Do you want every ebook in the world in Logos?
Comments
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abondservant said:
Primary religious texts and their commentaries would now be available. Cultural anthropology texts, linguistics material, stuff about ancient Israel from an Israelis perspective and on and on and on.
This is what is most appealing to me and I would LOVE to see that part. Don't get me wrong, I dare say I'm more conservative that 95+% of the Logos customer base [:|] and would abhor to see Faithlife lose the Faith and eventually the life! Let's think seriously, however, and be careful that our rationale is rational...
Being given the 90% option is actually quite significant. Those of you who point to the amount of "junk" on Amazon aren't being logical. I know Bob did draw a parallel with Amazon, BUT, Amazon is NOT the publisher. Faithlife would not need to license the catalogues of all the same publishers as Amazon does! Given that Faithlife would be sticking with "reputable" publishers, surely it couldn't be that significantly greater than 10% of their material would be erotica or otherwise morally objectionable!
Again, I think it would be wrong IF christians would be caused to sin through what was offered available. On the other hand, I think that there is a very real possibility of making use of this opportunity in a way that's "wise as serpents AND harmless as doves"!
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Mark said:
I also am not convinced. What are the summary arguments for wanting to have every book in the world in logos?
From my point of view, it would provide a much more impressive and academic theological offering. I'd not have slightest interest in purchasing maths or physics books, but I really would like access to more academic theology and biblical studies. It would be fantastic to have it all tagged, but I'd rather have it available in Logos and untagged than only available on Amazon and unsearchable and extractable with difficulty.
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Mark said:
I also am not convinced. What are the summary arguments for wanting to have every book in the world in logos?
I like logos for the search engine. Easy to study the Scriptures and search for topics etc. For every book in the world I would not need that
I have posted a "yes" and then later, a "no" to Bob's question... but let me answer you directly:
I don't think anyone wants to have EVERY BOOK IN THE WORLD in logos... Rather, there are books which some users might want/need which aren't currently available. In my case, I have over 6,000 books in Logos and 1,000 on Kindle. Most of the kindle books I would not want in Logos, but there are some which I would. My rationale is that ANY book I might want to use in teaching or speaking, I would want in Logos.
Two examples: To Kill A Mockingbird and Becoming Steve Jobs (I am currently reading the later). I could easily see using either for illustrations in both preaching and speaking (i.e. Toastmasters, Graduation Banquets, etc.). The number one benefit to me of the Logos system is the integrated search library.
The whole EVERY BOOK IN THE WORLD thing came up because some publishers would require a reseller (i.e. Logos) to carry every title in their catalog to be a reseller of their works. This sort of thing is common in business... even cable TV! One of the reasons we can't have "ala cart" cable or satellite is because the mega companies won't allow it. If you want ESPN, you have to take twenty other channels as well.
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Rayner said:
I'd not have slightest interest in purchasing maths or physics books, but I really would like access to more academic theology and biblical studies.
I took an economics class last year, and having the econ book in Logos would have been a great help to me! I don't think a regular math book of problems would be too appealing for most people, but I could see some users benefiting from theoretical math / physics / astronomy, etc.
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Perhaps I don't understand what Bob meant correctly, but it seems to me that if the deal is that publishers stream their entire catalog in EPUB format, even the more "Logos Bible Software" type of resources in that mass would be more like Vyrso books, that is, untagged.
If I understand this correctly then, would we want to have more books that are not tagged? Would this require a realistic readjustment of our expectations: this or that monograph from Brill is great but I won't be able to use Bible research specific tools on it, apart from what could be done with just a plain book (read, take notes, highlight, search). Example: if an original language word is mentioned, I imagine it would not link up to lexica. If a cross-reference to a primary source is provided, I imagine it would not be tagged as such, etc.
Again, I am not sure at all of this but wondering.
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Alain Maashe said:
While I am not surprised by this development (planning wise at least) from a business perspective, the fact that Bob would even ask saddens me greatly.
Just image the possible legacy summarized by statements such as , "I became hooked on pornography and extramarital affairs after discovering this erotica series through Faithlife (or whatever store front)." What a testimony. and no, the excuse, I was just the electronic distributor will not do anymore that I was just the drug-dealer and it was not even my main business venture.
Because Faithlife (Logos) began with a mission to serve the Church, it is held to a different standard than the one applied to Amazon for example that has never pretended to be Christian. 1 Cor 5:9-13 would apply here.
Alain
I agree.
Charlene
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Bob Pritchett said:
The primary goal, of course, wouldn't even be new customers (unlikely anyway -- Amazon is almost unassailable in the general market). The goal would be to have a pool of resources we could use to meet your needs and requests, and those of the Christian colleges and seminaries we're hoping to serve, ensuring every title a pastor or student could need was available in one platform.
I think these two sentences are very important to remember in this discussion. The amount of books sold from this potential book store will be very small, its primary purpose will be for Faithlife to cherry pick the good stuff out of it and place those books in their Logos, Noet and Vyrso bookstores. The people who are inclined to purchase profane materials will be going elsewhere. This will be even more likely if the publishers give Faithlife the ability to remove the most objectionable books. Moreover, I would hope that Faithlife would only sell books they have reviewed at a discount and everything else at FULL retail price. This alone would herd most people who purchase smut towards Amazon.
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Dan Francis said:
First and foremost Faithlife is a business. If it were a "Mission to serve the Church" we would have much cheaper products and in general things would be added as needed and not in a pre-pub system.
Then change the statement contained in "About us" at the Logos home page.
Charlene
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Charlene said:
I agree.
... yes, but I think that it is time to concede that things are not what we thought they were or are pretended to be. The real point of the thread is to announce that FL has chosen to become like Amazon, and to a lesser extent, to find a way to bring it to pass that takes into consideration the sensibilities of the majority of the customer base. I share in the grief and hope that my brothers and sisters will not be excessively discouraged by this, but keep their eyes and hearts in the right place.
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Francis said:Charlene said:
I agree.
... yes, but I think that it is time to concede that things are not what we thought they were or are pretended to be. The real point of the thread is to announce that FL has chosen to become like Amazon, and to a lesser extent, to find a way to bring it to pass that takes into consideration the sensibilities of the majority of the customer base. I share in the grief and hope that my brothers and sisters will not be excessively discouraged by this, but keep their eyes and hearts in the right place.
Unfortunately it looks like you are right. I too am grieved.
Charlene
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Francis said:
Perhaps I don't understand what Bob meant correctly, but it seems to me that if the deal is that publishers stream their entire catalog in EPUB format, even the more "Logos Bible Software" type of resources in that mass would be more like Vyrso books, that is, untagged.
If I understand this correctly then, would we want to have more books that are not tagged?
He was pretty clear, in my opinion.
Here are your choices:
- Have some of these titles not available AT ALL in Logos.
- Have these titles in Logos, at a "vyrso edition" level, and SOME might be able to be converted to "Logos editions."
I love "logos edition" works, but I love having resources in my library more than insisting on them being in that format. Furthermore, there are a large number of resources for which making them "Logos edition" doesn't do much other than shore up scripture links and formatting.
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alabama24 said:Francis said:
Perhaps I don't understand what Bob meant correctly, but it seems to me that if the deal is that publishers stream their entire catalog in EPUB format, even the more "Logos Bible Software" type of resources in that mass would be more like Vyrso books, that is, untagged.
If I understand this correctly then, would we want to have more books that are not tagged?
He was pretty clear, in my opinion.
Here are your choices:
- Have some of these titles not available AT ALL in Logos.
- Have these titles in Logos, at a "vyrso edition" level, and SOME might be able to be converted to "Logos editions."
I love "logos edition" works, but I love having resources in my library more than insisting on them being in that format. Furthermore, there are a large number of resources for which making them "Logos edition" doesn't do much other than shore up scripture links and formatting.
Yep. You put it into clear words.
Have joy in the Lord!
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alabama24 said:Francis said:
Perhaps I don't understand what Bob meant correctly, but it seems to me that if the deal is that publishers stream their entire catalog in EPUB format, even the more "Logos Bible Software" type of resources in that mass would be more like Vyrso books, that is, untagged.
If I understand this correctly then, would we want to have more books that are not tagged?
He was pretty clear, in my opinion.
Here are your choices:
- Have some of these titles not available AT ALL in Logos.
- Have these titles in Logos, at a "vyrso edition" level, and SOME might be able to be converted to "Logos editions."
I love "logos edition" works, but I love having resources in my library more than insisting on them being in that format. Furthermore, there are a large number of resources for which making them "Logos edition" doesn't do much other than shore up scripture links and formatting.
Let's not forget that MORE than "SOME" could graduate to a Logos format if/when the crowdsourced tagging gets implemented! [;)]
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Bob Pritchett said:
"... least appropriate / most objectionable content ..."
I hope Bob/FL recognize that they are setting themselves up in the unenviable position of being the gatekeepers to this new venture and that no two people will ever agree on exactly what "least appropriate / most objectionable content" actually is.
I pray that the armor fits well, is durable, and covers every square inch.
Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
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JRS said:
What would prevent the new store from allowing users to "flag as inappropriate"? Flagged books could be quarantined for review. Just a thought. This makes me earlier point that there generally DOES EXIST viable, feasible, reasonable mechanisms for accomplishing a purpose beyond what we initially think (most of the time).
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Francis said:Charlene said:
I agree.
... yes, but I think that it is time to concede that things are not what we thought they were or are pretended to be. The real point of the thread is to announce that FL has chosen to become like Amazon, and to a lesser extent, to find a way to bring it to pass that takes into consideration the sensibilities of the majority of the customer base. I share in the grief and hope that my brothers and sisters will not be excessively discouraged by this, but keep their eyes and hearts in the right place.
The real point of this thread is exactly what Bob said it was — to ascertain from us, his customers, whether we want to buy resources from mainstream publishers in the Logos format if that meant they also had to make some unsavoury titles also available for sale.
I said "yes", not because I want FL to become like Amazon (which Bob has explicitly says he doesn't want to do), but because (a) a number of non-Logos publishers publish books that are useful to my ministry, and (b) I trust FL to continue to focus on what really matters - developing an expanding the usefulness of Logos Bible Software for study and devotions.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Would having questionable content fulfill Faithlife's mission statement?
Our mission is to serve the church. We do this by fostering a culture of service and innovation, by creating Bible study tools that connect people to the Word, and by hiring awesome, fun people.
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David Taylor Jr said:
Would having questionable content fulfill Faithlife's mission statement?
I think that's the wrong question. Bob isn't wanting to have questionable content.
The question is "Can we serve the church better by significantly broadening our content (even though some of it's questionable), or by keeping our content narrower"?
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Super.Tramp said:
For the same reason we ought not buy our gasoline from a store that sells cigarettes. Same with pizza joints that sell beer. And using Netflix, Amazon Prime and cable TV is off limits. Taking my car to a mechanic who swears should be a no-no. I could go on.
I'm sure you could "go on," but you'd just be continuing your illegitimate straw man argument. Those who have expressed this concern have made it clear that, to them, the fact that Faithlife is a "Christian" company, whom they see as a partner in ministry, makes it different than Amazon or pizza or auto mechanics. If you can't understand that distinction, then continuing to attack an argument that they are not making doesn't add anything to the discussion. If you want to continue that line of thinking, the counter argument to yours would be, "So you must be fine with your church selling pornographic magazines in its lobby. After all, you're willing to buy gas and groceries from places that sell these (and imagine how much ministry it could fund). And, because in the back of the auto shop where your car gets fixed, they may well have pictures of half naked women on their tool boxes, you obviously would be fine with such posters hanging on the walls of your local Christian bookstore..."
Simply put, if you can't understand the distinction being made, by Christians who see Faithline as co-laborers in ministry, that is fine. However, you are not being helpful by attacking a straw man.
For me, personally, the argument that "I don't want to buy Bible Software from a company that sells erotic material" is less significant to the initial question than other things. The initial question was, "Would we like/want Logos to offer all books..." If Faithlife were my company, I most definitely would NOT go this direction, for several reasons, including the moral issues being talked about here. However, it is not my company. This does not mean that people shouldn't weigh in on the moral issue. In fact, this was specifically part of Bob Pritchett's initial question. While I might continue to use Bible software from a business, even if they make some moral decisions differently than I would, others might not. This is precisely the input that was being asked for.
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Dan Francis said:Rokas said:
Selling erotica is a sin.
Pushing Bob into selling erotica is also a sin.
until I hear you are promoting a boycott of Amazon.com and other book retailers I am not going to take this too serious.
-Dan
No, I think you see this wrongly. "Buying from a non-Christian neutral stuff" and "a Christian selling erotica" are two completely different things. I am not concerned about myself buying from Bob. I am concerned about Bob and his wonderful business selling erotica (and sinning in that way).
And saying to Bob "don't worry about selling erotica, do it!" is pushing him somewhat into doing it. Supporting, at least.
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That answer is simple. The ends do not justify the means.Mark Barnes said:David Taylor Jr said:Would having questionable content fulfill Faithlife's mission statement?
I think that's the wrong question. Bob isn't wanting to have questionable content.
The question is "Can we serve the church better by significantly broadening our content (even though some of it's questionable), or by keeping our content narrower"?
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The interesting thing is that when Logos offers to sell certain books including the Dictionary, some people complained.
I am a Seventh-day Adventist, and people complained when Logos started offering Sda Base Packages with lots of literature from Seventh-day Adventist authors. [:P] Go figure.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Mark said:
I also am not convinced. What are the summary arguments for wanting to have every book in the world in logos?
I like logos for the search engine. Easy to study the Scriptures and search for topics etc. For every book in the world I would not need that
I do not want all my books in Logos... There are numerous books on spirituality that would be made available by doing this and they would be most valuable in Logos. Even for say a Creationist, the ability to have in Logos books you are hoping to work against might be a great help. We have the Qur'an available in Logos and I am sure many find it useful for inter religious dialogue. I cannot imagine anyone having any good reason or desire to purchase erotica through Logos. Nor do most publishers publish much of it... (I do realize at one point Bob said everything Amazon sells, which has numerous niche publishers, I do not look for erotica so in truth I have no real idea as to the exact percentages) And as I mentioned earlier, there was even one Pastor a few months back requesting 50 shades of grey in Logos as a tool for outreach (he was sincere although I am not sure how useful this would be, a Youth Pastor's I know has a brother in law is apparently heavily into the S & M community and says 50 Shades is unrealistic, although that is truly one of the main problems with porn it is unrealistic, it turns people into objects to lusted after rather than individuals to be loved )...
-Dan
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alabama24 said:
This has absolutely nothing to do with base packages... or even "Logos edition" resources.
I'm not sure you read my entire post, or I don't think you would have given this reply. My argument was, I don't particularly mind "more resources" being available. However, it has been my experience with Logos (over nearly 20 years) that as "more resources" that are not directly related to studying Scripture become available, these resources make their way into base packages of Logos, and are included in the marketing of "over 20,000 books, worth over 6 million dollars..." While I don't figure that "50 Shades" is likely to begin showing up in base packages of Logos Bible Software, I would not be surprised if other "Classic" non-Christian literature did. Some may like and want this, I do not. My point in that post: My opinion - my answer to Pritchett's question - is that I personally would rather that Faithlife focus much more narrowly on Bible Study materials and software. This is because even at this point, the expansion of Faithlife into broader materials has already expanded the size and cost of the Bible Study Base Packages, and I can imagine that this direction might lead to more of the same.
So, while it is your opinion that "this has nothing to do with base packages..." my personal concern - which is what Pritchett asked for - is that it in fact will.
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Rokas said:
And saying to Bob "don't worry about selling erotica, do it!" is pushing him somewhat into doing it. Supporting, at least.
I apologize if it seemed that I was trying to encourage him to sell erotica, I was attempting to encourage him to make available a larger catalog. I believe a vast majority of the books he would bring in would be objectionable for numerous reasons. I have enough confidence in Bob's Integrity to believe he could somehow get around selling the most objectionable materials, even if it was simply some sort of disclaimer. Bob has stated one of his goals is to make Logos more relevant to university students. To allow them to be able to have in Logos/Noet all books that may be required for a class. I agree with you a Christian selling erotica is not proper and yes we should do everything we can to encourage brothers and sisters in the faith from sinning. But I am sure that there are numerous people who feel Bob is already sinning. Selling books of Heretical teachings. I am trying to say and perhaps I have to much confidence in my fellow Christians, that in the same way as no Mormon is going to go into a mormon cafe and order a beer, no Christian is going to be on Logos ordering erotica either.
-Dan
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Al Het said:
So, while it is your opinion that "this has nothing to do with base packages..." my personal concern - which is what Pritchett asked for - is that it in fact will.
Since these won't be "logos edition" resources, they won't be included in base packages... Furthermore, if THESE resources don't make it into a base package (they won't), some OTHER resources will. Your argument is unrelated to the topic.
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Dan Francis said:Rokas said:
And saying to Bob "don't worry about selling erotica, do it!" is pushing him somewhat into doing it. Supporting, at least.
I apologize if it seemed that I was trying to encourage him to sell erotica, I was attempting to encourage him to make available a larger catalog. I believe a vast majority of the books he would bring in would be objectionable for numerous reasons. I have enough confidence in Bob's Integrity to believe he could somehow get around selling the most objectionable materials, even if it was simply some sort of disclaimer. Bob has stated one of his goals is to make Logos more relevant to university students. To allow them to be able to have in Logos/Noet all books that may be required for a class. I agree with you a Christian selling erotica is not proper and yes we should do everything we can to encourage brothers and sisters in the faith from sinning. But I am sure that there are numerous people who feel Bob is already sinning. Selling books of Heretical teachings. I am trying to say and perhaps I have to much confidence in my fellow Christians, that in the same way as no Mormon is going to go into a mormon cafe and order a beer, no Christian is going to be on Logos ordering erotica either.
-Dan
I am sorry for how this turned out - I wasn't aiming "Pushing Christians to sell erotica" exactly at you to exact an apology, but rather generally.
You say "do everything to keep from sinning". I agree wholeheartedly.
It isn't really important what people think of him on a big scale. What's important is how God sees it. And while I may imagine that selling books with heretical teachings could be OK, there is simply now way how selling erotica could be justified. Serving university students better is a noble goal, but ends do not justify the means and sin should be avoided at all costs, even if that means university students being left without the textbooks in Logos format.
And again, for me it's not about ordering erotica (that would be a sin as well), but rather about selling it.
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As a Christian, I have a vested interest into how Christianity is represented to the world. When a professed Christian is found to be a swindler or perpetrator of sexual abuse, it affects me because it discredits the faith, and more importantly "causes God's name to be blasphemed among the nations".
With that in mind, I cannot understand how anybody who professes to be Christian and to serve the Church could contemplate distributing immoral material. Jesus, the standard of discipleship, would under no circumstance do such a thing. What a contrast this would be also with the attitude of Abraham, who refused the king of Sodom's offer of loot, so that it could not be said that he had contributed to his wealth! I am flabbergasted, but very, very sadly, no longer suprised to see how many fellow users of Bible software, who profess to be Christians, can think that this would be acceptable before God and even encourage Bob to do it. You are a stumbling block and let me remind you, if I may, the frightening warning of Jesus for those who cause even the littlest one to stumble: it would be better for them to be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone around their necks.
Non-Christians are much quicker to pick up the hypocrisy of what we so finely justify. I can assure you that non-Christians who get to know that FL claims to have a Christian mission statement, serve the Church and yet distributes and profits from inappropriate material (erotica being but one example) will certainly not be fooled by any of the fine-sounding arguments being made here. They will, and not without cause, be confirmed in their thinking that Christians are a bunch of hypocrites. I have seen this over and over again.
I agree also with the sentiment that has been expressed by several here, that we actually care about Bob and others at faithlife being godly and not engaging in a spiritually harmful way. Many here have already manifested that apparently this should be irrelevant to this community and to Faithlife people as business people and they try to convince the rest of us that it irrelevant indeed. This is crazy sad. I already know as I write this that I am wasting my time with regard to many, maybe most, but I am hoping that there are still some that can wake up from this madness. If you have any care for Jesus, simply answer for yourself this question: what would Jesus say or do?
And, finally, I should point out that even if Faithlife had no ambition of having a Christian identity and mission, it would still be incredibly wrong for Christians to tell them that it is okay for them to distribute material that is dishonoring to God, the Gospel and the Kingdom. What kind of witnesses would we prove to be?
I fear that if with all the books we already have to help us understand the message of the Scriptures we are here, I don't see what benefit it will be to us to have access to many more books.
EDIT: sorry for the typos, I'm tired.
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Francis said:
I fear that if with all the books we already have to help us understand the message of the Scriptures we are here, I don't see what benefit it will be to us to have access to many more books.
It is not the number of books available that matters. What matters is that they be the right books for out needs. The number of books I have to purchase outside Logos is clear evidence of the inadequacy of the Logos catalogue. Where are the basics - Kugel, Alter, Herschel, a Reception history commentary, ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Very well said, from the heart, Biblical, on on target. I meet with a group of men who all happen to be Logos users and we are mortified that this even came under consideration for the very reasons you laid out in your post.Francis said:As a Christian, I have a vested interest into how Christianity is represented to the world. When a professed Christian is found to be a swindler or perpetrator of sexual abuse, it affects me because it discredits the faith, and more importantly "causes God's name to be blasphemed among the nations".
With that in mind, I cannot understand how anybody who professes to be Christian and to serve the Church could contemplate distributing immoral material. Jesus, the standard of discipleship, would under no circumstance do such a thing. What a contrast this would be also with the attitude of Abraham, who refused the king of Sodom's offer of loot, so that it could not be said that he had contributed to his wealth! I am flabbergasted, but very, very sadly, no longer suprised to see how many fellow users of Bible software, who profess to be Christians, can think that this would be acceptable before God and even encourage Bob to do it. You are a stumbling block and let me remind you, if I may, the frightening warning of Jesus for those who cause even the littlest one to stumble: it would be better for them to be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone around their necks.
Non-Christians are much quicker to pick up the hypocrisy of what we so finely justify. I can assure you that non-Christians who get to know that FL claims to have a Christian mission statement, serve the Church and yet distributes and profits from inappropriate material (erotica being but one example) will certainly not be fooled by any of the fine-sounding arguments being made here. They will, and not without cause, be confirmed in their thinking that Christians are a bunch of hypocrites. I have seen this over and over again.
I agree also with the sentiment that has been expressed by several here, that we actually care about Bob and others at faithlife being godly and not engaging in a spiritually harmful way. Many here have already manifested that apparently this should be irrelevant to this community and to Faithlife people as business people and they try to convince the rest of us that it irrelevant indeed. This is crazy sad. I already know as I write this that I am wasting my time with regard to many, maybe most, but I am hoping that there are still some that can wake up from this madness. If you have any care for Jesus, simply answer for yourself this question: what would Jesus say or do?
And, finally, I should point out that even if Faithlife had no ambition of having a Christian identity and mission, it would still be incredibly wrong for Christians to tell them that it is okay for them to distribute material that is dishonoring to God, the Gospel and the Kingdom. What kind of witnesses would we prove to be?
I fear that if with all the books we already have to help us understand the message of the Scriptures we are here, I don't see what benefit it will be to us to have access to many more books.
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Francis said:
As a Christian, I have a vested interest into how Christianity is represented to the world. When a professed Christian is found to be a swindler or perpetrator of sexual abuse, it affects me because it discredits the faith, and more importantly "causes God's name to be blasphemed among the nations".
With that in mind, I cannot understand how anybody who professes to be Christian and to serve the Church could contemplate distributing immoral material. Jesus, the standard of discipleship, would under no circumstance do such a thing. What a contrast this would be also with the attitude of Abraham, who refused the king of Sodom's offer of loot, so that it could not be said that he had contributed to his wealth! I am flabbergasted, but very, very sadly, no longer suprised to see how many fellow users of Bible software, who profess to be Christians, can think that this would be acceptable before God and even encourage Bob to do it. You are a stumbling block and let me remind you, if I may, the frightening warning of Jesus for those who cause even the littlest one to stumble: it would be better for them to be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone around their necks.
Non-Christians are much quicker to pick up the hypocrisy of what we so finely justify. I can assure you that non-Christians who get to know that FL claims to have a Christian mission statement, serve the Church and yet distributes and profits from inappropriate material (erotica being but one example) will certainly not be fooled by any of the fine-sounding arguments being made here. They will, and not without cause, be confirmed in their thinking that Christians are a bunch of hypocrites. I have seen this over and over again.
I agree also with the sentiment that has been expressed by several here, that we actually care about Bob and others at faithlife being godly and not engaging in a spiritually harmful way. Many here have already manifested that apparently this should be irrelevant to this community and to Faithlife people as business people and they try to convince the rest of us that it irrelevant indeed. This is crazy sad. I already know as I write this that I am wasting my time with regard to many, maybe most, but I am hoping that there are still some that can wake up from this madness. If you have any care for Jesus, simply answer for yourself this question: what would Jesus say or do?
And, finally, I should point out that even if Faithlife had no ambition of having a Christian identity and mission, it would still be incredibly wrong for Christians to tell them that it is okay for them to distribute material that is dishonoring to God, the Gospel and the Kingdom. What kind of witnesses would we prove to be?
I fear that if with all the books we already have to help us understand the message of the Scriptures we are here, I don't see what benefit it will be to us to have access to many more books.
Thank you, Francis, for stating it so clearly. I agree wholeheartedly!
Charlene
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Like I expressed in my first post in this thread where I explained exactly what I was thinking (it's on page 5), it's crucial to be very selective about what publishers to accept into the Faithlife ecosystem. I try to boycot publishers and stores that I dislike, to as great extent as possible, such as Amazon, Zondervan, Harper & Row to name the most well known ones, besides those ones there are several clearly denominational publishers that I avoid. It may sound like I avoid just because of disagreeing with certain denominations, but I'm a bit tired about the denomination-categorizing. Also, a sidenote: I believe Logos version 6 standard base-packages have failed - they include books I would not accept such as NIV11 and Socio-Rhetorical Commentary on the New Testament. (That commentary set is not a lasting one.) I will never again upgrade to a standard base-package, I object to that each standard base-package level above Bronze contains everything in both Bronze and Starter - I don't want all that beginner-, summary-, outline-, and introductory material in the low-end base packages if I were to upgrade to mid-range base-package. The one standard base-package I got was Logos 5 Bronze.
A select few publishers might be OK if being very careful which publishers, and to be extremely careful to exclude the worst 10% of the books, books that are objectionable/inappropriate to Christians and theologically dangerous "Christian" books. I can't emphasize the latter enough. I would be so much more pleased with Faithlife and would recommend the software to more people if some of the least scholarly sound publishers and individual titles that fool people the most would be removed - and I would praise Faithlife if they would dare to publish less new books by some popular authors that really bug me. Some of the most popular authors are like idols akin to televangelists except that they are in text form only - people should be helped to discover better scholars. Some theologies are really just invented for a cashflow! There are some competing softwares to Faithlife (few if any of them good) that object to publishing the latest fad or books that have come in print just to tickle ears.
Having an interest to research is very sound, but doing that with the most inferiour resources is a waste of time and energy (and I'm not thinking of public domain books, there are many public domain books that are excellent such as Cambridge Greek Testament and Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges - I buy a select few of these volumes, and I was pleased with a large part of the books in the 2014 Cyber Monday Mega Pack).
Lastly, if being proud over what You sell, a separate Store Front should not be needed - just be clear about which books are not actual Logos Bible Study format but the cheaper format with less or no tagging and include them in the Logos (and perhaps Verbum) Stores (EDIT: on top of in the Noet Store of course) (not in Vyrso):Francis said:As a Christian, I have a vested interest into how Christianity is represented to the world. When a professed Christian is found to be a swindler or perpetrator of sexual abuse, it affects me because it discredits the faith, and more importantly "causes God's name to be blasphemed among the nations".
With that in mind, I cannot understand how anybody who professes to be Christian and to serve the Church could contemplate distributing immoral material.
[...]
Non-Christians are much quicker to pick up the hypocrisy of what we so finely justify.
[...]
And, finally, I should point out that even if Faithlife had no ambition of having a Christian identity and mission, it would still be incredibly wrong for Christians to tell them that it is okay for them to distribute material that is dishonoring to God, the Gospel and the Kingdom. What kind of witnesses would we prove to be?I fear that if with all the books we already have to help us understand the message of the Scriptures we are here, I don't see what benefit it will be to us to have access to many more books.
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MJ. Smith said:Francis said:
I fear that if with all the books we already have to help us understand the message of the Scriptures we are here, I don't see what benefit it will be to us to have access to many more books.
It is not the number of books available that matters. What matters is that they be the right books for out needs. The number of books I have to purchase outside Logos is clear evidence of the inadequacy of the Logos catalogue. Where are the basics - Kugel, Alter, Herschel, a Reception history commentary, ...
Yes, I would echo a lack of these basics. I'm trying to digitise my library and there's so much stuff that is simply unavailable in Logos.
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Robert Alter is the one author I miss, I can't remember by heart any other must-have author. I would like to have books of poetry edited by Alter as well, such as anthologies (and I'm not a big fan of fiction, I've read little fiction, but Haim Nahman Bialik's Old Testament -sounding desert and battlefield poetry was such an experience I got interested in the genre and fell in love with it little less than three Months ago in a large uni library (translated to English by Ruth Nevo, name of the poem is Superimposed Worlds and the volume is: Canon and Creativity (hasn't been specifically requested in Logos)):
Rayner said:Yes, I would echo a lack of these basics. I'm trying to digitise my library and there's so much stuff that is simply unavailable in Logos:
MJ. Smith said:It is not the number of books available that matters. What matters is that they be the right books for out needs. The number of books I have to purchase outside Logos is clear evidence of the inadequacy of the Logos catalogue. Where are the basics - Kugel, Alter, Herschel, a Reception history commentary, ...: Francis said:
I fear that if with all the books we already have to help us understand the message of the Scriptures we are here, I don't see what benefit it will be to us to have access to many more books.
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Bob Pritchett said:
With that said... new information: while every publisher has different rules, it looks like we may be able to get a contract if we agree to distribute just 90% of a publisher's catalog. This would let us not offer the 10% least appropriate / most objectionable content. I'm hoping this will solve the problem.
I must say this idea concerns me. What if 11% of a publisher's catalog is truly inappropriate? Maybe that won't be an issue, but I can see how it very well might be, especially considering the current trajectory of our culture. I would be truly saddened to see you compromise your Christian principles in an effort to expand your business.
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Bob Pritchett said:
With that said... new information: while every publisher has different rules, it looks like we may be able to get a contract if we agree to distribute just 90% of a publisher's catalog. This would let us not offer the 10% least appropriate / most objectionable content. I'm hoping this will solve the problem.
For some publishers, that probably works. For others, I'm sure it doesn't. Please be discerning in this matter, as I know you are inclined to be.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Francis said:
As a Christian, I have a vested interest into how Christianity is represented to the world. When a professed Christian is found to be a swindler or perpetrator of sexual abuse, it affects me because it discredits the faith, and more importantly "causes God's name to be blasphemed among the nations".
With that in mind, I cannot understand how anybody who professes to be Christian and to serve the Church could contemplate distributing immoral material. Jesus, the standard of discipleship, would under no circumstance do such a thing. What a contrast this would be also with the attitude of Abraham, who refused the king of Sodom's offer of loot, so that it could not be said that he had contributed to his wealth! I am flabbergasted, but very, very sadly, no longer suprised to see how many fellow users of Bible software, who profess to be Christians, can think that this would be acceptable before God and even encourage Bob to do it. You are a stumbling block and let me remind you, if I may, the frightening warning of Jesus for those who cause even the littlest one to stumble: it would be better for them to be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone around their necks.
Non-Christians are much quicker to pick up the hypocrisy of what we so finely justify. I can assure you that non-Christians who get to know that FL claims to have a Christian mission statement, serve the Church and yet distributes and profits from inappropriate material (erotica being but one example) will certainly not be fooled by any of the fine-sounding arguments being made here. They will, and not without cause, be confirmed in their thinking that Christians are a bunch of hypocrites. I have seen this over and over again.
I agree also with the sentiment that has been expressed by several here, that we actually care about Bob and others at faithlife being godly and not engaging in a spiritually harmful way. Many here have already manifested that apparently this should be irrelevant to this community and to Faithlife people as business people and they try to convince the rest of us that it irrelevant indeed. This is crazy sad. I already know as I write this that I am wasting my time with regard to many, maybe most, but I am hoping that there are still some that can wake up from this madness. If you have any care for Jesus, simply answer for yourself this question: what would Jesus say or do?
And, finally, I should point out that even if Faithlife had no ambition of having a Christian identity and mission, it would still be incredibly wrong for Christians to tell them that it is okay for them to distribute material that is dishonoring to God, the Gospel and the Kingdom. What kind of witnesses would we prove to be?
I fear that if with all the books we already have to help us understand the message of the Scriptures we are here, I don't see what benefit it will be to us to have access to many more books.
EDIT: sorry for the typos, I'm tired.
Well said. I wholeheartedly agree.
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Francis said:
With that in mind, I cannot understand how anybody who professes to be Christian and to serve the Church could contemplate distributing immoral material. Jesus, the standard of discipleship, would under no circumstance do such a thing.
In times past on this forum there have been voices trying to limit what is and what is not Christian and thus limiting Logos to a subset of Christianity. We have grown beyond that. and Yes, we have accepted non Christian religious books into Logos. [Islam, Religious book of the far east, etc.]
What if Faithlife did what Logos proposed years ago - Licence the core software to allow it to be used to research anything. Law Libraries, Engineering Libraries, And any other subject that one wishes to research. Unfortunately probably someone would use it to research immoral material but Faithlife would have only built the tool. Others would add the Law books, the Science books and yes, the immoral ones BUT it would not be Faithlife editing, tagging and otherwise preparing those books.
Don't know if Faithlife could pass the ""immoral"" materials over the some immoral group safely. The new Christians burned their books of Magic.
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Al Het said:
This is precisely the input that was being asked for.
I am happy Bob did not ask about hiring homosexuals, agnostics and (oh!) atheists to work for Faithlife. I hate to imagine what some people would say.
Just tell me you don't find anything Faithlife sells to be heretical. Is outright heresy more acceptable than erotica?
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Alain (Maashe), your points are interesting.
I don't buy Zondervan unless I absolutely have to. I don't buy OT for the same reason. I despise FB for the behaviors they encourage. And I do avoid stores that sell stuff I think is inappropriate. Now, I'm not a Christian (as the forum defines it), so obviously my reaction is not a knee-jerk.
I think the mistake is at the beginning ... Bob indeed was an anything goes sort of businessman, judging from Libronix (not to include immoral, etc). I think Bob got himself baptized into the forum faith (without his consent).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Francis said:
As a Christian, I have a vested interest into how Christianity is represented to the world. When a professed Christian is found to be a swindler or perpetrator of sexual abuse, it affects me because it discredits the faith, and more importantly "causes God's name to be blasphemed among the nations".
Agree.
Francis said:With that in mind, I cannot understand how anybody who professes to be Christian and to serve the Church could contemplate distributing immoral material.
Nobody is contemplating distributing immoral material. What everyone (including Faithlife) is trying to do is work out how to licence a publisher's entire collection without having to make questionable material available too. That said, the bible itself contains a whole array of immoral behaviour practiced at one time or another and nobody here objects to the bible as immoral literature. The Church distributes immoral material in the form of the Bible, God's word to us.
Francis said:Jesus, the standard of discipleship, would under no circumstance do such a thing.
Jesus quoted from the Old Testament, a part of the Bible which showcases the immoral material that I previously quoted so I think I'd disagree. In his words, Jesus republishes parts of the Old Testament, and he never argued that the rest of it should be thrown away.
Francis said:I am flabbergasted, but very, very sadly, no longer suprised to see how many fellow users of Bible software, who profess to be Christians, can think that this would be acceptable before God and even encourage Bob to do it.
Many people here have been suggesting ways in which more material could be made available at the same time as avoiding the need to publish literature that would be deemed unacceptable. Indeed, rather than thinking just of illicit material, some of us are thinking about the wealth of riches that are not contained within Logos and which would be made available to those of us who aren't content with Carson, Piper and MacArthur.
Francis said:You are a stumbling block and let me remind you, if I may, the frightening warning of Jesus for those who cause even the littlest one to stumble: it would be better for them to be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone around their necks.
What if the stumbling block is being placed by those who, fearing ungodly influences, are actually preventing new users from accessing the software for majors in non-theological subjects and are thus causing them to miss out on the Christian packages within Logos?
Francis said:I can assure you that non-Christians who get to know that FL claims to have a Christian mission statement, serve the Church and yet distributes and profits from inappropriate material (erotica being but one example) will certainly not be fooled by any of the fine-sounding arguments being made here.
Non-Christians tend to disagree amongst themselves and be as argumentative as Christians. One would expect them to see that considerable efforts had been made by Logos to avoid making certain material available within some publishers catalogues.
Francis said:They will, and not without cause, be confirmed in their thinking that Christians are a bunch of hypocrites.
Sure, Christians can be hypocrites like anybody else. But perhaps such people would see that Faithlife had gone to some effort to avoid marketing anything adult-rated, and were doing their best to make a wide range of literature available such that Logos would be of use to more readers.
Francis said:If you have any care for Jesus, simply answer for yourself this question: what would Jesus say or do?
I think he'd listen to both sides and then write something inscrutable in the dust.
Francis said:it would still be incredibly wrong for Christians to tell them that it is okay for them to distribute material that is dishonoring to God, the Gospel and the Kingdom.
Nobody is actually telling Faithlife that it's ok to distribute material dishonouring to God. Many people have attempting to think up innovative ways to avoid it eg. don't offer 10% of the catalogue or offered distinctions between formal and material co-operation with evil or wondered about charging such exorbitant prices for unacceptable material that nobody would buy it or thought about ways to offer such material, but actually make it nearly impossible to buy, and so on.
Francis said:I fear that if with all the books we already have to help us understand the message of the Scriptures we are here, I don't see what benefit it will be to us to have access to many more books.
That works both ways... if with all the books we already have to help us understand Scripture, we're still here, perhaps we do in fact need more
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Some points to consider:
- Why are users focused on erotica? From the perspective of various users, the books promoting abortion, war, capital punishment, social injustice, magic, heresy ... are equally or more offensive. What is critical is that we know (and teach our children) how to select, read and evaluate all the materials that the world presents to us. I have seen some very sad cases where children were not prepared for college or work because they'd never been allowed to choose their own friends, select their own books and music ...
- Where has the awe of God gone? I never trust the judgment of someone who tells me what Jesus or God would do. The Trinity seems quite capable of acting in surprising ways that only make sense to humans (at least me) in retrospect. And the Trinity seems amazingly good at making something good come out of situations we humans would not expect to be able to produce anything good.
- Are you currently boycotting businesses that sell immoral goods or engage in unethical behavior? Think of the boycott that help bring down apartheid; the bishop who risked jail rather than pay taxes for an unjust war. Do you currently purchase anything from Amazon? Zondervan? Oxford University Press? From my perspective, as long as Logos remains a separate arm of the Faithlife company and maintains integrity within its domain (much like Zondervan), I'm in no position to hold them to different standards than the other companies I deal with.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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If FL went forward with this project I would behave towards FL as I always have. I would buy the books I have interest in and avoid the books I have no use for.
The rubber would meet the road on what effect this project had on the portion of FL I found useful. If the performance of my sphere of interest diminished then I would first make myself heard. If this failed to have the desired result I would reluctantly find an alternative.
My opinion about the project is: What's the point of doing something that has little chance of resulting in a marked influx of income and in the process is going to piss off a goodly number of your customer base?
On the other hand; if this project has the remote chance of improving the overall performance of the main body of the company, then I say it's worth a trial.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
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MJ. Smith said:
Some points to consider:
MJ - As is so often the case, I appreciate your perspective.
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MJ. Smith said:
Why are users focused on erotica? From the perspective of various users, the books promoting abortion, war, capital punishment, social injustice, magic, heresy ... are equally or more offensive. What is critical is that we know (and teach our children) how to select, read and evaluate all the materials that the world presents to us. I have seen some very sad cases where children were not prepared for college or work because they'd never been allowed to choose their own friends, select their own books and music ...
MJ, each of your statements were excellent but I especially appreciate what you said here.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Beloved said:
If FL went forward with this project I would behave towards FL as I always have. I would buy the books I have interest in and avoid the books I have no use for.
The rubber would meet the road on what effect this project had on the portion of FL I found useful. If the performance of my sphere of interest diminished then I would first make myself heard. If this failed to have the desired result I would reluctantly find an alternative.
[Y]
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MJ. Smith said:
Why are users focused on erotica? From the perspective of various users, the books promoting abortion, war, capital punishment, social injustice, magic, heresy ... are equally or more offensive. What is critical is that we know (and teach our children) how to select, read and evaluate all the materials that the world presents to us. I have seen some very sad cases where children were not prepared for college or work because they'd never been allowed to choose their own friends, select their own books and music ...
I was raised in Japan (you know that) in a secular culture. I think it helped me learn how to discern well. Nina and I have tried to raise our children with the same discernment. I have over 22K of resources and imagine I disagree with 75% of them. I have always laid the accountability of choices at the chooser's feet.
MJ. Smith said:And the Trinity seems amazingly good at making something good come out of situations we humans would not expect to be able to produce anything good.
So true.
MJ. Smith said:From my perspective, as long as Logos remains a separate arm of the Faithlife company and maintains integrity within its domain (much like Zondervan), I'm in no position to hold them to different standards than the other companies I deal with.
Same here.
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MJ. Smith said:
Some points to consider:
Almost unreservedly, I concur with how you address these points. I share my additional thoughts.
MJ. Smith said:Why are users focused on erotica?
This followed from Bob Pritchett's example in the initial post.
MJ. Smith said:Where has the awe of God gone?
It sometimes seems that awe has been disinvested of respect and wonder, diminished to stultifying fear.
MJ. Smith said:I'm in no position to hold them to different standards than the other companies I deal with.
With respect to Faithlife it seems the different standard is intrinsic. What's in a name? Does the company mission statement have no bearing on this point?
I appreciate that Mark Barnes and Fr Devin Roza address this.
Mark Barnes said:The question is "Can we serve the church better by significantly broadening our content (even though some of it's questionable), or by keeping our content narrower"?
Fr Devin Roza said:I would hope Faithlife would never end up directly selling morally provocative material (which would probably be what moral scholars sometimes call "formal cooperation with evil" - Google it for some interesting discussions about difficult cases like this, where a distinction between "formal" and "material cooperation" is often made, and can be helpful in discernment).
"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963
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MJ. Smith said:
Why are users focused on erotica?
I am trying to figure that out too... I remember an Australian friend once told me "Thank God we got the criminals and the Yanks got the Puritans." American Christians seem to focus inordinately on sexual matters and ignore the weighty matters of Healing the sick, feeding the poor, clothing the homeless, etc.... I do not mean to attack anyone or group in particular.
-Dan
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Dan Francis said:
Bob Pritchett opened the discussion with an example typifying erotic fiction. The focus derived from this example.
Dan Francis said:I remember an Australian friend once told me "Thank God we got the criminals and the Yanks got the Puritans."
"The attitude which employs labels such as “puritanical” to describe any effort to express restraint in sexual conduct or modesty in attire, while currently “politically correct,” has little basis in fact."
From this webpage: THE PURITAN VIEW OF MARRIAGE SEX DIVORCE AND FAMILY ...
Dan Francis said:American Christians seem to focus inordinately on sexual matters and ignore the weighty matters of Healing the sick, feeding the poor, clothing the homeless, etc.... I do not mean to attack anyone or group in particular.
Or is it possible that those remarking, about American Christians, focus inordinately on sexual matters?
"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963
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