SUGGESTION: Resource Type: Ancient Bible Manuscript

Yes! This has bugged me about the Bible resource type for a long time. I do have workarounds. I created collections for English Bibles and Search Bibles. But it would be really good to have those ancient manuscripts separated out into a different type.

The Bible section of my library is now functionally useless when it comes to anything related to actual Bibles.*

Mine has been for years for two reasons:

The Text of the Earliest New Testament Greek Manuscripts and as you mention the CAL Targums and Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls
The exclusion of many (but not all) translations embedded in commentaries

However, any "ancient manuscripts" subtype would also have to include the major codices (Taurinensis, Sinaiticus, Bezae Cantabrigiensis ...) and you run into questions regarding the "cutoff of ancient" ... I would assume that Hebrew, Greek, Syriac, Latin, Georgian, Armenian, Arabic, Coptic and Gothic would be covered. [Okay Faithlife is missing a few essentials.]

I would then constantly find myself using collections of the form of type:(Bible, "Ancient Bible Manuscript") lang:Greek ... whereas my standard since L4 has been a collection type:Bible lang:English. As I have always had to use collections segregating by language and as the fragments have low default priority, I'm not sure what your proposal would gain me. Were I not already forced to use collections based on language and already forced to prioritize my English Bibles, I would support your suggestion. Can you explain what you would gain by the implementation of your proposal?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/733618#Comment_733618

Can you explain what you would gain by the implementation of your proposal?

It would make English Bible collections simpler for the majority of users. I bet that fewer users make use of ancient languages (even major Greek and Hebrew versions) than users who don't at all.

Those of us like SineNomine and me who have been using Logos for a while already have ways of working around the lack of simplicity, but I do think it's a good suggestion for Logos going forward.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/733625#Comment_733625

Can you explain what you would gain by the implementation of your proposal?

It would make English Bible collections simpler for the majority of users. I bet that fewer users make use of ancient languages (even major Greek and Hebrew versions) than users who don't at all.

Those of us like SineNomine and me who have been using Logos for a while already have ways of working around the lack of simplicity, but I do think it's a good suggestion for Logos going forward.

Somehow I am missing the obvious. One's English Bible collection rule would be unchanged - how does that make it simpler? I can't imagine people having a library including the ancient manuscripts that didn't also contain other original language Bibles - Lexham, critical texts etc.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/733629#Comment_733629

Somehow I am missing the obvious. One's English Bible collection rule would be unchanged - how does that make it simpler? I can't imagine people having a library including the ancient manuscripts that didn't also contain other original language Bibles - Lexham, critical texts etc.

OK, you caught me on something illogical. I guess I was thinking more of people just perusing their libraries to see what Bibles they had, e.g., filtering the library by type:bible or clicking on the Type field to group and then expanding the Bible type. All those ancient manuscript fragments are just constantly getting in the way in situations like that. I might be missing some other times when I've found them an annoyance. I had for a while hidden them all. They came with a base package I think. I didn't buy them intentionally, since I never use them. I've unhidden some of them from time to time, when I wanted to look something up in one of them. So I guess I can't logically say I never use them. But almost never. And I'm not as much a stickler for logic as you are anyway. I'm more into emotional rhetoric. [:)]

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/733630#Comment_733630

Just adding to the discussion, on mobiles, Bibles are a real pain, since you have to henpeck out the narrowing down filters. The DSS ones sort at the top.

Presuming the rent-a-Logos becomes popular, those DSS / Targums are going to be in the way to newbies and mobilers.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/733630#Comment_733630

Remember Rosie - you likely know more Biblical language than I. But, okay, I now understand that the purpose of the additional resource type is to improve browsing the library by resource type. That makes sense. The question then becomes it that is a function used sufficiently to optimize - something I don't know..

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/733631#Comment_733631

Just adding to the discussion, on mobiles, Bibles are a real pain, since you have to henpeck out the narrowing down filters. The DSS ones sort at the top.

Presuming the rent-a-Logos becomes popular, those DSS / Targums are going to be in the way to newbies and mobilers.

I may be wrong but Logos is putting a fair amount of effort into organizing our libraries for us - Guide sections such as Journals, Ancient Literature, systematic theologies, Catholic topical index, Sermons ... and there are some predefined Collections - Church fathers, Curch documents, Cethechism. I would expect (hope) that for Logos Cloud, Logos provides a number of predefined collections - things like Bibles: English; Bibles Spanish; Bibles: Original language critical editions ... are some obvious candidates. As are Bible Commentaries and monographs by style/method ....

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/733632#Comment_733632

Remember Rosie - you likely know more Biblical language than I.

Perhaps. I did take a year of Hebrew and one semester of Greek, though I've forgotten most of both. I do occasionally go looking at the underlying original language text, but mostly only in order to right-click on words and do BWS or looks stuff up in lexicons. And I'm not at all interested in the fragmentary sources, codexes, DSS, or any bibles in a language I've never studied (e.g., Finnish, Coptic, Syriac, etc.).

Even this rule (type:bible -aramaic -qumran -codex -gs) leaves me with 229 bibles. That is not manageable.

I have a tag I've put on most of the bibles in my library that I consider to be "real bibles"; it is (surprise, surprise) realbible. I have 80 of those. That's manageable. It includes 61 English translations, 3 French (I do speak/read French) 3 German (the two versions of Luther Bible; I have never studied German but I know a few words), 8 Greek, 4 Hebrew, and 2 Latin (never studied Latin either, but again I've picked up bits and pieces through osmosis).

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/733618#Comment_733618

However, any "ancient manuscripts" subtype would also have to include the major codices (Taurinensis, Sinaiticus, Bezae Cantabrigiensis ...) and you run into questions regarding the "cutoff of ancient" ... I would assume that Hebrew, Greek, Syriac, Latin, Georgian, Armenian, Arabic, Coptic and Gothic would be covered. [Okay Faithlife is missing a few essentials.]

The DSS resources that aren't Bible fragments have the resource type Ancient Manuscripts. I think the most logical thing to do would be to assess all of the present Bible-typed resources and to put all of the ones that would qualify as Ancient Manuscripts--according to FL's present criteria, whatever they are--were they not type:"Bible" as Ancient Bible Manuscripts.

Can you explain what you would gain by the implementation of your proposal?

Yes. Browsing my library to see what Bible translations I have--English and otherwise--would cease to be a pain in the neck. And I wouldn't have to scroll through 300 resources to verify that I have access to a Spanish Bible and scan the list multiple times or use a lang:spanish sort to verify that I only have access to one of them.

For me, and I suspect for most, full-length Bibles (or even OTs or NTs) are far more useful than obscure ancient language fragments. Ancient fragments are for scholarly research that frankly most of FL's target market will never ever do; La Biblia de Jerusalén Latinoamericana is for reading and improving my Spanish.

Just adding to the discussion, on mobiles, Bibles are a real pain, since you have to henpeck out the narrowing down filters. The DSS ones sort at the top.

Presuming the rent-a-Logos becomes popular, those DSS / Targums are going to be in the way to newbies and mobilers.

Very much so. Faithlife doesn't need any more complaints about difficulties using their products on mobile devices.

Even this rule (type:bible -aramaic -qumran -codex -gs) leaves me with 229 bibles. That is not manageable.

I have a tag I've put on most of the bibles in my library that I consider to be "real bibles"; it is (surprise, surprise) realbible. I have 80 of those. That's manageable. It includes 61 English translations, 3 French (I do speak/read French) 3 German (the two versions of Luther Bible; I have never studied German but I know a few words), 8 Greek, 4 Hebrew, and 2 Latin (never studied Latin either, but again I've picked up bits and pieces through osmosis).

That rule leaves me with 63 Bibles, which I can tolerate. (Adding -lang:Greek wipes out most of the other resources I'm tempted to hide, including some that are not ancient manuscripts and thus tangential to this thread.) But should I have to run that string? I think not. I also think I shouldn't have to duplicate Rosie's realbible tag, either. And let's face it--most Logos/Verbum users don't know how to do this stuff, and I don't think they should have to learn to use it just to make type:Bible back into a useful resource type. If FL can distinguish Bible Notes and Bible Commentaries (and treat them the same in such places as the Passage Guide), then it can do the same for Bibles and fragments of ancient manuscripts of the Bible.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/733660#Comment_733660

Thanks to Rosie I understand the problem - any to my surprise I apparently own more Bibles than she although I have a much smaller library. As I indicated in my preceding post, I suspect that Faithlife is aware of the problem and will find a reasonable solution that meets most people's needs.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/733681#Comment_733681

I suspect that Faithlife is aware of the problem and will find a reasonable solution that meets most people's needs.

I certainly hope so. I have given the best and simplest idea that I could come up with; perhaps they have a better one.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/733681#Comment_733681

Thanks to Rosie I understand the problem - any to my surprise I apparently own more Bibles than she although I have a much smaller library.

I didn't know there were any Bibles that I don't own except a variety of non-English ones in languages I don't speak (Spanish, Czech, Esperanto, Chinese, Portuguese, Danish, Norwegian, etc.) and four specialty/study Bibles by authors I don't particularly respect. Possibly you have more of those and maybe also more PB Bibles than I have? (I have 5: Bible in Basic English, New Testament in Modern English, New World Translation, Tyndale Bible, Wycliffe Bible). Or maybe I've hidden some that were of type Bible that I didn't find useful.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/733691#Comment_733691

Thanks to Rosie I understand the problem - any to my surprise I apparently own more Bibles than she although I have a much smaller library.

I didn't know there were any Bibles that I don't own except a variety of non-English ones in languages I don't speak (Spanish, Czech, Esperanto, Chinese, Portuguese, Danish, Norwegian, etc.) and four specialty/study Bibles by authors I don't particularly respect. Possibly you have more of those and maybe also more PB Bibles than I have? (I have 5: Bible in Basic English, New Testament in Modern English, New World Translation, Tyndale Bible, Wycliffe Bible). Or maybe I've hidden some that were of type Bible that I didn't find useful.

Perhaps MJ has (at least) a few more Ancient Bible Manuscripts somehow.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/733691#Comment_733691

What? you don't have a Finnish Bible[;)]

Veli Voipio

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/733770#Comment_733770

What? you don't have a Finnish Bible

[:(]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/733770#Comment_733770

What? you don't have a Finnish Bible

The only word I know in Finnish is hissi (elevator), and that wouldn't help me read the Bible. [:)]

Sorry, Veli. I confess much ignorance of your language and culture. I've been to Helsinki once on a stopover, but hardly got out of the hotel. That's where I learned the word hissi. Helsinki is also where I had my first exposure to cell phones. It was in 1990, I think, and hardly anyone had a cell phone in the US, but Finland was far ahead of us. I was in a restaurant, and a table of four friendly Finns overheard me ordering and could tell from my accent that I was American. They chatted with me, told me they worked for Nokia, and asked me if I'd like to phone home for free on one of their mobile phones. I did. It was quite a fun novelty. Unfortunately there was nobody home, so I was only able to leave a message on the answering machine. But still a very fun memory of Helsinki.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/734038#Comment_734038

First word I knew was "tupa" as in the book titled Tales from a Finnish Tupa - one of the other kids had been given a copy when it first came out. When I was first learning to read I thought it was "Tales from a Finnish Tuba" which was odd because my brother preferred the sousaphone.[;)] Okay, tupa is a small house, cottage, hut ...

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/734256#Comment_734256

You know, it would be easier to find a Finnish Bible in one's library if Faithlife acted on my suggestion.

George Somsel

You know, it would be easier to find a Finnish Bible in one's library if Faithlife acted on my suggestion.

type:bible language:finnish

Veli Voipio

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/734270#Comment_734270

Doing various searches you'll get all sorts of interesting results, maybe a bit off-topic, like Finns mentioned in Carson's book:

Why Are Fire Engines Red?

They have four wheels and eight men;
four plus eight is twelve;
twelve inches make a ruler;
a ruler is Queen Elizabeth;
Queen Elizabeth sails the seven seas;
the seven seas have fish;
the fish have fins;
the Finns hate the Russians;
the Russians are red;
fire engines are always rushin’;
so they’re red.

Carson, D. A. (1996). Exegetical fallacies (2nd ed., p. 87). Carlisle, U.K.; Grand Rapids, MI: Paternoster; Baker Books.

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In the Library, I would like to see more user-definable fields, that would help sort out and find what I really need

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/734256#Comment_734256

You know, it would be easier to find a Finnish Bible in one's library if Faithlife acted on my suggestion.

I suspect that for the majority of Logos users the single most important item for making a Finnish Bible easily found would be to buy one.