Sell me Logos 7 today!

Dear Faithlife,

A number of us have expressed concerns on the forum because as long time customers with larger libraries Logos Now and Logos cloud don't really fit our need.

Basically because:

A) We like to own the product, we don't like rental.

We will continue to choose and buy lots of books that are not in the cloud set.

C) We don't want to pay to rent stuff we already own.

This leaves us feeling a little bit excluded from the exciting new features etc.

My big solution:

Sell me Logos 7 today - let me have the books/features as they become available just like with Logos Cloud/Now. Use the same approach as with the Journal Library. Please consider this - it's an excellent idea! If base packages make that too complex then sell me the minimal crossgrade now but give me the option to bump that up to a base package for a couple of weeks after release day.

Cheers,

John

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Comments

C M

John G,

Let me add my voice to those who own a large amount of books. They should not be forced to rent anything. Rent is for those who can't afford to buy or don't care to have ownership, (like a house -vs- an apartment). Rent-to-own (modified installment plan), this makes more sense. FL can't sell what it doesn't own. If FL owns the Journal Library, the question is, are they willing to sell it, when, and at what cost?

Please, Faith Life, where there are customers who love to own, let them buy it out right or do it on a rent-to-own (installment) bases under a contractual agreement, giving them full access. Failure to honor the agreement, one would lose all of the books they owned before the agreement. Besides, FL, no one with many books will run the risk of losing their library. A little flexibility can prove to be a win win for all parties.

MJ. Smith

John - depending upon the precise details of the credit Logos Now users get towards Logos 7, it sounds to me like you are proposing Logos Now less a few perks. Logos Now is intended for people who purchase their resources rather than renting them, has no relationship to the cloud set of Logos Cloud, and as you are renting nothing that is possible to own.

Jim

[Y]

Mark Smith

let me have the books/features as they become available just like with Logos Cloud/Now.

John, I am trying to understand.

You refer to 'books...as they become available.' What books are these? Logos Cloud is not a pre-release of content of a future base package. It is aimed at those who prefer to rent rather than own, and neither you nor I are the customers Logos has in mind for Cloud. There aren't any 'books...as they become available' for Logos to send you. Whatever the contents of future base packages turn out to be I am sure Faithlife has not configured them yet so can't send you them as they become available. Please explain.

The 'features as they become available' are what Logos Now is about. Are you asking to pay for a crossgrade ahead of time instead of a monthly fee?

Mark Smith

Please, Faith Life, where there are customers who love to own, let them buy it out right or do it on a rent-to-own (installment) bases under a contractual agreement, giving them full access.

Charles, you say 'let them buy it out right.' What is the 'it' you want to buy but cannot?

It seems to me Logos has something better than (or at least as good as) rent-to-own. They have 'make monthly payments to pay off what you have full use of'. You can pay for whatever you want over a period of months (currently up to 24). In the meantime you can enjoy them from the day you make the initial commitment to pay over time. Would this not get you what you want?

George Somsel

Sell me Logos 7 today - let me have the books/features as they become available just like with Logos Cloud/Now. Use the same approach as with the Journal Library. Please consider this - it's an excellent idea! If base packages make that too complex then sell me the minimal crossgrade now but give me the option to bump that up to a base package for a couple of weeks after release day.

I'm reminded of the line in the movie "Field of Dreams": If you build it, they will come." The thing is, they first have to build it. They can't sell you a product they haven't yet fully developed. PATIENCE.

John Goodman

Sorry for confusion. I'm not really expecting books particularly to be part of the deal except in some specific cases where features depend on them. The same books which would be part of a minimal crossgrade. Mostly I mean data sets.

This is really not at all complicated. It is just Logos Now with ownership and a higher price. Same way Microsoft sells a subscription to upgrades. When your subscription expires you are left with what you have on the last day of the subscription (possibly omitting the cloud website). By contrast with Logos Now you loose everything.

There are really 2 problems with Logos Now and Logos cloud for users like me and we've all discussed these before.

A) Lack of dynamic pricing for cloud means we are renting stuff we already own.

Logos Now is not ownership but it is marketed for people who clearly prefer ownership.

My proposal helps to resolve both of these especially if it also includes a base package and not just the minimal crossgrade.

Sell me Logos 7 today! Same options as usual - full upfront cost or a payment plan. Simple and elegant solution.

Make Logos cloud pricing dynamic.

Francis

As much as I would like to have access to new functionality sooner than later, there are elements of the get-as-they-become-available formula you propose that give me pause: Logos Now, because of its design, can provide partially constructed functionalities and datasets. Would you want to pay for incomplete features? Should the feature be sold as "Propositional Outlines - New Testament" (since OT outlines became available later)? And what if the feature is improved later, like Psalms Explorer: should it be considered an update or would we have to pay for an upgrade? I would also be concerned that selling individual features separately would result in much higher cost in the end.

As for buying the next upgrade in advance, say pay two years' worth of Logos Now and pre-own Logos 7 instead permanently (as opposed to lost functionalities if you stop Logos Now), I find the idea a bit attractive, but wonder there also whether the ownership mentality is compatible with buying a product before you know what it will really be like. Logos Now is much like that, in the sense that subscribers cannot fully know what it will look like next year (though this should not be exaggerated). However, subscription gives a greater feeling of being free to bail out if you don't like where the product is going. Now, if you purchase Logos 7 in advance and FL comes up with a new design you find awful in a year from now, you could not expect -- having enjoyed access for one year -- to be refunded.

Just some thoughts... perhaps you have ideas as to how this could work.

Fr Devin Roza

This is a good idea.

One simple way this could be implemented is for Now subscribers to receive a coupon to purchase a v7 base package / feature crossgrade with a discount based on the number of months they were subscribed to Now. For example, a discount of $5 - $7 / month of subscription.

In that way one could purchase a feature crossgrade of v7 for almost free if you have been subscribed to Now for 2 years.

Fred Chapman

A) Lack of dynamic pricing for cloud means we are renting stuff we already own.

As has been stated many times, the target market for Logos Cloud is not those who already own.

Logos Now is not ownership but it is marketed for people who clearly prefer ownership.

That is correct. Now is a way for owners to have some additional tools and functionality. Logos has stated that they have not decided what tools and functionality will be made available for sale in Logos 7 (and presumably other future releases) and which ones will remain exclusive to Now. I would like to see (and think we will see) some form of discount or credit offered to Now subscribers when the tools and features are offered for purchase. How that will look remains to be seen, as does what products will be offered.

C M

No, another matter. Send private email if interested.

C M

Just let me know when it's built!

Bob Pritchett

John,

We don't have specific plans for Logos 7 to announce at this point. We are listening to feedback and reading the forums.

Logos Now certainly has some things that could be part of Logos 7 -- specific new content, etc. But much of the value of Logos Now is in server-hosted content: online media, temporary access to certain resources, etc. There isn't a good way to deliver that content permanently, and we're trying to avoid a situation where we commit to permanent server-based hosting and delivery (which does cost money to maintain) for one-time purchases.

I absolutely hear and understand that many people prefer ownership to renting; I do too, for many products. But over time we'll need our revenue to match expenses (at least within some close approximation!), and as our expense model moves to 'perpetual costs for hosting / maintenance / support' we'll need a revenue model that is structured similarly.

We've all previously acted as if there's a purely transactional relationship: we build Product X, you pay onetime for Product X and own it.

But our cost to build Product X is starting to have a long tail -- you expect Product X to get bug fixes, updates when new operating systems are released, support for new mobile platforms, etc. That's more an on-going relationship than a transaction, and ultimately, one way or another, we'll need revenue to cover that.

None of this is a change from the previous explanations and plans. I'm just re-stating what's been said many times before.

For the foreseeable future we will continue to support the existing model while also strongly encouraging our users to see the benefits (for both of us!) of a hybrid model, where in addition to buying and owning specific resources, you subscribe to Logos Now (for a very reasonable cost!) in order to fund ongoing support, online content, online services, feature development, and incremental improvements.

-- Bob

Mark Johnson

Bob,

I wish you would have written it this way when Logos Now was unveiled. This resonates with me a lot better than the previous ways that Logos Now has been presented.

C M

Bob,

Am I to understand that the subscribers to Logos Now and/or Cloud are field testing portions of L7 for a fee and later are still expected to buy it when it is rolled out (whenever that is)?
Will the field testers (subscribers) receive credit when they buy Logos 7?
When it comes to building "Product X", who drives the train? Faithlife Executives? the customers? or the demands from an unknown source?
What happened to old saying, "He that supplies the loot control the route?" A time window of when L7 will be rolled may prove to be helpful many.

Jim Erwin

It sounds like to me that the Logos Now subscription (and perhaps even the Logos Cloud subscription) is paying for webhosting space to hold the data. This is probably an added cost that will be ongoing. You can't really charge for that when you buy a stand-alone product. So a subscription was eventually going to have to occur. This is about the price I pay for webhosting for my website.

John Goodman

Bob,

Thanks so much for your response. One of the reasons I'm a happy customer is because you listen. I've no expectation that you ought to agree to my request but I very much appreciate that you listen. Thanks.

I do understand your comments about the ongoing costs of development and web hosting etc. It is perhaps food for thought.

The one issue you didn't address and I hope you will think about is dynamic pricing for the cloud rental package. I really don't like the idea that I could join that and pay the same as someone else when I already own 60-80% of what is in the package.

John

SineNomine

The one issue you didn't address and I hope you will think about is dynamic pricing for the cloud rental package. I really don't like the idea that I could join that and pay the same as someone else when I already own 60-80% of what is in the package.

As FL has explicitly indicated many, many, many times, customers like you are not part of the target audience for Logos Cloud.

Mark Smith

As FL has explicitly indicated many, many, many times, customers like you are not part of the target audience for Logos Cloud.

Agreed. I guess John thinks there might be an interest for people like him (and most of us) if dynamic pricing was available. I imagine it could be done if FL wanted to do it. It could produce a revenue stream for FL from that group they didn't have in mind.

John Goodman

The one issue you didn't address and I hope you will think about is dynamic pricing for the cloud rental package. I really don't like the idea that I could join that and pay the same as someone else when I already own 60-80% of what is in the package.

As FL has explicitly indicated many, many, many times, customers like you are not part of the target audience for Logos Cloud.

Yes, we are continuing a conversation which began when Logos Cloud and Logos Now were introduced. At the time I expressed my enthusiasm for the scheme because it makes Logos accessible to a new market.

I'm trying to move the conversation on though. I really enjoy using Logos software and I use it every day. I'm keen for them to find a way of including users like me in the new developments. Users like me can do basic math and understand the value of renting, in some cases it may make sense for us to rent additional content. It does not make sense to rent already owned content. It is entirely reasonable for us to request dynamic pricing. Logos have hinted in other posts that dynamic pricing of cloud or some such scheme aimed at users like me is a possibility.

I have respectfully made the case for 2 things:

1) To sell the new features for a fair price (Sell me Logos 7 today) - To which Bob has answered that it is not possible to fairly price those things except as a subscription. This I will ponder - at the moment I don't think Logos Now adds enough to capture my interest. I'm sure it will by the time Logos 7 comes out which is why I was pushing for pre-sale as the solution.

2) To offer me dynamic pricing, a subscription which is compelling. Logos Now, has a few fancy features - I get it. But what I am most interested in is more books and the latest books. Can faithlife offer me a subscription service which I do want? I'm willing to bet they can and will eventually.

Bob has always seemed very approachable, thoughtful, and kind enough to respond to such questions and I am very grateful for this. I think the software and the user experience is so much the better because we are able to have these conversations.

Bob Pritchett

Am I to understand that the subscribers to Logos Now and/or Cloud are field testing portions of L7 for a fee and later are still expected to buy it when it is rolled out (whenever that is)?

Nope. If you like the Logos Now model, I expect you will just continue to subscribe to it, and likely not ever need to make another 'upgrade' purchase.

Will the field testers (subscribers) receive credit when they buy Logos 7?

It's impossible to predict the future, and I don't know what we will do in every scenario. But I can tell you that the existing dynamic pricing is complicated, confusing, and difficult to administer, and it's an apples to apples comparison. Subscription products change in configuration, people own them for varying lengths of time and thus have differing levels of investment, etc. We very much want to avoid any type of credit assignment between subscription and purchased products, because it'll be impossible to be clear, let alone fair, to all the users with the incredible permutations of things owned, length of subscription, price of subscription, etc. And it'll be truly impossible to explain/justify/document for the rights holders involved.

Logos Now is the 'dynamic price' for Logos Cloud. The reason we have Logos Now is to avoid the situation John is concerned about: you own 80% of what's in a Cloud subscription, and don't want to pay twice. Great -- that's why we offer Logos Now. It's the 'dynamic price' version of Logos Cloud that doesn't make you re-purchase anything in Cloud.

Yes, there may be a Cloud configuration that's a great deal, and has some things you don't have, but lots you already do. But it's impossible to figure a fair way to allocate your years of full-purchase prices against the value of a portion of a may-change-every-month subscription bundle, and to accurately calculate royalties, etc.

When it comes to building "Product X", who drives the train? Faithlife Executives? the customers? or the demands from an unknown source?

I'm not sure what you mean. How do we decide what product to build? It's a mix of what you ask for and what we want to make and what experience tells us we can sell. (I think that's the same answer for most businesses.)

What happened to old saying, "He that supplies the loot control the route?" A time window of when L7 will be rolled may prove to be helpful many.

I think that expression got pushed into obscurity by the more popular 'He who controls the gold makes the rules', because of the disagreement over root / rowt pronunciation, which risks defanging your version by killing the rhyme. :-)

There is no L7 timeline yet. But it's a good guess that we won't go longer than 2 years (the time between 5 and 6) and also a good guess we won't go less than one year (because that's pretty fast and stuff takes time).

C M

Bob,

Thanks. I am sure FL Corp will do its best moving forward.

Fr Devin Roza

Am I to understand that the subscribers to Logos Now and/or Cloud are field testing portions of L7 for a fee and later are still expected to buy it when it is rolled out (whenever that is)?

Nope. If you like the Logos Now model, I expect you will just continue to subscribe to it, and likely not ever need to make another 'upgrade' purchase.

I'm not sure I understand how Now users wouldn't pay twice. Here's my understanding, please correct me if I'm wrong.

A user who purchases a future v7 base package will be purchasing, in part, features and datasets produced by Faithlife that are new to v7. Most if not all of those v7 features and datasets are being released little by little in Now, and users are paying to access them "Now".

Many Now users will probably want to purchase a v7 base package, not because they need those new features and datasets (they already have them through Now), but because they want the books in the base packages. But they will also be paying for the features and datasets they have been funding with Now, and thus will pay twice for them, once through Now and once through the base package they get.

It can be argued that its okay for Now users to pay twice for these features and datasets, as they are getting "early access," which is certainly worth something. But it would seem to me they would still be paying twice if no discount is given based on monthly subscription to Now (again, something I'm simply suggesting, and realize that there are arguments against as well - what I'm really protesting in this message is the suggestion that Now users don't pay twice if no discount is given).

Jim

I looked at the Logos Now advert again and came away with the same confusion I had the first time I viewed it. There isn't enough information to actually give me a clear idea of what it will do for me and how I use it and how it fits into Logos' product strategy. My first impression was and remains that It sounds like an experiment to see if future products and resources will be leased rather than purchased. Bob said they don't want to do that, but the whole thing is so unclear to me I'm nervous about my continued commitment to Logos as my primary theological library. This thread at the least indicates I'm not the only one who is unclear and has added to my uncertainty about what direction Logos is taking.

Matt Hamrick

It never ceases to amaze me how there is so much confusion surrounding Logos Now when you can test drive it for free for 30 days.

John Goodman

It's not just about what Logos now is... It's about the ongoing value of a library we've invested a lot of money. Its also about a change in the way we think about and interact and pay for that library. It's about trust. I'm semi satisfied by Bob's answers so I'm renting for now but regretfully.

C M

I'm semi satisfied by Bob's answers so I'm renting for now but regretfully.

Is this the outcome of Bob's cleverness or the addictiveness of the Logos product?

John Goodman

I'm semi satisfied by Bob's answers so I'm renting for now but regretfully.

Is this the outcome of Bob's cleverness or the addictiveness of the Logos product?

No it's pragmatic reasoning based on having the sermon collection and the discourse analysis already on my wish list. Since they bundled permanent ownership of books I wanted with the now subscription I thought I'd give it a go. My observation so far is that the most helpful feature is the systematic theologies section of the passage guide. Unfortunately it's still not as good as the cited by tool at identifying content because my collections are more up to date than the tagging. The extra data sets are IMHO not that essential but perhaps make searching easier. As I said previously the website is not yet a great improvement over the offerings they had. So far I don't think Logos now is very good.