Pre-Pub Pricing (Baker Books)
Comments
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David Paul said:
Oh...those of you (not the Logos faculty) who seem to earn your living as unabashed Logos apologists, hammering any comment that so much as insinuates Logos hasn't been delivered unto us, the unwashed masses, in a state of sublime perfection, while you characterize any customer suggestion that "all things Logos are less than perfect" to be an infraction akin to a mortal sin...save it. Better yet...stuff it. I'm frankly sick and tired of your blather. As the guy who trains world class profession athletes said above...and anyone with higher than a grade school education knows...criticism is the path to improvement. Your Christian pose isn't Christianity. Stop the stormtrooper shtick and let people who have dropped $XXXXX.00 putting Bob's kids through college have their say...they are entitled to it. I don't need to hear you say Bob can run his own business--again--and again. I'm a customer giving a businessman a hint as to how to successfully pick my pocket. Gripes are part of the package. Please save the sanctimonious Pharisaical sham for someone who won't call it out for the holier-than-thou hypocritical farce it really is.
One more thing...L4 isn't perfect. Get over it.
Geesh David Paul, do you feel better now? Your tirade totally obliterates any sense you bring to this discussion. Gentleness of response would go a long, long way. We are all guilty of not doing it, but you go wayyy overboard here. We are called to be gentle, even with those who oppose us.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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David J. Wilson said:
Both Zondervan and Baker are obviously somewhat reluctant to go the Logos route. If Logos customers show lack of interest too, this will confirm to both of them that they should not bother offereing titles in Logos format. Win-win ? Hardly.....
Here is a suggestion, and an open invitation: Zondervan and Baker, we, Logos Users all—who have spent into the thousands each year, in many cases—ask you to enter this discussion with us. We are YOUR customers too, and we believe your insight and interaction with us will go a long way to figuring out how to make something work out, for you, and for us. No need to keep Bob Pritchett as the sole spokesman and explainer. We value your resources and we value our own, as well.
Join us in this discussion, please.
Now, someone gussy that up a bit and see if they will respond. [O]
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Blair, thank you so much for asking the question. I looked at several of the Baker pre-pubs and instantly began to wonder about the price. Shortly thereafter, I saw your post in the forum which, based upon the discussion, even got Bob involved. Many of the posts, along with Bob's explanation, helped me to understand the pricing system a little more. Now that we have 24 inches of snow outside, and it's still snowing, I will have a lot of extra time to review all the conversation, as it relates to your initial question, in this thread. Your inquiry helped me a lot!
Be blessed, my brother!
Christina
iMac 27 inch, 3.1 GHz Core i5, 1T HD, 4 GB RAM
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Dan DeVilder said:David J. Wilson said:
Both Zondervan and Baker are obviously somewhat reluctant to go the Logos route. If Logos customers show lack of interest too, this will confirm to both of them that they should not bother offereing titles in Logos format. Win-win ? Hardly.....
Here is a suggestion, and an open invitation: Zondervan and Baker, we, Logos Users all—who have spent into the thousands each year, in many cases—ask you to enter this discussion with us. We are YOUR customers too, and we believe your insight and interaction with us will go a long way to figuring out how to make something work out, for you, and for us. No need to keep Bob Pritchett as the sole spokesman and explainer. We value your resources and we value our own, as well.
Join us in this discussion, please.
Now, someone gussy that up a bit and see if they will respond.
Very well said Dan! Zondervan and Baker need to know that this new type of "PrePub" feels like an threat or ultimatum to many of us: "You Logos customers pay the highest possible price and commit before hand to purchase our products or we will take our books and go home." My knee jerk response is "fine then, you take your books home and I will keep my money." This is a PR disaster in the making.
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David J. Wilson said:
I think you are making an erroneous assumption however if you think we will always have the opportunity to pick the new titles up later if we do nothing now. If not enough sales are likely per these pre-pubs then no Logos edition will be produced. Then your only option will be a paper copy. Those who are satisfied with that state of affairs need do nothing.
I am willing to assume that Zondervan and Baker Books are going to be involved in electronic publishing in one form or another and that if Logos is not a competitive option, they will eventually use some other format/delivery mechanism; maybe less powerful, but more affordable. I expect market forces will continue to play a part in the future of electronic books.
On a related note, I do not think that Zondervan and Baker Books are dictating to Logos how to present their offerings to Logos customers. Logos cannot reveal the terms and conditions they have with publishers, and it is possible that Logos is obligated to offer Zondervan and Baker Books products at SRP until after the products hit the market place, after 30 days, or something. Alternatively, it is possible that Logos has independently decided to offer the products at SRP until they know what path to take on pricing. I think it is highly unlikely that Logos was directed to list the new products in Pre-Pub. That was a Logos decision.
Context: I am a relatively new Logos user, but have used other Bible software for years. I am pleased with Logos 3, learning and excited about Logos 4 (love being able to get to my books with my iPhone), and I am looking forward to the future of electronic publishing and the power of digital books (though I am lover of bound books and the printed page). These forums are very useful, have great contributors, and it is great to see Bob and the Logos staff involved with the thoughts and opinions of their customers/users. Thanks.
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Dan DeVilder said:David Paul said:
Oh...those of you (not the Logos faculty) who seem to earn your living as unabashed Logos apologists, hammering any comment that so much as insinuates Logos hasn't been delivered unto us, the unwashed masses, in a state of sublime perfection, while you characterize any customer suggestion that "all things Logos are less than perfect" to be an infraction akin to a mortal sin...save it. Better yet...stuff it. I'm frankly sick and tired of your blather. As the guy who trains world class profession athletes said above...and anyone with higher than a grade school education knows...criticism is the path to improvement. Your Christian pose isn't Christianity. Stop the stormtrooper shtick and let people who have dropped $XXXXX.00 putting Bob's kids through college have their say...they are entitled to it. I don't need to hear you say Bob can run his own business--again--and again. I'm a customer giving a businessman a hint as to how to successfully pick my pocket. Gripes are part of the package. Please save the sanctimonious Pharisaical sham for someone who won't call it out for the holier-than-thou hypocritical farce it really is.
One more thing...L4 isn't perfect. Get over it.
Geesh David Paul, do you feel better now? Your tirade totally obliterates any sense you bring to this discussion. Gentleness of response would go a long, long way. We are all guilty of not doing it, but you go wayyy overboard here. We are called to be gentle, even with those who oppose us.
It is true that we are called to be gentle with our oppressors but even our LORD was angered and threw a tantrum over how worshippers were being ripped off. Now it is the student's of HIs Word to whom Baker, Z (and even Logos to an extent) have become the money changers.
As much as I would love to add some Z & Baker to my meagre electronic collection, the $$ asked makes it way out of reach.
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Sandy Turnbull said:
It is true that we are called to be gentle with our oppressors but even our LORD was angered and threw a tantrum over how worshippers were being ripped off. Now it is the student's of HIs Word to whom Baker, Z (and even Logos to an extent) have become the money changers.
As much as I would love to add some Z & Baker to my meagre electronic collection, the $ asked makes it way out of reach.
We are not doing business in Church (as the money changers were) we are in an open market. B and Z are not ripping people off. They are charging retail value. They did not mark the retail up, but are charging fair price.(what the market deems fair) Those are new titles and are expected to be that price. Over time I am sure the price will go down. The problem is we see those titles in pre-pub and expected them to be discounted. We just need a separate sub-domain for (new titles that are new and not discounted). The reasoning for the pricing was not explain at first, but Bob took the time out of his busy schedule to explain the logic behind it (and invited all of us to give us our thoughts). I believe the answer is, create another category. Keep pre-pub for discounted material. Most of us have expressed we will not support full priced books in a pre-pub fashion. As I stated before ( if a brand new hot off the press reference collection comes out, I will probably opt to purchase it at full price)if I really need the resource. I will not do so for leisure reading material...I will most likely in all honestly wait until the titles are offered at a discount rate.
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You are free to assume that both Zondervan and Baker will one day become heavily involved in eBooks in one form or another.
Myself, I see a parallel between Zondervan and IBM: thirty years back a world leader in Computer Industry, eventually pioneering the entry into the personal computer market, but ultimately unable to fully make the transition and today "missing" from the home computer market.....
Seems earily similar: Leading paper book publisher, pioneering via Pradis (but as a reluctant extra, similar to IBM's PC compared to their mainframe base), and with the current posture via Logos, perhaps ready to be bypassed by others.
Perhaps forgetful that the objective is to take the works of a variety of authors and publish them to an appropriate market in a form prefered by the market, Zondervan seem perhaps overly bound by a concept of their own ownership and control of copyright and that the media must be primarily paper. They may find themselves bypassed. A decade from now Logos may find themselves, if they too can adapt fast enough, dealing more directly with the next generation of authors, ultimately by-passing those publishers who clung too long to paper and marketing via bookstores. Even with mail order books and Amazon and the like pushing many local bookstores out of the marketplace, books are still inherintly heavy, cost a lot to ship (especially out of the country), and take up a lot of space when collected.
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Bob Pritchett said:
Everyone is trying to figure out pricing in the new world of digital content.
Bob,
The thing I don't like about your comments is that just when I feel justified in getting mad about something, you come along and deflate me. I really dislike the pricing of Logos books and don't like spending more for an electronic copy than for a book copy, but at least now I have some idea of why the pricing is what it is.
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Bah...I haven't even updated my interface to L4 because it seems like a waste of money to me....in 12 to 18 months it will be available at a severely discounted price. I am still wondering why I need targums whatever those are from L3...another wasted interface. My philosophy buy what I need when I need it for the project I'm working on. Good selection of books in the library, way to expensive on nearly all the products above Scholar package, and several orphan interfaces will happen when the next great leap forward hits with L5 (Hal 2000 I suspect). Nothing unethical as far as I can see....just another family company going the route of Microsoft...just hope a better cheaper product doesn't hit before Logos hog ties the multi platform e-book environment. Talk about price increases then...lol.
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P. Keith Larson said:
Without a doubt we will have more front-line books available, but at the cost of all front-line books going up in price to 100% of MSRP. Below is a clipping for a very attractive front-line resource under the old pre-pub price structure. If this Baker experiment is successful, what motivation does IVP or any other publisher have to sell their books at less than 100% MSRP?
-Well said and great point Keith. Undoubtedly if the Zondervan/Baker 'experiment' is successful we will see an increase of prices across the board... Some may say 'we' (the majority) are complaining too much, but those complaints are going to help the rest... I've spent thousands and have every right to complain. (granted there is a right and wrong way to go about it)
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Blair Laird said:
They are charging retail value. They did not mark the retail up, but are charging fair price.(what the market deems fair) Those are new titles and are expected to be that price.
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-->The jury is still out as to whether or not the market (in which us the
customers are a major component) deems the price to be fair (many here do not
agree with that assessment).The argument according to which prices are MSRP because we are dealing with
new titles that are expected to be that price is not validJesus according to Scripture has
been out since 2002 (some of the research might be already dated) with a
paperback edition having been issued for at least three years, however, the
prepub price is still the full-retail price. Here it is clearly not a matter of
new resources that "are expected to be that price". it is also
obvious that not many here expect or are planning to buy new resources at full
MSRP but expect something similar to what is done with print resources that are
substantially discounted even before publication by most retailers.The problem is not really the real value of those books (including costs
that might be unknown to the buyer), the problem is the perceived value of the
books and the fact that the perceived value is greatly influenced by the
discounted price of the print edition and past pricing policies in the prepub
system.As some have mentioned, many new releases have been published through the old
prepub system, it is hard to sell the necessity for a new system (whether or
not it has real merits and is dictated by the cost structure). It is all about
perception and the perception is not good.Alain
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Jeremiah Daniel Morris said:
Some may say 'we' (the majority) are complaining too much,
On my part I am not complaining. I simply see a change at Logos in their philosophy and strategy. It is just a fact. It may be justified, and it may not be justified. It is just a fact. And I can no longer justify the amount of money I have invested in Logos. When you buy hard copy books, you can share them with family and lend them to friends. The digital world is not the same, I understand that. But the stranglehold on not allowing family members to enjoy the library...I would rather have spent $6000 over the years on resources that can be shared than on those that cannot.
I understand Logos' position; I respect it; it has saved me thousands as I have canceled many pre pubs. I was hoping Libronix would become the standard format for digital Bible resources. Now I see it is not going to become a standard format, just an elite format, one that we all hope will last a long time, but one that will not be a model as adobe made pdf documents to be.
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Bob Pritchett said:
Electronic resources are not inherently cheaper to produce than paper;
I've probably been mislead but it has been propagated by major media that publishers now prepare their new books electronically first, then deliver that to the presses for paper based publication I know part of the Logos preparation includes tagging & other features not relative to the print media but it seems it should be a tad faster starting with digital source instead of "reverse conversion" back from paper books.
Bob Pritchett said:The good news is, we haven't taken anything of the "old model" away. We're still offering fantastic deals on lots of books on pre-pub. But the old model never had this simultaneous print/e-book release of new titles, with the latest books that are being required by professors, used in today's classrooms, etc.
I think it is great for seminary students to have digital versions of their academic titles. I am interested to see how long it takes before the paper book industry gets around to publishing works that originate in digital format only. I am so happy Logos published An Exposition on Prayer in the Bible (5 Vols.) http://www.logos.com/products/details/3439 by Dr. Jim Rosscup. I imagine there are other great works that have been written yet remain unpublished. If these current top line resources could be highlighted separately from the sale prices in Pre-Pubs it would be easier to ponder their purchase. The shock of going from a $12 public domain tome to an $87 academic essay pamphlete is pretty stark sometimes.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Alain Maashe said:
The problem is not really the real value of those books (including costs
that might be unknown to the buyer), the problem is the perceived value of the
books and the fact that the perceived value is greatly influenced by the
discounted price of the print edition and past pricing policies in the prepub
system.I must say that this point hits the nail on the head.
If the last 20, or so, years have shown anything, they have shown that consumers will gravitate to the lowest pricing model. Even to the point of their own detriment. A great example is the "big box" retailers, while people kick and scream about the unfairness, they shop there to the point of putting their neighbor out of business, and making their own "down town" community a barren wasteland...
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Alain Maashe said:
Here it is clearly not a matter of
new resources that "are expected to be that price". it is also
obvious that not many here expect or are planning to buy new resources at full
MSRP but expect something similar to what is done with print resources that are
substantially discounted even before publication by most retailers.Why do you feel that you deserve a discount ? If you dont like the price (it is a free market) you can purchase it somewhere else at a cheaper rate. Neither Logos nor Baker owes me anything.I have seen a lot of people on this point with the (self entitlement attitude). I have paid for my books therefore I am owed the books I paid for. No one owes me anything beyond that. No one owes me a cheaper rate, but by me not purchasing their material they will get the point. I am with you. I believe digital resources should be cheaper seeing as there is a one time manufacturing fee (putting it in digital format). However no one owes me a discounted rate. As a business they have the right to charge whatever they want. They will not stay profitable if people refuse to pay their price.
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JimVanSchoonhoven said:
Edwin,
I agree that Bob and the Logos crew have done a great job in many areas, but they do make mistakes, and I have seen a few, but only a few if any posts that were out of line.
Before you start thinking I an crazy, I want to remind you that Bob has asked for his customers to tell him not only when he does what they like, but also when he does something they don't like.
I have spent years of my life coaching and training pro athletes, one of them has won 5 national pro championships. In each case the athletes that do well are the ones that learn to work on their weaknesses not just on their strengths. We often kid one another that the winner is the one that has lost the most and never gave up learning from losing.
You may not agree with me but I think these forums are some of the best feed back that Logos will ever get and if they want to build the best company and product, they will learn not only from the positive feed back but from the negative.
I am afraid that too many of us as believers see failure, or at least someone pointing out something they see as a flaw, as being bad.
That is seldom case in my experience, but rather our attitude towards such advice says more about us, than the fact that we are not perfect.
In my opinion, Bob most likely puts a high value on these disagreements, even if we are wrong, and he knows it, at least he knows how some of his customers see things.
In Christ,
Jim
Jim,
One of the things that has made Logos outstanding as a business is Bob's openness. I was amazed at how often he responded over the last 3 months since the release of L4. His posts have been timely, direct, informative and rational. His attitude towards Logos customers has always been to invite and value customer input. Logos has been one the best businesses that I have known to quickly respond to their customers.
Customers have the right to their opinion and the right to express it. They should do it without questioning the integrity and character of Bob and Logos. Words have been used in this thread like "gouging" and "ripoff." They have been compared to the moneychangers in the Temple.
People may disagree. But we need to learn to disagree agreeably.
I'm sure there are fans who disagree with what you and your athletes do. The problem is that they do not know everything that you know about the situation. We are in a generation that thinks we know more than those who are actually doing the work. We all want to be Monday morning quarterbacks.
Unlike most coaches (at least from their public statements), Bob does listen to his critics. Unlike many, Bob does not criticize his critics. He respectfully responds and just gives them the facts. He has always addressed and corrected any problem promptly.
I'm just asking for Logos users to consider the facts and treat Bob and Logos as they would like to be treated when they have a different opinion.
Edwin
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David Paul said:
If the publlishers he/she [sorry...but the initials leave me clueless] mentioned can't see the Logos marketplace as one of their best potential markets, they are blind.
Please do not insult my favorite publishers. Logos has not been one of their "best potential markets"; Logos is becoming a major potential market. with their expansion into LXX, Syriac, Coptic, Greek Patristics, lectionaries ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MarkSwaim said:
Why, therefore, would you want to pre order unless you want to make sure the resource makes it to publication? There is no incentive to pre ordering
It still appears that there must be sufficient interest to trigger the development of the resource. Therefor, I "bic (or commit to purchase)" items that are of importance to me. I'd call that incentive.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Matthew C Jones said:
I am interested to see how long it takes before the paper book industry gets around to publishing works that originate in digital format only.
This is happening on a small scale now as is print-on-demand. Note: print-on-demand has been the model for academic thesis for at least 40 years.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Edwin Bowden said:
People may disagree. But we need to learn to disagree agreeably.
Thank you for saying this. I am often astonished (and not pleasantly) by the tone of opposing posts.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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P. Keith Larson said:
Just to give an example of how ridiculous these prices are; one of the resources has a SRP of $17.99.
Logos eBook: $17.99
Amazon Paperback: $12.23
Kindle eBook: $9.99
I like having books in my Logos library, but NOT that much.
That is comparing apples and studebakers (as a friend of mine likes to say).
Do the other electronic formats provide the capabilities of Logos format titles?
I don't buy a Logos title to "read."
It is a part of my electronic Bible study library. I have access to the information that I need In seconds, even if I don't know I have it or where it is. Those benefits do not come without a cost to the publisher (Logos).
That is why I buy Logos.
I'm not interested in other electronic formats.
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Blair Laird said:Alain Maashe said:
Here it is clearly not a matter of
new resources that "are expected to be that price". it is also
obvious that not many here expect or are planning to buy new resources at full
MSRP but expect something similar to what is done with print resources that are
substantially discounted even before publication by most retailers.Why do you feel that you deserve a discount ? If you dont like the price (it is a free market) you can purchase it somewhere else at a cheaper rate. Neither Logos nor Baker owes me anything.I have seen a lot of people on this point with the (self entitlement attitude). I have paid for my books therefore I am owed the books I paid for. No one owes me anything beyond that. No one owes me a cheaper rate, but by me not purchasing their material they will get the point. I am with you. I believe digital resources should be cheaper seeing as there is a one time manufacturing fee (putting it in digital format). However no one owes me a discounted rate. As a business they have the right to charge whatever they want. They will not stay profitable if people refuse to pay their price.
Blair,
You are arguing against a point I did not make and concentrating on terms and concepts I did not use (owe, deserve, self entitlement).
Having expectations (the term I used) when it comes to a company or a product is not the same as having a "self entitlement attitude", or feeling that one is owe or deserves something.
Companies with their products seek to meet customers expectations (offer and demand), a proper understanding of the customers' expectations is essential to a successful business plan where the offer meets the demand.
I would be more helpful if you could work fromwhat people actually say instead of speculating about their motives
Alain
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Edwin, you and I see this differently, although I have not used the terms you have mentioned such as,"gouging","ripoff" and "moneychangers". I see the use of such terms as being good, not bad.
Bob is running a large company that he desires to grow, into a bigger and better comany, he has sought feed back, and if he is half as smart as I think he is, he understands that he could spend a fortune trying to find out the information he is finding out for free on these forums.
If I was in his position and my customers were thinking or feeling like my company was gouging, trying to rip people off and were moneychangers I would want to know that. I would rather know the truth about how they were feeling than to have everyone be "nice" and not tell me the truth about how they feel.
Of course I see this as one of the problems I see in many churches, we want everyone to be nice, even when the feel other wise. Many people catch on and play the game, and because of that they are never helped. I believe that Logos is far better off to know how people are really feeling than to be left in the dark.
I want to make one thing clear to Bob, I support Logos, and I have been moved many times to praise God not only for all the improvements I have seen in your software, but even more for your attitude towards those that have said negative things about some of the things you have done. Your attitude shows me alot about your walk with God and how He is working in your life. And for that I find myself constantly giving thanks to Him!
By the way Edwin, I deal with a lot of people teaching them how to use electronic bible programs, one of the often heard complains against Logos is that the company is charging to much for their products, I am constantly hearing this charge, so the complaints I have seen in this tread are minor in this area of cost compared with what I hear in the free market.
Of course, the main reasons they feel this way is that many of their products are spendy, and many never hear of the great deals(recent upgrade packages), and most people have no idea, how this system can change the way we study and learn. If they did they would be more accepting of the price, but the truth is they are on the edge of pricing people like me out of the market, even knowing what I know, I am getting on the edge of not being able to afford it !!! There are also so great christian schools out there and they charge large amounts of money to attend them, they are worth the money and maybe even more, but I know of a lot of pastors that can not attend them because they just don't have that kind of money. Logos is on the edge of going over the line, and servicing only a small group of people with money. Bob needs to hear these complaint that are being made, what he does is up to him.
Edwin, I am afraid we will just disagree on this.
In Christ,
Jim
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Alain Maashe said:
Blair,
You are arguing against a point I did not make and concentrating on terms and concepts I did not use (owe, deserve, self entitlement).
I apologize for the misunderstanding.
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JimVanSchoonhoven said:
Edwin, you and I see this differently, although I have not used the terms you have mentioned such as,"gouging","ripoff" and "moneychangers". I see the use of such terms as being good, not bad.
Bob is running a large company that he desires to grow, into a bigger and better comany, he has sought feed back, and if he is half as smart as I think he is, he understands that he could spend a fortune trying to find out the information he is finding out for free on these forums.
If I was in his position and my customers were thinking or feeling like my company was gouging, trying to rip people off and were moneychangers I would want to know that. I would rather know the truth about how they were feeling than to have everyone be "nice" and not tell me the truth about how they feel.
Of course I see this as one of the problems I see in many churches, we want everyone to be nice, even when the feel other wise. Many people catch on and play the game, and because of that they are never helped. I believe that Logos is far better off to know how people are really feeling than to be left in the dark.
I want to make one thing clear to Bob, I support Logos, and I have been moved many times to praise God not only for all the improvements I have seen in your software, but even more for your attitude towards those that have said negative things about some of the things you have done. Your attitude shows me alot about your walk with God and how He is working in your life. And for that I find myself constantly giving thanks to Him!
By the way Edwin, I deal with a lot of people teaching them how to use electronic bible programs, one of the often heard complains against Logos is that the company is charging to much for their products, I am constantly hearing this charge, so the complaints I have seen in this tread are minor in this area of cost compared with what I hear in the free market.
Of course, the main reasons they feel this way is that many of their products are spendy, and many never hear of the great deals(recent upgrade packages), and most people have no idea, how this system can change the way we study and learn. If they did they would be more accepting of the price, but the truth is they are on the edge of pricing people like me out of the market, even knowing what I know, I am getting on the edge of not being able to afford it !!! There are also so great christian schools out there and they charge large amounts of money to attend them, they are worth the money and maybe even more, but I know of a lot of pastors that can not attend them because they just don't have that kind of money. Logos is on the edge of going over the line, and servicing only a small group of people with money. Bob needs to hear these complaint that are being made, what he does is up to him.
Edwin, I am afraid we will just disagree on this.
In Christ,
Jim
Jim,
Although we may disagree on some issues, I appreciate your civil responses.
One of my frustrations in over 60 years of church life and over 20 years in Christian publishing is the prevalent attitude among Christians that if something is "Christian" it should be free or very cheap. Most who have that opinion have never dealt with the realities of business finances. Everything costs someone something.
It is also hard to compare pricing on other secular things to those which are specifically "Christian." There is not the volume savings that secular items enjoy.
Publishing in general, and Chrisian publishing and retailing in particular have been hard hit in recent years (even before the overall economic downturn). It is obvious that Logos has been successful while others have floundered. Bob has been wise in his business decisions. He has actually so spoiled us with the bargains that he offers, that we assume that everything from Logos will be a bargain.
None of us know the details that brought the newest Baker and Zondervan titles to Logos. Bob may not have liked the pricing himself, but his customers (us) were asking him for these titles. He provided the product we said we wanted. I believe that Bob got the best deal available to Logos.
It seems that the other option would to wait longer for those Baker titles to become available. Zondervan could have continued to be independent and publish their own titles exclusively. We may not like the pricing, but at least we will have the opportunity to purchae titles not previously available to Logos users.
It is a quickly changing world out there. Logos has shown that they are trying to respond in a timely fashion.
Edwin
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David Lowther said:
I am willing to assume that Zondervan and Baker Books are going to be involved in electronic publishing in one form or another and that if Logos is not a competitive option, they will eventually use some other format/delivery mechanism; maybe less powerful, but more affordable.
Maybe you are unaware that Zondervan already does deliver digital content outside of Logos. (& I'm not taliking about Pradis.) There is absolutely no loyalty/faithfulness by Zondervan in this Zondervan/Logos marriage. Z has been cheating with the others for a long time. The only difference is Zondervan wants a higher price from the Logos user than they charge with the others. If they expect loyalty & total sacrifice from Logos maybe they should be exclusive to the Logos delivery system.
David Lowther said:. I am pleased with Logos 3, learning and excited about Logos 4 (love being able to get to my books with my iPhone), and I am looking forward to the future of electronic publishing and the power of digital books (though I am lover of bound books and the printed page). These forums are very useful, have great contributors, and it is great to see Bob and the Logos staff involved with the thoughts and opinions of their customers/users
I agree Bob & Logos have done many things well. That is precisely why I do NOT think the Zondervan/Baker pricing idea was his. It is out of character.,
EDIT: General Motors used a similar pricing scheme by limiting the number of Corvettes they would produce each year. The 'Vettes soon became just a rich person's auto. GM did not care because the few over-priced sales made for their required profit margin. They even paid a lower hourly rate to the assemblers at the Bowling Green, KY plant for the "privelage" of building the nice sports car. So if publishers want to triple their costs and can find just a third of the pastors have the funds to buy, it still may work. The two-thirds of us who can't buy just won't have it. I guess I could sell my collection of Fabrege eggs to buy more software.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
Maybe you are unaware that Zondervan already does deliver digital content outside of Logos. (& I'm not taliking about Pradis.) There is absolutely no loyalty/faithfulness by Zondervan in this Zondervan/Logos marriage. Z has been cheating with the others for a long time.
????
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Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Edwin, my main concerns are that I believe Bob has asked for opinions to help him stay on top of things, I think he really wants to know the good, the bad and the ugly.
Yet we as believers might try to keep him from hearing the things he desires to hear, the things that will help him the most. The ugly!
Like I said before, I believe Bob is very smart as well as being an example of walking by faith.
I believe these boards are giving him the kind of feed back that sometimes even money can;t buy. And you are right I doubt any of us understands the things he goes through and how hard his choices are to make, but the more accurate his feedback is the better chance he will have to make the right choice.
Thanks for your kind conversation I will bow out now.
In Christ,
Jim
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