Do you want every ebook in the world in Logos?
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I wonder if it would be possible to put the bulk book distribution in some sort of a ghetto. Could you license the whole catalog, create a new site (apart from Noet or Vyrso) to distribute the whole catalog, and just avoid publicizing or marketing that site? It could be a very basic, no frills site. Then the title that Logos actually wants to promote could be added to a main site—Vyrso or Logos or Noet, depending on the subject matter.
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Mitchell said:
I wonder if it would be possible to put the bulk book distribution in some sort of a ghetto.
[U]
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As a direct descendent of Anne Marbury Hutchinson, with an aunt and niece carrying on the Marbury name, I have my opinion of Puritans. Okay, in the same decade as I was born, Boston finally allowed her back in the "colony".[:P]
But if you think I should forgive and forget, I am also a direct descendent of Rebecca Nurse/Nourse whom Salem didn't treat so well.. Shall I develop a persecution complex?[;)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Mitchell said:
I wonder if it would be possible to put the bulk book distribution in some sort of a ghetto.
If they were to do that I would insist that one book would get premier marketing: Yosl Rakover Talks to God by Zvi Kolitz. BTW I consider ghetto to be an offensive concept - a term reserved for describing some of the worse consequences of humanities failings. However, Kolitz's fiction is a good example of why Logos should offer a broad range of literature.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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JAL said:
Or is it possible that those remarking, about American Christians, focus inordinately on sexual matters?
It is possible and I do become a bit cranky when tired (as well as less self censoring).... I do believe in a holistic view of a person.. All morals (including sexual) are as important as our faith and serving God through others, I have actual had discussions with people including clergy who disagree. God cares about all of us, and even more about our inside as the parables tell us.
-Dan
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Mitchell said:
I wonder if it would be possible to put the bulk book distribution in some sort of a ghetto. Could you license the whole catalog, create a new site (apart from Noet or Vyrso) to distribute the whole catalog, and just avoid publicizing or marketing that site?
This is exactly what I was thinking as well, except that the word I was thinking of was repository. My thought was that this site, while not marketed or advertised in any way, should still include both filtering and sorting capabilities. The licensing might require the ability to buy books directly from this site, but it could definitely be made extremely difficult. [;)] Faithlife could then migrate a curated list of books to Vyrso/Noet. Logos users could also be allowed to request/vote for certain works to be migrated.
I heartily sympathize with those who don't want junk coming at them...I wouldn't even allow Janette Oke books into my home (and wish I had a good way to filter them out on Vyrso)! On the other hand, if Faithlife does everything possible to limit the amount of inappropriate material, my feeling is that the onus is on the end user to make wise purchases.
The point I'd like to drive home is that there are generally ALTERNATIVES! To assume that there are only two options (yes/no) is to be guilty of a logical fallacy.
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David Taylor Jr said:
That answer is simple. The ends do not justify the means.Mark Barnes said:David Taylor Jr said:Would having questionable content fulfill Faithlife's mission statement?
I think that's the wrong question. Bob isn't wanting to have questionable content.
The question is "Can we serve the church better by significantly broadening our content (even though some of it's questionable), or by keeping our content narrower"?
I've been questioning myself as to why I haven't taken that view myself. For what it's worth, I think this is my logic:
- I think that bad theology is more dangerous than bad morality, and I've long come to terms with the fact that Logos has to sell lots of bad theology (some really bad theology). For me, that made the bad morality much less of an issue than it might have been.
- If Amazon sold Logos compatible books, I'd buy them in a flash, without worrying about the morality of what else they sell.
- From the perspective of a user, I simply want to be able to buy more books in Logos format. I'm not interested in fiction or most secular stuff, but things like MacCulloch's A History Of Christianity (published by Puffin). A lot of Church history (or history relevant to church history) is published by secular publishers. From a selfish point of view, I simply want to say to Bob, "Do you you need to do to make that happen".
Following other posts on here, I've asked myself a different question. "If I were Bob, would I want to do this?". And I've got to say that the answer would be "no". And in that sense, I hope he doesn't do it. But then I wouldn't sell popular really bad theology books, either. (If I was in charge of Faithlife, it would probably remain a niche product for evangelicals, perhaps reformed evangelicals. And yet opening up the platform to bad theology has been good for everyone, I think. With bad theology, perhaps the ends have justified the means.)
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Bob Pritchett said:
I need your advice.
Just do it!
Bob Pritchett said:What do you think?
I think you will act with integrity.
"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963
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Mark Barnes said:
Following other posts on here, I've asked myself a different question. "If I were Bob, would I want to do this?". And I've got to say that the answer would be "no". And in that sense, I hope he doesn't do it.
This is encouraging.
Mark Barnes said:But then I wouldn't sell popular really bad theology books, either.
I would have a hard one with this one too although this is, in my view, less straight-forward. Erotica is for entertainment, but reading heretical views held by biblical studies is not for personal edification or enjoyment but for educational purposes. If FL was my church library, I would say 'no', but if it were my seminary, I would say 'yes'. Different purpose, different use, different implications. So, I don't think that your second consideration (you wouldn't sell bad theology) takes away at all from the first.
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I make this into a separate post so that it may not be misconstrued as a continuing response to Mark. It is not. It is however a more general response to those who avoid answering the very precise questions of Christian morality and keep on trying to muddle the issues by blab that circumvents them altogether.
What comes to mind is the story of Balaam. Balaam "consulted" Yahweh and was told clearly His will: do not go with those who are seeking to harm my people. The lure of money and rewards was such that Balaam could not content himself with that answer and in the end did go and was almost slain by the angel of Yahweh on the way. A talking donkey was needed to stay the prophet's madness.
Then he was asked to do something Yahweh did not approve of, curse Israel. Balak proposed to do it anyway. Yahweh answered with an oracle of blessing. Balak tried to change the "perspective," to find a way to get it to work anyway: change your location, nope; only curse a part of the people, nope. All along, Yahweh's will was clear however unsatisfactory it was for both Balak's and Balaam's wants (contrast with Rahab and Ruth).
Even after all this, we find out that Balaam did encourage Balak to continue in that way by advising him to entice the Israelites to idolatry and bring Yahweh's disapproval on them. Those of Yahweh's people who fell for it incurred the vengeance, and so did Balak and his people, and Balaam.
It's in the Bible, it's in Logos. I don't think I need to expand on how this all relates to the topic at hand.
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Deleted - Superfluous
"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963
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Francis said:Mark Barnes said:
But then I wouldn't sell popular really bad theology books, either.
I would have a hard one with this one too although this is, in my view, less straight-forward. Erotica is for entertainment, but reading heretical views held by biblical studies is not for personal edification or enjoyment but for educational purposes. If FL was my church library, I would say 'no', but if it were my seminary, I would say 'yes'. Different purpose, different use, different implications. So, I don't think that your second consideration (you wouldn't sell bad theology) takes away at all from the first.
Heretical views for biblical studies are by no means the only type of bad theology stocked and sold by Logos. The worse books for promulgating heresy (or at least very bad theology) are some of the most popular mass-market 'Christian' books, that are read by millions for personal edification and enjoyment. I wouldn't stock them on my church bookstall, and I wouldn't sell them if I ran a Christian bookshop. But Logos sells them (and books like them), and has done for several years.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
Heretical views for biblical studies are by no means the only type of bad theology stocked and sold by Logos. The worse books for promulgating heresy (or at least very bad theology) are some of the most popular mass-market 'Christian' books, that are read by millions for personal edification and enjoyment.
I agree with you and have certainly found this to be regrettable even as the trend has become stronger as time went by. I wish it were not so. Yet if FL's catalog was expanded in such a way as to include erotica, this would take the problem to new heights. I don't think we can change the current holdings, but it does not mean that we cannot express how repulsive, disappointing and grievous the new direction would be, as well as how objectionable it is in the light of a ministry-oriented company mission statement.
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I'm being terse here because I don't have a whole lot of time to write more, but really, I think with Bob's clarifying comment that they might be able to accept 90% of a publisher's catalog and reject the rest removes most of the moral dilemma and rational basis for concern:
-Rejecting 10% of a catalog should allow FL to eliminate the most objectionable stuff of any particular catalog that is worth carrying.
-Any catalog that is more than 10% junk FL probably wouldn't want to carry anyway.
Also, very much what Mark said:
Mark Barnes said:Heretical views for biblical studies are by no means the only type of bad theology stocked and sold by Logos. The worse books for promulgating heresy (or at least very bad theology) are some of the most popular mass-market 'Christian' books, that are read by millions for personal edification and enjoyment. I wouldn't stock them on my church bookstall, and I wouldn't sell them if I ran a Christian bookshop. But Logos sells them (and books like them), and has done for several years.
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Is the concern that this new store will might offer questionable books for sell or actually sell them? If the concern is that they might actually sell them there are three things Faithlife can do to insure they do not sell them.
1) As Bob has already stated it appears some if not all the publishers will always Faithlife to remove questionable books. There will be a day or two when they will be in the store, because if I have read Bob correctly new books are automatically uploaded into the new store as they become available. This being the case the second step well minimize possible sells until they are removed.
2) All new books are sold at FULL retail price until they are reviewed by Faithlife. Because Amazon rarely sells books at full retail price, most if not all potential purchases will not purchase these books from the new Faithlife store.
3) For the rare book the publisher does not allow Faithlife to remove, Faithlife can add an enormous markup on those books, let’s say $10,000. No one will purchase 50 Shades of Gray if it costs $10,000. If the publisher refuses to allow Faithlife to markup the books, Faithlife could refuse to do business with that particular publisher.
I am sure there are additional ways Faithlife could sabotage sales of questionable books. Perhaps warning pop ups. Maybe a series of 100 popups that will cause the customer to just give up. [:)]
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Keith Larson said:
Is the concern that this new store will might offer questionable books for sell or actually sell them?
That they WILL sell them. Bob made it quite clear that they would have to offer the ENTIRE catalog. It's all or nothing.
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alabama24 said:
That they WILL sell them. Bob made it quite clear that they would have to offer the ENTIRE catalog. It's all or nothing.
He changed his view on this halfway through the thread. He now says 90% is a possibility.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Keith Larson said:
For the rare book the publisher does not allow Faithlife to remove, Faithlife can add an enormous markup on those books, let’s say $10,000. No one will purchase 50 Shades of Gray if it costs $10,000. If the publisher refuses to allow Faithlife to markup the books, Faithlife could refuse to do business with that particular publisher.
Publishers will almost certainly set the prices in a store like this. Only behemoths like Amazon get to dictate pricing on selling eBooks. (Logos.com is different, because Logos is not reselling books, but effectively acting as a co-publisher.)
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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alabama24 said:Keith Larson said:
Is the concern that this new store will might offer questionable books for sell or actually sell them?
That they WILL sell them. Bob made it quite clear that they would have to offer the ENTIRE catalog. It's all or nothing.
As Mark just stated some if not all the publishers have agreed to allow Logos to remove books. I think the period between the automatic uploading and the review period is the area of concern now. As I suggested selling new books at full retail price or even with a very expensive surcharge until they can be removed we discourage any potential purchases.
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Keith Larson said:
As Mark just stated some if not all the publishers have agreed to allow Logos to remove books. I think the period between the automatic uploading and the review period is the area of concern now. As I suggested selling new books at full retail price or even with a very expensive surcharge until they can be removed we discourage any potential purchases.
Has it been clarified exactly what the concern here would be? Is there an opportunity for the following sequence: automatic upload to Faithlife | review by Faithlife and remove the "10%" | offer the "90%" for sale by Faithlife? Or does it have to be: automatic upload to Faithlife | offer "100%" for sale by Faithlife | review by Faithlife and remove the "10%"? If the former is possible, that eliminates the worst scenarios.
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Perhaps Bob can clarify.
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It amazes me the amount of personal attacks and sarcasm people with the viewpoint of morality have received on this thread. It is shameful. And I am especially disheartened that it has come from MVP's as well who should know better.
That being said, the reason it is a big deal with specific to erotica is it is not just fiction but photos also offered by the publishers. If these are included there is a chance that it could pop up in a search, random book, etc, even if it is not purposefully done. That would cause many to stumble. That is wrong.
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Super.Tramp said:
I am happy Bob did not ask about hiring homosexuals, agnostics and (oh!) atheists to work for Faithlife. I hate to imagine what some people would say.
How does this statement help or further the conversation? It is an outright attack on people who dissagree with you. I would question Mr. Pritchett's common sense to ask about hiring practices on a forum like this. What he DID was ask his customers if they would want the company to expand its product in a specific way. Adding to the complexity of this question is that his customers are Christians, and many of them are Pastors. This is a complication, because to expand in the way he asking about would mean having to provide some level of erotic materials, which leads to several other potential objections by some. By the way, the "focus" on erotic material is because it was specifically asked in the question. All of this was right in his question.
I think it is disappointing that you "hate to imagine what some people would say." I would assume that most (or all) people on this forum would respond reasonably. Actually, I'm guessing most people would just wonder why Bob Pritchett would ask such a question.
Super.Tramp said:Just tell me you don't find anything Faithlife sells to be heretical. Is outright heresy more acceptable than erotica?
I can't tell you that I don't find anything Faithlife sells to be heretical. I absolutely do find some of what Faithline sells to be heretical.
"Is outright heresy more acceptable than erotica?" Acceptable to whom? Mr. Pritchett didn't ask me my opinion about offering books that I find heretical. If he did, I would have advised against it. What he DID ask was about expanding the library, if it meant Faithlife had to offer erotic material.
And you might note that my original response to Bob Pritchett's question had nothing to do with erotic material, but with broadening what Logos does even more than it is now. That was my answer about what I would like to see, as a customer.
My response to you was related to how you were attacking people expressing a different view than yours (and somewhat different than mine). You are not addressing their comment, you are morphing their position into something else that you can more derogatorily attack. This is what is called the "straw man fallacy." Doing this makes your argument insignificant, as you are not addressing what others are saying.
Then, to further your personal attacks on people who have answered differently than you, you imply that these people who answer differently than you would somehow provide a reprehensible answer to other questions that were not asked ("hiring homosexuals, agnostics and (oh!) atheists...").
My point was/is, stop unfairly mis-characterizing other people's positions, so you can attack them better, and stop attacking other people, just because they disagree with you.
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David Taylor Jr said:
It amazes me the amount of personal attacks and sarcasm people with the viewpoint of morality have received on this thread. It is shameful. And I am especially disheartened that it has come from MVP's as well who should know better.
That being said, the reason it is a big deal with specific to erotica is it is not just fiction but photos also offered by the publishers. If these are included there is a chance that it could pop up in a search, random book, etc, even if it is not purposefully done. That would cause many to stumble. That is wrong.
I agree to both.
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David Taylor Jr said:
That being said, the reason it is a big deal with specific to erotica is it is not just fiction but photos also offered by the publishers. If these are included there is a chance that it could pop up in a search, random book, etc, even if it is not purposefully done. That would cause many to stumble. That is wrong.
That presumes the user actually purchases the erotica. If I make a covenant with my eyes not to lust after a woman but keep a stash of porn in my library you might rightly question my sincerity. If Bob Pritchett secures a 10/90 deal you won't be able to find erotica for sale.
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This presumes no such thing. I was talking about the store itself, prior to purchase. And the 10/90 deal does not guarantee that. It decreases the likelihood, but does not guarantee which is why my answer is still an emphatic NO.Super.Tramp said:David Taylor Jr said:That being said, the reason it is a big deal with specific to erotica is it is not just fiction but photos also offered by the publishers. If these are included there is a chance that it could pop up in a search, random book, etc, even if it is not purposefully done. That would cause many to stumble. That is wrong.
That presumes the user actually purchases the erotica. If I make a covenant with my eyes not to lust after a woman but keep a stash of porn in my library you might rightly question my sincerity. If Bob Pritchett secures a 10/90 deal you won't be able to find erotica for sale.
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Bob Pritchett said:
Bottom Line: If we could offer every ebook Amazon offers, but only if we did offer every ebook Amazon offers, should we?
No,No,No
Bob Pritchett said:What do we do with a publisher's catalog that includes everything from academic biography to erotic fiction? The same massive publisher that has Timothy Keller's Reason for God also publishes 50 Shades of Grey.
A big No.
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Al Het said:
Mr. Pritchett didn't ask me my opinion about offering books that I find heretical. If he did, I would have advised against it. What he DID ask was about expanding the library, if it meant Faithlife had to offer erotic material.
Just wondering, are you aware of Bob's subsequent post about a 10/90 option? If he secures such a deal this whole argument is moot.
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Ted Hans said:Bob Pritchett said:
Bottom Line: If we could offer every ebook Amazon offers, but only if we did offer every ebook Amazon offers, should we?
Ted, you are late to the party. In a later post Bob said a 90% deal may be attainable where Faithlife could nix 10% of the catalogue.
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David Taylor Jr said:
It amazes me the amount of personal attacks and sarcasm people with the viewpoint of morality have received on this thread. It is shameful. And I am especially disheartened that it has come from MVP's as well who should know better.
It doesn't surprise me because we have such a wide group of users that what is standard vocabulary for one can be offensive for another. For example, some could take offense at your use of "viewpoint of morality" because from their perspective they have taken a moral perspective with a broader view of ethics and hypocrisy. Others would take your phrase as you intended it. Others would say you were inappropriately judgmental not having understood what they wrote - to which you would react appropriately that they were not understanding you.
David Taylor Jr said:That being said, the reason it is a big deal with specific to erotica is it is not just fiction but photos also offered by the publishers. If these are included there is a chance that it could pop up in a search, random book, etc, even if it is not purposefully done. That would cause many to stumble. That is wrong.
I am sad that you have so little trust in your fellow believers and wonder how well they cope in the world. If one is to feed the hungry, visit the prisoners, tend to the sick ... then one has to be able to accept the challenges of being confronted by just about anything .... and still see the face of Christ in the one you assist.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:David Taylor Jr said:
It amazes me the amount of personal attacks and sarcasm people with the viewpoint of morality have received on this thread. It is shameful. And I am especially disheartened that it has come from MVP's as well who should know better.
It doesn't surprise me because we have such a wide group of users that what is standard vocabulary for one can be offensive for another. For example, some could take offense at your use of "viewpoint of morality" because from their perspective they have taken a moral perspective with a broader view of ethics and hypocrisy. Others would take your phrase as you intended it. Others would say you were inappropriately judgmental not having understood what they wrote - to which you would react appropriately that they were not understanding you.
David Taylor Jr said:That being said, the reason it is a big deal with specific to erotica is it is not just fiction but photos also offered by the publishers. If these are included there is a chance that it could pop up in a search, random book, etc, even if it is not purposefully done. That would cause many to stumble. That is wrong.
I am sad that you have so little trust in your fellow believers and wonder how well they cope in the world. If one is to feed the hungry, visit the prisoners, tend to the sick ... then one has to be able to accept the challenges of being confronted by just about anything .... and still see the face of Christ in the one you assist.
You said nothing about the ridiculous personal attacks and sarcasm. But my comments weren't directed towards you so that is ok.
That being said, It has nothing to do with little trust and I am not sure how you could construe my statement as such.
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No it doesn't. That assumes that less than 10% of said publisher's content would contain such material. Are we given that guarantee? No.Super.Tramp said:Al Het said:Mr. Pritchett didn't ask me my opinion about offering books that I find heretical. If he did, I would have advised against it. What he DID ask was about expanding the library, if it meant Faithlife had to offer erotic material.
Just wondering, are you aware of Bob's subsequent post about a 10/90 option? If he secures such a deal this whole argument is moot.
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David Taylor Jr said:
which is why my answer is still an emphatic NO.
For the record: my answer is an emphatic YES on a 10/90 deal.
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You seem to have a very attacking attitude about you. There was no reason for your comment you already told us that and you seem to be trying to antagonize.Super.Tramp said:David Taylor Jr said:which is why my answer is still an emphatic NO.
For the record: my answer is an emphatic YES on a 10/90 deal.
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David Taylor Jr said:
the ridiculous personal attacks and sarcasm. But my comments weren't directed towards you so that is ok.
As one who had interjected some sarcasm (but I hope no personal attacks, please forgive me if I did, I can allow myself to get rilled up at times). I do apologize If I seemed to take this less than seriously.... It feels to me at times we often focus too much attention at minutia. As I said earlier it is my belief Bob would overcome the issues and would not be actually selling erotica. Although I did also point out one Pastor actually did want 50 shades as a tool for outreach (not sure how that would work but I do know it's been done with other popular books).
-dan
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Thanks Dan, I appreciate that.Dan Francis said:David Taylor Jr said:the ridiculous personal attacks and sarcasm. But my comments weren't directed towards you so that is ok.
As one who had interjected some sarcasm (but I hope no personal attacks, please forgive me if I did, I can allow myself to get rilled up at times). I do apologize If I seemed to take this less than seriously.... It feels to me at times we often focus too much attention at minutia. As I said earlier it is my belief Bob would overcome the issues and would not be actually selling erotica. Although I did also point out one Pastor actually did want 50 shades as a tool for outreach (not sure how that would work but I do know it's been done with other popular books).
-dan
I think what Bob said in his initial post is something that shouldn't be ignored:
Bob Pritchett said:Now I love our platform, and would really like to use it for the history, biography, and business books I read on the Kindle (because we don't offer them). But these catalogs are huge -- and include a lot of books I don't want to be associated with.
Now if just one book would be included it would go against what he feels he should do based on this statement. Sometimes as Christians we have to take a stand for what we will or will not do, what we will or will not promote. If just one book makes it into the store that is questionable it is being promoted simply by its presence. Now I don't speak for Bob, obviously, but if he doesn't want to be associated with that there must be a reason. My assumption is that it is either a reason of conscience, reputation or both. If just one of these books makes it in, that would violate that reason.
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IMO I think FL should either offer 100% of the material (without any pricing gimmicks on the questionable items), or none. Forget the 10/90 attempt at appeasement. All or nothing.
Why do I say this? Am I eager to purchase and download 50 Shades or any other piece of debris from the secular press? No, not at all. It is simply a recognition that we, as fallen creatures, are incapable of defining, once and for all, to everyone's complete and total satisfaction, exactly what is or what is not "unacceptable" content. Your standards are not my standards and vice versa - nor am I willing to let anyone else define it for me just as they are not willing to let me define it for them.
So who is capable or willing to draw the line in the sand and say, "That side is the 10%, and the other side is the 90%?" Can you imagine the constant bickering, sniping, name calling, and crocodile tears that will go on in the FL forums, Twitter, Facebook, email, &etc. if that standard is imposed?
You might also try to make the point, "Well what about the appearance of evil &etc. especially in the eyes of the world?" Then I suggest that FL close up shop because they are already selling lots of theologically heretical resources which have an even greater potential for furtively undermining one's pristine, twinkle-dust, mountaintop existence. Far, far more dangerous on a surreptitious level than the in-your-face vulgarity discussed in this thread for the past dozen or so pages.
Bottom line: Why would you want to force a good friend like Bob to have to make such a decision (10/90) and then be in a position where he and FL are constantly having to defend or modify the line that they have drawn? In addition, think for just a second ... is all of that bickering back and forth with FL as to what is or what is not 10% material going to increase or decrease the financial overhead and ultimately the profitability/viability of the company?
Why force FL to try to be the regulating principle in this area of your life? Why not act and think like mature Christians and self-regulate your impulses to view, purchase, and to read questionable materials?
Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
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David Taylor Jr said:MJ. Smith said:David Taylor Jr said:
That being said, the reason it is a big deal with specific to erotica is it is not just fiction but photos also offered by the publishers. If these are included there is a chance that it could pop up in a search, random book, etc, even if it is not purposefully done. That would cause many to stumble. That is wrong.
I am sad that you have so little trust in your fellow believers and wonder how well they cope in the world. If one is to feed the hungry, visit the prisoners, tend to the sick ... then one has to be able to accept the challenges of being confronted by just about anything .... and still see the face of Christ in the one you assist.
That being said, It has nothing to do with little trust and I am not sure how you could construe my statement as such.
"Trust" was apparently not the correct term to communicate the belief that your fellow Christians are able to click past an offensive or irrelevant image. From my perspective God brings forth heroic actions from common people - another click shouldn't be a problem.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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m
This post was in fact the first time I said "Yes" on this subject. I used the same language you used to repeat your opinion. I am sorry you feel you are being attacked when someone disagrees with you.David Taylor Jr said:
You seem to have a very attacking attitude about you. There was no reason for your comment you already told us that and you seem to be trying to antagonize.Super.Tramp said:David Taylor Jr said:which is why my answer is still an emphatic NO.
For the record: my answer is an emphatic YES on a 10/90 deal.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Hey MJ, I sent you a reply via message on faithlife.comMJ. Smith said:David Taylor Jr said:MJ. Smith said:David Taylor Jr said:That being said, the reason it is a big deal with specific to erotica is it is not just fiction but photos also offered by the publishers. If these are included there is a chance that it could pop up in a search, random book, etc, even if it is not purposefully done. That would cause many to stumble. That is wrong.
I am sad that you have so little trust in your fellow believers and wonder how well they cope in the world. If one is to feed the hungry, visit the prisoners, tend to the sick ... then one has to be able to accept the challenges of being confronted by just about anything .... and still see the face of Christ in the one you assist.
That being said, It has nothing to do with little trust and I am not sure how you could construe my statement as such.
"Trust" was apparently not the correct term to communicate the belief that your fellow Christians are able to click past an offensive or irrelevant image. From my perspective God brings forth heroic actions from common people - another click shouldn't be a problem.
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I would love for you to go back and read each reply you have given to something I have written and try to read it from my perspective. You will probably understand how I or anyone else might feel like you are being attacking. Other members have mentioned this about some of your posts as well.Super.Tramp said:m
This post was in fact the first time I said "Yes" on this subject. I used the same language you used to repeat your opinion. I am sorry you feel you are being attacked when someone disagrees with you.David Taylor Jr said:
You seem to have a very attacking attitude about you. There was no reason for your comment you already told us that and you seem to be trying to antagonize.Super.Tramp said:David Taylor Jr said:which is why my answer is still an emphatic NO.
For the record: my answer is an emphatic YES on a 10/90 deal.
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Point of clarity. The Logos ecosystem has the Loeb library, correct? What's the difference between 50 Shades and many of the great Greek plays? Many of the great Greek plays are vulgar are they not?
Vulgar or not they are useful for research and cultural understanding.
I'm inclined to have the whole catalog 50 Shades and all.0 -
JRS, I understand very well what You are saying here, and if there were no standards to be found regarding what should be excluded I would perhaps agree with You, but there are, as has been specified by MJ. Smith: whom I cite further below:
JRS said:IMO I think FL should either offer 100% of the material (without any pricing gimmicks on the questionable items), or none. Forget the 10/90 attempt at appeasement. All or nothing.
[...]
You might also try to make the point, "Well what about the appearance of evil &etc. especially in the eyes of the world?" Then I suggest that FL close up shop because they are already selling lots of theologically heretical resources which have an even greater potential for furtively undermining one's pristine, twinkle-dust, mountaintop existence. Far, far more dangerous on a surreptitious level than the in-your-face vulgarity discussed in this thread for the past dozen or so pages.
Why force FL to try to be the regulating principle in this area of your life? Why not act and think like mature Christians and self-regulate your impulses to view, purchase, and to read questionable materials?
Here's what she posted, I highlighted a few things in the post:MJ. Smith said:Some points to consider:
- Why are users focused on erotica? From the perspective of various users, the books promoting abortion, war, capital punishment, social injustice, magic, heresy ... are equally or more offensive. What is critical is that we know (and teach our children) how to select, read and evaluate all the materials that the world presents to us. I have seen some very sad cases where children were not prepared for college or work because they'd never been allowed to choose their own friends, select their own books and music ...
- Where has the awe of God gone? I never trust the judgment of someone who tells me what Jesus or God would do. The Trinity seems quite capable of acting in surprising ways that only make sense to humans (at least me) in retrospect. And the Trinity seems amazingly good at making something good come out of situations we humans would not expect to be able to produce anything good.
- Are you currently boycotting businesses that sell immoral goods or engage in unethical behavior? Think of the boycott that help bring down apartheid; the bishop who risked jail rather than pay taxes for an unjust war. Do you currently purchase anything from Amazon? Zondervan? Oxford University Press? From my perspective, as long as Logos remains a separate arm of the Faithlife company and maintains integrity within its domain (much like Zondervan), I'm in no position to hold them to different standards than the other companies I deal with.
The list of authors, publishers, stores, goods, and businesses I avoid or even manage to totally boycott, is always going to be large and constantly growing. Making choices is a responsibility. The point is, if I continue to buy from Faithlife for thousands of $ I'm supporting what they do, even the publishers and titles and authors I really don't want to support. Even if I'm being very very selective all the time I'm supporting that they offer lots of books, because they make profit from what I pay them no matter what exactly I buy the grab the $ they've profited and use it to promote, offer and support titles and products I can't stand that they are selling. I've already specified in my previous posts (on page 5 and 10) by offering some examples what that is and could be.
A corporation has to think about costs and amount of labour, that's true. Trying to keep the worst 10% out at all times is tricky and requires manhours. But the community can help, and like I suggested FL can be very discriminative in the first place about which exact publishers to offer and I trust they will be. Faithlife should also run searches in the newly offered books to see if there are an alarming count of words which would be reasons to exclude books - that way they could with some accuracy keep out categories of books, for example ocult (except that Shamanism and Wicca need not necessarily be kept out), Islam, patriotism, how to become a millionaire, seduction techniques, partying, promotion of drug and harmful/addictive substance intakes, certain artists, profanity, and words like: "idiot", "mentally ill", "looser".Disclosure!
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David Taylor Jr said:
I would love for you to go back and read each reply you have given to something I have written and try to read it from my perspective. You will probably understand how I or anyone else might feel like you are being attacking. Other members have mentioned this about some of your posts as well.
I will take the time to re-read my posts in this thread with that in mind. I did not intend to attack others personally. Please give me a little time to complete my review.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Super.Tramp said:
Just wondering, are you aware of Bob's subsequent post about a 10/90 option?
I am aware of it.
Super.Tramp said:If he secures such a deal this whole argument is moot.
It seems that this does have significant bearing on this argument for some, and not for others. I haven't been arguing for or against what Logos should do in this situation since my first email, which even then didn't address the morality issue at all.
My comments since then have related only to how you and others have been mis-characterizing the opposing argument. THAT is still relevant, as long as people who claim Christ are discussing on this forum.
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Thank you I most certainly will.Super.Tramp said:David Taylor Jr said:I would love for you to go back and read each reply you have given to something I have written and try to read it from my perspective. You will probably understand how I or anyone else might feel like you are being attacking. Other members have mentioned this about some of your posts as well.
I will take the time to re-read my posts in this thread with that in mind. I did not intend to attack others personally. Please give me a little time to complete my review.
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Super.Tramp said:
Ted, you are late to the party. In a later post Bob said a 90% deal may be attainable where Faithlife could nix 10% of the catalogue.
Thanks for pointing this out to me. Still I am a bit concerned about the direction FL seems to be going and hope Bob gives due consideration to some of the comments expressed in this thread as I know from experience he does. Hopefully then, as you have pointed out, there is nothing to worry about.
Regards
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Keith Larson said:
Some thoughts:
It seems that there is a need for four book stores:
- Tagged Biblical Research Books = Logos
- Tagged Academic Research Books = Noet
- EPub Christian Books = Vyrso
- EPub General Books = “New Store”
This being the case there need to be a search option at each of the stores to show results from all for book stores. It is already a pain to have to search both Logos and Vyrso to see if I can purchase a Christian book I am interested in.
I dig this.
At the end of the day, a user's Logos library becomes more valuable with every book. I would much rather have the OPTION to buy any book than constantly being frustrated that books my professors are requiring for class aren't available.
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I just reviewed all my interactions in this thread. I found a couple of barbed posts and one straw man but I did not see any attacks on persons, just the issues discussed. Though I do apologize for coming across that way.David Taylor Jr said:
Thank you I most certainly will.Super.Tramp said:David Taylor Jr said:I would love for you to go back and read each reply you have given to something I have written and try to read it from my perspective. You will probably understand how I or anyone else might feel like you are being attacking. Other members have mentioned this about some of your posts as well.
I will take the time to re-read my posts in this thread with that in mind. I did not intend to attack others personally. Please give me a little time to complete my review.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Apology Accepted [:)]Super.Tramp said:
I just reviewed all my interactions in this thread. I found a couple of barbed posts and one straw man but I did not see any attacks on persons, just the issues discussed. Though I do apologize for coming across that way.David Taylor Jr said:
Thank you I most certainly will.Super.Tramp said:David Taylor Jr said:I would love for you to go back and read each reply you have given to something I have written and try to read it from my perspective. You will probably understand how I or anyone else might feel like you are being attacking. Other members have mentioned this about some of your posts as well.
I will take the time to re-read my posts in this thread with that in mind. I did not intend to attack others personally. Please give me a little time to complete my review.
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