Let's all chip in!!

I think we should all pitch in an send a case of Reality Pills to the good folks at Brill. EVERYTHING they publish is about 5 times more than absurdly priced. This new PrePub, Dictionary of NW Semitic Inscripttions, is 2 vols. and they want $500 (!!!!) for it. Ridiculous. I might buy it at $100, but it would be a stretch. They do this with pretty much everything they sell. I really wish authors would stay away from them.

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Ben

Agreed. There's no way I can pay $500 for this, or $1100 for the Encyclopedia of Hebrew Language and Linguistics. Even if I had the money, I'd roll my eyes.

I am actually one of the users who would use it regularly (grad work in Semitics)

Matthew C Jones

I might buy it at $100, but it would be a stretch.

Same for me.

But $499.99 ?? NO !!

Sarel Slabbert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/754162#Comment_754162

I agree. I do not understand how they justify their prices.

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/754164#Comment_754164

In former days, publishers like them only sold to libraries not final end users. The price reflects that there are no economies of scale in the print batch (sell 1000 pieces over ten years or 50000 just off the press is a difference ) and the potential multiplication of users as well as different budgets of the buyers. Maybe someone can tell them things are different here. On the other hand, how to convince the librarian with the ever-shrinking budget to shell out 500 for a printed book that goes for 50 here? Difficult.

Floyd Johnson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/754172#Comment_754172

I had the same reaction to a book by an author I know on a topic which interested me:

The Role of Richard Watson’s Theological Institutes in the Development of Methodism After John Wesley by Barry Hamilton

More details can be found here: http://amzn.to/1gbYx5Q

My first thought was that I would like to read this. My second was maybe recommend it for LOGOS or Vyrso. My third thought (after seeing the price) was, "NO WAY!!!"

Kevin A Lewis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/754175#Comment_754175

Whilst I totally understand the OPs comments. I do think we need to grasp the publishing realities presented by these types of title.

It is actually demonstrated by this particular example Dictionary of NW Semitic Inscripttions.

At any price how many takers are there likely to be for this - even free!

Also do consider that the print, binding and distribution cost, which are real; are only a portion of the total costs. These certainly affect the per volume hardcopy. But what about the author's time to research, write, reference etc. Then the layout, editing, proof reading and so on.

Basically nothing work having is free - or anything like it. And whilst I agree these prices are steep - and might attract more "punters" if they were more reasonably priced - I truly wonder how many would want these titles in the first place.

Certainly I would - but that's not my point.

Shalom

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/754195#Comment_754195

I would take them should they be free.

If Logos made one volume the book of the month, and shocked brill with their distribution figures they might get the idea about their prices.

Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/754195#Comment_754195

what about the author's time to research, write, reference etc. Then the layout, editing, proof reading and so on.

The problem is that there are so many demands now that unless compensation makes it worthwhile, it can be a deterrent to even undertake certain projects. There have been mind-boggling projects before. One thinks about the systematic theologies or lexical resources that were written in the old days. For their authors, these were the works of a lifetime. The culture of publication has sufficiently changed that even such a significant work gets loss is a sea of other works being published all over the place.

But for all these difficulties, there needs to be a realistic limit of some sort. The price cannot be upped indefinitely.

There is however another side to this: we have come to think that we ought to be able to afford owning a bunch of such specialized resources because we have gotten our hands on a number already. If you were a professor in the seventies, you would not assume so. The point is that we think everything should be affordable.

I sympathize, but as much as we want publishers to be realistic, so we too must be.

TCBlack

It is indeed frustrating. This is not the first Brill title I'll pass up. Even though I find the price absurd, I'm reasonably certain that they have at least one person on staff who knows her stuff regarding supply, demand, and recompense. The fact that they keep publishing... Even existing is proof enough of this.

Kevin A Lewis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/754241#Comment_754241

.... but as much as we want publishers to be realistic, so we too must be.

Exactly - in the old days we'd all use a good library and expect our "good library" to get at least one of each.

As much as this "own everything model" in the digital age has some good aspects - we all should know what they are! - there are some unintended consequences too. These might even include to lose of access to such materials or even lose of the production of these works altogether.

Shalom

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/754244#Comment_754244

Ugh!! And this actually is in production! Blows my mind...

https://www.logos.com/product/53612/septuagint-commentary-series

To me, this is just feeding the monster.

Greg F

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/754257#Comment_754257

Brill is notorious in academic circles for their high prices. People sign petitions about how much some of their journals cost.

But they've got great resources, and scholars are willing to pay those kinds of prices. No point in getting upset about it, it's just academic publishing..

Lew Worthington

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/754258#Comment_754258

Brill is notorious in academic circles for their high prices. People sign petitions about how much some of their journals cost.

But they've got great resources, and scholars are willing to pay those kinds of prices. No point in getting upset about it, it's just academic publishing..

Right. It looks like they know what they're doing and their business model seems to work. They've been around for a while.

Lonnie Spencer

I have found that all academic books are high priced and especially ones used as textbooks. These books were probably geared towards being part of a research university library holdings where affordability is not an issue because one copy will serve all who will check it out to read it. If you are interested in Brill's books and don't have the resources of a university library to spend on owning your own personal copies of academic books, then why not go to the university library and check it out.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/754268#Comment_754268

I tend to look at it the other way around. If Brill isn't interested in selling to me, I won't quote from them. Period. Besides, I just watched a documentary on big pharma and how they keep artificially high prices on drugs that millions need to live...I'm not feeling too charitable toward that mindset. Brill who?

And libraries? What are those? You mean the thing on my hard drive?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/754354#Comment_754354

The big pharma have very little to do with the history of German academic publishing which is historically a charitable activity for prestige not a money making affair. I suggest you learn something about the latter especially how they have published specialized materials that otherwise would not be available... e.g. the primary Old Turkic dictionary. If your measure of scholarship worth quoting is your ability to afford the resource ...

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/754420#Comment_754420

Twenty years ago, I wouldn't disagree with you, MJ. Times, though, haven't stopped changing, and that is especially true of the publishing world, just as happened with music. Brill is frozen in time, and there is no good reason for them to continue charging nose-bleed prices in this day and age. The most frustrating part is that they have been part of Logos for years and clearly have a sense of what the changes have wrought in publishing, but they CONTINUE to operate as if they aren't benefitting from hundreds if not thousands of new customers interested in their products besides the age-old stand-bys of libraries and seminaries. They haven't changed a thing, and in today's publishing economy, that looks like gouging to me. With a buyership pool that has probably doubled in the last two decades, their intransigence is simply out of line, to put it very mildly.

Also, I'm pretty sure Brill is Dutch.

mab

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/754864#Comment_754864

Given that these are electronic editions and Logos is doing the heavy lifting to get them into place, I would think that Brill would be more considerate of being able to expand their market at what would be a reasonable amount.

Maybe Faithlife could find a way to prime the pump on large price items by getting them into a payment plan starting in pre-pub. Still might be too much for some people, but with actual dollars coming in, it might make more sense.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/754864#Comment_754864

With a buyership pool that has probably doubled in the last two decades, their intransigence is simply out of line, to put it very mildly.

Are you taking into account projects such as 84000 or Buddhism: the eBook as where the "obscure academic publishing" is moving? It leaves Brill with less market.

Sorry but in my field, I tended to know which libraries in the US had what materials ... and who to call to get copies as the librarians rarely could decipher the script sufficiently to find the required pages. I am thrilled those days are gone in favor of online access ... but at a cost. But it does make it so I am less, not more, likely to purchase expensive, non-essential books - decreasing nor increasing my reliance on publishers such as Brill.

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/754872#Comment_754872

Given that these are electronic editions and Logos is doing the heavy lifting to get them into place, I would think that Brill would be more considerate of being able to expand their market at what would be a reasonable amount.

Agreed.

Floyd Johnson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/754916#Comment_754916

Last month we had this discussion. I stumbled upon this news article this afternoon which seems to speak to the problems being addressed by LOGOS users:

http://news360.com/article/310511316/#

Mark Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761427#Comment_761427

http://news360.com/article/310511316/#

Pretty interesting but only a bit surprising. Sounds like an interesting way to work for nothing and yet help make a publisher turn a profit on taxpayer purchases.

I am pretty sure he (my apologies) he or she wasn't contacted by Brill, however, so it probably is a misleading diversion from the specific case and topic David brought up.

Floyd Johnson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761427#Comment_761427

Last month we had this discussion. I stumbled upon this news article this afternoon which seems to speak to the problems being addressed by LOGOS users:

http://news360.com/article/310511316/#

And now there is evidence that the above article was a fake (ala The Onion):

http://bit.ly/1iprGvM

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761483#Comment_761483

Even if it was satire, it was biting satire of the "only one or two clicks in the absurd direction" variety. Honestly, I'm not even sure it was that far off the beaten path. And compared to the reality of what Brill charges, this seems almost like a puff piece. It's pretty clear that there are people out there who will pay nosebleed prices. I think it has a lot to do with vanity...the idea that "most sane people would never pay such an exorbitant price for this book (or series), so I will be one of the few to actually own it!" Have at it. As far as I'm concerned, I've simply added Brill to my Zondervan boycott list. I would like to own titles from both, but I'm only going to do it if they become sane in their pricing. The deep pockets can have at 'em.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/763117#Comment_763117

I think it has a lot to do with vanity...the idea that "most sane people would never pay such an exorbitant price for this book (or series), so I will be one of the few to actually own it!"

This seems more like slander than experience. I'd suggest you talk to some of the scholars who actually need one of these volume rather than just library access.

Steve Maling

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/763460#Comment_763460

Inspired by M.J. reality checks I'll toss this in from a codger's perspective. I already have more Logos titles than I could have imagined. As suggested by the Pareto Rule, I'm finding out which resources are in the 20% I actually turn to again and again in my now much reduced ministry of study and teaching in congregations. One factor is my limited linguistic competence (decent Greek; improving Hebrew). A weightier factor is time to use the truly good stuff with which I've been blessed. Just because, "They [the marvels of electronic publishing] built it," doesn't absolve me of the stewardship responsibility of deciding, do I really want to "come" into the stadium, uh, all the halls of the universal virtual library.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/763460#Comment_763460

This seems more like slander than experience. I'd suggest you talk to some of the scholars who actually need one of these volume rather than just library access

I'm not sure why some scholar's "need" is greater than my desire to access and utilize the information in this and other Brill resources. I'm sure by "need" you mean said scholar gets a paycheck for rolling an obligatory quote and comment into his most recent publication. But I don't see said scholar's need to be any greater than my own. I'm certainly not convinced this faceless scholar will make better use of the information than I would. Regardless, the old insular "brick-and-mortar" type system that has evolved among institutions and their inmates employees and their publishing masters partners has guaranteed that whatever information may have been gleaned and published reaches the smallest possible population. That is so insular it's almost inbred.

I don't need to be lectured on "how and why it became what it is", especially since that trope sounds a whole lot like Donald Trump explaining his devolutionary desire to prop up the coal industry. Times change, occasionally for the good, and it's time for Brill to join the here and now.

Patrick S.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/900723#Comment_900723

This seems more like slander than experience. I'd suggest you talk to some of the scholars who actually need one of these volume rather than just library access

I'm not sure why some scholar's "need" is greater than my desire to access and utilize the information in this and other Brill resources.

I agree, I would love to get "The Context of Scripture" https://www.logos.com/product/2210/the-context-of-scripture for the wealth of information on the OT world to enhance my understanding of the background the OT writers were writing in — but at $300 for three volumes just can't justify it. So Brill loses a sale. Now if one person buys at $300 they get $300, if 10 or let's say even 20, buy at $100 they've got $1,000 or $2,000.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/900844#Comment_900844

I agree, I would love to get "The Context of Scripture" https://www.logos.com/product/2210/the-context-of-scripture for the wealth of information on the OT world to enhance my understanding of the background the OT writers were writing in — but at $300 for three volumes just can't justify it.

Noticed "The Context of Scripture" https://www.logos.com/product/2210/the-context-of-scripture is included in => Cultural Concepts Collection (20 volumes) and => Ancient Literature Collection (25 volumes) that have lower price per volume albeit collection costs a bit more overall (less than $ 490).

Keep Smiling [:)]

EastTN

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/900860#Comment_900860

Logos would seem to be a great opportunity for a thoughtful publisher to do some research on their customers' demand curve. One could imagine them offering similar specialist materials at very different price points to see where they maximized their profits. The sentiment that's been expressed in this thread (which I believe is probably correct) is that if they offered significantly lower prices they would also see significantly more purchasers. That's something that, at least in principle, could be empirically verified or refuted.

mab

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/900860#Comment_900860

I have Context of Scripture. It's in the Ancient Literature Collection which I'm guessing is how it got in my library. By itself, I couldn't justify $300 either.

I thought the only volume of Brill I had was a hardcover I picked up ages ago secondhand. My wife recently got a library loan of a Brill book. It would have been $170 to buy. Ouch!