Do you want every ebook in the world in Logos?
Comments
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David Taylor Jr said:
personal attacks and sarcasm people with the viewpoint of morality
It seems that your claim to be "people with the viewpoint of morality" is a rather pointed attack directed toward anyone who disagrees with you on this question.
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No that was a misunderstanding. What I was saying was people who are arguing the morality viewpoint of why it should not be included. In other words, saying it shouldn't be included on moral grounds. That being said, not sure why you felt the need to open this back up as it had already been reconciled.Jack Caviness said:David Taylor Jr said:personal attacks and sarcasm people with the viewpoint of morality
It seems that your claim to be "people with the viewpoint of morality" is a rather pointed attack directed toward anyone who disagrees with you on this question.
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David Taylor Jr said:
No that was a misunderstanding. What I was saying was people who are arguing the morality viewpoint of why it should not be included. In other words, saying it shouldn't be included on moral grounds. That being said, not sure why you felt the need to open this back up as it had already been reconciled.Jack Caviness said:David Taylor Jr said:personal attacks and sarcasm people with the viewpoint of morality
It seems that your claim to be "people with the viewpoint of morality" is a rather pointed attack directed toward anyone who disagrees with you on this question.
As I should have expected, you missed my point. I was commenting on you claiming to have "the viewpoint of morality" as if those who disagree with you do so on immoral grounds. I do not believe that those who advocate Logos offering a wider range of resources lack morality, but that is what you imply whether you will admit it or not.
BTW: I stated my caution on this issue very early in this discussion. "Would you be inviting the camel to put his nose into the tent?"
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I explained that was not the intent of the statement and I apologize if you interpreted it that way. However, I would say putting erotic fiction in the store would most definitely be an immoral act.Jack Caviness said:David Taylor Jr said:
No that was a misunderstanding. What I was saying was people who are arguing the morality viewpoint of why it should not be included. In other words, saying it shouldn't be included on moral grounds. That being said, not sure why you felt the need to open this back up as it had already been reconciled.Jack Caviness said:David Taylor Jr said:personal attacks and sarcasm people with the viewpoint of morality
It seems that your claim to be "people with the viewpoint of morality" is a rather pointed attack directed toward anyone who disagrees with you on this question.
As I should have expected, you missed my point. I was commenting on you claiming to have "the viewpoint of morality" as if those who disagree with you do so on immoral grounds. I do not believe that those who advocate Logos offering a wider range of resources lack morality, but that is what you imply whether you will admit it or not.
BTW: I stated my caution on this issue very early in this discussion. "Would you be inviting the camel to put his nose into the tent?"
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An apology is more often appropriate than an explanation and does not necessarily imply concession.
It is good to occasionally go back and read what we have written, trying to understand what others hear in the words.
"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963
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May I suggest that the dispute turn that this thread has taken be abandoned? It is overloading the thread and does not advance the main question. There has been little that has been added to the bottom-line general answers and arguments:
- Some say 'yes' because they see the resulting access as great gain and think that it is either acceptable / realistic for FL to have to distribute materials such as erotica.
- Some say 'yes' also because they see the resulting access as great gain, but with the added element that they believe that there can be some arrangements that either effectively eliminate the offensive material (the 90%-10% approach), make it inaccessible (hiding them, not promoting them, using prohibitive pricing) or reduces the availability of such materials sufficiently to make it a solution they can live with.
- Some say 'no' because they do not believe that it is appropriate for a company that claims to be serving the Church to distribute erotica under any circumstance. They do not believe that the arrangements that have been suggested would eliminate such materials altogether and so they are not real solutions. They also believe that it is wrong for Christian users of the software to encourage a company like FL to take on a venture that will result in distributing such materials.
Although a variety of supporting arguments have been proposed, I believe that this pretty much covers it...
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Francis said:
Although a variety of supporting arguments have been proposed, I believe that this pretty much covers it..
[Y]
I would have anticipated that Bob would have begun with taking on one or two smaller publishers who also had a number of potential number of interesting theological works which would give everyone involved an idea of what it was going to look like, especially the number of really offensive works, and demonstrating that filtering 10% of the total would cover them.
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Francis said:
Some say 'yes' for the same reasons as above but with the added element that they believe that there can be some arrangements that either effectively eliminate the offensive material (the 90%-10% approach), make it inaccessible (hiding them, not promoting them, or using prohibitive pricing) or reduces the availability of such materials sufficiently to make it a solution they can live with.
Francis help me out here, as i must be missing something, obviously i am in the no camp.
Why do you think that the 90%-10% approach does not solve the problem? Is it your understanding that the 90%-10% approach would still mean that FL licensed erotic materials? I have not followed this thread closely.
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Ted Hans said:
Is it your understanding that the 90%-10% approach would still mean that FL licensed erotic materials?
The answer of the proponents of 'no' suggest that they are not interested in a solution that merely reduces how much such material would be distributed by FL. With that in mind, there is skepticism that a 10% clean-up would eliminate it all.
For my part, I am skeptical also about the realism of this arrangement: it opens up the floodgates, as it were, in terms of content since entire catalogs will be dumped at a time, it would require Logos to have the manpower (and matching commitment) to comb the collection effectively at the gate, and finally, it will place Logos staff in the difficult (and most likely controversial) position of having to make constant choices as to whether material is a yea or a nay. This they may do already with regard to suggested resources, but it seems to me that the scenario discussed here is on a much larger scale.
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Thank you Francis for your input, every blessings.
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I hope Bob is still following this thread although it doesn't seem like he's going to respond more times in this particular thread but I'd be happy to get surprised.
IMHO, the one biggest purpose (and it may even be enough if it's the only purpose) to take theology classes (such as semesters in uni seminary) and to research, is to clear misconceptions of all things related and correct errors in one's theology or if done with that correct factual errors such as wrong conclusions.
Like I said early on in this thread (my previous posts are on pages 5, 10, 13) there is no Christian Ethics - as I and MJ. Smith demonstrated there are a number of things Christians don't agree on avoiding thus barely having higher morals than non-believers.
Statistics (Sociology of Religion) in Sweden suggest that Christian youth from smaller protestant denominations than the "liberal-Lutheran" one have high sexual morals (ethics in usual U.S. terminology). So pornography and erotic novels is far from the only concern about the venture into introducing 90% of ebook catalogues.
I've been a Logos customer for 13 years, and most of the time Logos the corporation has not been among the best Bible Study software companies to realize the implications of handing out severely deficient books in terms of their actual content. Tagging and typo-correction is consistent and excellent (even if I prefer Accordance when it comes to that also such as with the drop-down-menu search fields they have and their Göttingen Septuagint Edition typo-correction quality) but Logos distributes and promotes so much misconceptions (for example outdated '90s and '00s books), lack of scholarly research and popular authors in for example base-packages and sermon collections that it's actually frightening. Users should hide what they don't want, true, but I see little reason other than having it as padding and to increase total book counts to distribute some of what's included in base-packages. This is perhaps slightly off-topic but serves to show how Faithlife continues to fail in this area, and my lack of trust that they'll dare to deny "Christian" books from being listed in the Store. And no I'm not referring to public domain since those books are many times the least harmful content even if not always valuable.
No, I don't expect for example accurate history books cheap.
FL has to think carefully are they spreading the interest thin? I think they have been doing exactly that cautiously speaking for at least a year now. The more books are offered the fewer actually excellent, valuable or "historically" unique (as in books that are not re-appearing in a tagged or searchable format unless FL produces them where search functionality is important such as for example encyclopedias) books will ever ship from community pricing and pre-pub.Disclosure!
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Unix said:
IMHO, the one biggest purpose (and it may even be enough if it's the only purpose) to take theology classes (such as semesters in uni seminary) and to research, is to clear misconceptions of all things related and correct errors in one's theology or if done with that correct factual errors such as wrong conclusions.
If I understand you correctly, I respectfully disagree. I never want Logos to "correct" my theology. Which direction would they take me? Catholic/Protestant? Calvinist/Arminian? Pentecostal? SDA? Evangelical? Mennonite? I am responsible for what I read and believe, not Logos.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Unix said:
IMHO, the one biggest purpose (and it may even be enough if it's the only purpose) to take theology classes (such as semesters in uni seminary) and to research, is to clear misconceptions of all things related and correct errors in one's theology or if done with that correct factual errors such as wrong conclusions.
I strongly disagree. The purpose of education, any education, is to provide you with tools to think about, to question intelligently and to apply a particular subject. If also provides a history of thought on a topic so that you don't have to reinvent the wheel or go down erroneous/unfruitful paths. Yes, with these tools we should correct errors in one's theology ... but there is no evidence that occurs. What appears to occur is the development of a desire to correct others' errors in theology. Spiritual discipline and friendships appear more effective in correcting errors in one's own theology.
Logos is a tool that can be used for educational or spiritual discipline ends. But it is just a tool. It is not an education nor a spiritual discipline. This is why I would like to be able to expand my Logos platform to include my logic, philosophy, history, educational theory, literature, system thought, ... books.
BTW I believe that there is a Christian ethics/morality. It's just that many Christians pick and choose which portions they acknowledge - collectively and individually. And many other Christians try to add into Christian ethics that which is merely cultural norms.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
BTW I believe that there is a Christian ethics/morality. It's just that many Christians pick and choose which portions they acknowledge - collectively and individually. And many other Christians try to add into Christian ethics that which is merely cultural norms.
[Y][Y][Y]
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MJ. Smith said:
The purpose of education, any education, is to provide you with tools to think about, to question intelligently and to apply a particular subject.
Yes!
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Thanks, Martha, for responding and guiding me! [:)]
I did say it was my humble opinion. What I was saying was what I think is or should be happening when starting out. When progressing, what You said should happen, also provided that one has an even intelligence. I'm not sure my intelligence is that even and combined with that I think about what I'm interested in many times I haven't been focusing on progressing but on things such as reading reviews, asking for opinions and then shopping books.Then like You said, I'd have to agree perhaps we can only correct (the worst or the most hidden) errors at the stage when progressing further. Yes, I definitely agree that spiritual discipline and friendships are more important in correcting errors in one's own theology, good that You brought that up! [:D] It's pleasant to think about that one can progress that far and in that way!!
The other thing being discussed: well I do believe there definitely is a Christian morals (which is ethics in usual U.S. terminology). But as long as few for example see that we shouldn't eat pork it doesn't feel like Christians are very Biblical. Yesterday I went to the other side of the City with my best friend to a suburb where they have an exhibition of old buildings with furniture and some animals outside, and they had a few pigs (of which I saw only one - unclear if it's the only one left) - a race which has survived over here for 4,500 years and now the one(s) they have over there are the last ones to exist. I started to cry when I read that on the sign:
MJ. Smith said:I strongly disagree. The purpose of education, any education, is to provide you with tools to think about, to question intelligently and to apply a particular subject. If also provides a history of thought on a topic so that you don't have to reinvent the wheel or go down erroneous/unfruitful paths. Yes, with these tools we should correct errors in one's theology ... but there is no evidence that occurs. What appears to occur is the development of a desire to correct others' errors in theology. Spiritual discipline and friendships appear more effective in correcting errors in one's own theology.
Logos is a tool that can be used for educational or spiritual discipline ends. But it is just a tool. It is not an education nor a spiritual discipline. This is why I would like to be able to expand my Logos platform to include my logic, philosophy, history, educational theory, literature, system thought, ... books.
BTW I believe that there is a Christian ethics/morality. It's just that many Christians pick and choose which portions they acknowledge - collectively and individually. And many other Christians try to add into Christian ethics that which is merely cultural norms:
Unix said:IMHO, the one biggest purpose (and it may even be enough if it's the only purpose) to take theology classes (such as semesters in uni seminary) and to research, is to clear misconceptions of all things related and correct errors in one's theology or if done with that correct factual errors such as wrong conclusions.
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Listed below are "snippets" from other posts (in order of appearance) that pretty well sum up my feelings/concerns.
Kendall Sholtess
...I feel that the best route is to create a separate store.MJ. Smith
My inclination would be for separate stores for much the same reason I go to either a Christian bookstore, a University bookstore or a general bookstore...Sean Emslie
It would be great for Faithlife to make an agreement with Amazon to be able to easily turn a Kindle book into a Logos Resource.Reuben Helmuth
I would most like to see a separate store with rigorous filtering/sorting abilities.Francis
If some publishers try to impose the all or nothing approach, I would prefer personally that Logos retains a Christian distinctiveness even if it means less access. The intersection of ethics and business still matters to many of us.One last consideration ...whether it would -- even if you don't intend it -- result in a diluting of sort, a double-mindedness as it were when it comes to focus, and less resources/priority going to the current platform.
Lynden Williams
1. Separate store.
2. Allow the user to select genre when searching and other categories when searching the store and seeing what is displayed on the store front.
3. The store remembers my preferences.
4. Allow me to choose what is downloaded in Logos and what is downloaded in the other app for all the other stuff.
5. I am hoping this option if you go this way, helps lower the cost of Logos books.
6. The quality of Logos books do not suffer.Mark Barnes
I would be quite supportive of a secular version of Vyrso.com, with three provisos:- Entirely separate branding.
- It makes a net contribution to Faithlife.
- Your contracts allow us to send these books to Kindle.
Like most people on here I read secular books. I would prefer them in Logos format, even if all I do is send them to Kindle.
Keith Larson
It seems that there is a need for four book stores:- Tagged Biblical Research Books = Logos
- Tagged Academic Research Books = Noet
- EPub Christian Books = Vyrso
- EPub General Books = “New Store”
This being the case there need to be a search option at each of the stores to show results from all for book stores. It is already a pain to have to search both Logos and Vyrso to see if I can purchase a Christian book I am interested in.
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I would like to see more general Ancient Near Eastern histories in Logos. This seems to be the avenue for that to happen. I like the 90/10 option, but I think people are ultimately responsible for policing their own purchasing. If one is going to find it too great of a temptation, then he or she should not be using the internet, because the internet itself opens one up to all sorts of perversions and heretical ideas. Everyone viewing this site did a cost benefit analysis and decided that even though he or she could be exposed to inappropriate material by using the internet, the benefits outweighed the potential pitfalls. It should be the same with the bookstore, which I also agree should be completely separate from Logos/Vyrso.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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Well, I've carefully held back, hiding my views in the 'shades' of subtle sarcasm. Theology is behaviors that Logos can't search.
But now that the votes are in (shocking all who live in Ireland), I'm pleased as punch to vote for ALL BOOKS. Here's my carefully crafted rationalizing.
1. Bart. Oxford Press. Say no more.
2. Tempting fellow believers, to see if they were elected. Yes, I know. That was not Paul's argument concerning grace. But it seems to be the forum argument, and it makes complete sense.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I barely use search engines, also in order to not to cause unnecessary load on them. I've been prepping to be without internet soon. I have a data cap in the broadband. I can't afford internet I don't pay anything at all for my internet connection. I have barely used social media at all. It's unclear to me how others afford internet all their life? I don't read blogs or journals:
Joseph Turner said:If one is going to find it too great of a temptation, then he or she should not be using the internet, because the internet itself opens one up to all sorts of perversions and heretical ideas. Everyone viewing this site did a cost benefit analysis and decided that even though he or she could be exposed to inappropriate material by using the internet, the benefits outweighed the potential pitfalls.
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Joseph Turner said:
I like the 90/10 option, but I think people are ultimately responsible for policing their own purchasing. If one is going to find it too great of a temptation, then he or she should not be using the internet, because the internet itself opens one up to all sorts of perversions and heretical ideas. Everyone viewing this site did a cost benefit analysis and decided that even though he or she could be exposed to inappropriate material by using the internet, the benefits outweighed the potential pitfalls.
Very good Joseph.
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As long as it doesn't have the phrase "Jesus Calling®" in the title.
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Denise said:
Well, I've carefully held back, hiding my views in the 'shades' of subtle sarcasm.
Denise use sarcasm? Wow, that is hard to believe! [;)]
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Joseph Turner said:
I would like to see more general Ancient Near Eastern histories in Logos. This seems to be the avenue for that to happen. I like the 90/10 option, but I think people are ultimately responsible for policing their own purchasing. If one is going to find it too great of a temptation, then he or she should not be using the internet, because the internet itself opens one up to all sorts of perversions and heretical ideas. Everyone viewing this site did a cost benefit analysis and decided that even though he or she could be exposed to inappropriate material by using the internet, the benefits outweighed the potential pitfalls. It should be the same with the bookstore, which I also agree should be completely separate from Logos/Vyrso.
This has been my position and thoughts for some time. Thanks for expressing it in your words.
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Maybe they could call the store alllife.com, fallenlife.com or perhaps better - reallife.com?
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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[:D] That illustrates it very well! (I already specified in one of my previous posts (I've been posting on pages 5, 10, 13, 14) that I'm against a separate storefront):
John Goodman said:Maybe they could call the store alllife.com, fallenlife.com or perhaps better - reallife.com?
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Unix said:
That illustrates it very well! (I already specified in one of my previous posts (I've been posting on pages 5, 10, 13, 14) that I'm against a separate storefront): John Goodman said:Maybe they could call the store alllife.com, fallenlife.com or perhaps better - reallife.com?
Generally I feel the same way... but while they may get away with it in Vyrso (relabeling it a book store, not a Christian Book store), I am sure some people would put up a big deal about having books they consider an attack on their faith being sold in Logos/Verbum fronts. While I do not follow Richard Dawkins The God Delusion conclusion (to be honest i have never fully read it) this book should be allowed in a secular store front and is important in my mind for forming a response. Yet books like this appearing in Logos/Verbum store sight in my mind is highly provocative to put it mildly.
-Dan
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Dan Francis said:Unix said: That illustrates it very well! (I already specified in one of my previous posts (I've been posting on pages 5, 10, 13, 14) that I'm against a separate storefront): John Goodman said:
Maybe they could call the store alllife.com, fallenlife.com or perhaps better - reallife.com?
Generally I feel the same way... but while they may get away with it in Vyrso (relabeling it a book store, not a Christian Book store), I am sure some people would put up a big deal about having books they consider an attack on their faith being sold in Logos/Verbum fronts. While I do not follow Richard Dawkins The God Delusion conclusion (to be honest i have never fully read it) this book should be allowed in a secular store front and is important in my mind for forming a response. Yet books like this appearing in Logos/Verbum store sight in my mind is highly provocative to put it mildly.
-Dan
[Y]
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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Surely you jest (and, no, I didn't call you Shirley [I know, old joke]). You would almost certainly go broke doing that since there are many, many, many books that the faith community would never purchase. When I go to a store I go directly to the area where the item I want is to be found and make a bee-line to the checkout so I don't do a lot of browsing. In other words I tend to agree with MJ.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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A few thoughts:
1. I am intrigued by the motivations of those posters who just keep on repeating ad nauseum the same things. It would be fine if there were new insights that advance the conversation, but it does not seem to have been the case. It seems that the turn that some of these discussions have taken would be -- in normal circumstances -- the kind of conversations that these very posters would say belong on faithlife. My question to you is whether you would like those who hold the opposite point of view to do the same and keep on hammering their (same) arguments? I guess what I am asking is what would be a productive way for this discussion to progress or is it really already exhausted though perhaps some refuse to admit that it is so?
2. I am seeking to imagine the future if FL broadens its distribution as discussed in this thread. In my opinion, this very discussion illustrates what has already taken place as FL has already considerably widened its audience and offerings. The constituency of these forums is deeply divided over very fundamental issues and there is bound to be some alienation worsening even as one path is favored over another. By alienation I mean that FL has cultivated a greater investment in its users than say, Amazon. We don't buy packages from Amazon, have an integrated system of notes, etc. There is very good cause for users to feel that significant changes to the software (as has already been pointed out in other discussions) is no trifle for them. So, what would it be if FL so diversifies its offerings and audiences that the interests of the majority shifts even more, and I would say -- if it succeeds as it wishes in attracting lots of students of other subjects than biblical studies -- even further away from Christian values and a ministry perspective? What will happen when Bob asks again in the future input about other decisions? It seems to me that the alienation can only grow worse and some who now are in favour of going that direction may come to regret it when they find themselves in a larger company of those who want to go places that go well beyond what they had in mind.
3. I am also puzzled by the phenomenon of posters who profess Christian values yet have yet to respond to the most basic questions that have been asked by the proponents of no, myself included: (1) Do you think it right for a Christian to encourage another party to undertake distribution of materials such as erotica? (2) Do you think that finding such materials in the webstore of a company that presents itself as having for mission statement to serve the Church results in a good/pure testimony to the world? (3) Do you care about whether this is morally/ethically right for Bob and other FL people to do this or when you say the benefits outweigh, you mean that the educational benefits are of greater import to you than the spiritual liabilities? (4) Would Jesus as we can know Him from the Scriptures say 'yes' or 'no'? And does this matter to you? This admittedly, are also faithlife type of questions and so, I am not necessarily inviting a continuing debate here. I am just, if some of you may allow me to do so, asking you if you have answered these questions for yourself. I am also conscious that in this point I have also repeated previous points, making myself open to the criticism that I do what I reproach in point 1. However, I think there is a difference: those who say 'no' have never contested the idea that there would be educational, perhaps even edificatory value to a number of books that could be gained if FL could distribute more books. We are not arguing around your points but saying that the ethical aspects are more important than pragmatism. But I feel that your arguments circumvent the points/questions we have brought on.
There we go for another round... what will it be: real answers or more circumventing?
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Surprised that this thread is still alive and fifteen pages deep.
Use the Vyrso store as an example.
1. You can filter what you are looking for.
2. The free stuff (mainly novels) are not on the home page.
3. The site including logos.com already publishes material that some people object to. The 90 10 principle sounds like something I can live with.
4. Yes some material may slip through.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Thanks Francis for trying to bring some sort of summary of things from your perspective and try to articulate the questions in your mind. Let me take a few minutes to respond to your specific questions with my personal perspective.
Francis said:(1) Do you think it right for a Christian to encourage another party to undertake distribution of materials such as erotica?
No, I do not but I recognize that this issue is not as cut and dry as it seems to some. Where the issue is grey is whether this would be the case. I'm hoping that the 90/10 will eliminate most, if not all of this.
Francis said:(2) Do you think that finding such materials in the webstore of a company that presents itself as having for mission statement to serve the Church results in a good/pure testimony to the world?
Again, it is my hope that most of this material would not actually be offered because of the 90/10. Specifically answering the question, I actually don't think that most of the world even cares about this. I'm not saying that as an excuse but more as a fact. I think the issue is not as much the world stumbling on materials that are not appropriate.If there was a concern I would think it might be a weak Christian stumbling as a result of doing some sort of search. But again the 90/10 distribution is key. Personally there is already material offered by Faithlife that I think could also cause people to stumble - things I believe are heresy. Even though there is some risk with them being offered I'm okay with this because not all of us hold the same opinions.
Francis said:(3) Do you care about whether this is morally/ethically right for Bob and other FL people to do this or when you say the benefits outweigh, you mean that the educational benefits are of greater import to you than the spiritual liabilities?
I do care about the moral/ethical part of this decision. But, I've also learned in life that many things are not black and white or right and wrong. There is grey and differences of opinion. This decision is up to them and I pray that they will make the best one possible given all the facts.
Francis said:(4) Would Jesus as we can know Him from the Scriptures say 'yes' or 'no'? And does this matter to you?
I must confess that I don't know what He would do. Jesus never owned a business or ran a company like Faithlife so we can only try to apply principles of Scripture to imagine what He would do. From Scripture we also know that Jesus was often misunderstood by others who encountered Him. As I said above, life is filled with grey issues that do not have simple answers. I believe that this is one of those areas. I think Bob knew this too and thus he started this thread and that's why he wanted our feedback.
I hope that my response is helpful.
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Well, now, Bruce. Since you have some appreciation for humor ...
1. Jesus was a businessman originally. Operated a home improvement service (or maybe his earth-dad depending on the manuscript).
2. When he went on sabbatical for almost 7 weeks, he met a guy who was offering a wide range of wares, hoping Jesus would buy at least one. Jesus said his Dad trained him better than that, and the guy shouldn't be selling those wares.
3. It was likely a guy. Women weren't impressed with kingdoms.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Agreed, but I thought you were talking about one side of the fence until I read further and discovered it was the opposite side you were referring to! [;)]Francis said:I am intrigued by the motivations of those posters who just keep on repeating ad nauseum the same things
You claim to not have received any response "to the most basic questions." While I have to say that the "questions" of some on this thread seem more like polemics than sincere questions, I will provide a surface response to your surface questions:
Francis said:(1) Do you think it right for a Christian to encourage another party to undertake distribution of materials such as erotica?
No.
Francis said:(2) Do you think that finding such materials in the webstore of a company that presents itself as having for mission statement to serve the Church results in a good/pure testimony to the world?
No.
Francis said:(3) Do you care about whether this is morally/ethically right for Bob and other FL people to do this or when you say the benefits outweigh, you mean that the educational benefits are of greater import to you than the spiritual liabilities?
Of course I/we care whether it's morally right.
Francis said:(4) Would Jesus as we can know Him from the Scriptures say 'yes' or 'no'? And does this matter to you?
Of course this matters to us as well.
A couple quick thoughts...
Very few who have actually engaged in the conversation have given an UNCONDITIONAL "yes."
Those who have voted "no" have generally done so in absolute or even irrationally impassioned terms.
Just because A+B=C does not automatically mean that A=C! I would say that this is the main underlying logical fallacy that is giving birth to the "questions" that are used as polemics.
I considered providing a rational response to each question that you asked, addressing what I see as the key term that is fundamentally flawed in its logic (underlined in the quotes), but I'm sick of the dispute and wish that an administrator would lock it!
I think I speak for the majority of the "yes" group when I say:
I'd like to see Faithlife exploring this option with an eye to eliminating the possibilities of bringing reproach to the name of Christ, both directly or indirectly. The reason I believe the questions above are "flawed" is because I believe that it would be possible to achieve this.
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Unix said:
I barely use search engines, also in order to not to cause unnecessary load on them.
Oh how generous of you. Thanks to your restraint, Google is probably inifinitessimally faster for all the rest of us. [;)] Seriously, I don't think concern about load on the search engines is a reason to refrain from using them. They've got loads of bandwidth.
Unix said:It's unclear to me how others afford internet all their life?
Do you mean "afford" as in financial cost or time? It's not that expensive for most people, relative to their income. And people budget their time differently depending on their priorities. For many people, being able to use the internet for searching and staying on top of the news and topical blogs is important for their jobs, and staying connected socially is important for their emotional health, so they prioritize internet over other things.
Unix said:I don't read blogs or journals:
But you read the Logos forums, and that can be just as much of a time sink. [:)]
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I haven't read all of the preceding posts so I confess my views may have been expressed by others. But I wondered if Logos did start providing other books, is there not a danger that, with time, the majority of Logos users would one day be non-Christians and that the focus of Logos be shifted from providing Christian books to catering for the most profitable market aka non-Christians?
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Paul Chatfield said:
I haven't read all of the preceding posts so I confess my views may have been expressed by others. But I wondered if Logos did start providing other books, is there not a danger that, with time, the majority of Logos users would one day be non-Christians....
And how cool would that be, providing Scripture and Christian literature to those who may not have it!
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Lew Worthington said:Paul Chatfield said:
I haven't read all of the preceding posts so I confess my views may have been expressed by others. But I wondered if Logos did start providing other books, is there not a danger that, with time, the majority of Logos users would one day be non-Christians....
And how cool would that be, providing Scripture and Christian literature to those who may not have it!
Do you really think that is what would happen? Is there not scripture and Christian literature on Amazon? How much attention do they give it? While I don't object to Logos carrying non-scripture related works (indeed, I want them to carry such things as histories, language tools, philosophers, great literature, etc), I don't think we should get too far astray.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Lew Worthington said:
Dream on. Faith related books would be but a single drop in the ocean of other offerings.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:Lew Worthington said:
Dream on. Faith related books would be but a single drop in the ocean of other offerings.
As long as Logos Bible Software and its related content continue to develop and the price comes down, I am not too concerned about the direction that Faithlife heads. Logos Bible Software just needs to continue on its present trajectory, operate as a separate entity and I am good with that.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Paul Chatfield said:
I haven't read all of the preceding posts so I confess my views may have been expressed by others. But I wondered if Logos did start providing other books, is there not a danger that, with time, the majority of Logos users would one day be non-Christians and that the focus of Logos be shifted from providing Christian books to catering for the most profitable market aka non-Christians?
Yes, in the long term that is a very real danger.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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A post from Bob in 2022.
Well, here I am again seeking your feedback. As you know, seven years ago we have made a major transition to full distribution of large catalogs from numerous publishers. Thanks to this decision we have since welcomed many of you who are reading me now to the Research Systems family of products. And of course, this has also meant that we have been to offer more to those who have supported us during the Libronix/Logos/Faithlife phases of development. It has been an exciting journey! We must also recognize that these wonderful developments have brought about important changes to our customer base and we now need to make further decisions for the benefit of the greater community of users and the future of our company. For a number of years, our market was pretty much limited to the Christian niche and the discipline of biblical studies/divinity. Ninety-five percent of our research and development and one hundred percent of our holdings reflected this. At this point in our history however, it is no longer justifiable to invest so many resources and mobilize so much staff toward what is now a minority portion of our customer base. It is not fair to the eighty percent plus customers who are asking us for more innovative tools to exploit their resources in multiple mainstream educational disciplines. From a business standpoint, the present situation does not make sense either: what used to be Logos Bible Software has now dropped to 14% of our revenues. It looks like we might have to downsize the staff and reduce the resources of Logos Bible Software. We will need to acknowledge what has been a great phase of our company history and, with many thanks to those who supported us through all these years, also recognize that it makes sense for us to continue in the logic of our trajectory to deliver the best products for the most people. Of course, there will continue to be new offerings of Christian books though over time most of them would probably be available on Vyrso. What do you think?
[ You can guess what the "majority" answer would be ]
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Francis said:
A post from Bob in 2022.
I find this post to be insulting and way over the top. Your implication that Bob is dishonest and morally corrupt is uncalled for.
No one on this thread has advocated that FL sell erotica, and frankly I am getting tired of the holier-than-thou attitude of those who keep claiming that those saying "yes" to Bob's original—and revised—question are advocating this.
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Well, at least Francis gave Logos 7 more years. In corporate land such a large jump in strategy is preening the company for a merger. As Bob already pointed out Amazon already owns the customers under discussion.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963
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Denise said:
In corporate land such a large jump in strategy is preening the company for a merger.
Denise I usually find your skeptical remarks a much needed breath of fresh air. In this case it seems as if you are gratuitously fanning the flames.
"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963
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JAL said:Denise said:
In corporate land such a large jump in strategy is preening the company for a merger.
Denise I usually find your skeptical remarks to be a breath of fresh air. In this case it seems as if you are gratuitously fanning the flames.
Perhaps — but on the other hand … So long as Logos remains in its current hands I feel confident, but if not …
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Jack Caviness said:
Your implication that Bob is dishonest and morally corrupt
I did not imply such a thing. I described a scenario that is in line with a business-oriented trajectory. It is only a fiction that is intended to stimulate reflection about what could be longer term results of that trajectory.
Jack Caviness said:No one on this thread has advocated that FL sell erotica
When Bob asks whether he should make a decision that might result in FL selling erotica and you say yes, you are advocating something that can have the same end result. Why is there any debate here otherwise? Has Bob committed to never selling any if it came through the catalog? Has he? No, he asked precisely about the possibility that this could happen!!! What of the 90-10 possibility: do you know that this will work with all publishers? Do you know that this will eliminate all erotica? No, you can't and you don't. Yet, you are still saying yes. In a court of law I don't think any jury would accept that someone is not liable who recommended a course of action that they knew could lead to injury and it did, just because they hoped it wouldn't.
As for calling me someone with a holier-than-thou attitude, I am a bit disappointed that you say this and will assume that this is just an uncharacteristic response in the heat of the moment. I do not think that I am holier than you because I don't even think that I am holy, if you must know. But I express real fears that are based on real experiences of what I have seen happening in organizations that started with a clearer sense of Christian vocation and went more and more the secular business route. My comments regard the potential decision. I do not know you, or Bob, nor any other posters in this thread.
JAL, I am sad that I saddened you. I hope that what I wrote above makes more sense, but if not, enlighten me as to what in what I wrote implies that Bob is dishonest and morally corrupt (Jack too if you'd like). I will give it due consideration as I did not and do not intend to take shots.
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I am afraid Francis is correct. "All" is all — no exceptions. I don't know how you get around that.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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