). I am hesitant to buy any book on Kindle that I would want in Logos, and I am hesitant to buy any book in Logos/Vyrso which I wouldn't want in my library. I would not want a Louis L'amour book in my Library. I would want To Kill A Mockingbird.
- I DON'T want the Logos or Vyrso stores ruined. Being able to pick up more titles in Vyrso would be great. I don't think Vyrso should become the Bizzaro Kindle store. I would love if it meant we could pick up more titles which fit in the current Vyrso box.
- I would be in favor of this possibility IF:
- A new store were created
- The Logos and Vyrso stores won't be disrupted (resources pulled from those efforts)
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Interesting observation.
If there were clearly available options to buy from the "ethical" supplier - I would.
Primarily though the burden would surely be on the purchaser of the "dodgy" content and the purveyor of the dodgy content - that latter in this case would be Faithlife. The people asking the questions here are those responsible for decision making in the potential purveyor (i.e. Faithlife and Bob himself).
hmm - never easy is it - life in the here and now!
Shalom
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I suspect I'm in the minority here, but I would much prefer you NOT provide vast resources from all genres, for basically two reasons.
First, it is just my particular feeling that the packages you offer now are significantly too vast in wide ranging areas. So, if you sell a package that has the 20 scholarly original language books I need, I have to pay thousands of dollars for 15,000 books I don't need, don't want, and will never use. As a Pastor, I'm often asked about Bible software I would recommend. It's very difficult for me to recommend my Deacon pay $3,000 to get a great package, of maybe 40-50 books he might read at some point, while having to pay for 9,950 books he'd never use. Making more books that are unrelated to Bible Study available to users doesn't necessarily increase this trend, I'm fairly certain it ultimately would.
Second, the more Logos Bible Software tries to be all things to all people, the more watered down it will be in doing what I see as it's primary objective, that of studying Scripture and Scriptural resources. This topic comes up on this forum a lot.
A while back, someone noted that they searched and searched their Logos library for a type of information, but didn't find it. Later, they did a Google search, and found it instantly. Many responses followed about how Logos could do this and that differently, including a feature that searches the web. I don't understand this thinking. Why would we want you to try to reinvent Google? They do that well. In all honesty, I don't know why people would want you to compete with Amazon for pure reading material. Amazon does it really well. I do appreciate that Logos allows me to send some of the more "reading" oriented stuff in Logos to my Kindle, so that I can read it there. However, I would much rather have not had to buy that stuff with a Logos package, and just pick it up really cheaply on Amazon, or a variety of other sources.
I'm almost certain to be in the minority with this view, but I do appreciate you asking the question, giving us the opportunity to express our opinions.
Al
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David Taylor Jr said:
With the example of the erotic fiction I would say has no place in logos.com. I will say if that ever made its way into the store I would cease using Logos on moral grounds.
I'd like to explore this further.
- First, in no way do I agree or want to support anything that is evil or contrary to Scripture.
- But, is the opportunity to access inappropriate material the baseline on setting our moral grounds? If it were, anyone wishing to live a godly life could not justify having access to the internet because there is much potential for accessing inappropriate material. Instead, most of us view the internet as a medium which is also the case with any bookstore. The internet and bookstores have sections that I don't ever want to visit but it also has the potential for much good. It just needs to be used correctly.
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The internet also doesn't offer itself as a faith-based institution. Faithlife may be a business, but it is also a faith-based institution. If they don't want to be (and I am not saying they don't this is hypothetical) then they need to change the company name.Bruce Dunning said:David Taylor Jr said:With the example of the erotic fiction I would say has no place in logos.com. I will say if that ever made its way into the store I would cease using Logos on moral grounds.
I'd like to explore this further.
- First, in no way do I agree or want to support anything that is evil or contrary to Scripture.
- But, is the opportunity to access inappropriate material the baseline on setting our moral grounds? If it were, anyone wishing to live a godly life could not justify having access to the internet because there is much potential for accessing inappropriate material. Instead, most of us view the internet as a medium which is also the case with any bookstore. The internet and bookstores have sections that I don't ever want to visit but it also has the potential for much good. It just needs to be used correctly.
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Al Het said:
First, it is just my particular feeling that the packages you offer now are significantly too vast in wide ranging areas.
This has absolutely nothing to do with base packages... or even "Logos edition" resources.
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Bob - Let me revise my tentative "yes", to an unequivocal "no."
I was thinking about this from a consumer point of view. I still shop at B&N even though they sell things I find objectionable. If the local "christian" book store started selling some of that stuff, it would give me more reasons not to shop there. If I owned a bookstore, there are some lines I would never cross. This would eliminate that line entirely.
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No. There is some appeal, in concept, to having any and all books available in one place. But I believe it would over time dilute and eventually fundamentally change the focus of FaithLife.
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2Cor 6.14-17
When I encounter such dilemmas in my life, I run this test:
Would God be happy with me selling erotic fiction?
I know He wouldn't be.
I really don't want Logos to go into such direction. For me it would mean Logos choosing the world instead of the gospel. I don't want Logos to lose the blessing it has.
I am actually really sad that so many people here think it's OK for a Christian to sell dirt, as long as it is not promoted or sold on a store with a non-Christian name. If we compromise ourselves on such small things, what happens when a real test comes??
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I seem to be missing something ... I have read through each post so far ... and in particular Bob's initial post ... and it seems to have left me feeling with a sickening fear feeling in my stomach .. the fear of FL not being in business in two years time, this feels like another need to find a cash flow from somewhere, but it does not seem to have any natural symbiotic relationships, and as such it just feels like a potential black hole... (setting aside the moral case already made)
What does each party bring to the table?
Why does Amazon (or whoever) need Faithlife? What will FL add to Amazon resources? Unless resources are significantly tagged etc. the FL engine is little more than the kindle app ... read/bookmark/annotate. If the books are tagged ... who is going to do the tagging? At what cost (financial and opportunity)? Who would pay the premium needed in such tagging? If the same book is available from Amazon for a lower price then who would choose the FL version (other than the existing FL user base)? If this is targeted at the existing FL user base ... it feels as if our eyes are bigger than our belly. Why do we need these books in our library? Will we read them? We are talking many, many books to choose from. Who has the time? If these new resources do not integrate well into our existing libraries then why should we not consider them to be both a separate storefront and an entirely separate library, with an entirely separate app (lets call the new App 'Kindle'!).
Why does FL need Amazon? This is a shorter paragraph! I cannot think of a reason ... unless Amazon have a hold on certain publishers?
Bob Pritchett said:Schools see that Logos meets their needs for a biblical library really well -- and once they appreciate the power of the platform, they want that functionality available for all their classes. If students are going to use the Logos platform for biblical studies, why not English literature? Great -- we've got Noet. But what about the physics textbook? The chemistry book? The biography of Bob Dylan for the class on American pop culture?
I have quoted this because it is the one paragraph that I struggled with. Starting with licensing, schools would be expecting students to buy the licenses individually? Then why would the students choose FL over Amazon? Which schools? I understand that the word English use of the word 'School' is different to the American. I assume that we are talking degree level studies, where student do much independent research, needs cross references etc. will build up a library beyond this year's textbook for this particular subject? If we are talking about 'the power of the platform' then we are back to expensive tagging and premium prices. Who are we talking about as the target audience without extensive and expensive tagging? What subjects actually use as much theological cross referencing as Theology where we have scripture as the spine linking everything together?
I cannot see the business logic behind FL trying to be a general bookstore. I can see FL as a specialist bookstore with a unique platform ... but then I do not see them marketing that outside to their existing user base. Almost nobody I have ever met in the last 10 years has used the the Logos software, or even heard of it ... there is a huge untapped market where FL has an advantage ... As it is, and as I start of in saying, this just feels like a black hole project big enough to swallow FL whole.
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Bob,
The fact that so many users posted thoughtful responses is an indication of how emotionally invested your user base is. The extent that these responses often come both from the head and from the heart is a strong indication that, no matter what you decide, some folks will be angry or disappointed or discouraged or indignant or whatever. You're anticipating that.
So here's my take:
I use Logos for my Bible study and, to a limited extent, my studies in the classics. It's well built for literary studies. It seems less suited for doing studies in fields like music, physics, math, computer science, etc. I've used learning tools in these subjects that enhanced my consumption of those types of books. From my perspective as a buyer, I would have little incentive to read any of these in Logos.
Furthermore, since it's my study tool, I don't read any fiction from within Logos. Not that I can't, but reading even a great book like Great Expectations in Logos is like eating a Big Mac in an opulent dining room: as good as they both are, there's a whole lot of cool in the dining room that has bearing on a burger.
Having said that, you can offer all kinds of stuff -- and I wouldn't have a problem with that -- but I would have no reason to buy it for my Logos library.
Thanks for listening to all your amazingly diverse users!
Lew
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Bob Pritchett said:
What do you think?
My initial reaction is to say a resounding YES!!! (with a few clarifications) But it doesn't seem to be that easy. Let me explain.
Benefits:
- From a business perspective, Faithlife is strategically positioned to consider this type of opportunity.
- I honestly think that with the existing technologies behind Faithlife, they could put the Kindle store out of business lol. Seriously, the reading experience (highlighting, notes, integration, search, etc. etc.) behind Logos software puts Kindle to shame.
- The high amounts of revenue this would bring to Faithlife would ensure the future stability of this company.
- The Logos/Vyrso/etc. branches of Faithlife could benefit from this huge influx of income.
Concerns:
- The Christian mission and focus of Logos/Faithlife might be lost due to the money and volume of books involved in general.
- This new undertaking would suck crucial resources away from Logos.
- Would the leaders of Faithlife have a clear conscience selling secular books to secular people in order to fund God's work? This seems like a morally ethical question that only they can answer.
Solution:
- I would say, if you can figure out how to do it and be clear in your conscience, launch a totally new store, and most people (the secular world) won't have to know or care necessarily that Faithlife is behind it all with other Christian products and services.
- If Faithlife can designate a brand new team to do this instead of pulling from it's existing team, or maybe think of it like church planting (maybe pull a few key people away and fill in the gaps on both ends with new people.), then the other Faithlife branches won't suffer.
- You know how when you buy a book with Faithlife now, you can decide which devices to send that book to and in which apps? Well this functionality could be key. During the checkout process even, the customer could decide which apps they want that resource to show up in, and maybe even some suggestions could pre-populate based on book genre, tags, etc. That way customers would never see a secular book in Logos unless they chose to, or vice versa. I'm all about putting the customer in control. It's usually the only way to make everyone happy.
A parting thought/question: Is there any way to agree with publishers only to license non-fiction books? It seems if the primary target is universities/colleges, almost all the books that will be required will be non-fiction although I suppose that's not entirely true. Even Vyrso has many novels and fiction titles already, so it seems like already that line has been blurred. But this approach, if you could get the other companies to agree to it, could potentially eliminate a huge majority of moral and ethical dilemmas.
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Tim Taylor said:
You know how when you buy a book with Faithlife now, you can decide which devices to send that book to and in which apps? Well this functionality could be key. During the checkout process even, the customer could decide which apps they want that resource to show up in, and maybe even some suggestions could pre-populate based on book genre, tags, etc. That way customers would never see a secular book in Logos unless they chose to, or vice versa
To clarify this - at the moment all books purchased are visible in all the Logos applications. This control only determines to which mobile apps the resources are downloaded. Irrespective of that they are all visible in the mobile apps and are downloaded to the desktop ones.
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Martin Folley said:
I seem to be missing something ... I have read through each post so far ... and in particular Bob's initial post ... and it seems to have left me feeling with a sickening fear feeling in my stomach .. the fear of FL not being in business in two years time, this feels like another need to find a cash flow from somewhere, but it does not seem to have any natural symbiotic relationships, and as such it just feels like a potential black hole...
Martin,
it seems we read two different threads here... I don't read Bob as wanting to become small Amazon or going bankrupt - nothing could be further from what I understood. I see many many threads where we ask Faithlife for theological books that are on target in the Faithlife universe, but where no movement is made. I see Bob as trying to give us the books we always wanted, not selling us stuff we don't want. And it's great to hear that publishers are willing to licence their complete catalogue to Logos.
We have heard in the past that Faithlife makes much less profit on Vyrso than on Logos - but some publishers are only willing to sell on Vyrso. Others not even that - but if they come aboard when Faithlife takes all their other stuff, then this is 100% on target.
Mick
Have joy in the Lord!
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Graham Criddle said:Tim Taylor said:
You know how when you buy a book with Faithlife now, you can decide which devices to send that book to and in which apps? Well this functionality could be key. During the checkout process even, the customer could decide which apps they want that resource to show up in, and maybe even some suggestions could pre-populate based on book genre, tags, etc. That way customers would never see a secular book in Logos unless they chose to, or vice versa
To clarify this - at the moment all books purchased are visible in all the Logos applications. This control only determines to which mobile apps the resources are downloaded. Irrespective of that they are all visible in the mobile apps and are downloaded to the desktop ones.
Thanks for the clarification, Graham. I guess then I would use this existing feature as a model that could be expanded to determine not just what books are downloaded into what mobile apps, but what books actually appear in what apps (both mobile and non-mobile) libraries to begin with.
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That is what I was trying to get across. You did it better. [Y]alabama24 said:Bob - Let me revise my tentative "yes", to an unequivocal "no."
I was thinking about this from a consumer point of view. I still shop at B&N even though they sell things I find objectionable. If the local "christian" book store started selling some of that stuff, it would give me more reasons not to shop there. If I owned a bookstore, there are some lines I would never cross. This would eliminate that line entirely.
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Would I like every Christian book in the world in Logos? YES
Would I like other literature, non-fiction in Logos? Maybe, it couldn't hurt
Would it be ok If these perks meant Logos had to sell things like erotic fiction? NO. It's compromising, pure and simple. Don't do that. Maintain control over your catalog so that you can be proud of what you sell.
Author of the Chronological Word Truth Life Bible Series
WordTruthLifeBible.com
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I have a question for all those who've posted here and said, "NO!" Have you ever bought a book from Amazon? Yes?? You do realize that Amazon sells 50 Shades, don't you? Please explain why it is okay for you to do business with Amazon, or B&N, or whomever, but not Bob.
Bob Pritchett said:What if we can't license one without the other? Should we not take any of the titles then? Or should we create yet another ebook store where we put 'everything' without any particular Christian label or endorsement?
Yes, if you can keep Bible-related materials separate, then do it. Keep Vyrso as a Christian-related, non-Logos-ready epub market, just as it is now. Keep Noet as a scholarly, educational platform. Separate out whatever else you desire however you desire, but put it all in a different pot. The greatest problem I see is including this under the "Faithlife" umbrella. I think it would be better to put these things in a different pot altogether, and if you feel the need include it all under an ever bigger umbrella that isn't marketed with religious sentiments...Bobco, for instance...do it.
For the hand-wringers, if you haven't answered those first couple of questions, please do so. And while we wait, let's review a few things. When Heiyleil sinned and become hassaataan, why did YHWH drop the ball? Forget all the rigmarole in the garden--He could have snuffed out the whole problem right there on the spot by snuffing out the Problem. But He didn't. In fact, He did something else altogether...
Deut. 30:19.
Now, He could have "stepped up" and "intervened" even before Adam and Eve drew breath and eliminated the potential for disturbance, but He allowed the serpent into the garden instead...because He allowed a serpent. He did the exact same thing when He deliberately introduced Job's name into a conversation I'm quite sure he wanted no part of. See, our calling is not just to flee the enemy, but face him down...Prov. 26:4, 5.
What's my point? Basically, YHWH's point...He set before us blessing and cursing. Why? So that we could, and hopefully will CHOOSE life. Get this point...YHWH is both pro-choice and pro-life. Some will come into contact with cursing and choose death. Whose fault is that? Apparently, some of you think the answer is Bob. It is not.
As long as the two are not in the same pot, I don't see the problem.
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For the same reason that I would go to a restaurant that serves homosexuals, but I would not go to a church that accepts them into their membership.David Paul said:I have a question for all those who've posted here and said, "NO!" Have you ever bought a book from Amazon? Yes?? You do realize that Amazon sells 50 Shades, don't you? Please explain why it is okay for you to do business with Amazon, or B&N, or whomever, but not Bob.
Bob Pritchett said:What if we can't license one without the other? Should we not take any of the titles then? Or should we create yet another ebook store where we put 'everything' without any particular Christian label or endorsement?
Yes, if you can keep Bible-related materials separate, then do it. Keep Vyrso as a Christian-related, non-Logos ready epub market, just as it is now. Keep Noet as a scholarly, educational platform. Separate out whatever else you desire however you desire, but put it all in a different pot. The greatest problem I see is including this under the "Faithlife" umbrella. I think it would be better to put these things in a different pot altogether, and if you feel the need include it all under an ever bigger umbrella that isn't marketed with religious sentiments...Bobco, for instance...do it.
For the hand-wringers, if you haven't answered those first couple of questions, please do so. And while we wait, let's review a few things. When Heiyleil sinned and become hassaataan, why did YHWH drop the ball? Forget all the rigmarole in the garden--He could have snuffed out the whole problem right there on the spot by snuffing out the Problem. But He didn't. In fact, He did something else altogether...
Now, He could have "stepped up" and "intervened" even before Adam and Eve drew breath and eliminated the potential for disturbance, but He allowed the serpent into the garden instead...because He allowed a serpent. He did the exact same thing when He deliberately introduced Job's name into a conversation I'm quite sure he wanted no part of. See, our calling is not just to flee the enemy, but face him down...Prov. 26:4, 5.
What's my point? Basically, YHWH's point...He set before us blessing and cursing. Why? So that we could, and hopefully will CHOOSE life. Get this point...YHWH is both pro-choice and pro-life. Some will come into contact with cursing and choose death. Whose fault is that? Apparently, some of you think the answer is Bob. It is not.
As long as the two are not in the same pot, I don't see the problem.
(Please do not turn this comment into a debate. I was ONLY to show the viewpoint. Any argument about my post itself should go to www.christiandiscourse.com)
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David Taylor Jr said:
For the same reason that I would go to a restaurant that serves homosexuals, but I would not go to a church that accepts them into their membership.
I didn't realize Bob was a church you attended. Are you a Bobbite or a Bobbian?
Offering the other stuff under a different banner is serving homosexuals in their restaurant. Deut. 14:21.
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David Paul said:
I have a question for all those who've posted here and said, "NO!" Have you ever bought a book from Amazon? Yes?? You do realize that Amazon sells 50 Shades, don't you? Please explain why it is okay for you to do business with Amazon, or B&N, or whomever, but not Bob.
Saying "NO!" doesn't mean someone wouldn't do business with Bob. I said "yes" to begin with, but changed my answer to "no." Originally I was thinking about the issue as a consumer. Yes, I buy things from Amazon, B&N, etc. and know they sell this stuff. However, when I thought about it from the other perspective, my thinking changed. Forget "50 shades" (which is just a novel, after all). Bob would have to sell actual pornography. I would never cross that line and would rather close shop than to do so. When I thought about it from this perspective, my answer to bob is "no."
By the way, your answer is inconsistent:
David Paul said:As long as the two are not in the same pot, I don't see the problem.
David Paul said:He set before us blessing and cursing. Why? So that we could, and hopefully will CHOOSE life. Get this point...YHWH is both pro-choice and pro-life. Some will come into contact with cursing and choose death. Whose fault is that? Apparently, some of you think the answer is Bob. It is not.
Based on your thinking, shouldn't they all be in the same pot?
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The point was a secular institution vs. a faith based institution.David Paul said:David Taylor Jr said:For the same reason that I would go to a restaurant that serves homosexuals, but I would not go to a church that accepts them into their membership.
I didn't realize Bob was a church you attended. Are you a Bobbite or a Bobbian?
Offering the other stuff under a different banner is serving homosexuals in their restaurant. Deut. 14:21.
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I think you should go for it but add 6 zeros to the price of all the bad stuff... We get all the books we want and you never sell bad stuff except to incredibly stupid billionaires;)
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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Bob,
One thing that I hadn't considered before but you say that some publishers require you to license all their ebooks, but does this require you to offer for sale all their ebooks? If you are not required to sell all the books that you license then much of the moral issue is done away with you can just exclude offensive genres or notorious publisher imprints. You would in essence pay a fee for 50 Shades of Grey in your licensing all ebooks from the publisher but the not sell it, in essence taking a "loss" on the offensive books that you do not offer for sale, yet making available many more resources to the Logos users.I do believe that their should be a separate store for these books along with Logos for scholarly Bible/Theology books, Vyrso for popular Christian books and Noet for secular scholarly books and add a 4th store for the others.
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Logos already offers books that group A finds heretical (we are all in group A and if you don't find something objectionable I promise you are not looking hard enough)... While I have no wish to see Logos turn into someones favourite erotica reader but it could end up leading that person to God in the end. If most secular books were offered through the Vyrso platform one could easily go to verbum.com or logos.com and still find their Christian book store. Personally I would love to get a message like "Logos did not find the book you are looking for, would you like to check Vyrso" Because more than a few times I have gone looking for a book in Logos thinking they did not offer it and been delighted to find the book was in Vyrso.
YES YES YES.
This would be a bold move but a move I hope you make.
-Dan
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David Paul said:
an ever bigger umbrella that isn't marketed with religious sentiments...Bobco, for instance...
And what about Libby??
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Thank you, everyone, for the thoughtful feedback.
Just some notes which may help... if we do 'license everything' these books will come as EPUBs through an automatic feed, like the Vyrso titles. (Logos.com and Noet.com sell 'Logos Editions', which we hand tag and build with extra functionality. Vyrso.com sells 'eBooks' which are automatically derived from the publisher-provided EPUBs, resulting in less tagging, sometimes different formatting, etc.)
There isn't a significant cost to taking in more EPUBs -- all of the publishers involved have automated 'feeds' which release new titles to the distributors; these feeds point to the EPUB files, contain the pricing and descriptive metadata, etc. It's all standardized and automated, to handle (between the publishers) hundreds of thousands (millions?) of titles. This is one of the reasons it's 'all of nothing' -- no one has the time to mess with individual titles (some of which might only sell a few units a year, if any). They just want to treat it as an automated process.
(And, in the cases we're discussing, there is a contractual requirement to offer the whole catalog -- something that's typical in this kind of large scale distribution.)
And, in a way, that's easier on our end, too -- if a publisher has 10,000+ titles available in EPUB format, we don't know what's what, and don't have time to read and evaluate 10,000 books. We wouldn't be putting these things on pre-pub, wouldn't be marketing them individually, etc. -- we'd just be 'taking the feed' and automatically putting them online.
We could still call out a specific title for more and better tagging -- like Keller's Reason for God -- and 'promote' it to a Logos Edition, but for the most part we wouldn't be evaluating books on a case-by-case basis -- the catalog would be like Amazon's, fed every night by automated processes from the publishers' servers.
And finally, for what it's worth, we wouldn't be making much from this at all -- even Vyrso isn't much of a money-maker. It's just a way to expand what we offer so that if you (or a particular class) need this specific book, we have it.
I know it's hard to see how a calculus book gets much from being in Logos format, and I agree. But I like our reader, and our markup tools, and wish I could use it even to read a popular history book. And our users -- both individuals and professors in seminaries and Bible colleges -- ask for all kinds of titles both in biblical studies and general press, and I'd like to be able offer them. ("The Reason for God" is a good example -- I liked it enough to buy 10 copies to give away. But I had to do that with paper, not Logos format, because we don't have it. I imagine there are some professors teaching apologetics courses -- and individual users -- who would like to have it in our system, too.)
If we do create another store front, it can be kept completely out of Logos.com and Vyrso.com (and Noet.com). Your library would only show books you search for, and you could choose when you wanted to visit that site to look for a specific book. We could promote any title we wanted from that store into Logos.com or Vyrso.com, making Vyrso a much larger store of Christian titles, but leaving 'everything' available at the new store.
I am reluctant to have yet another brand / product, but I suppose we could just name a store front and still use Noet or Vyrso as the mobile app...? Or maybe we should brand another suite of apps?
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I would be quite supportive of a secular version of Vyrso.com, with three provisos:
- Entirely separate branding.
- It makes a net contribution to Faithlife.
- Your contracts allow us to send these books to Kindle.
Like most people on here I read secular books. I would prefer them in Logos format, even if all I do is send them to Kindle.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Bob Pritchett said:
We could still call out a specific title for more and better tagging -- like Keller's Reason for God -- and 'promote' it to a Logos Edition, but for the most part we wouldn't be evaluating books on a case-by-case basis -- the catalog would be like Amazon's, fed every night by automated processes from the publishers' servers.
If this can be done at FL's discretion, this is a HUGE plus for Logos.
Bob Pritchett said:If we do create another store front, it can be kept completely out of Logos.com and Vyrso.com (and Noet.com). Your library would only show books you search for, and you could choose when you wanted to visit that site to look for a specific book. We could promote any title we wanted from that store into Logos.com or Vyrso.com, making Vyrso a much larger store of Christian titles, but leaving 'everything' available at the new store.
I am reluctant to have yet another brand / product, but I suppose we could just name a store front and still use Noet or Vyrso as the mobile app...? Or maybe we should brand another suite of apps?
I don't use apps, so I have no input there, but this definitely requires a new brand, which is logical since this is a new thing. Do it right, keep the chaff separate from the wheat, and go for it!
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Thanks for the insights Bob. As far as the app part, there are some books on Vyrso I refuse to buy simply because I don't want them to show up in my apps. A way to decide what is in what apps (I'm sorry Hiding is a terrible solution) would be in order. Or a different app altogether. That being said, if it isn't that much of a money maker, I would say bite the bullet and take the losses of not having specific books rather than compromise.Bob Pritchett said:Thank you, everyone, for the thoughtful feedback.
Just some notes which may help... if we do 'license everything' these books will come as EPUBs through an automatic feed, like the Vyrso titles. (Logos.com and Noet.com sell 'Logos Editions', which we hand tag and build with extra functionality. Vyrso.com sells 'eBooks' which are automatically derived from the publisher-provided EPUBs, resulting in less tagging, sometimes different formatting, etc.)
There isn't a significant cost to taking in more EPUBs -- all of the publishers involved have automated 'feeds' which release new titles to the distributors; these feeds point to the EPUB files, contain the pricing and descriptive metadata, etc. It's all standardized and automated, to handle (between the publishers) hundreds of thousands (millions?) of titles. This is one of the reasons it's 'all of nothing' -- no one has the time to mess with individual titles (some of which might only sell a few units a year, if any). They just want to treat it as an automated process.
(And, in the cases we're discussing, there is a contractual requirement to offer the whole catalog -- something that's typical in this kind of large scale distribution.)
And, in a way, that's easier on our end, too -- if a publisher has 10,000+ titles available in EPUB format, we don't know what's what, and don't have time to read and evaluate 10,000 books. We wouldn't be putting these things on pre-pub, wouldn't be marketing them individually, etc. -- we'd just be 'taking the feed' and automatically putting them online.
We could still call out a specific title for more and better tagging -- like Keller's Reason for God -- and 'promote' it to a Logos Edition, but for the most part we wouldn't be evaluating books on a case-by-case basis -- the catalog would be like Amazon's, fed every night by automated processes from the publishers' servers.
And finally, for what it's worth, we wouldn't be making much from this at all -- even Vyrso isn't much of a money-maker. It's just a way to expand what we offer so that if you (or a particular class) need this specific book, we have it.
I know it's hard to see how a calculus book gets much from being in Logos format, and I agree. But I like our reader, and our markup tools, and wish I could use it even to read a popular history book. And our users -- both individuals and professors in seminaries and Bible colleges -- ask for all kinds of titles both in biblical studies and general press, and I'd like to be able offer them. ("The Reason for God" is a good example -- I liked it enough to buy 10 copies to give away. But I had to do that with paper, not Logos format, because we don't have it. I imagine there are some professors teaching apologetics courses -- and individual users -- who would like to have it in our system, too.)
If we do create another store front, it can be kept completely out of Logos.com and Vyrso.com (and Noet.com). Your library would only show books you search for, and you could choose when you wanted to visit that site to look for a specific book. We could promote any title we wanted from that store into Logos.com or Vyrso.com, making Vyrso a much larger store of Christian titles, but leaving 'everything' available at the new store.
I am reluctant to have yet another brand / product, but I suppose we could just name a store front and still use Noet or Vyrso as the mobile app...? Or maybe we should brand another suite of apps?
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David Taylor Jr said:
With the example of the erotic fiction I would say has no place in logos.com. I will say if that ever made its way into the store I would cease using Logos on moral grounds.
For the same reason we ought not buy our gasoline from a store that sells cigarettes. Same with pizza joints that sell beer. And using Netflix, Amazon Prime and cable TV is off limits. Taking my car to a mechanic who swears should be a no-no. I could go on.
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Bob Pritchett said:
There isn't a significant cost to taking in more EPUBs -- all of the publishers involved have automated 'feeds' which release new titles to the distributors; these feeds point to the EPUB files, contain the pricing and descriptive metadata, etc. It's all standardized and automated, to handle (between the publishers) hundreds of thousands (millions?) of titles. This is one of the reasons it's 'all of nothing' -- no one has the time to mess with individual titles (some of which might only sell a few units a year, if any). They just want to treat it as an automated process.
(And, in the cases we're discussing, there is a contractual requirement to offer the whole catalog -- something that's typical in this kind of large scale distribution.)
And, in a way, that's easier on our end, too -- if a publisher has 10,000+ titles available in EPUB format, we don't know what's what, and don't have time to read and evaluate 10,000 books. We wouldn't be putting these things on pre-pub, wouldn't be marketing them individually, etc. -- we'd just be 'taking the feed' and automatically putting them online.
The question makes more sense in this context.
Bob Pritchett said:If we do create another store front, it can be kept completely out of Logos.com and Vyrso.com (and Noet.com). Your library would only show books you search for, and you could choose when you wanted to visit that site to look for a specific book. We could promote any title we wanted from that store into Logos.com or Vyrso.com, making Vyrso a much larger store of Christian titles, but leaving 'everything' available at the new store.
For me, this would be critical. Otherwise it dilutes the focus of Logos.com and turns it into something very different.
I suspect that there would still be an ethical question that FaithLife would need to answer, which is whether they want to have even a passive association with distributing some of the less edifying materials offered by the publishers. I suspect that they've already given this some thought, or Bob would not have asked the question.
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I have already addressed this and the premise is false. This is a faith based company and as such should be selective of their products.Super.Tramp said:David Taylor Jr said:With the example of the erotic fiction I would say has no place in logos.com. I will say if that ever made its way into the store I would cease using Logos on moral grounds.
For the same reason we ought not buy our gasoline from a store that sells cigarettes. Same with pizza joints that sell beer. And using Netflix, Amazon Prime and cable TV is off limits. Taking my car to a mechanic who swears should be a no-no. I could go on.
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alabama24 said:
Bob would have to sell actual pornography.
I highly doubt that. Most respected publishers don't dabble in such stuff. There might be a few things that come close. Bob will have to think about it and decide for himself. I do admit that there have been many jobs over the years that I could have taken but didn't because I didn't want to have to explain my decision later.
alabama24 said:By the way, your answer is inconsistent.
David Paul said:As long as the two are not in the same pot, I don't see the problem.
David Paul said:He set before us blessing and cursing. Why? So that we could, and hopefully will CHOOSE life. Get this point...YHWH is both pro-choice and pro-life. Some will come into contact with cursing and choose death. Whose fault is that? Apparently, some of you think the answer is Bob. It is not.
Based on your thinking, shouldn't they all be in the same pot?
I don't see the inconsistency. He said we are to be in the world but not of the world. This is sanctification, which requires setting certain things apart. That's not the same as rooting them out of existence. Not to say that the unholy won't be removed...it will...but the time for that is not yet. Let the wheat and tares grow together, then at the appointed time, the tares will be gathered and burned. Sadly, Christianity's history is replete with tare gatherers. Inquisition, anyone?
Let me toss another bone out there. YHWH tells His people through Jeremiah that they must go to Babylon. But wait! I know something about Babylon, and it's not just "not good"--it's really bad...evil, even. So, we shouldn't go then, right? YHWH says, if you don't go, then I will obliterate you. I'm making you deal with this...so deal with it. Guess what? That is effectively where we're at in history. But, while Daniel was stuck there in Babylon, he made of point of keeping himself sanctified.
But, guess what's coming? "Come out of her, my people." Our job is to do what He says and deal with the circumstances He doles out. Our trying to rewrite the script by improvising won't end well because He will make sure it doesn't end well. Just like with the people who decided to enter into the land after He said He wouldn't allow them to enter the land after they refused to go in based on the reports of the twelve spies. Some set out for the promised land anyway and YHWH set the hounds on them, which promptly tore them to shreds.
Ecclesiastes (Eccl. 7:16) talks about being "excessively righteous", and I think it has situations like this in mind. Our job isn't to police the world, it is to police ourselves.
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Bob Pritchett said:
Just some notes which may help... if we do 'license everything' these books will come as EPUBs through an automatic feed, like the Vyrso titles. (Logos.com and Noet.com sell 'Logos Editions', which we hand tag and build with extra functionality. Vyrso.com sells 'eBooks' which are automatically derived from the publisher-provided EPUBs, resulting in less tagging, sometimes different formatting, etc.)
I have said before, and will say again, I think that LOGOS should be marketed as the "Academic E-Reader of Choice". With an undergraduate degree in the sciences (Chemistry with a Math minor) and graduate degrees in the ministry (M.Div.), Computer Science, and Counseling, I am convinced that having any or all of my textbooks available via LOGOS would have been a superior experience. A bit of tweaking allowing for handwritten notes in fields like chemistry and math would only add to the value of LOGOS.
Do I think that all books should be available in LOGOS? That would be a matter for your conscience; but as a former student and former educator (24 years in higher education), I can only recommend that you find a way to offer textbooks across the academic disciplines to as many students as possible.
Yours because His,
Floyd
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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While I'm not fond of a plethora of names, I think a separate name is necessary. Many of the people who have answered "no" should not buy any Zondervan books by their logic. Harper & Row publishes books to which they have a moral objection. Yet by keeping the publishing arms separated by names, Harper & Row has continued to be a major player in the Christian books market.
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IMO, there isn't a Christian ethics, as few Christians are for non-resistance and against killing anything else than harmful animals. We can always organize our libraries, and that is recommended once You have more than 50 cherry-picked books from many different sets or not from sets or a few hundred books in Your personal Faithlife library. But considering ethics, being selective when buying doesn't help if the publisher puts out any objectionable books. I'm one of those who takes into consideration what publishers I favour. That's a bit of extra work, but not that complicated, it's not the most difficult thing to memorize or search. Building a library will always use up some brain-power anyway. Of course, it's possible to to just buy huge bundles in the first place in order to avoid as much as possible of cherry-picking and just thinking about the budget. But in a modern world, we shouldn't do everything that's possible.
I know I sound rigid and conservative saying these things. We had a Philosophy and Ethics class this Spring semester, during the end of the Winter. To me, applied ethics is about things such as caring, being selective and making choices, on top of being environmentally friendly and what I said in the beginning of this post. A student I talked to who is studying his second year, remarked that I put too much time and thought-power into micro-management and all the choices that can be made especially when it comes to books. But I defend that (which I didn't tell him) by that my goals are different: I'm not uni to accomplish everything that is possible to accomplish if being maximally focused, but to learn and make lots of choices while I study, both to learn things they teach and to do my own thinking and explore more denominations and to choose what areas and topics and religions I want to study during the rest of my life. So far, I've been able to make some really great choices that I'm proud of having made. The next thing I decided from start that I want to learn, is languages, and suddenly chose Hebrew over Greek when I had to make the final choice.
So You can remark that I don't get away cheap, I'm not maximally efficient when it comes to everything, and I'm even not using the full potential of the Verbum books I have. But, (humans are good at making plans) I plan to devote my life to research and studies. No, I don't have all the time in the world, I realize that especially since I'm not a youth since some years. Now I know what they teach at uni. If I can't get to take advanced classes soon, I'll make the best possible choices what books to read (preferably from my existing purchases) and teach myself some things I need to know in order to start search, researching and authoring. If I can't produce grades at a good pace, I'll produce pages for the one book I'll author, and a few years before I'll publish it I'll see to that I have a degree and check what I previously wrote in order to refine and avoid wrong conclusions and make my conclusions verifiable afterwards.
My opinion is that Faithlife shouldn't try to ship all theological viewpoints, whether intended for research-purposes or not. We've just being taking a class about ethnic discrimination and such today here at seminary. Faithlife spreads the interest thin. There are already some good books. When I think focus and budget allows me an opportunity to build my library a bit to make one purchase, I look at what's live, not what's on pre-pub, and ask a sales-rep for a discount, and I also usually follow what's on a sale (but I only subscribe to some email lists, and I look for what would really help me in my interests and research. Usually a pre-pub item is not that much newer than a live item in order to motivate to buy the pre-pub. I scan new pre-pubs every now and then but only in order to not to miss the early-bird offers that would definitive purchases, my requirements are pretty high - and in the end I cancel most of the ones which are just a very specific interest which I realize I won't devote my time to. I have a broad library but the purpose is not to fill all gaps. There are tremendously good books that are not live or in pre-pub yet, some of those by publishers which are not that present in the Logos, Verbum or Noet stores, but the ones I would be interested in are for example: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/95219/661888.aspx#661888 Perennial Philosophy -type of books comparing Christianity and Jainism; the 2004 Good News Translation UK-English 66-book Bible and the classic Encyclopedia Britannica (32 vols.). This in addition to being selective about what publishers catalogs to put on pre-pub:CuTOP said:[...] I am not bothered by having junk also available for purchase. I won't be buying it anyhow, but having access to great books otherwise unavailable would be a huge advantage.
And personal opinion, there is already plenty of "junk" on Vyrso anyhow. Christian publishers are not immune from publishing worthless or junky material. [...]
Thanks for seeking to offer your customers choice and options.
Ben
Francis said:I agree with some of the previous posts that there is also the question of the company's identity. Becoming a distributor of shades of grey should not be a necessary condition for providing better access to Christian books. If some publishers try to impose the all or nothing approach, I would prefer personally that Logos retains a Christian distinctiveness even if it means less access. The intersection of ethics and business still matters to many of us.
Unlike with Accordance, it would be dangerous for Faithlife to pursue selective downloads, Bob can guess what I mean:JimTowler said:It would also be nice if I could have my 200 GB library on my Intel i9, 23 GHz PC at home, but only a 20 GB subset downloaded and indexed on my Microsoft Surface Pro 5. Right now we get a choice of all or all on our desktops, which does not fit on small portables so well.
Well, kind of a good idea, but perhaps there should be some technical systems in place: such as also verifying users have read at least 10 pages of the books or when it comes to bigger books at least 5% of the pages and. Because I suspect, trying not to be judgmental, that many who currently rate books are being a bit sloppy about it. Also ratings with reviews consisting of 192 tokens of motivations should be given a little more weight. Also, reviews with ratings by those who send in their scanned grade documents (finished degrees shouldn't be required) using their university email addresses to Faithlife, should be give a little more weight. It may sound like I'm asking a whole lot, but I know the danger in starting to trust average ratings of a book too much thinking that if I haven't read it and most users who rated it have read a bit of it then they are right. I'm aware of that ratings can't be trusted. No, I don't think the system of users of the webstore having to rate the reviews would be helpful, first of all ratings with no reviews can't be rated nor even commented and no-one can request such raters to submit a review afterwards, second of all it's a massive amount of work to read thousands of reviews just to rate the reviews. I know because reading reviews has used up hundreds of hours of my time I could have put on focusing on doing better at uni such as writing papers and using more days to read for each test:John Duffy said:Filtering good books (which is a variable definition, I know) has often been done physically in bookshops in town - they just don't put the books available from the publisher on the shelves of their shop. Filtering can also be achieved in online stores by other means, such as community ratings.
One way of filtering the massive listing which publishers offer, to make a storefront more like the 'good Christian bookshop' in town, might be through community rating of titles. If an option in our preferences on login to such an online store were to only display books which have already been rated above some threshold by a given number of users with Logos/Vyrso accounts (validated users who have actually purchased books), then the combined wisdom of Logos users could function in a similar way to the decision-making of the manager of the 'good Christian bookshop' in town. Different rating tags for different denominations could further refine people's choices too, and so on. As a starter, books which fall within certain categories might be given sufficiently high interim community ratings, which could be distinguished from actual community ratings which would build up over time. Users could be asked on signup whether they want to be shown all books, or only those rated sufficiently highly by the community, or choose to see displayed only books from within certain categories.
That way, all books can be offered, but the user and the community could do the filtering, not Bob.
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I'm still in favour of this, not least because I have 43 Christian books on my Kindle that I'd love to have bought in Logos format.
One possible way to minimise the impact of some of the more controversial content without getting into contractual issues would be to add an adult filter, so that by default erotic titles were not displayed. Initial filtering could be done programmatically, but with the option for users to report titles that have slipped through the net.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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David Paul said:alabama24 said:
Bob would have to sell actual pornography.
I highly doubt that. Most respected publishers don't dabble in such stuff. There might be a few things that come close. Bob will have to think about it and decide for himself. I do admit that there have been many jobs over the years that I could have taken but didn't because I didn't want to have to explain my decision later.
Well as an owner of the Joy of Gay Sex, I can promise you this HarperCollins title would be classified as pornography by most people. It is true that this guide is primarily an informational guide, the drawings tend to be extremely explicit. This is one example. I am almost sure numerous other examples could be found. I do not consider this a reason not to go ahead, you can go into most any bookstore and find this. Evil to the one who thinks evil of it. "The anti-papist literature was the pornography of the puritans." I am not trying to say "to the pure all things are pure" just that many items can be abused, even the Song of Solomon has been misused by some. We are ultimately responsible for our own choices and how we use things we have.
-Dan
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Actually, ST, I DO avoid all the ones you list. Except Amazon. I don't avoid them because I'm so sinful. I think it has more to do with parental training back in the 50s.
I'm not arguing yea/nay, but Zondervan is a good example. Should Bob be the image of the Australian CEO? On the other hand I'm sick of Zondervan not selling me titles at a low, low discount.
But then I think of a really, really big retailer that would not dream of offending their customer core with 'anything goes' assortment. Most of the time anyway.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I guess my main concern would be loss or lack of acquistion of good quality Christian publishers.
I'm not sure it would be a way to tempt back Moody or entice Banner of Truth to want to partner with you.
Yes I'd like lots of ebooks (I'd only buy the Christian studies ones!) but I'd MUCH MUCH rather not have all so we could get Moody and BoT for example!
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Dan Francis said:
We are ultimately responsible for our own choices and how we use things we have.
As a paraphrase of Deut. 30:19, I agree.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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James Hudson said:
I guess my main concern would be loss or lack of acquistion of good quality Christian publishers.
I'm not sure it would be a way to tempt back Moody or entice Banner of Truth to want to partner with you.
Yes I'd like lots of ebooks (I'd only buy the Christian studies ones!) but I'd MUCH MUCH rather not have all so we could get Moody and BoT for example!
I'm pretty sure Moody, et al., sells through numerous channels that carry the "other" stuff already.
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James Hudson said:
I'm not sure it would be a way to tempt back Moody or entice Banner of Truth to want to partner with you.
...but Moody DOES partner with Faithlife... just not as "Logos" Editions. See HERE.
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John Goodman said:
I think you should go for it but add 6 zeros to the price of all the bad stuff... We get all the books we want and you never sell bad stuff except to incredibly stupid billionaires;)
That's one of the most brilliant solutions I've seen! [Y] [:)]
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Once again, secular outlet vs faith based outlet.David Paul said:James Hudson said:I guess my main concern would be loss or lack of acquistion of good quality Christian publishers.
I'm not sure it would be a way to tempt back Moody or entice Banner of Truth to want to partner with you.
Yes I'd like lots of ebooks (I'd only buy the Christian studies ones!) but I'd MUCH MUCH rather not have all so we could get Moody and BoT for example!
I'm pretty sure Moody, et al., sells through numerous channels that carry the "other" stuff already.
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David Taylor Jr said:
Once again, secular outlet vs faith based outlet.
I guess I need to ask you what you have in mind when you say "faith-based". Are you indicating something owned by a person who claims to have "faith"? Or are you describing a company that has a particular "image" and "content" that relates to "faith"? Is it one or the other, or both together, or some other permutation or description?
Fwiw, I think I already stated or at least indicated that FL, as much because of the name as anything else, shouldn't be directly associated with riff-raff.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Some thoughts:
It seems that there is a need for four book stores:
- Tagged Biblical Research Books = Logos
- Tagged Academic Research Books = Noet
- EPub Christian Books = Vyrso
- EPub General Books = “New Store”
This being the case there need to be a search option at each of the stores to show results from all for book stores. It is already a pain to have to search both Logos and Vyrso to see if I can purchase a Christian book I am interested in.
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