Top ten theologians from each L6 tradition / denomination.
God bless you all:
Has anyone put together a document listing the 10 top theologians in each denomination / tradition?
If someone has, can he / she please share it.
The idea came to me after looking at: theologydegreesonline.com/the-40-greatest-theologians-throug…
And I would like to use it to develop a collection that would do something like this (from a post in Logos Author collections):
Searching in my Dictionaries collection for "sons of God", I came across very interesting information:
"The only passage where any difficulty has been felt (and that only for dogmatic reasons) about interpreting the phrase in this way is Gn 6:2. Onḳelos, Beresh. rab., Saadya, Ibn Ezra, et al., take it to mean there ‘sons of princes,’ ‘mighty men’; Theod., Chrys., Jerome, Aug., Luther, Calvin, Hengstenberg, et al., understand by ‘the sons of God’ the pious (Sethite) portion of the human race, which is opposed to the (Cainite) ‘daughters of men.’ Neither of these interpretations suits either the context or the usage of the Heb. phrase."
Selbie, J. A. (1911–1912). SONS OF GOD. In J. Hastings, J. A. Selbie, A. B. Davidson, S. R. Driver, & H. B. Swete (Eds.), A Dictionary of the Bible: Dealing with Its Language, Literature, and Contents Including the Biblical Theology (Vol. 4, p. 598). New York; Edinburgh: Charles Scribner’s Sons; T. & T. Clark.
I wonder if someone has created a "Theologian's works" collections so that one can look what different theologians have said about a concept or term?
Based on the above quote maybe the rule could be: Author:(Irenaeus, Tertullian, Jerome, Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Barth etc.)
So that one could find quickly the different perspectives, insights, positions some early and modern brothers / sisters had / have.
Any idea, suggestion, hyperlink reference, and the like would be appreciated, also feel free to play with the concept and share on any improvement, refinement, spin off, etc.
Blessings.
Comments
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Hamilton Ramos said:
Has anyone put together a document listing the 10 top theologians in each denomination / tradition?
Will leave that question for someone else to answer.
Hamilton Ramos said:Searching in my Dictionaries collection for "sons of God", I came across very interesting information:
"The only passage where any difficulty has been felt ... is Gn 6:2.
That's not really accurate. There is also dispute over what the concept means in other places such as Deut 32:8 and Psa 82:6, and secondary texts such as Greek Esther 16:16). I'm surprised your Bible dictionary didn't refer to the traditions in 1 Enoch.
But in terms of tools to find these things in Logos 6, have you tried the Ancient Literature section of the Passage Guide?
That won't give you what modern authors have said, but it is invaluable for seeing how ancient authors of different periods understood the phrase.
HTH.
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Hamilton Ramos said:
Has anyone put together a document listing the 10 top theologians in each denomination / tradition?
Top 10 what? How? By what measure?
There are all kinds of lists like this, but you'll have to be much more specific if you want anything other than opinions. (Remember, if you put 10 Baptists in a room and ask them a question, you'll get about fourteen opinions.) [Edit: I can say that; I am one.]
That's not to say such lists wouldn't be interesting. I think they would. But my top 10 would probably not look like yours...depends on the criteria for choosing them.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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God bless:
Thank you Allen for the input. If I am not mistaken, L6 staff is working to develop a similar function with content from modern theologians.
Just out of curiosity, have you got a personal list of theologians that you consider especially worthy to look at?
Thanks again, blessings.
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God bless:
I liked your comment very much,it is so funny and so true.
What I am thinking of is maybe the 10 theologians in a tradition that truly master and clearly expound the core theology of the tradition, without misrepresentation, nor mischaracterization.
I am not an expert but I wold expect to see names such as: Calvin, Wesley, Barth, Spurgeon, Luther, Mullins, Strong, Chafer, Oden, Berkhof, Hodge, Warfield, Pope, Ryrie, etc.
I like to explore key concepts and how they are view from different traditions.
Have you got a list of favorite theologians? If so who are they?
Blessings.
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Hamilton Ramos said:
Thank you Allen for the input. ...
have you got a personal list of theologians that you consider especially worthy to look at?No, not really, Hamilton. I'm focused on NT studies rather than systematics, so I'm not the right person to supply those names.
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Have you considered the lists available in Wikipedia? From my perspective, it takes a couple of centuries to know what theologians of an era have lasting power. When we try to assign such status to contemporary theologians the influence of contemporary theological interests is too great.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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God bless:
Thank you Allen.
Not trying to be an annoyance, but are there specific key concepts or Biblical thrusts that you find of extreme importance in the NT?
Example:
Kingdom of God, Holy Spirit, modes of Revelation, Apostle's doctrine, the Way, lukewarmness, Being in Rev 1:12-18, etc.
My asking is because usually people in the forums have insight that do not know how valuable the input is to other believers.
Thanks ahead of time for any input in that respect.
Blessings.
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Hamilton Ramos said:
... are there specific key concepts or Biblical thrusts that you find of extreme importance in the NT?
Example:
Kingdom of God, Holy Spirit, modes of Revelation, Apostle's doctrine, the Way, lukewarmness, Being in Rev 1:12-18, etc.
For Jesus, kingdom of God defined everything he did: healings, exorcisms, teaching, parables, mission, sending out disciples. Announcing the good news of the restoration of God's reign was the reason Jesus got up in the morning (Luke 4:43). A few years ago, I realized that didn't understand what Jesus meant because he never defined it. He didn't need to: it was assumed knowledge in his culture. (They could argue about what it looked like or how it would come, but they all knew what it was.) Conversely, I live in a democracy where all my life I have filtered out his kingdom language as arcane as I read for what is relevant to me. Oops: I've missed Jesus' main message.
So how could I recover the assumed knowledge that was part of Jesus' culture but not mine? A good book can transport you to another place or another time, so the best way to acquire the assumed knowledge of Jesus' culture is through the literature of the period. About 4-5 years ago I started studying the 2nd temple literature (Apocrypha, Pseudepigrapha, non-biblical Dead Sea Scrolls, and Josephus) as a means of entering the first century Jewish worldview.
As I began to understand what they understood the kingdom of God to be, I began to grasp how Jesus understood the kingdom of God as the main theme of Scripture. So, in September last year, I began re-reading entire Bible in this light. I'm only up to Exodus 7 so far. At this rate, it's going to take me 20 years. I'm devoting the my life to pursuing the kingdom of God.
If you're interested in the journey, you might start with the first 2 volumes of N T Wright's "Christian Origins" series: The New Testament and the People of God and Jesus and the Victory of God. That will provide the framework in which this journey makes sense.
HTH.
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God bless:
Thank you MJ for the tip, I noticed that the list gets huge in xx and xxi century, also some theologians are missing.
I guess I will have to go through each of the theologian's pages to see what they are about.
Thank you Allen for sharing such great insight with us.
Totally agree with you, in Dr. Heiser's Bible interpretation mobile ed course (L6), he mentioned that the key concept in the Gospel of Matthew where the chiastic structure hinged was precisely the "Kingdom of God", meaning that it is the most important thing in the Gospel.
Worldview is a magnificent framework to study concepts, literature, periods, etc. Roughly it consists of:
a Story: creation, fall, redemption, Kingdom.
a system of ethics: christian moral theology, and
atitude: correct one from us as a result of understanding the Kingdom message: (walk humbly with God, love God and neighbour, and love and do justice, mercy, goodness, etc.).
Do you know Allen of a resource(s) (preferably in L6) that teaches how to apply worldview, to analyze not only the Bible, but the literature of the period, so that we can use such tool in correct ways.
Thanks ahead of time for any guidance, and thanks for the very valuable input.
Blessings.
P. S. I hope you eventually write a book about Kingdom of God as understood in Jesus' times, and its application in ours, just make sure you make it available in L6.
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Hamilton Ramos said:
Do you know Allen of a resource(s) (preferably in L6) that teaches how to apply worldview, to analyze not only the Bible, but the literature of the period, so that we can use such tool in correct ways.
Hmm. Interesting request. There are heaps of books in NT studies that dig into life in 2nd temple Galilee. N T Wright's Jesus and the Victory of God is probably the best starting point. There are others that give you a good feel for life in Galilee, such as the recent Galilee in the Late Second Temple and Mishnaic Periods, Volume 1: Life, Culture, and Society.
But, seriously, there is no substitute for studying the primary sources. Only then do you become familiar with the variety of human voices that form the literature you have. You don't just just want to search Josephus to see what he said a a topic or verse: you want to become so familiar with how Josephus thought that you know what he would think on a topic. You want to wrestle with how the writer of (say) Jubilees thought that you no longer think, "How could they have thought that?" but "Ah, I'd never thought of it that way..." You want to develop an understanding of how a writer could think that Adam must have been unclean when first created and not allowed into the garden for 8 days (and even longer for Eve). Lots of reading and meditation on the primary sources: no substitute!
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God bless:
Tanks for the further clarification. To me it seems that your approach is similar to Dr. Heiser's: "let the worldview of the Authors enter your head, so that you can more accurately extract the intended meaning of the communication".
The problem I have with such an approach, is that to me there is a supernatural dimension that is the actual Author, and that has an intended meaning transcending human cultures and times.
To me that supernatural dimension is the substantive reality of the Holy Spirit.
I will give a brief example:
If you use normal times of Jesus' worldview, you may get an interpretation as I have heard from some pastors:
Laodicea had a water transport system, that moved hot water that along became cold, and some of the properties were lost as it became cold. (A human explanation of what a passage means by using the understanding of the Laodicean times' worldview).
Now let's look at the passage:
Revelation 3:15-21
15 “‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.
17 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.
18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see.
19Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. 20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.
21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Was the message given by Jesus Christ, relate to actual water running in the Laodicean water system?, was the message a one time type, that apply only to that particular time and place, or are the underlying principles applicable to us today?
Jesus Christ was talking about baptized Christians that had been walking in the Way.
I come from a Charismatic tradition, and to us, the cold, lukewarm or hot condition refers to the filling of the Holy Spirit that you have, and that is obtained by a close relationship with God.
Just as Moses shined after spending time with God, the modern believer, that obeys, applies, and believes in the word of God, and that spends time seeking God, may eventually find Him, and His glory will manifests giving him or her a hot quality in front of God.
What is the right worldview to properly understand such passage? Laodicean's, or the special dimension and worldview of the Holy Spirit that transcends time and space?
You mention: "you want to become so familiar with how Josephus thought that you know what he would think on a topic. You want to wrestle with how the writer of (say) Jubilees thought that you no longer think, "How could they have thought that?" but "Ah, I'd never thought of it that way...",
and I agree, but to me the true author is the Holy Spirit, and I want to:
"Become so familiar with the Holy Spirit, that I know what He would think on a topic".
And that is why I asked you about a resource that clearly delineates what worldview is, what are the components, how it is used as a tool, so that I can apply that knowledge to understand the worldview of the Holy Spirit.
Hope I clarified some of my concerns.
Blessings, and thanks for the suggestions, I have all the books you mentioned except "Galilee in the late Second temple... " I am seriously contemplating buying it.
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Hi Hamilton
The guidelines for these forums preclude us from discussing theology here. This is really a technical forum, where we help each other to use Logos. Sometimes that includes recommending resources, but I can't reply to your comments in detail here.
Let's just say that many of us believe in divine inspiration, i.e. the Holy Spirit operating in conjunction with a human author. But it's also important that Christianity is a historical faith, i.e. different parts of the Bible were given to specific people in specific places at specific times. Things that would have been obvious to them in their culture we may have to do some research to understand. For example, if I mention Washington, everyone in the US knows what I'm talking about, but not everyone in our modern world can appreciate the references in (say) Isaiah 7:8-9 without digging back into the people and places of the time.
That's obvious about geography and names. It may be a bit less obvious about mindset of the people to whom and through whom God's message was delivered. I've suggested N T Wright as a way to begin to grasp their worldview. For example, Chapter 8 of The New Testament and the People of God is titled "Story, Symbol, Praxis: Elements of Israel's worldview." Here's a taste:
1. Introduction
Within the turbulent history described in chapter 6, and amidst the pressure of parties described in chapter 7, there lived the ordinary Jews of the first century. It is difficult to tell what books, if any, such people read (other than their Bible, and not everyone would have been able to read that for themselves). What we do know, however, is that they shared to a lesser or greater extent in the worldview which, beneath the party differences, united the great majority. We can plot this worldview with some accuracy through studying, initially, three of the four worldview-components that we discussed in chapter 5: the stories which were told and retold, which embodied and integrated, as only stories can, the varied aspects of the worldview; the symbols to which all except the most non-observant would have attached themselves in some ways; and the praxis, closely integrated with those symbols, which would have characterized the great majority.
2. Stories
(i) Introduction
We saw in chapter 3 that stories are important as an index of the worldview of any culture, and that it is crucial, if we are to understand them, to read their many dimensions with accuracy. Some cultures keep their characteristic stories subtly hidden. First-century Judaism is an excellent example of a culture which quite obviously thrived on stories, which we may for simplicity divide into two categories: the basic story, told in the Bible, of creation and election, of exodus and monarchy, of exile and return; and smaller-unit stories, either dealing with a small part of the larger story, or running in parallel to some or all of it. In each case, we gain a powerful index of the Jewish worldview, which then opens up to create the context for the symbols and the praxis.
N. T. Wright, The New Testament and the People of God, Christian Origins and the Question of God (London: SPCK, 1992), 215.0 -
God bless:
Thank you Allen. I apologize if I violated guidelines.
I found a couple of resources in my Library that I think will help me answer my own question:
I started reading it, and supposedly it gives a sample of the author's Biblical worldview construct. Some of the questioning he makes about the usefulness of certain secular and other tradition paradigms, I do not agree with as valid, but it is interesting reading.
https://www.logos.com/product/26320/worlds-apart-a-handbook-on-worldviews
I have not started reading but from the splash page, it seems interesting and relevant to my concerns.
Thank you Allen for your input has given me a lot to think about, and I find that edifying. It would be great to hear more of you in Faithlife's Biblical Theology group, and /or in Christian Discourse.
Blessings.
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Hamilton Ramos said:
I started reading it, and supposedly it gives a sample of the author's Biblical worldview construct. Some of the questioning he makes about the usefulness of certain secular and other tradition paradigms, I do not agree with as valid, but it is interesting reading.
May I suggest a slight different approach to reading that you may find helpful? Read with an attitude of "what I can learn" from this paradigm? Why does it "work" for some? What do I disagree with and why? I don't have time to track it down at the moment but there is a very interesting article of Augustine's way of reading written by a professor at a Baptist seminary.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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God bless:
MJ. Smith said:May I suggest a slight different approach to reading that you may find helpful? Read with an attitude of "what I can learn" from this paradigm? Why does it "work" for some? What do I disagree with and why?
Thanks for the advice. I consider myself very tolerant, I can read and hear the weirdest constructs, and I analyze to try to see where is that it does not jibe with the Bible.
My comment on the disagreement that I have with the author, is because he seems to imply that all of greek philosophy is of the world, based on a wrong worldview, and totally against Christianity.
From other sources, I have come to understand that philosophy can aid my theology by giving a framework that I can use.
My Christian Anthropology (previous understanding), makes me believe that the mission of Christians in the world is to redeem the bad parts of cultures, philosophies, beliefs, customs, values, etc. so they align better with God's.
Once one redeems paradigms, traditions, knowledge (secular), etc. much good is to be had for further christian development, and the extension of God's Kingdom.
Like I have stated many times: to me all true truth comes from God, even if it seems to originate from secular sources on Earth.
I will try to get the article you cite. I do appreciate your advice, and thanks.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 10:5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.
I Thessalonians 5:21 but test everything; hold fast what is good.
Blessings.
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