Is Logos 4 theologically biased?
Comments
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Joe Miller said:
There are a lot more resources languishing in pre-pub that would add some good diversity to the Logos Library.
right now, I am very glad they are languishing. But only because my budget would not be able to handle most of them going live in the next 4 or 5 months. I have a lot of Paternoster stuff that is just sitting there. I have already backed out of Zondervan (own most on Pradis), downsized my A/Y collection, deleted a few others (pending College Press, etc) and I still have over $3,000 on prepub. And that doesn't count my payment plan for Portfolio, TCOT/TCNT, and other recent purchases. You just can't do it all. If we could buy more individual volumes, diversity would grow. Having to plunk down 1,000 at a time for sets really drains the budget--and I usually go for those more within my theological spectrum if I have to make a choice (ie, why i didn't buy Hermeneia, although I would love to have them)
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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I need to say something that has been missed so far in this thread. In all likelihood there is much diversity of theological bent amongst the programmers. I highly doubt Logos only hires Calvinistic programmers. That being said, it would be very counterproductive for programmers to bias the searches as this would only create more work as they constantly had to go highjack the work of other programmers who were biasing the searches in a direction they disagreed with. Before long we would have anarchy amongst our beloved Logos programmers and nothing would get done. I think the fact the Logos 4 actually was released is proof enough this did not occur. Just my 2 cents.
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Alan Charles Gielczyk said:
it would be very counterproductive for programmers to bias the searches
fwiw, Alan, my own position is not at all that they would intentionally bias the searches. Nor is it that they have even unintentionally biased the program. From what I can tell, it is a killer program and all of them take great care to make it top notch. That said, it is possible for people to build in bias without realizing it. (and I realize that you were not specifically addressing, necessarily, anything that I wrote)
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Ah, the old, "I don't see any evidence of it, but it must be there" argument.. LOL Sorry brother, I could not resist [;)]Dan DeVilder said:That said, it is possible for people to build in bias without realizing it.
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It is similar to my youthful days when the John Birch Society told me there was a great conspiracy for world domination. I discovered they were right about the conspiracy but wrongly credited mere humans for the devious agenda. This world of Logos is much too big for a successful human effort to hide some truths from Bible students and promote a certain dogma. Now if Logos started giving away resources of a specific doctrinal bent (like a certain other publisher is actually doing!) then maybe there could be some charge laid about bias. But a free download of a single Piper book, or a $1 Dicken's Christmas Carol does not constitute a conspiracy in my book.
I do appreciate Logos not publishing occultic, New Age or Eastern religious texts for the time being. There are only so many resources that can be worked on with the finite resources available. I'd much rather have Tillich and the LOEB library first.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Dan DeVilder said:
That said, it is possible for people to build in bias without realizing it.
Given the basic structure of Logos, built in bias would be far more likely in the tagging of resources rather than in the program code. So let's leave the programmers out of this. [:P] [retired programmer/analyst/manager]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I think it reflects the publishers who are willing to use Logos for their electronic books. What books would you like to see? Who publishes these books? Are they available in other electronic formats? Do you have evidence Logos has refused to publish their books? I suggest you contact these publishers and ask why they are biased against electronic distribution.ReneAtchley said:Without regard to who published the particular set of journals Galaxie reflects, I believe, the general theological approach that Logos has.
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Joe Miller said:
I suggest you contact these publishers and ask why they are biased against electronic distribution
Back in the old days they could have burned the publishers for not converting. [:P] Wait... Sorry that was for heresy or.... Well, all should take advantage of electronic format. Convert !!!![:@][A][
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JohnFrady said:
have been a user of Logos starting on ver.1.6 I love the product but I have a concern that the Word of God may be transitioning out of the hands of the Holy Spirit into the hands of some great and well meaning programmers.
I doubt the Spirit would let go very easily...
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A simple observation about the nature of both the general theological orientation of the libraries available (i.e. company) and what is in those library is not an open ended invitation to either defend or attack Logos. It is not my place to investigate Logos, other publishers, availability of theological resources, motivations of publishers, or industry bias against certain formats. Nor do I particularly care if the product appears in Logos format..its a matter of convenience for my present project. The issue of the op was possible bias of the program which I addressed from my perspective as a long term customer of this company. I believe its time for me to leave this topic.. Thank you for your perspective.
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Same here, just sharing my opinion from my perspective as a customer of 12+ years. [H]ReneAtchley said:The issue of the op was possible bias of the program which I addressed from my perspective as a long term customer of this company.
Okay. Have a nice day.ReneAtchley said:I believe its time for me to leave this topic..
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ReneAtchley said:
While I don't think that the programmers themselves stack the deck in the way the program responds to a general search there does seem to be some serious bias's related to the library material. In a Scholar package with all available Galaxie journals (some 1600 resources) try running a search on Paul Tillich or Christian Existentialism...perhaps 3 hits a piece (you get my point I think). What maybe taken as liberal among Evangelical Conservatives (Barth perhaps) may not be considered liberal in many mainline seminaries at the moment. Nothing wrong with stacking the deck, so to speak, in this direction but I don't really think there are too many "liberals" sneaking around in the libraries Logos is putting together....perhaps I'm wrong.
You may want to peruse the Semeia articles then. You might even find some incredibly morally questionable material.
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Matthew C Jones said:
My concern is more with the new Bble translations not being faithful to the original texts and popular leaders who preach to "itching ears."
That should be the biggest primary concern to us in this age.
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If the goal of Logos is to have the broadest possible customer base then they shouldn't simply cater to Christians. They should cater to non-Christian religions and secularists/atheists too.
Is that the goal of Logos? Obviously not. They cater to a niche and even a niche within a niche. This means there will *always* be some disgruntled customer complaining about why Logos doesn't agree with and, therefore, excludes their theological niche.
"Why doesn't Logos have more resources by John Shelby Spong?"
Isn't that question a bit absurd? I guess that depends. Is your name John Dominic Crossan? Then it probably doesn't look so absurd.
Why does Logos have a bias in favor of the protestant canon? We might as well ask why they have a bias against the Secret Gospel of Mark.
One of the reasons why we see these sorts of complaints is because Logos is seen primarily as a powerful searching and researching tool. Naturally, everyone wants to put that tool to use for their own purposes. I'm sure atheists would love to have a Logos type program for their atheological literature.
perspectivelyspeaking.wordpress.com
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Mike Aubrey said:JohnFrady said:
have been a user of Logos starting on ver.1.6 I love the product but I have a concern that the Word of God may be transitioning out of the hands of the Holy Spirit into the hands of some great and well meaning programmers.
I doubt the Spirit would let go very easily...
Not only that....I'm not even sure what this means? The HS only enlightens "paper book users" or something? [:O]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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JohnFrady said:
How do we know we are getting all sides of an issue? Do the resources available have a balanced perspective on issues of theology?
This is an issue regardless of the media you use to study God's Word. This is where the human aspect comes in -- This is what is called study. Never take a search result and think you've done your work. It takes prayer, hard work, and digging to get a balanced perspective.
JohnFrady said:I have a concern that the Word of God may be transitioning out of the hands of the Holy Spirit
When a person performs a search, he or she is going to get back a plethora of results. Just like going to the library and pulling ten books off the same shelf. They may all be cataloged the same, but that is not the librarian's bias in trying to sway you one way or the other. You pull the books, look through them, weigh the evidence, pray for the Holy Spirit's guidance -- it's all comes back to the person doing the studying...not the librarian, not the programmer.
Elder/Pastor, Hope Now Bible Church, Fresno CA
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Matthew C Jones said:
My concern is more with the new Bble translations not being faithful to the original texts and popular leaders who preach to "itching ears."
Which translations are those?
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ahhhhh, geeesh. i really need glasses. logging on to the forum, i saw this thread title but this time, i read it as the following: Is Logos 4 theologically blessed?
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Mike,Mike Aubrey said:Matthew C Jones said:My concern is more with the new Bble translations not being faithful to the original texts and popular leaders who preach to "itching ears."
Which translations are those?
In keeping with the original poster's question: I am just saying there is a greater danger of being misled by poisoned Bible "translations" than by ancillary works. Everybody knows "Pastor ABC" is not infallible, omniscient and perfect in his every motive. But put "Holy Bible" on the cover and many will never question the content no matter how bizarre the doctrines derived from that particular book may seem.
In the [6] lawless [6] days of the Pre-Rules Forum I mercilessly castigated various paraphrases posing as translations and a couple copyrighted (read "profit motivated" when the Word of God is denied to whole continents) new translations.
Since the best scholars in the world can't come to a consensus on what is the Word of God, I doubt Logos users will ever settle on one "correct" version. I am just happy to have so many versions available for comparison.
fwiw: I like: The Geneva Bible, KJV 1611, The Amplified Bible, The New American Standard, & I'm starting to warm up to the ESV.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
when the Word of God is denied to whole continents
?? which continents??
You've got me curious as to the dates of the earliest translations on each continent. Clearly starting with the most recent we have Australia, North America, South America, Greenland (semi-continent) ... but the moment I think I have a handle on the others I think of a counter possibility:
Europe: Greek and Latin - "original"
Asia (East): Nestorian Christians in China but with tomb stones indicating earlier Christianization
Asia (South): St. Thomasite Christians before end of the first century
Asia (Near East): Syriac, Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek
Africa (North): Latin, Greek, Coptic
Africa (South) -When on the East coast of Africa, I don't even know where the Sub-Saharan boundary is
Anyone know a good source for dates of the first translation by continent, country or language? I'd love to have an almanac of such info in Logos - I'll be puzzling over this all day.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Yes, I think they (Logos) may actually be very theologically biased.
I don't know if you've noticed this or not yet but they seem to be leaning heavily toward Christianity, as a cursory glance at the resources they offer seems to suggest.
But, that's just my opinion.
PS: This is not a serious post!
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Stein Dahl said:
Yes, I think they (Logos) may actually be very theologically biased.
I don't know if you've noticed this or not yet but they seem to be leaning heavily toward Christianity, as a cursory glance at the resources they offer seems to suggest.
But, that's just my opinion.
PS: This is not a serious post!
you mean they are NOT Christian?
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Michael Childs said:You make a point. If there is a problem in deversity in Logos resources, then it probably is more the result of the customers than the company. Logos generally tries to produce what the customers are willing to buy. Logos customers tend to be more evangelical. At least it seems so to me.
There is certainly a wide collection of resources from reformed and baptist resources. Many of these have been available for many years - but it has only been in the last couple of years that I have seen Wesleyan resources/collections being offered via pre-pub or in Community Pricing. I am glad to see these items, but they may have come too late to make an impact on the set of resources available via LOGOS. Given that Wesleyan resources (theologies, commentaries, etc.) are not as available, it will alter the kinds of search results I will get. Two things help --
- I am more interested in Bible resources - scripture is scripture, regardless of my theological persuasion.
- Some of the Wesleyan resources are available in other formats (PDF, txt, etc.). This is more true of Wesleyan theologies than Wesleyan commentaries or Study Bibles, but these are available.
The bias will come because of your library. But your library will be defined by what is available.
Blessings,
Floyd
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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MJ. Smith said:
Anyone know a good source for dates of the first translation by continent, country or language? I'd love to have an almanac of such info in Logos - I'll be puzzling over this all day.
This is precisely why you are a great teacher MJ. Your never-ending inquisitiveness piques my curiosity and I frequently learn new things. Don't stop asking.
MJ. Smith said:?? which continents??
Now I will try to give an answer short & sweet:
1) Zondervan has license restrictions controlling where the NIV can be sold so the proper profit can go to the proper pockets. In the past, Logos had to disable your NIV if you lived in Europe.
2) Lockman Foundation argued over who has the profit rights to their recent venture of a new Japanese Bible translatiion. This opened the floodgates of legal challenges to many Japanese Bible texts resulting in several years before they started to reappear online. Logos offers several Chinese & Korean versions but you have to go back several years to find the only Japanese version done in Logos.
3) The German Bible Society claims rights to the original manuscripts behind the NA27 and consequently forbids online usage by third parties and international sales. The Logos edition of Stuttgart Electronic Study Bible http://www.logos.com/products/details/3005s is a limited collection that I am sure has a handsome license fee.That's what I meant by denying whole continents. If you truly believe you hold the best translation of the actual words of God, how can you deny others access until you have collected your fee? Especially after reading how the poor servant mishandled the one talent entrusted to him.
According to Wikipedia the 1611 KJV is still held in copyright by the Crown of England. I don't hear the Queen asking for her cut of the profits.
DISCLAIMER: I am NOT arguing against "intellectual property rights." I AM criticizing the holders of copyrights for highway robbery & total denial of access. Also I highlighted in purple the Logos specific points of this post.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Ok here is my two cents worth I have not found logos 4 to be theologically bias I guess it depends on the contents of your library I am myself non denominational by choice not premil and I haven't found logos 4 gold edition which I have to be biased however I use logos 4 for background info maps original language and manuscripts and when I feel the need to peruse commentaries I use wordsearch 9 as their commentary packages are reasonable i.e. I have more of the commentaries on that software then in logos Gold which is a hint for logos please look into maybe adding more commentaries to your base packages I long for the day when I only have to use one software and logos is the elder with excellent cross refs inter linears etc.
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Sorry I fuilt the need to add logos 4 inter-lineals, original languages are awesome I didn't want to make it seem like wordsearch 9 is superior in that regard or that it is better or equal to logos 4 just that I find that logos 4 is lacking in commentaries in the base packages.
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I don't think the programmers are biased. I do have to wonder about the books that are made available though. Sometimes it seems a little heavy toward one side of things.
And sadly, I have to disagree about Orthodox representation in Logos. I would say the makeup of Logos is 93.4% Protestant, 6.5% Catholic, and approximately 0.00000000000000000000001% Orthodox (but those are just approximations; I think some resources actually use the word "orthodox" at times!). [;)]
(By the way, I am Protestant [H] )
Brandon
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I'd have to agree with you there, but most books today are outside of older commentaries tend to lead towards evangelicals etc that is just a fact of life traditionalists and or fundelmentalists tend to stick towards bible versions and manuscripts etc. Where I think Logos has room for improvement is in their bundling of various commentaries of a wide denominational and theological backgrounds both modern and older works.
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BrandonVaughn said:
I would say the makeup of Logos is 93.4% Protestant, 6.5% Catholic, and approximately 0.00000000000000000000001% Orthodox (but those are just approximations; I think some resources actually use the word "orthodox" at times!).
(By the way, I am Protestant
)Brandon
Just to verify your accuracy
1) How did you count the Early Church Fathers prior to the Great Schism?
2) Where did you place the Syriac resources?
3) Did you include the Coptic materials that are coming?
I ask because I estimated the Orthodox materials as approximately 0.00000000000000000000002% Orthodox [8-|]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Matthew C Jones said:
In the
lawless days of the Pre-Rules Forum I mercilessly castigated various paraphrases posing as translations and a couple copyrighted (read "profit motivated" when the Word of God is denied to whole continents) new translations. I'd hope you're talking about the Jehovah's Witness' "translation," but they've never claimed it was a paraphrase.
So I'm just going to go ahead and guess that you've never actually spent any time studying & reading up on translation methodology at all.
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