Pre-Pub Pricing (Baker Books)
Comments
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Bob Pritchett said:
I welcome your feedback on whether or not that's important.
I want to begin by saying how much I have appreciated the Pre-pub system in the past. It truly has been a win-win program for me. Thank you very much for many great books at a great price.
This is why I am so alarmed by the changes I have been seeing on the Pre-pub page. I can understand publisher wanting to get "front-list" profits from "front-list" titles. I can also understand the your higher production cost and smaller customer base means that you don't have as much margin as Amazon does with their 50% and if it takes the MSRP to bring "front-line" titles into production today. But such titles do not belong on the Pre-pub page or at least the Pre-pub page needs to modify its description by no longer promises a win-win scenario to your customers.
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David A. Peterson said:P. Keith Larson said:
I will not purchase any Logos format book that is not equal to or less in prices than the already heavily discounted hard copy price
I am not a "comapny man" nor one who celebrates all things Logos, but I think these comparisons are a bit hasty. Heavily discounted copies seldom have the same quality or feel of more expensive copies. A small example is Lewis' "Screwtape Letters" which I can either buy as a "heavily discounted" paperback, or a more expensive leather-bound collector's copy. I think of Logos' indexing, and all the various reposts, comparisons and searches as "leather-binding" and, as a bi-vocational Youth Pastor, with a full-time outside job, a full-time ministry, and a full-time M.Div, student, the quick and through responses that I can achieve using the program are worth the dent, okay big gaping hole in my book budget.
In Christ,
Dave
I have a very large Logos library, 4000+, I can afford to wait it out. If a resource is truly stellar, I am sure it will end up in a L5 or L6 base package. In the mean time I have plenty of other great books to read and use in my Logos library.
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Bob Pritchett said:
I welcome your feedback on whether or not that's important.
Hi Bob,
I think it's WONDERFUL that we have an opportunity to get front-list titles earlier.
Most of the confusion on the forums seems to be around your past policy on prepubs--you've been successful at educating us to expect a discounted price.
I think we're hearing you loud & clear, too, that front-list titles have to pay for themselves before they become eligible for the discounts we're all hoping for (whether via inclusion in collections, or by single title).
To me it looks like there are at least 3 ways forward, all of which I HOPE will keep Logos on the path of getting front-list e-works to us earlier... Here are the 3 I thought of:
- PREPUB. Stay on the current path (introduce front-list titles via prepub). If so, we're likely to continue to be confused with each new introduction of a publishing house (1st Zondervan, now Baker, next...?)
- CONSUMER PRICING. Since you're also concerned about cost recovery, use the other method you have for introducing new titles: consumer pricing.
The main advantage to this method would be that you already have it. The main disadvantage would be the same as with the 1st method: you've already trained us to expect low prices via this method of book purchase. - SOMETHING NEW. Give front-list titles their own space, about which you can educate us on the value of front-list titles, received earlier, & having all the benefits we've come to expect in a Logos resource.
Many blessings on your decision, & thanks for allowing (even inviting) us to weigh in...
Blessings to you!
Grace & Peace,
Bill
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Thank you Bob for your very informative post.
I was involved in Christian publishing for over 20 years--first as a bookstore manager and then as a publisher's rep calling on bookstores. I can affirm that Bob has accurately described some of the factors involved in publishing that most users never consider. If anyone is interested in learning more about the changing world of publishing, read some of Michael Hyatt's (Nelson) blog posts. http://michaelhyatt.com/
Bob also has the unique advantage of being a key player in the digital publishing business.
I vote for Bob providing Logos users the opportunity to buy more recent titles. I understand that by the nature of the business, those may carry higher prices than we have been used to.
I am sold on the Logos electronic library paradigm. I prefer the availability of my study tools in my Logos library instead of a print edition. It is worth more to me! If it is not worth more to others, they are not compelled to purchase the Logos format.
Logos users asked for NICOT/NICNT. Bob delivered.
Logos users asked for Zondervan titles. Bob delivered.
Logos users asked for more Baker reference works. Bob delivered.
**SENTENCE DELETED BY USER**
I expected people using Bible study tools would also show a little more respect for someone who has worked very hard to deliver over 10,000 Christian titles for Bible study. This thread comes after 3 months of constant berating by users over problems with Logos 4.
To the best of my knowledge, Bob and Logos have always exhibited Christian character.
**SENTENCE DELETED BY USER**
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Daniel Lee said:
I can't tell if you're joking or not, but I think we all need to wait a little bit and see if Logos has any response to these concerns and/or if the price changes. In other words, I shouldn't be unwise by jumping on a pre-pub immediately if it's too expensive for my budget, but I also shouldn't assume there's some kind of conspiracy.
I was not suggesting a conspiracy or anything remotely unethical. However, I was not joking. This is a win-lose scenario if I ever saw one. The only conceivable "win" those who are placing these order will get is that they are helping a book go into production that they want in Logos format.
If the auto industry did this, GM for example would have put the Volt on a pre-manufacturing page by calculating the development and production costs, dividing this by how many people they estimate believe in global warming and posting this price on the internet. GM has no risk in development and production and those who purchase the Volt for twice as much as a normal sub-compact have the reward of thinking they have saved the world from a melt down. [:D]
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AMEN!!!Edwin Bowden said:I am sold on the Logos electronic library paradigm. I prefer the availability of my study tools in my Logos library instead of a print edition. It is worth more to me! If it is not worth more to others, they are not compelled to purchase the Logos format.
Logos users asked for NICOT/NICNT. Bob delivered.
Logos users asked for Zondervan titles. Bob delivered.
Logos users asked for more Baker reference works. Bob delivered.
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Edwin Bowden said:
I am disappointed in the tone of many posts on this thread.
What tone? The holier-than-thou tone?
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Gregg stated, "it's unreasonable to expect users to pay the same amount for an e-book as a hardcopy."
I agree; however, the Logos edition of the NIV commentaries is $600 more than the street price of the hardcopy. That hasn't keep it from selling, apparently. This seems to be a trend. I am saving for the NIV commentaries, but I am not sure if I will buy them in hardcopy for $1,000 or the Logos version for $1,600. It becomes a question of stewardship - that and poverty.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
As ususal, Bob is quite reasonable. His point about simultaneous print / e-book release is well taken. I can see why a publisher would want simultaneous release to be equally priced - (though that is not the case with e-book novels released through Kindlle.) A publisher cannot be expected to hurt his own profits.
I prefer my resources through Logos, and appreciate what they offer. It is the quality and variety of what is offered that makes Logos so valuable. I realize that costs.
Of course, reality is that most of us have invested heavily in Logos during the L4 upgrade. Many of us have gone beyond the upgrade and purchased more additonal books to take advantage of the L4 features. Unlike the federal government, my deficit spending must come to an end. I had hoped to be able to replace almost all my paper books with Logos reources. I now see the foolishness of that. I will have to continue to use a variety of formats in study - Logos where possible, paper where necessary financially, pdf, html and whatever else I can afford. I think many are in similar circumstances. The tremendous volume of sales during the L4 startup was never expected to sustain.
I do not think any of us want to participate in any organized boycott of any Logos resources. What I can afford, I will buy. What I can't I will not buy. But I will not be ungrateful to Logos or Bob for the wonderful tool they have given us. I hope they sale a ton of Baker Books. Maybe this will get upgrades to several commentaries already in Logos format out quicker.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
P. Keith Larson said:
I was not suggesting a conspiracy or anything remotely unethical. However, I was not joking. This is a win-lose scenario if I ever saw one. The only conceivable "win" those who are placing these order will get is that they are helping a book go into production that they want in Logos format.Thanks for clarifying, and I see your concern.
Michael Childs said:I do not think any of us want to participate in any organized boycott of any Logos resources. What I can afford, I will buy. What I can't I will not buy. But I will not be ungrateful to Logos or Bob for the wonderful tool they have given us. I hope they sale a ton of Baker Books. Maybe this will get upgrades to several commentaries already in Logos format out quicker.
I agree completely. Very well worded. We have to be wise about how we spend God's resources. I've been thinking about this recently, especially with a little boy on the way in a few months. [:)] I want Logos to do well, and I'll support where I can. I use Logos4 every day, saves me a lot of time in seminary classes, and I'm really excited about all the great books that were part of the upgrade. But for the moment I need to focus on using what I've been blessed to obtain.
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Bob Pritchett said:
If you think the full-retail price for a Baker title is too much, you can buy it in paper at lots of prices, on the Kindle, soon on the iPad, etc. If Baker and Logos are going to charge full-retail for a Logos-compatible edition, it needs to be worth it, in both tagging, functionality, support, and timeliness. If not, you will all take your business elsewhere.
Bob, thank you for the explanation. I certainly am one who is willing to pay a little more than retail (depending on the release) to have it in Logos. I hope that there is a critical mass of people like me who will make Christian publishers quick to see digital as a viable market; if not a duplicate market (I own many in both formats).
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
In some ways, it's up to you. If you value front-list titles enough to pay front-list prices, we'll sell them. If you'd rather pay back-list prices for back-list titles, we'll stop offering these fresh titles and sell just back-list. This is an experiment.
If you think the full-retail price for a Baker title is too much, you can buy it in paper at lots of prices, on the Kindle, soon on the iPad, etc. If Baker and Logos are going to charge full-retail for a Logos-compatible edition, it needs to be worth it, in both tagging, functionality, support, and timeliness. If not, you will all take your business elsewhere.
The good news is, we haven't taken anything of the "old model" away. We're still offering fantastic deals on lots of books on pre-pub. But the old model never had this simultaneous print/e-book release of new titles, with the latest books that are being required by professors, used in today's classrooms, etc.
I welcome your feedback on whether or not that's important.
Bob
I want to join with those who acknowledge and thank you for all that you do. Throughout my dealings with Logos I have been pleased by the efforts to operate your business in an open and Christian manner. Like any business, you have to cover your costs and have a return on what is invested. I have been blessed to have the tools available in Logos over the years.
I have been pleased to take advantage of discounts when they have been available, whether the resources are from the Community Pricing, Pre-Pub or collection routes. I will continue to do that as much as I am (financially) able. At times I have bought products that are not of immediate interest or use for me but, because of the discount, I believe I will benefit in the long run. I am trying to exercise good stewardship.
I like the IDEA of having front-list resources available. As a good steward of my (limited) financial resources, without a discount, I need to more carefully evaluate the usefulness of the Logos resource. If I can wait until I expect to use a resource before I commit to buying it at the same price, then I will be less likely to order the Pre-Pub. If it is a resource that I believe will be useful for me as soon as I can get it into my Logos library, then I will place a Pre-Pub order. That is a different evaluation process than I have used for Pre-Pubs in the past.
I think some of the complaints in this thread relate to expectations and marketing. As others have said, an expectation for a Pre-pub discount has been created. When that does not appear, then people react. A nominal discount would help me psychologically. [:)] Whether or not there is a nominal discount, I think it would be appropriate to separate the "traditional" pre-pubs from these newer front-list resources.
I do hope that this experiment is successful, but I will not be ordering this type of pre-pub as "indiscriminately" as I have ordered pre-pubs in the past.
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Baker might one day see an advantage to provide good front-end discounts on bundles of new titles even if individual eBooks sell at or close to the same as the US retail price.
HOWEVER, for those of us living outside USA, there remain a couple of major advantages to having the title available in Logos format:
- most publisher charge a significant premium over and above the currency exchange rate when they tack on the Canadian or UK price for a new title which we can now get at the lower US retail price
- we do not have to pay significant shipping charges which wipe out any small price discount (like 25% or 33%) that Amazon might offer from US retail
- we do not have to buy bigger houses and more bookshelves to house ever expanding libraries, and we do not have to pay a fortune to ship the library when we re-locate
NEVERTHELESS, if new Baker titles are going to depend on the much smaller base of Logos overseas customers to get into production it is going to take a while longer than it would otherwise, and we SHOULD expect a much lower actual price if it does indeed take years from first print release for these titles to be published electronically.......
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Michael Childs said:
I hope they sale a ton of Baker Books.
Are you sure about this? The way capitalism works is the law of supply and demand. If there is a high demand for books in Logos format at 100% of MSRP. If Logos learns their customers will support such high prices, in time the average price of all Logos books will go up, because prices always raise to the level the market will allow. There is nothing moral or immoral about it. This is just how the system works.
As a consumers our only recourse is not to purchase products we believe are over priced, if enough people agree with us the price will go down, if not enough, the price will go up. So I hope that Logos does not sale any Baker Books at 100% MSRP. This is not an attack against Logos. It is just my way of participating in the free market system.
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P. Keith Larson said:
So I hope that Logos does not sale any Baker Books at 100% MSRP.
What I see is a much larger percentage of books in pre-pub that are of interest to me - I hope that the Logos/Baker venture is a success so that a broader range of materials are supported.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Edwin,
I agree that Bob and the Logos crew have done a great job in many areas, but they do make mistakes, and I have seen a few, but only a few if any posts that were out of line.
Before you start thinking I an crazy, I want to remind you that Bob has asked for his customers to tell him not only when he does what they like, but also when he does something they don't like.
I have spent years of my life coaching and training pro athletes, one of them has won 5 national pro championships. In each case the athletes that do well are the ones that learn to work on their weaknesses not just on their strengths. We often kid one another that the winner is the one that has lost the most and never gave up learning from losing.
You may not agree with me but I think these forums are some of the best feed back that Logos will ever get and if they want to build the best company and product, they will learn not only from the positive feed back but from the negative.
I am afraid that too many of us as believers see failure, or at least someone pointing out something they see as a flaw, as being bad.
That is seldom case in my experience, but rather our attitude towards such advice says more about us, than the fact that we are not perfect.
In my opinion, Bob most likely puts a high value on these disagreements, even if we are wrong, and he knows it, at least he knows how some of his customers see things.
In Christ,
Jim
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The pre-pub program clearly states that customers should expect a discount, when it isn't delivered, there is going to be issues with customers who expect the discount for signing up. Maybe the wording needs to be changed, so we don't expect too much.
Logos books are kind of a catch 22 for me (yes I read the book)... They carry more of a risk, (I have books that are over 100 yrs old and I don't get that kind of shelf life guarentee with my Logos resources)... yet my Logos resources are more 'usable'...
Maybe we have been spoiled in expecting discounts.... however, if it is part of the pre-pub program, I don't think those expectations of discounts we are accustomed to are out of line...
Which brings me back to maybe the pre-pub page needs some updating concerning it's wording and what the customer should expect... (which has always been a discount)...
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Check the Pre-pubs page again (perhaps a "refresh" may be needed), the wording has already been changed to reflect the addition of the Baker products using the new model for their new-release titles......
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Honestly, as I've thought about this, why are people complaining. Having Baker at a price that isn't what you think it is worth isn't any worse than not having it at all. I'd way rather have the option of purchasing it (or the option of not purchasing it) than having no option at all.
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
David J. Wilson said:
Check the Pre-pubs page again (perhaps a "refresh" may be needed), the wording has already been changed to reflect the addition of the Baker products using the new model for their new-release titles......
Ah, yes... thank you for pointing that out for me. I see the wording has changed a bit. Thank you
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I think the freedom to call the president a dictator is what makes me proud to be an American.
Remember that old joke about the American talking to the Russian. The American says, "In my country I can stand on any street corner and shout the President of the USA is a crook!" The Russian says, "We can do that in my country, too." The American replied, "You can say the the premier of Russia is a crook?" The Russian said, "No, they shoot you for that, but we can say the President of the USA is a crook."
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
MJ. Smith said:P. Keith Larson said:
So I hope that Logos does not sale any Baker Books at 100% MSRP.
What I see is a much larger percentage of books in pre-pub that are of interest to me - I hope that the Logos/Baker venture is a success so that a broader range of materials are supported.
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-->I don’t think anyone wants to see Baker or Logos fail (this
would mean the end of digital books in Logos format at any price). I don’t think
anyone wants Baker not to offer a broader range of materials (most of us would
like the entire collection of most publishers to be in Logos format).What many of us do not want is Baker and Zondervan new
pricing structure to succeed. If it does other publishers will follow imitating what happened with Amazon (and why
shouldn’t they if they think that customers are ready to pay whatever they
charge), the pre-pub system will become irrelevant and all books that promise
to or already generate a certain level of interest will be sold at MSRP until
the demand subsides significantly.I still do not think that the industry can sustain such high
prices especially when there is a competition from the “used books” market.I spent around $2000 last year on prepubs and other
discounts, with the new pricing system, I will not spend $2000 on fewer
resources (which would be ideal for the publishers) I intend to spend much less
and only on what I absolutely need: gone the days of buying a resource just
because I think I might need it and I might miss a good price. If I end up
spending only $500 this year, the publishers will have a higher margin per
product but they will see a drop in revenue from me. Just multiply that by thousands
and thousands of customers and it clearly becomes a lose-lose situation for
everybody (except maybe my wallet).This new development is a wake up call and a reminder that I should be more discriminating in what I buy (which is not good for Logos from a business perspective)
With higher prices, Logos can only target a niche market and
might not be able to expand. Customer will only convert to digital if they feel
that they are getting a better value than what print offerings give them. With
substantially higher prices, it becomes difficult to make that argument. a feel less enthusiastic recommending an electronic book at full MSRP to a student making minimum wage when they can get it for a substantially lower price new or used in printI would like to see Baker offer a broader range of materials
but I do not want it to be accessible to (or afforded by) only a select few. I
would like to Logos customer base expand and see the company take advantage of
the economy of scale and offer products that have exceptional value because of
the added functionality and its unbeatable price. If the current model
succeeds, it is unlikely that the digital market will grow in any significant
way considering the nature of the product (it is not a vanity product that can
ride the name brand or the "cool" factor) and the customers (many of them students or in a ministry
with significant budget constraints and an obligation to take good stewardship
over mere convenience).Alain
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David J. Wilson said:
Check the Pre-pubs page again (perhaps a "refresh" may be needed), the wording has already been changed to reflect the addition of the Baker products using the new model for their new-release titles......
Logos is almost always good at dealing with situation and issues that arise and I am grateful that Bob is always willing to address our concerns from the very top.
However, Logos could do even better by preempting the occurrence of the issue in the first place by communicating changes in advance as part of a PR/marketing effort. A lot of frustration could have been avoided for Logos 4 deployment or this most recent prepub issue if the changes were communicated beforehand in light of these rather foreseeable reactions.
It is never a good thing when customers discover a change in policy or business model as a result of someone complaining about it. In those situations the only thing that is left is damage control and "selling" the changes becomes an almost impossible task.
My advice to Logos is to be more proactive and less reactive and try harder to identify potential explosive situations and put a positive spin on it and explain what is going on before the complaints start coming.
Alain
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Alain Maashe said:
I will not spend $2000 on fewer
resources (which would be ideal for the publishers) I intend to spend much less
and only on what I absolutely need: gone the days of buying a resource just
because I think I might need it and I might miss a good price. If I end up
spending only $500 this year, the publishers will have a higher margin per
product but they will see a drop in revenue from me.On the other hand, I spent considerably less than you last year because with the exception of two very expensive series that I have to plan for, there was little available of interest to me that I considered to be advantageous in e-format. However, with the increase of Baker Academic material, I have already doubled my pre-pub commitment. And I am far more apt to encourage friends to move towards electronic media for Bible study.
I have never considered electronic format as a "cheap alternative" and I troll used bookstores on a regular basis - mortar and brick as well as online. I see the move as broadening appeal moving out of rather than moving into a niche market. I am retired and on a fixed income - Logos' pricing policies have no effect on my moral judgment regarding good stewardship.
I fear that the reaction to the Baker partnership shows that I'm as much "a fish out of water" on business assumptions as on Bible study methodology and basic theology. Luckily, with recent Logos development, I think the tide is coming towards me. [mo] (moon governs the tides).
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
What I see is a much larger percentage of books in pre-pub that are of interest to me - I hope that the Logos/Baker venture is a success so that a broader range of materials are supported.
Without a doubt we will have more front-line books available, but at the cost of all front-line books going up in price to 100% of MSRP. Below is a clipping for a very attractive front-line resource under the old pre-pub price structure. If this Baker experiment is successful, what motivation does IVP or any other publisher have to sell their books at less than 100% MSRP?
The law of supply and demand will find the highest price Logos can sell books for, just like the laws of gravity and friction can make me fall when I clear my drive later today. However, I don't plan to help the laws of gravity and friction anymore than I have to! As a consumer it behooves us to not help out price inflation either.
NOW THIS IS A GREAT FRONT-LINE PRE-PUB!
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P. Keith Larson said:
Without a doubt we will have more front-line books available, but at the cost of all front-line books going up in price to 100% of MSRP.
- My micro-economics class was taken sufficiently long ago that I won't argue economic theory
- Competition drives prices down - check Amazon book prices
- I am willing to take my chances on the price of IVP books for the opportunity provided by Baker produces. I would also hope that the Baker experiment goes well enough that St. Vladimir Seminary Press, The Liturgical Press, Augsburg/Fortress, Jewish Publication Society etc. allow Logos greater access to their titles.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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A variety of issues come up in this thread, and some of them get confused. Worse, some people make suggestions to fix things that would do exactly the opposite.
As some have correctly pointed out, the PrePub idea (which is a Logos concept, not a "generic" idea fundamental to e-books) is to offer discounts to those who help Logos cover production costs...thus a "win-win" as the saying goes and the PrePub page promises. Now, with Zondervan and Baker, the pattern of providing new titles at PrePub discount is taken away...there is no discount. That's fine, in light of Bob's explanation (though neither Logos nor Z & B will see a red cent from me). But now I see some folks suggesting that the PrePub page should be changed to reflect "the new reality" that sometimes "win-win" doesn't apply, or that discounts won't always be offered.
That's ridiculous.
No...the "new reality" is that sometimes Logos will offer items that are NOT PrePubs. Zondervan's bloated and overpriced all-or-nothing "discount" package is a PrePub, though one I won't touch on principle. The individually priced items from the Z catalog that sell at SRP are NOT PrePubs, and Logos should stop calling them PrePubs. I am capitalizing "PrePub" on purpose because that is a name Logos itself has established for a certain set of criteria, a criterion they are abusing by calling things PrePubs just because they are "new" to the Logos stable and/or catalog. The Baker items ARE NOT PrePubs...period. The fact that they are being offered before they are available (i.e. previous to being published) does not make them PrePubs. In other words, the may be pre-pubs, but not PrePubs.
Logos, rather than igniting unnecessary confusion over "in-house" semantics that they have themselves engendered, should simply offer non-discounted "pre-pubs" on a different page with a different name...something catchy like "Non-Discounted New Items That Can Be Purchased for 25-75% less on Amazon TODAY and Be In Your Hands In 72 Hours...Not 72 Weeks". That would end the confusion, and also speak a bit of truth to power.
On the issue of increasing potential "availability" of material from various publishers and the concept that rolling over to expose our soft underbellies to the corporate machines will make their entrance into the Logos marketplace more palatable, I'm can only shake my head in stunned disbelief. That is a martyrdom complex run amok...it almost sounds like an abused wife who stays with the guy she wants to "love" her because he reminds her of "daddy", who likewise abused her and she hopes to somehow make everything turn out right. Jacob, I'm sure your a swell guy, but with comments like...
Jacob Hantla said:I certainly am one who is willing to pay a little more than retail (depending on the release) to have it in Logos. I hope that there is a critical mass of people like me who will make Christian publishers quick to see digital as a viable market; if not a duplicate market (I own many in both formats).
...I frankly don't think I have any other way to see you except as the enemy. Your cheerful willingness to pay top dollar is bizarre and adversarial to the interests of every Logos customer who wants and in some cases needs to squeeze as much value out of the limited budgets they can direct toward Biblical resources. It is also the kind of attitude that causes a publisher to salivate...easy pickin's always whet a carnivore's appetite. Having been in sales, I know that the customer who lets on that price is no object gets raked over the coals compared to a wise customer who displays the normal demeanor of cost consciousness. MJ's concern above, that other publishers be enticed to enter the Logos market, is made of similar stuff. If the publlishers he/she [sorry...but the initials leave me clueless] mentioned can't see the Logos marketplace as one of their best potential markets, they are blind. Keith's recurrent comments about the marketplace and how it functions are straight to the point.
As a Logos Portfolio owner who is not well-pleased with L4 (I basically avoid it except for specialty searches), I am still grateful for what Logos has done...up to a point. I am not a pastor/minister nor a teacher/professor, so the "attention" or "discounts" or whatever people in those categories may receive (I know they get some kind of special attention, because I get asked if I am in one of those groups whenever I call CS) is not proffered to me. No, I pay the "regular" price (whatever it may be in a given situation) out of pocket. I'm not blowing an assigned "book budget" but rather my own hard-earned Benjamins. I personally find that even the PrePub prices in many instances are obnoxiously bloated. I am aware that there are "costs" to doing business...welcome to Free Enterprise, the water is extremely warm. But as I pointed out in a thread elsewhere, there is a principle related to the whole e-book concept that seems to be getting lost in the giddiness of what these resources can do for our research as a result of hyperlinking.
These days, for some odd reason, the very high-ticket items, such as ABD & ABible, Word, ICC, NICxx, and the host of other similar multi-volume items that were once purchased almost exclusively by institutions or by groups who could share the cost burden (and the resource), are now, by fiat of the sacred EULA, supposed to be purchased per user. That's well nigh to insane. Simply from a historical perspective, there was a time when a purchased hardcopy book could be read by anybody who laid hands on it...and don't you just know it, it's still that way! Suddenly though, purely as a result of the improved utility of the digital resource, the expectation has spawned that EACH AND EVERY SOUL WHO DEIGNS TO PERUSE A GIVEN RESOURCE AS AN E-BOOK IS EXPECTED TO PURCHASE THEIR OWN COPY. That's unadulterated crap. Unless...
Now, perhaps...because of resultant technology, maybe it is true that the practicality and logistics of the medium mean that the concept of "to each his own" is the best and most workable method of delivery for these resources. But if that is the case, THEN there ought to be a recognition of the fact that suddenly MANY MORE copies of the resources are going to be purchased than was ever the case before. That sudden spike in sales should initiate a significant price reduction in the resources...emphasis on the word SIGNIFICANT. You don't want to reduce the price? Fine...then forgo the "to each his own" concept. Simply recognize and AUTHORIZE the blatantly obvious notion that encyclopedias and dictionaries are inherently designed to be used by MULTIPLE USERS.
I'm not suggesting something for nothing--I've paid many thousands of dollars against that concept. I'm saying that you (the producer) get a choice...you can charge the consumer the standard fee for items DESIGNED to be used by multiple parties AND FACILITATE that method of usage (say for instance allowing me and 4-6 other Logos users to pool our resources so that we can share the financial burden of high-ticket items). Or enforce a "per user" system but compensate the customer by reducing the cost SUBSTANTIALLY...and I mean on the order of base packages but for ALL items offered in the Logos library (with perhaps a 1-2 year window for the newest items). What I find obscene is the idea that "we're going to make you pay per user (a historical anomaly) AND charge you more in the process."
Oh...those of you (not the Logos faculty) who seem to earn your living as unabashed Logos apologists, hammering any comment that so much as insinuates Logos hasn't been delivered unto us, the unwashed masses, in a state of sublime perfection, while you characterize any customer suggestion that "all things Logos are less than perfect" to be an infraction akin to a mortal sin...save it. Better yet...stuff it. I'm frankly sick and tired of your blather. As the guy who trains world class profession athletes said above...and anyone with higher than a grade school education knows...criticism is the path to improvement. Your Christian pose isn't Christianity. Stop the stormtrooper shtick and let people who have dropped $XXXXX.00 putting Bob's kids through college have their say...they are entitled to it. I don't need to hear you say Bob can run his own business--again--and again. I'm a customer giving a businessman a hint as to how to successfully pick my pocket. Gripes are part of the package. Please save the sanctimonious Pharisaical sham for someone who won't call it out for the holier-than-thou hypocritical farce it really is.
One more thing...L4 isn't perfect. Get over it.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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With the launch of L4, Logos has done more than just change the engine to be much better. They have changed their philosophy and strategy. I for one think it will bring a windfall in the short run but will not survive the long haul. Many think their new style and philosophy is the best thing since slice bread. And that is great. Others are cutting back severely on their purchases, believing that the new philosophy is a big mistake. If you pay retail price during pre pub stage, you will can still order the resource later once it is out of pre pub stage at the same price. Why, therefore, would you want to pre order unless you want to make sure the resource makes it to publication? There is no incentive to pre ordering
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I fail to see from where you are getting this change in philosophy and strategy.
This is an additional way of doing some new things not a change for everything.
For most cases the pre-pub concept and significant discounts remain as always.What has happened is that a couple of new additions have been made with a different approach, the whole pre-pub concept has not changed.
Zondervan have offered some of their titles, and Baker have offered some new titles rather than just their older ones. If neither of them has yet learned that they can sell more to Logos users if they follow the earlier pattern and offer a significant pre-pub discount, then they will miss out. Apparently they have some inertia internally which is far from aligned to selling via the Logos format. We can prove to them that their reluctance is well founded by avoiding their offerings.
I think you are making an erroneous assumption however if you think we will always have the opportunity to pick the new titles up later if we do nothing now. If not enough sales are likely per these pre-pubs then no Logos edition will be produced. Then your only option will be a paper copy. Those who are satisfied with that state of affairs need do nothing.
The pre-pub concept is and always has been a means of testing whether or not there is enough interest to produce a Logos edition of the title. If there is not enough interest it will just not happen. Both Zondervan and Baker are obviously somewhat reluctant to go the Logos route. If Logos customers show lack of interest too, this will confirm to both of them that they should not bother offereing titles in Logos format. Win-win ? Hardly.....
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I have to agree with David and Mark in their opposition to the new sales strategy.
It is being implemented under a program that has historically been marketed as a means of providing discounts on products for customers wiling to share in the financial risk of Logos publishing the resources
There are some who will bash me for my statement, but here goes:
In my opinion calling the Zondervan and Baker products Pre-Pubs could be looked upon as false advertising. I feel that Logos is allowing it's loyal customers to be taken advantage of by marketing them in this fashion.
I have purchased many Logos products in Pre-pub. I will not be purchasing any under the Zondervan Baker model.
I already have Zondervan in Pradis 6. If Zondervan insists on the current pricing structure with no discount to current owners I will not be re-purchasing something I already own.
Looks like Baker is using the same model. Some books look pretty good in Pre-pub. Most do not. To those of you who enjoy being price gouged enjoy yourself. If I need it I will buy it. If not I will not
To those of you who would reply to this condemning me for not agreeing with the current direction of Logos "don't". You'll only be giving me your opinion. As you can see, I have my own.
If you want to be taken advantage of go ahead and enjoy it. I won't be joining you.
I have purchased and enjoyed many of the benefits that Logos software provides. I appreciate the things that Bob and the company try to do for us "the customers". But keep in mind we "customers" pay for this software. It is not a gift. I hope to remain a "customer", but I don't agree with paying more for electronic resources than I would pay for them in paper.
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