Do you want every ebook in the world in Logos?
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"Robert Gundry’s now classic survey of the New Testament has been a mainstay for college and graduate courses around the world, having been used by thousands of professors and students."
This book is available as a Logos edition for US$ 39.99, OliveTree sells a version for US$ 38.99, and there is a Kindle version that is marketed as enhanced, including audio and video content, selling for US$ 38.99.
Price doesn't seem determinative as a predictor of student preference here. Yes, I realize a single example doesn't make a solid case.
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Does anyone else remember Versaware/Versabooks. Versaware Technologies partnered with many major publishers but was a short-lived company (1997 - 2001). They raised US$ 40 million in venture funding according to one source. The platform, Versaware, was pretty good in its day. I thought they might outlast Logos Research Systems.
I still use the "Oxford Classical Dictionary" from OUP in Versaware.
This came to mind because I have to rebuild a Windows VM to support Versaware.
"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963
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alabama24 said:
I don't see students paying the Logos premium for ebooks when they could purchase the book much cheaper on Amazon.
Depends on the needs and requirements of the student.
A lot of the Noet and Logos resources are in the public domain, and therefore incredibly cheap or even free on Kindle.
It's the integration you pay for.
When I was a student, I must have spent more than $1000 on Logos - and I didn't even need it for my degree, but for my Christian Union work. At that time, that was a massive expense for me. Several months' savings overall, but distributed over 4 years or so.
The Logos/Noet edition have some clear benefits compare to cheap paperback books or free Kindle editions, and I believe students would pay for them according to their personal budget and priorities.
Now it's up to FL to get the message across specifically to students (which I've not really seen happening since I first became their customer in 2001), and to give them some incentive to at least have a look at Logos (trial access, student discounts, free resources for students etc.)
Students have been quite neglected as a target group I believe. I found out about Logos (Libronix back then) through a special offer at Wesley Owen (something like 1000 resources for 30 pounds). Not specifically targeted at students at all. Though highly convincing about the integration concept, and at a very student-friendly price.
In fact, between 1999 and 2005, I never received anything about Logos through the "standard channels" aimed at Christian students in general (in Europe - it might have been different in the US...)
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JAL said:
The choice may be mandated. In order to make use of tools required for class participation there may not be a choice.
I don't see Harvard mandating Logos. If we are talking about seminaries, sure... but that isnt what we are talking about. We are talking about new markets.
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Jan Krohn said:
A lot of the Noet and Logos resources are in the public domain, and therefore incredibly cheap or even free on Kindle.
It's the integration you pay for.
I would love to have had Logos while I was a student... and I would likely have been willing to pay an extra amount... but again, I see the benefit in an integrated library. Religion and Seminary students may see the benefit as well... the problem I see is the new market. I don't see any significant group of (non religion/seminary) students willing to pay a premium for books. To the contrary, the cheaper the better. eBook rentals are growing rapidly.
As for Noet... I don't know if I see any benefit in it at all. Is there something I am missing? If I needed those resources, why wouldn't I just grab a public domain copy and make it a personal book! Are there any real benefits to having a "Noet" edition?
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Hi Bob,
it's very humble of you to ask.
i would encourage you to think and pray long and hard before taking that step.
I have seen your focus being to equip the church and a godly heart beneath that motivating it.
It seems you would end up marketing materials that go drastically against that virtuous goal.
I can't see that ending well, just to be honest.
Praying for you as you look at this decision.
David Mitchell
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Thank you, everyone, for the feedback.
I think we've gotten as much value as we're going to get from the debate.
My summary:
I chose '50 Shades' as an example because it was the most objectionable title I could think of from a 'major' publisher (and, due to its recent massive cultural impact, probably an example everyone would understand the content of without having read it).
I'm sorry if that choice took the discussion off-track, though it does seem to have accomplished the purpose of staking out the extremes of the relevant issues.
I think I have the feedback we need to make the upcoming decisions.
My ruminations: (just thinking out loud... not part of the discussion)
I have a habit of overstating things because I hate disappointing people. If I want someone to take 10 minutes to help me move a couch, I'd ask for help and warn it could take an hour. I wrote a book that takes a matter-of-fact position on the important of firing people who aren't working out in their job. In reality, I still probably try too hard, for too long, to find a way to make things work before letting someone go.
I repeatedly remind people that we're running a business, not a ministry, but in reality service to the church motivates us daily and shapes all our long-term plans.
I try to set expectations such that I'll never disappoint people. Of course I constantly disappoint people, because people always bring their own expectations into the equation -- but I like to think that they'll never be able to point to a promise I made that I failed to deliver on.
I don't know that this is working for me, and I'm giving serious thought to changing my model. Because I thought I'd get judged for my actions -- which would always be better than people expected, and never worse than what I'd led people to believe. But in daily practice the judgement seems to be based on fantastical extrapolations from things I say and haven't even done yet (or ever).
People who haven't read Fire Someone Today think I advocate -- and practice -- arbitrary firing of people. I haven't even licensed 'all the books in the world' yet and there's discussion of how we might be bringing photos from erotic books into the search results when pastors are doing sermon prep, and abandoning our core mission to take advantage of our much larger sales in non-biblical studies. Huh? Why would we ever do that? What in our 24 year history makes anyone think we'd allow that?
(I do appreciate the confidence in our platform, though! Even I don't believe we'll be beating the Kindle in the general book market... our strength is specifically in biblical studies...)
Well, I guess I know the answer: I said something scary, and people took the (quite sensible) position that if I'd say something as crazy as 'X', then 'Y' and 'Z' were probably right behind. Even if I till this point the worst I ever did was 'C'.
I've noticed that lots of other companies (and people) talk in less-scary terms, but don't always act the way they talk. But it seems to work better as a public relations strategy. Of course they take a huge amount of heat, too -- just after they disappoint. Not before, like I get it.
I'm still not sure which is better. :-)
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Francis said:
the possibility that you may have to sell something like 50 Shades of Grey, yes or no?
Well, the answer is "no". Fifty shades was among the worst things that a 'nomal' publisher published, so it was an example. But this would easily fall within the 10 percent margin, so never end up in Logos.
Bob, I truly and deeply appreciate your approach to things and your way of introducing them. It makes me feel respected as a costumer of this company, Thanks!
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Bob Pritchett said:
I have a habit of overstating things because I hate disappointing people. If I want someone to take 10 minutes to help me move a couch, I'd ask for help and warn it could take an hour.
Interesting approach, but in this case it may have created needless anxiety among the Logos FL community [8-|]
With this explanation, I can now say "Go for it"
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Bob Pritchett said:
I don't know that this is working for me, and I'm giving serious thought to changing my model. Because I thought I'd get judged for my actions -- which would always be better than people expected, and never worse than what I'd led people to believe. But in daily practice the judgement seems to be based on fantastical extrapolations from things I say and haven't even done yet (or ever).
I think that people judge both actions and words. Personally, over my life I've been wrong so many times about how people appear to me in both their actions and words that now I try to make every effort not to judge. Rather I find it works much better to respond to people with questions than with statements and, as the discussion continues, clarification comes. Doing this helps minimize the times I'm left with "egg on my face" about an issue.
Bob, for what is it is worth I have always had confidence in the final decisions you have made because I've seen you consistently make excellent ones over the past couple of decades. May God continue to give you the wisdom you need to run an excellent business for the glory of God.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Bob Pritchett said:
I haven't even licensed 'all the books in the world' yet and there's discussion of how we might be bringing photos from erotic books into the search results when pastors are doing sermon prep, and abandoning our core mission to take advantage of our much larger sales in non-biblical studies. Huh? Why would we ever do that? What in our 24 year history makes anyone think we'd allow that?
Did someone really say that? The problem with a thread like this: It is impossible for most people to read everything that gets posted and to follow the "discussion." I know that I wrote about the possibility of FL carrying porn... but that was based on your original post when you said that you would have to carry EVERYTHING by the publisher.
I never had any doubts of your integrity. In the weird world that we live in today where we "know" people we have never met, I believe you to be of highest integrity. My assessment is based upon your interactions in the forums, and not because you are the CEO of a "christian" business. Anyone who suggests otherwise hasn't gotten to "know" you.
There have been many "yes" and "no" posts to mull over. Some users wanted to lump every "yes" or "no" answer into two monolithic groups... but they were not. I saw more than 50 shades of grey in each camp. [:P] As a consumer who wants access to a growing catalog, my answer was "yes." As someone who saw some pitfalls, I changed my recommendation to "no" because I wouldn't do it. After some of your revision posts, my answer is probably a firm "maybe." [:D]
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alabama24 said:Bob Pritchett said:
I haven't even licensed 'all the books in the world' yet and there's discussion of how we might be bringing photos from erotic books into the search results when pastors are doing sermon prep, and abandoning our core mission to take advantage of our much larger sales in non-biblical studies. Huh? Why would we ever do that? What in our 24 year history makes anyone think we'd allow that?
Did someone really say that?
There were at least these posts:
David Taylor Jr said:That being said, the reason it is a big deal with specific to erotica is it is not just fiction but photos also offered by the publishers. If these are included there is a chance that it could pop up in a search, random book, etc, even if it is not purposefully done. That would cause many to stumble. That is wrong.
Bruce Dunning said:I think the issue is not as much the world stumbling on materials that are not appropriate.If there was a concern I would think it might be a weak Christian stumbling as a result of doing some sort of search.
I think Bruce was referring to searching the store website, not searching in Logos. David may have been saying that too. Perhaps Bob has misunderstood?
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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This quoted post sums up my feelings pretty well.Dan Francis said:Jacob Hantla said:Bob, I personally would be for it, as long as you don't have to sell your soul to get them.
The more books that I can get in my library the better, and the larger the audience.
I would way rather send my money to faithlife than Amazon any day.
Bob if you find a way to do it that you are comfortable with, then I trust you. You are as committed to the Lord as anyone else here. As I've said in other things - I trust you.
You have always done right by me, and have been more than generous in a number of things. You always put us (the customer) first - even when it sometimes is against policy.
That is why I've invested 4 (maybe almost 5 by now...) figures and purchased over 10,000 books. I'm not going away anytime soon, even if you start a dating app. *chuckle*
Blessings!
Edited because I can't count apparently.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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I guess I missed the issue somehere in the first post. The question posed a large library coming in, and a potential inability to control the title mix. That was followed by 'maybe control 10%'. And this generated some interest from the Christian community. Far less than the comments at our church, I might add.
Then the last post by the OP basically expressed some surprise. Huh? Now, we just got back from a great geology run, complete with 4 billion year old rocks. We're not theologically bashful. But I do feel sorry for some folks on the conservative perspective that thought the OP was serious. Well, he did hire someone to run a dating game not long ago.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Yes Mark, I was referring to the store. Thanks for clarifying.Mark Barnes said:alabama24 said:Bob Pritchett said:I haven't even licensed 'all the books in the world' yet and there's discussion of how we might be bringing photos from erotic books into the search results when pastors are doing sermon prep, and abandoning our core mission to take advantage of our much larger sales in non-biblical studies. Huh? Why would we ever do that? What in our 24 year history makes anyone think we'd allow that?
Did someone really say that?
There were at least these posts:
David Taylor Jr said:That being said, the reason it is a big deal with specific to erotica is it is not just fiction but photos also offered by the publishers. If these are included there is a chance that it could pop up in a search, random book, etc, even if it is not purposefully done. That would cause many to stumble. That is wrong.
Bruce Dunning said:I think the issue is not as much the world stumbling on materials that are not appropriate.If there was a concern I would think it might be a weak Christian stumbling as a result of doing some sort of search.
I think Bruce was referring to searching the store website, not searching in Logos. David may have been saying that too. Perhaps Bob has misunderstood?
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No one likes a NOET all. [:P]
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I would love the idea of having the ability to add all books I want to Logos, if
- A new store/website is created. I wouldn't like the idea of having to find my way through a lot of non christian books on logos.com / vyrso.com
- If Logos offers something to compete with the Kindle e-readers. Reading books is best done on a e-reader with a e-ink display. So, Logos should choose one or more Android driven e-readers and commit to long term support to a Logos app on those e-readers.
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Simon said:
If Logos offers something to compete with the Kindle e-readers. Reading books is best done on a e-reader with a e-ink display. So, Logos should choose one or more Android driven e-readers and commit to long term support to a Logos app on those e-readers.
Are you unaware of the L6 "send to kindle" feature?
if you are talking about a full android app... There is already one of those too.
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alabama24 said:Simon said:
If Logos offers something to compete with the Kindle e-readers. Reading books is best done on a e-reader with a e-ink display. So, Logos should choose one or more Android driven e-readers and commit to long term support to a Logos app on those e-readers.
Are you unaware of the L6 "send to kindle" feature?
if you are talking about a full android app... There is already one of those too.
Send to Kindle is great, but it doesn't provide the full functionality of an app.
The apps are great too, but they don't run great on eInk displays (e.g. They don't support hardware buttons to change pages, don't refresh the screen efficientl, don't use a colour palette that works well in monochrome, etc.)
If the Logos app had all these features, I'd buy an eInk Android device to read my Logos books.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
If the Logos app had all these features, I'd buy an eInk Android device to read my Logos books.
Yes, most definitely I would too! I have a kindle and a tablet. I sent a text to kindle recently and was frustrated by the limitations. So I went on my tablet to read it and it was a much better experience as far as ease of use goes, but very uncomfortable as far as screen glare goes. In the end, I am reading the book on my laptop with an anti-glare filter, but this of course, is not as good an experience either as the portability of an e-ink reader with full logos app functionality would be.
(But it would appear we have hijacked the thread away from its original purpose).
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Mark Barnes said:
If the Logos app had all these features, I'd buy an eInk Android device to read my Logos books.
I would too. E-ink is the key as my eyes feel weary after reading on my iPad for a while.
Francis said:(But it would appear we have hijacked the thread away from its original purpose).
Oops...I think you are right.
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Francis said:
(But it would appear we have hijacked the thread away from its original purpose).
Perhaps it was time [:D]
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I have not weighed in yet on this topic - but now I'll offer a thought. It's not a new thought, maybe expressed in a new way. I have been a customer for probably 15 years, frankly I have lost track. My library is over 21,000 books. I use Verbum constantly in my ministry. I preached a homily today, and another Deacon in the congregation came back to the sacristy after Mass and said how much he liked my homily - "What commentary do you use?" I said "It's not a commentary - go to Verbum.com".
I have been surprised many times by your vision, Bob - I remember grumbling about the movement to mobile - now who could do without it. (I was good with cloud by the way, many weren't and still aren't). Mac was another distraction - now I have one (many improvements, but still freezes a lot for me). I have complained in the past for more tools and support of those doing more serious research - and those have been coming fast and hard in the last 18 months. I complained about the total lack of Roman Catholic commitment years ago, given there are 1.2 billion of them on the earth, and maybe good Bible software might bring the 70% back who need a map to find their Church; and now we have a very substantial base of support for Catholic study (although I miss Andrew Jones GREATLY, just saying). So as any good CEO needs to do, you have made some GREAT calls based on your vision. And I have to believe from any measurement, Logos/Faithlife is in stronger/better/more competitive shape than it was 5 years ago. Very nice job!
The reply that pops in my head FIRST, when I read things like this though, because I understand that any new venture takes away from others, is where is the same fire and passion on making the tools we have NOW better, more efficient, less quirky, more complete. I would love to get rid of the feeling Faithlife is a "implement it 80% and move on" company, as a maybe-necessary by-product of having so many new roads to travel. But it hurts, and my own attitude toward the product is almost manic depressive as some days I struggle with things that I frankly wonder why anyone who knows they exist continues to let the product exist without fixes. You mention how you feel about the promises you made, I feel that some promises HAVE been unkept because features that we have today are not completed - at least in this poor user's perspective. But I still can't use Logos personal book sync, because it has size limits so the solution only works for SOME books - can't see the personal books on mobile devices - have crummy management tools when I have 297 personal books to contend with - just as one example.
I won't belabor the point - the specifics are eminently available on the forums. I feel bad when it sours my attitude, as I have never thought of abandoning Logos/Verbum. But I wish at times I felt you listened more to those of us in the trenches that use the product for hours each day.
With that one caveat - in most cases your vision is excellent - I am sure you have learned to trust it.
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Bob Pritchett said:
Bottom Line: If we could offer every ebook Amazon offers, but only if we did offer every ebook Amazon offers, should we? And if so, how?
The bottom line Bob is what is motivating you to consider this direction. You really need to seriously consider the answer to that question. Everything else I could say is moot until you have honestly answered this question for yourself. Maybe you have - I haven't looked at every post in this thread, only a few at this point.
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Bob Pritchett said:
Thank you, everyone, for the feedback.
I think we've gotten as much value as we're going to get from the debate.
My summary:
I chose '50 Shades' as an example because it was the most objectionable title I could think of from a 'major' publisher (and, due to its recent massive cultural impact, probably an example everyone would understand the content of without having read it).
I'm sorry if that choice took the discussion off-track, though it does seem to have accomplished the purpose of staking out the extremes of the relevant issues.
I think I have the feedback we need to make the upcoming decisions.
(emphasis mine)
I'm not sure there's much to be gained by continuing to post on this thread. There are discussions that may be better served by starting afresh elsewhere.
"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963
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How does one maintain their "integrity" and "vision" related to Christian faith issues when the business is to sell as many books as possible on every subject imaginable? That is sort of like telling Pepsi their soft drink products are so much better because they also sell bottled water...what an Orwellian view of marketing imo.
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My personal bottom line:
I purchase some secular literature anyway (possibly a heretical action when I consider some of the contributions here).
And if there's any way to have FL benefit from that purchase instead of Amazon, I'd welcome that option.
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Just wandering where we're at Bob.
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Mark Barnes said:
I would be quite supportive of a secular version of Vyrso.com, with three provisos:
- Entirely separate branding.
- It makes a net contribution to Faithlife.
- Your contracts allow us to send these books to Kindle.
Like most people on here I read secular books. I would prefer them in Logos format, even if all I do is send them to Kindle.
Agreed. And the more I've thought about this the better idea I think it would be if you could pull it off.
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
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Jacob Hantla said:
Like most people on here I read secular books. I would prefer them in Logos format, even if all I do is send them to Kindle.
Have you tried, on a book you've sent to Kindle and highlighted, to find your highlights on Amazon.com?
[Edit: That didn't attribute correctly, but it wasn't on purpose.]
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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NO!
Logos as far as I understood it was a BIBLE software and program.
I get it, some want dracula, and beowulf and and and. I want a BIBLE research and study program. That's me.
I'll admit and concede, you can't please everyone. I'll also concede, you do a relatively decent job trying to-- esp. since it is impossible to do so. But, I will go back to what I always have told you: Please God, then let the chips fall where they will. Unfortunately, no matter what you do, someone will always be your "judge". Admittedly, without intending to, I probably am first in line. Sorry, while that is not my intention, I'm sure that is what ultimately happens. It's true, many things you do, I am not comfortable with; but, at the same time, as I have always told you, I do not have to answer for what you do. And, I do not own, run, or manage the company.
I do think, however, that it is cool you do always try to please everyone-- or, at the very least, listen to what everyone has to say. The latter is really cool; the former probably keeps you awake every night wondering if you did the right thing. So, for whatever it's worth, my feeling is no, not what I am looking for. To me, the search also just bogs down everything. If I'm looking for the latest commentary on Community Pricing, and I have to flip through even half a page of Frankenstein, Beowulf's, or now as you suggest, Amazon e-books, I'm going to quit looking, because if I wanted those, I'd go to Amazon.Would it be cool to see "ties" from the Bible in Star Wars? Perhaps. But, I have hard enough time dealing with REAL searches, and then to get unnecessary search results would send me packing to Bible Works.
Just one more opinion.But, as always, don't take my opinion; make sure it's God's direction, whatever you do-- it's his company.0 -
I would like to see some more books in Logos format, especially academic resources such as Turabian's manual, etc. I'd rather have those resources in Logos format vs Kindle, iBooks, etc.
However, I don't need "every" book in Logos format, to the point where Logos would totally divulge from the core customer base it serves.
I'd just shoot for balance. Find the resources we could use in Logos format that would enhance our studies (Britannica is a good one, Turabian manual, etc.) without totally going off the core customer base you serve.
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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Shopping at Logos is like shopping at a Christian book store. there is comfort in knowing there won't be any blatantly anti-Christian books there. I would open another site--like Vyrso but for secular trade books. I'd like to have access to those books, but would prefer they were on a separate sit so i Know what I am looking at.
I have thought for a long time that one weakness of kindle is the inability to do searches across books. If I could buy any book in the logos format, I probably would do so instead of buying kindle books.
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The new Kindle's actually can search across your books in "everywhere" search.Josh Hunt said:Shopping at Logos is like shopping at a Christian book store. there is comfort in knowing there won't be any blatantly anti-Christian books there. I would open another site--like Vyrso but for secular trade books. I'd like to have access to those books, but would prefer they were on a separate sit so i Know what I am looking at.
I have thought for a long time that one weakness of kindle is the inability to do searches across books. If I could buy any book in the logos format, I probably would do so instead of buying kindle books.
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David Taylor Jr said:
The new Kindle's actually can search across your books in "everywhere" search.
Which device(s)? Do you mean all resources, or only downloaded ones?
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alabama24 said:
Which device(s)? Do you mean all resources, or only downloaded ones?
Downloaded resources only. This facility has been on Kindle devices for many years, so at the very least it's MOST Kindle devices.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Doc B said:
Have you tried, on a book you've sent to Kindle and highlighted, to find your highlights on Amazon.com?
So far, I haven't found any way to import books or other documents (including sending from Logos), and have highlights and notes taken be available on Amazon.com (kindle.com). It is too bad, because this is a hugely useful feature for books purchased through Amazon.
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I would be happy if we could easily send kindle books to Logos app or software.
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Fasil said:
I would be happy if we could easily send kindle books to Logos app or software.
Amazon's terms of use would prevent that.
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Sean,
How did you get your kindle books into logos?
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Sean,
How did you get your kindle books to transfer over to logos?
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Michael C. Brown said:
How did you get your kindle books to transfer over to logos?
You can't get them to "transfer over." On the other hand, ANY resource which you can convert to a Microsoft Word Document (.docx file), you can import using the personal book builder tool.
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