You Should Probably Stop Using Lexicons
I was intrigued by the post of this name by Mike Heiser You Should Probably Stop Using Lexicons .
This was promoting the Mobile Ed: Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos 6
I understand that is based on the Logos 5 version so bearing that in mind, do people think that it really will be suitable for those new to Greek & Hebrew other than dabbling with interlinears and lexicons & already using free bus passes (the latter is especially meaningful to UK users of Logos!) .
The idea that memorization is not required (except presumably for the relevant alphabets!!) to be able to be able to use Greek & Hebrew in bible study much more effectively other than dabbling with interlinears and lexicons is very very tempting!!
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I think that the message of practice, practice, practice, practice and meaning is not a gloss are messages that have been around for a very long time.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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So I've been eagerly awaiting the Dictionary of Classical Hebrew - is he telling me that I should cancel my order? [wink]
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Rob said:
So I've been eagerly awaiting the Dictionary of Classical Hebrew - is he telling me that I should cancel my order? [wink]
No, no, no....they want us to buy it first. Then, after the purchase, stop using it. [;)]
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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I really didn't like this blog post.
- His first example against lexicons comes from an expository dictionary which, by definition, is not a lexicon.
- The "practice, practice, practice" message is buried at the end so it's obscured. The article comes across as an irresponsible attack on a useful tool.
- Most of all: The product itself, at 20 hours per language, is laughably inadequate to engender the kind of mastery he is advocating for in the post.
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Yeah, like I said, sales pitch. A poor sales pitch at that.Dave Moser said:I really didn't like this blog post.
- His first example against lexicons comes from an expository dictionary which, by definition, is not a lexicon.
- The "practice, practice, practice" message is buried at the end so it's obscured. The article comes across as an irresponsible attack on a useful tool.
- Most of all: The product itself, at 20 hours per language, is laughably inadequate to engender the kind of mastery he is advocating for in the post.
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David Taylor Jr said:
Yeah, like I said, sales pitch. A poor sales pitch at that.
However, Id' say the title of the post effectively grabbed attention.
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Todd Frusti said:
However, Id' say the title of the post effectively grabbed attention.
Clickbait [:P]
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Agreed. I actually clicked on it simply because Heiser was one of my professors in college.Todd Frusti said:David Taylor Jr said:Yeah, like I said, sales pitch. A poor sales pitch at that.
However, Id' say the title of the post effectively grabbed attention.
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Agreed!David Taylor Jr said:
Yeah, like I said, sales pitch. A poor sales pitch at that.Dave Moser said:I really didn't like this blog post.
- His first example against lexicons comes from an expository dictionary which, by definition, is not a lexicon.
- The "practice, practice, practice" message is buried at the end so it's obscured. The article comes across as an irresponsible attack on a useful tool.
- Most of all: The product itself, at 20 hours per language, is laughably inadequate to engender the kind of mastery he is advocating for in the post.
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Agreed!David Taylor Jr said:
Yeah, like I said, sales pitch. A poor sales pitch at that.Dave Moser said:I really didn't like this blog post.
- His first example against lexicons comes from an expository dictionary which, by definition, is not a lexicon.
- The "practice, practice, practice" message is buried at the end so it's obscured. The article comes across as an irresponsible attack on a useful tool.
- Most of all: The product itself, at 20 hours per language, is laughably inadequate to engender the kind of mastery he is advocating for in the post.
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Sorry to spoil the fun [:)] [:)] of giving poor Mike a good kicking,[:'(] .
Actually, I thought that Mike was addressing his comments to people like me who know virtually no Greek or Hebrew - I could name the odd regular forum member who has made equivalent comments.
Back to my query ... has anyone any experience of the predecessor of this course to comment if it is likely to have much added value potential for language challenged Logos users interested in making as much use as possible from Logos?? Thanks
(Languaged challenged means final French grade after 5 years, 7% and German after 4 years 16%. Downhill ever since - over 50 years ago.)
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JohnB said:
has anyone any experience of the predecessor of this course to comment
I purchased the original and worked through most of the Hebrew section. It did have some valuable information, but the sales pitch promised far, far more than the videos delivered. It was probably worth the $169 when first introduced. I would not pay the current price. Last time I checked the original videos were around $500, but I did not even look at the Mobile Ed edition.
YMMV
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JohnB said:
has anyone any experience of the predecessor of this course to comment if it is likely to have much added value potential for language challenged Logos users interested in making as much use as possible from Logos
I purchased the original "Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos Bible Software" package before I learned the biblical languages. My initial reaction was that it was not worth the price (even at pre-pub). It was basically a brief introduction to the different resources (lexicons, grammars, etc) and how to search them in Logos - you can learn that on the wiki. And after learning the languages I now realize it's even less valuable than I originally thought since it could give you the false impression that you have a good grasp of what's going on behind the scenes when you really have no idea how the language works.
Bottom line: Don't bother with language tools unless you're going to invest in actually learning the languages. You'll do more harm than good, and our English Bibles are quite excellent. Knowing how to look words up in a lexicon or do a word study is no substitute to knowing how a Greek sentence works.
(Interestingly, this is kind of the point of the original post we're criticizing here but the problem is that his solution - the Mobile Ed product - can't possibly deliver what he claims. It's all marketing fluff. I love Logos but the marketing has gotten downright rotten in the last two years or so.)
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Dave Moser said:
I now realize it's even less valuable than I originally thought since it could give you the false impression that you have a good grasp of what's going on behind the scenes when you really have no idea how the language works.
Bottom line: Don't bother with language tools unless you're going to invest in actually learning the languages. You'll do more harm than good, and our English Bibles are quite excellent. Knowing how to look words up in a lexicon or do a word study is no substitute to knowing how a Greek sentence works.
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Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Pretty clear Heiser is using hyperbole to get people to learn more than words. Most students don't want to do the hard stuff.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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I'm surprised folks are wound up, especially on the blog page.
When I learned Japanese, a dictionary was a disaster. I was always wrong. Listening to my spouse was faster. So also learning Navajo using Rosetta ... loose the dictionary. The Navajo happily laugh at you, elsewise.
Now, that assumes you want to learn the language. Make a trip to Seoul, then bring the common words and signs. Small dictionary.
Personally, absent serious expertise, greek and hebrew are a hobby for most. A dead language and another varient lost until a century ago. Authors unknown. Time written unknown. Location unknown.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Shouldn't George have a comment in here somewhere? If I am remembering correctly, he doesn't like lexicons. [:D]
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Let's shut the front and back door. Logos should be forbidden from providing language tools that will prove dangerous to the common folk.
Lock it all up in Hebrew and Greek with no Lexicons to be found.
Just because a crack in the dam formed first with Latin, then English does not mean we should not try to plug and repair the damage.
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The better lexicons, like HALOT, BDAG, etc. actually are the fruit of the process that is being recommended in this article - lots of looking at different uses in context, studying the history of the word, consulting with experts, etc.
So, rather than not using Lexicons, maybe what is most important is understanding that Lexicons provide glosses based on a process that we can repeat ourselves if we have the time and know-how. And that, occasionally, we might come to different conclusions. My guess/hope is that this is what the article is really trying to get at, with a bit of hyperbole thrown in.
If we don't have the time and know-how to do this process ourselves, Lexicons are great and necessary because they allow us to benefit from the expertise of those who do.
And, if you know how to use the Lexicon well, they can be quite helpful to doing the process itself. They allow us to quickly see different contexts, and enter into the scholarly discussion that has gone on about a word (at least with academic lexicons like HALOT and BDAG) so that our own decisions will be better informed. Even great experts know that they need Lexicons, because good research is done in an academic community, and is much more fruitful that way.
Logos / Verbum makes all this easier, not because it replaces Lexicons, but because it makes it easier for us to enter into that dialogue, regardless of whether we are beginners or experts.
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Ronald Quick said:
Shouldn't George have a comment in here somewhere? If I am remembering correctly, he doesn't like lexicons.
As far as I remember, he doesn't like the "pick your gloss from this short list of context free possibilities"-type of dictionaries (maybe even less those who like Strongs operate on the basis of the KJV translation unencumbered by ancient meaning and usage). Other than that, I think he tirelessly recommended selling one's child for BDAG....
Have joy in the Lord!
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Funnily enough, I was also wondering where George was.
Well I think the message is, although selling one's child is worth it for BDAG, selling the neighbours dead pet rabbit is too high a price for the "Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew ...." course.
Seriously, thanks folks.
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A month ago, I called Logos to ask if I could use "Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew" considering my limited Logos features/library. I have, e.g. BDB, but I was told that, to take full advantage, I'd really want more lexicons, like BDAG.
Btw, while investigating BDAG last month, I found this relevant item that doesn't require selling one's child (public domain, actually):
[quote] If you use BDAG, you have seen the abbreviation ‘M-M’ at the end of many entries. This note, which appears some 4,700 times in BDAG, indicates that Moulton and Milligan’s lexicon also has an entry for that word.
— https://www.logos.com/product/5773/vocabulary-of-the-greek-testament0 -
About 30 years ago in Kenya my 6 years old son came in telling me with enthusiastic voice that "kuenda" means "go away" (in Swahili). He did not need any dictionary: the situation, the face expression of the construction worker, the tone of the voice and probably some hand signs provided him the cue. But when learning the Biblical languages we don't have all that available. But videos would help, I think. Any available in the internet?
And I like the 'M-M' mentioned above
Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11
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Veli Voipio said:
But when learning the Biblical languages we don't have all that available. But videos would help, I think. Any available in the internet?
I attempted to answer such a question recently on the Christian Discourse forums
http://christiandiscourse.com/t/resources-for-learning-biblical-hebrew/657?u=bkmitchell
[quote] The following two online video courses are basically equal to a full year of Seminary Biblical Hebrew. They are not in Logos, but they are free.They are graciously made available by the Master's Seminary and by Dr. Barrick:
OT 503 Hebrew Grammar I (Full first Semester)
http://www.theologicalresources.org/the-masters-seminary/17-hebrew-grammar-i/OT 504 Hebrew II (Full Second Semester)
http://www.theologicalresources.org/the-masters-seminary/18-hebrew-grammar-ii/Link to a PDF of the Grammar
http://drbarrick.org/files/studynotes/Other/B_B_Hebrew_Grammar_2005.pdfLink to a PDF of the Workbook
http://drbarrick.org/files/studynotes/Other/B_B_Hebrew_Grammar_Wkbk_Full.pdfIf you finish those a liked them a two more semesters of Hebrew are also available here:
(1) http://drbarrick.org/hebrew/hebrew-exegesis-i/
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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The good doctor seems to have really struck a chord with the lexicon addicts. Years back, I felt bad about bragging about how good M-M was. But that was only because BDAG is a modern-day theological dictionary. I have BDAG, but I don't even think I have it prioritized in my top 5.
Now, I've no professional responsibilities to lead people on, but I am a big believer in context ... get resources that deliver context. The Bible maybe? Papayri (M-M). Inscriptions. Similar languages. Translations into secondary languages. With L6 it's do-able. As the good doctor finished off with.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Thanks BKM!
And regarding to
how about the https://www.logos.com/product/16528/oxyrhynchus-papyri - it has been incubating quite long in the pre-pub?Denise said:get resources that deliver context
Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11
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BKMitchell said:Veli Voipio said:
But when learning the Biblical languages we don't have all that available. But videos would help, I think. Any available in the internet?
I attempted to answer such a question recently on the Christian Discourse forums
http://christiandiscourse.com/t/resources-for-learning-biblical-hebrew/657?u=bkmitchell
[quote] The following two online video courses are basically equal to a full year of Seminary Biblical Hebrew. They are not in Logos, but they are free.They are graciously made available by the Master's Seminary and by Dr. Barrick:
OT 503 Hebrew Grammar I (Full first Semester)
http://www.theologicalresources.org/the-masters-seminary/17-hebrew-grammar-i/OT 504 Hebrew II (Full Second Semester)
http://www.theologicalresources.org/the-masters-seminary/18-hebrew-grammar-ii/Link to a PDF of the Grammar
http://drbarrick.org/files/studynotes/Other/B_B_Hebrew_Grammar_2005.pdfLink to a PDF of the Workbook
http://drbarrick.org/files/studynotes/Other/B_B_Hebrew_Grammar_Wkbk_Full.pdfIf you finish those a liked them a two more semesters of Hebrew are also available here:
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If, you like the Basics of Biblical Language Series Logos/faithlife sells Greek/Hebrew Video lecture series together for 159 USD:
https://www.logos.com/product/34026/zondervan-biblical-languages-video-lectures
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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Video lectures are good but I was thinking videos re-enacting ancient life using the ancient languages, with an ancient scene in the background.
Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11
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