Logos 4 Philosophy
Comments
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I have to agree with Phil,
Knowing that certain things are coming; I'm ok with using 4.0.
Do I LOVE my PBBs?
Sure, but they are also available online and searchable generally.
Do I LOVE marking up my text?
Yes! But if that was coming soon, I wouldn't let that be a show stopper.
Do I LOVE my syntax search tools??
YES!! and I'm completely lost on V4's syntax tools....but that will change soon...there's always a learning curve.
For me the speed of searching will make the wait a worthwhile trade off.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Mark A. Smith said:Philip Spitzer said:
If you are saying we have two options, 1)
wait another year or two for you to have 100% of the old features in
place or 2) have the option of a less featured 4.0 now knowing that more goods will follow.... then I gladly take 2.Phil,
What exactly is so compelling to you about 4.0 that you'd take a less feature-filled version of that over 3.0? I ask because right now my inclination would be to wait for the full feature set to come out and continue to use 3.0 until then. In other words, just the opposite of your choice. Perhaps I am missing a good bit here.
My point was not that I would take the option, even though I probably would, but I am saying I'd rather have the option.
Why would I switch? Synchronization, better window layout-ESPECIALLY dual monitor support, reading mode, collection management, more robust library filtering, clippings, image search, library search speed, customizable guides, handouts are nice to have...but I'll have to see what later betas look like to see if their useful to me, reading lists look promising, notes everywhere with better formatting options, simpler hyperlink formats, command bar (I continue to find it more and more useful), tags and favs, search returns topics, reading list, library results, and user content all at one time, simpler morphology selection, biblical things shows promise, I like the way biblical people are displayed now, not crazy about the maps...needs to highlight the found location on the map, layouts are a giant leap forward from workspaces, can't speak to syntax searching--I'm not advanced enough to try that one, reading plan can do books, fonts are easier to adjust, visual filter setup seems much easier to me, NO IE TIE! (don't have to worry about Logos not being able to deliver on past features because MS ruled them out), can rename the books and give them a short name, don't have to type the whole reference to change to a different chapter in the same book, better tab management, the infographics thing shows promise, more options for copying resource locations, search list history, better icons...aka absence of endless icons.
Maybe this list isn't convincing, and I'm sure if I put some more thought into it I could come up with a couple more things. However keep in mind we are only on the 1st beta! we still have the improvements from Phil's initial beta post to look forward to.
Against this I will miss verse lists...temporarily. A little bit more work and I can make about the same thing in a note file till Logos implements it as a tool.I didn't use visual mark-ups enough to cry over them though I will miss them....temporarily. Also the lack of commitment to 3.0 notes and mark-ups causes me concern enough not to invest heavily in the 4.0 notes till I see how Logos will react, I'll probably use onenote.I will miss macros, but once again I'm not sure I really used them enough or see them as necessary in 4.0 yet.
Some can add to this keylinking, and serial associations. I think they will make adequate headway in these categories during the beta process for me, though. Didn't use sentence diagramming.
If this beta were the final release I probably wouldn't switch. too many bugs and hang-ups. But I'm confident in the team to be able to clean this up.
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AndrewMckenzie said:
and Logos 4 doesn't offer any basic highlight option at all.... go figure....
thats not true...placing a note in a biblical text adds highlighting to it. it may not be advanced, but it is basic.
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AndrewMckenzie said:
a pub with no beer
Andrew, I live in the hometown of the pub with no beer. I pass the sign several times every day. Usually to no effect. Now, I've got the song buzzing through my brain....
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No one said this is even close to a public release. It is a BETA, not an RC.
FWIW, I think v4 is fantastic.
Jerry
Macbook Air (2024), Apple M2, 16gb Ram, Mac Sequoia, 1TB storage
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thanks Bob and that would work fine for me... and I would think that it would for nearly everyone if not all. Bob, I saw yesterday that many people had asked if V4 was to be a new stand alone program or an upgrade but this was never totally answered... what can you tell us... is it a libronix lite version?
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Right now as it is in Beta 1 and that is all that we have now, I can not use the program to effectively write my sermon... I have a need for 3 of my old logos books that have not been redone in libronix ( which probably means that they will never be rewriten since it has been so long)... if V4 were out the door today, I would have to continue to use V3. In otherwords, yes maybe we could "get by" with out a few things... but why would you if the old version has it... I would use the old version until the new one had enough funtionality to allow me to effectively work and then I would be happy to switch. V4 is not all bad, and I know that based on what has been said that it will get better, but when will it get to V3 fuctionally? none of us know, but that point will become important as we each have very specific needs for our level of study/work! The person who only writes his sermon once avery 4-6 weeks in a team ministry will have many fewer needs than the pastor who has to write his sermon using Libronix every week becasue he is a sole pastor. I have to write a new sermon each week and would not be able to get by with out as I said three of these tools for any length of time, before I would have to find another way to get at that information... in this case V3. V4 may not have to be 100% to roll out the door, but it will need to be +90% or only new people will be able to get by with it... but when it gets to +90% then the power users will start moving.
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Philip Spitzer said:
Why would I switch? Synchronization, better window layout-ESPECIALLY dual monitor support, reading mode, collection management, more robust library filtering, clippings, image search, library search speed, customizable guides, handouts are nice to have...but I'll have to see what later betas look like to see if their useful to me, reading lists look promising, notes everywhere with better formatting options, simpler hyperlink formats, command bar (I continue to find it more and more useful), tags and favs, search returns topics, reading list, library results, and user content all at one time, simpler morphology selection, biblical things shows promise, I like the way biblical people are displayed now, not crazy about the maps...needs to highlight the found location on the map, layouts are a giant leap forward from workspaces, can't speak to syntax searching--I'm not advanced enough to try that one, reading plan can do books, fonts are easier to adjust, visual filter setup seems much easier to me, NO IE TIE! (don't have to worry about Logos not being able to deliver on past features because MS ruled them out), can rename the books and give them a short name, don't have to type the whole reference to change to a different chapter in the same book, better tab management, the infographics thing shows promise, more options for copying resource locations, search list history, better icons...aka absence of endless icons.
Thanks for the response, Phil. Not to argue, but to observe:
Synchronization: not important to me.
Dual monitor support: I wish
Better window layout. ??? That and your comment about layouts being a leap forward puzzle me. I like the look of 4.0 but don't understand why it is so much better than 3.0.
Reading mode: haven't tried. Will do.
Collection management. ?? It was slow and tedious to create collections in 3.0 but not importing them into 4.0 is a bear! Still takes a while to create collections in 4.0.
Library filtering: HMMM. I pretty much knew what was in my library and could find it, especially if I kept up my collections, but this might be a benefit.
Clippings. Don't know what these are yet, so have to check them out.
Image search. A good addition. Haven't tried it but if it works it is a real plus.
Library search speed. rarely do this in 3.0 so not much of a plus to me.
Customizable guides. Yes, this has been needed for sometime. I've learned to work without this, so I don't know how important this is to me. Savvy new users will probably be glad for it.
Handouts: HMMM. I do that using Word and Publisher now and cutting and pasting, plus SmartTags gives me all I need. New users will probably like this feature.
Reading lists: hate that you have to be online for this, though I usually am.
Notes: My first two tries crashed and I haven't been back to try again. Anything should be an improvement. over 3.0 Unfortunately some of us have waited so long for this we've developed work habits that mean little reliance on Logos notes. Something for me to try, however. What about the lack of importing old note files? I have some really important stuff there with tons of hyperlinks that I'd lose.
Command Bar: seems like a big improvement and will be very handy.
Tags: HMMM. Maybe these will help. Again, good collections and keeping them up would seem to obviate some of the need for these, but i confess I don't fully understand their usefulness.
Favs: ?? Didn't much use that facility in 3.0.
Search returns topics: I done some searches. What are these topics you are referring to? (I've just done Bible searches.)
Biblical things: in the Passage Guide it seems this has taken the place of topics. I'd want something like this but don't yet see the imporvement in this new way of displaying the data.
Biblical people: certainly a bigger offering. Never used them mush, but it should interest some people.
Rename books: Yes. An improvement.
OK, I've probably missed a few points. I appreciate your input. It does, however, only reinforce my feelings about 4.0 and keeping 3.0 for awhile. I will continue to use 4.0 and test it the best I can. I appreciate the opportunity to work with something I am passionate about: Logos Bible Software.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Bob,
I think you guys are doing a fine job. V.4 is a huge step forward, and I think your philosophy is right on - smarter and more intuitive software beats ultra-customizable.
And I can't wait for the bugs to get weeded out of V.4, and this thing hits the shelves.
Mike
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Philip Spitzer said:AndrewMckenzie said:
and Logos 4 doesn't offer any basic highlight option at all.... go figure....
thats not true...placing a note in a biblical text adds highlighting to it. it may not be advanced, but it is basic.
That is not highlighting Phil... ink blotting mabye, but not highlighting.....
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Gordon M Johnson said:
Bob,
I think you guys are doing a fine job. V.4 is a huge step forward, and I think your philosophy is right on - smarter and more intuitive software beats ultra-customizable.
And I can't wait for the bugs to get weeded out of V.4, and this thing hits the shelves.
Mike
I think most of the new stuff they have done is fine also, and yes it is a huge step foward, visually is needs a bit of work, in some place more than a bit, its what they've taken out that's not so fine....but I can't share the sentiment that it is more intuitive software.... quite the opposite..... I really wish I could share that thought because I do appreciate a lot of thought has gone into it....... I'm trying real hard but everytime I fire up this applicaiton I can't figure out how to do things so it just doesn't rate for me on being more intuitive... if this is intuitive please give me logical any day over intuitive.
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AndrewMckenzie said:
I think most of the new stuff they have done is fine also, and yes it is a huge step foward, visually is needs a bit of work, in some place more than a bit, ....... I'm trying real hard but everytime I fire up this applicaiton I can't figure out how to do things so it just doesn't rate for me on being more intuitive... if this is intuitive please give me logical any day over intuitive.
Prioritize is the most important, non-intuitive feature in v4 and Logos expect us to start with a clean slate and populate it with "favourites". Once we start we muck up the whole data type orientation of resource lists presented on the Context menu. My suggestion is that it is populated with up to 5 "favourites" of each resource type in the correct order wrt other types, and according to Logos default prioritization (together with visual cues as has already been suggested) e.g.
- Preferred English Bible
- next ...
- next ...
- Preferred Greek Bible
- next ...
- next ...
- Preferred Hebrew Bible
- next ...
- next ...
- Preferred Greek lexicon
- next ...
- next ...
- Preferred Hebrew/Aramaic lexicon
- next ...
- next ...
- Preferred Commentary
- next ...
- next ...
Elsewhere it has been suggested that it doesn't matter if you mix/interleave say lexicons and bibles, but it does matter if you place commentaries before bibles and click "Reference" on the context menu, because you may only see 5 commentaries when you expected 5 bibles! If you get 5 English bibles you might better understand that you need to come to this list and delete two of them so you see 3 English + 2 Greek bibles, and then promote Hebrew bibles so you see 3 English + 2 Hebrew bibles! If you want to see commentaries then promote them amongst the bibles!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Bob Pritchett said:
If we have the software manage files and you use the interface (in the software or on the web) to mark as hiddren resources you don't want, then A) we can reflect that automatically on any system you want, and in your future web browser access to your books, and
we can even keep a record, so if you change your mind and want the targums later you don't have to call us to find the file names and then visit the FTP to get them, etc. You can just look at the list of hidden resources and check them off again.This is what I mean by Resource Management, because whatever I did manually was because of v3's limitations!
Hiding them as you suggest is very effective as it means L4 will properly remove such resources from the HDD in addition to knowing that I don't want them installed on another machine.
Bob Pritchett said:We do understand the need for choosing the right hard drive to install to, and we'll support that. We'll probably not support putting some books on drive 1, some on drive 2, etc. because in a day of 500 Gig drives that introduces a lot of complexity for little benefit.
My concern was the way v3 manages non-default locations, because I always have to move Updates from the default folder. So v3 maintains two Resource Paths + another one for Sermon Files and compiled PBB's! I only want one Resource Path with the v4 software allowing me to move the resources and Index to a non-default location. I would like v4 to maintain sub-folders, though e.g. for PBB.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
Prioritize is the most important, non-intuitive feature in v4 and Logos expect us to start with a clean slate and populate it with "favourites". Once we start we muck up the whole data type orientation of resource lists presented on the Context menu. My suggestion is that it is populated with up to 5 "favourites" of each resource type in the correct order wrt other types, and according to Logos default prioritization (together with visual cues as has already been suggested) e.g.
Dave,
I've become more convinced of this over the last few days. It's on my rather long list of posts to write.
Obviously, for new packages, the list can easily come pre-populated. For those of us who are installing just the program, I'm not sure how simple this is. What happens to someone who simply buys the Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary and then starts adding other products - which is how I got into Logos back in 1999.
Further, I want the NJB at the top of my list because it's the closest that I can come to the Jerusalem Bible (the lectional bible of the Catholic Church). I want the NRSV because that's been my prayer bible and preferred study translation since 1988. How many would make this choice...
I like the fact that from the very beginning we can set our preferred bible (though I hate being greeted with this every time I visit the home page). What we need when we install the program is a step by step wizard to set up a few preferences. This is how IE8 begins and its a very simple process. (see http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2009/05/09/ie-setup-experience-just-the-facts-and-the-screenshots.aspx for the very extensive list of choices that IE 8.0 users have on first run - its been modified a bit due to user feedback - express choices are now an option).
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Dave Hooton said:
Hiding them as you suggest is very effective as it means L4 will properly remove such resources from the HDD** in addition to knowing that I don't want them installed on another machine.
Dave,
I'm positive that by "Hiding" Bob is not talking about removing these from the HDD but simply from the library and search interfaces of the program. It does not seem that we will be given a choice to permanently delete the files from our computers.
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Bob,
I've been reflecting a great deal on the "philosophy" behind v.4.0 since you wrote this post.
Let me start by saying that I do not consider myself a "power user." I do not use the vast majority of tools in Logos v.30. For a number of years, while doing a Licentiate in Biblical Studies in Rome and the the coursework component of a doctorate in the States, I needed high level semantic tools. But, I tended to use another bible program for these. Today, my biblical studies are reduced to my research for homily preparation and for adult education classes on biblical topics. I use the library feature of Logos more than the biblical studies features.
While I am not a "power user" of any program. I am someone who customises each program as much as possible according to my tastes and needs. I install addons for firefox (as well as changing many of the about:config options), I change the preferences in Word, I look at every option in iTunes to ensure that the program will do what I want it to do within the limits of what the programmer allows. How many do this? I don't know. But firefox has become popular because of the number of addons available. The iPhone is a raging success, in part because it is highly extensible and these extensions are easily installed and configured.
To your "philosophy":
I can't but help feeling that each and every one of your analogies fails because they refer to hardware and Logos is software. While I have no desire to play under the hood of my car or ever crack open another desktop computer to change the video card, I do want to be able to customise the software that runs on my computer and even customise the operating system.
Further, no computer really "just works": I cannot email without first setting up my email program. I can't use iTunes with my iPod until I have synced them and setup those playlists and other elements which I want kept in sync.
I like where 4.0 is headed. I like the home page (with reservations). I like the possibility for keeping my library up to date online (with great reservations). I like the general look and feel.
I just want more control!
Its not all or nothing as your initial post seems to imply - I'm not asking to hard-code xmls. I'm not asking to be able to write javascript programs for the toolbar (though icon selection is a must). I'm not asking to be able to micromanage my library, just to be able to manage it.
I want to be able to happily use v4.0.
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AndrewMckenzie said:
That is not highlighting Phil... ink blotting mabye, but not highlighting.....
Ink blotting would be me physically highlighting my screen :-)
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Damian McGrath said:
I'm positive that by "Hiding" Bob is not talking about removing these from the HDD
I'm pointing out that his suggestion implies that on this side of the cloud! If resources will NOT be installed on another machine how else do you maintain the same state with respect to the Index and resources on your current machine(s)? v3 showed that hiding them through the software was not entirely successful (try hiding a resource and then type its acronym in the Navigation box!). The complexity of doing this with software in v4 is not worth it. Just remove and re-index - I'm prepared to take the hit for stuff I genuinely do not want.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Alex Scott said:
Thanks for the outlook Bob. Much as I like the control etc of the old days, I think you're on the right track. If we settled for the old ways we'd still be in the DOS days. At first I missed using the keyboard short cuts and using the BAT files to speed and simplify everything, but now with mouse and menus etc, one hardly even thinks about it, much less miss all the tinkering and time spent customizing everything. Keep it up. I think you're on the right track for the future. Alex.
I still kind of miss the old DOS platform since I tend to be a command line junkie which is partly why I use keyboard shortcuts as a substitute (I really dislike having to use the mouse for much more than selecting text). One of the things that I miss most in v. 4.0 is the control we had over the morphological search. I've found the morph search in 4.0 to be inadequate. In 3.0 we could select the particular portion of text to be searched -- are you looking for how a particular word is used in one book? You could do that, but it doesn't seem possible in 4.0. Not only so, but it doesn't seem to find everything (sometimes not anything). If I search for the occurances of πέμπω in Revelation (no particular reason for the choice of words, I simply pulled it out of the hat), I get 5 occurances in 3.0 for Revelation. If I narrow the search to aor imv, I get 3 instances. In 4.0 I get 0 in the entire NT even with πέμπω simply indicated as the lemma. Something is obviously wrong. It may be that I haven't gotten the hang to using the morph search in 4.0, but I suspect that isn't the case.
Another thing which I both appreciate and am somewhat uneasy regarding. I never used the home page in 3.0 since I know what I want to study and how to find what I want and therefore don't wish to enter a passage and "Go". I like the newspaper style of the home page in 4.0, but I note that ET phones home each time the program is opened. I haven't yet tried disconnecting from the internet to see what happens if it can't "phone home", but I wonder whether the program will work. I suppose I'm going to have to try it to find out. If I'm required to be connected to "the cloud", I won't be a happy camper. [BTW: Could we have the option of using Windows colors as we could in 3.0?]
Throwing everything into one bucket to let the program sort things out as regards keylink resources seems to work though I still feel uneasy about it. I can envision the program picking the wrong resource for some particular data type. I also miss the option to set the program to lauch a resource on a single click. Why should I need to click on it twice?
We really need to be able to reveal the taskbar without <ctrl-tab> to switch to another program or minimizing Logos.
Supposedly we can choose which lines in an interlinear type text to reveal (I want the text, the text, and nothing but the text -- most certainly not that inane alphabet soup to reveal the morphology), but I haven't been able to do so thus far with Philo. I just tried it with Homer and found that the program became unresponsive and had to be shut down (twice). I just noticed that I'm registering 100% CPU usage. I suppose I'll need to reboot to see whether that solves the problem.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
I still kind of miss the old DOS platform since I tend to be a command line junkie
Which is even more reason to get behind the command line in 4.0. A keyboard shortcut gets you to the command line where you can open files, start a specific search, etc. With the shortcuts of 3.x you could only start a search. Then you still had to tell it what to search for. The command line opens up great possabililites.
George Somsel said:You could do that, but it doesn't seem possible in 4.0.
Sure you can, when you open the search and select morph there is a sentence at the top search all passages...click on all passages and change it to what you want.
George Somsel said:In 4.0 I get 0 in the entire NT even with πέμπω
I could be wrong, but I believe this is a known bug.
George Somsel said:If I'm required to be connected to "the cloud", I won't be a happy camper.
Bob has said in another thread that after setting Logos up you can exist outside the cloud if you want to.
George Somsel said:Throwing everything into one bucket to let the program sort things
Not too crazy about it myself but I'm waiting to see how it develops throughout the beta process before casting final judgement.
George Somsel said:We really need to be able to reveal the taskbar without <ctrl-tab> to switch to another program or minimizing Logos.
I don't seem to have this problem
George Somsel said:Supposedly we can choose which lines in an interlinear type text to reveal
There are some known issues with this. what is displayed is not saved so when you open the program again all are selected. Logos is aware and working on it. Bob hinted that they may allow for multiple interlinear lines as well. I would suggest allowing the whole window to be multiple lines. This would satisfy for the most part those who want the old 3.x way and those who prefer the 4.0 way (which I do)
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Damian McGrath said:
Obviously, for new packages, the list can easily come pre-populated. For those of us who are installing just the program, I'm not sure how simple this is. What happens to someone who simply buys the Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary and then starts adding other products - which is how I got into Logos back in 1999.
It makes no difference. v4 internally prioritises all its resources within data types much as it does in v3, except that v3 made it visible via Tools | Options | Keylink! So the proposed v4 list will only show the resources and resource types that you have! And i don't know how you can have a package without a single (free) Bible!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Philip Spitzer said:George Somsel said:
We really need to be able to reveal the taskbar without <ctrl-tab> to switch to another program or minimizing Logos.
I don't seem to have this problem
And I've got a sack of doughnut holes to put up against your $1 that says you don't hide your taskbar.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Dave Hooton said:
I'm pointing out that his suggestion implies that on this side of the cloud! If resources will NOT be installed on another machine how else do you maintain the same state with respect to the Index and resources on your current machine(s)? v3 showed that hiding them through the software was not entirely successful (try hiding a resource and then type its acronym in the Navigation box!). The complexity of doing this with software in v4 is not worth it. Just remove and re-index - I'm prepared to take the hit for stuff I genuinely do not want.
Maybe we're reading this differently. But my understanding is that all resources will be installed on all machines and will be marked as hidden on all machines. My guess is that whatever v.3's shortcomings in this regard, the hope is that they will indeed be hidden in v.3 and v.4.
Like you, I personally would like to just remove those resources which I do not want.
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George Somsel said:
And I've got a sack of doughnut holes to put up against your $1 that says you don't hide your taskbar.
hummm...doughnut holes...yummy.
you are correct...I do not hide my taskbar. I must have missed where you reported this as a bug. Sorry.
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Dave Hooton said:
And i don't know how you can have a package without a single (free) Bible!
Yes Dave, you're most likely right. I don't know what else comes on those packaged products other than the main resource.
Dave Hooton said:v4 internally prioritises all its resources within data types much as it does in v3, except that v3 made it visible via Tools | Options | Keylink! So the proposed v4 list will only show the resources and resource types that you have!
Yeah, all resources are currently prioritised alphabetically but we don't know for which datatypes unless we add them to the prioritised list and open the advanced pane.
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Philip Spitzer said:
.I do not hide my taskbar. I must have missed where you reported this as a bug. Sorry.
It's been reported a few times:
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/1064.aspx
http://community.logos.com/forums/t/793.aspx
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AndrewMckenzie said:
I think most of the new stuff they have done is fine also, and yes it is a huge step foward, visually is needs a bit of work, in some place more than a bit, its what they've taken out that's not so fine.
Well said Andrew, i salute you. There is a lot i like about V4 but it is what has been left out of V4 from V3 that is the problem. Some think to reference V3 is to say V4 is rubbish( to right it off) or to say one disapproves of V4, that is not the case! Logos success is also ours. I thank Logos for the hard work they have put into V4 & wanting to make it a success. They are going in the right direction, and we all want to see that V4 succeed. Be encouraged Logos. Thanks.Ted.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Dear Bob and Logos,
As a pastor of the the same church for 15 years (and the only church I have ever pastored), I have been able to see God's hand at work in re-energizing a congregation of 70 sr. adults, to a congregation of 350+ with multiple generations serving God together.
We have HAD to make changes, and not everyone was happy, and we lost some folk who couldn't get over the changes (new buildings, new leadership, etc.).
On a personal level, its not easy.
I just want to say that your ATTITUDE is a breath of fresh air. You have a heart to listen to the individual while at the same time seeking to develop a PRODUCT that makes BIBLE STUDY more effective and effecient for the BULK of your users.
Your responses have been gracious and I have, for one, have noticed, and am grateful.
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Damian McGrath said:
Yeah, all resources are currently prioritised alphabetically but we don't know for which datatypes unless we add them to the prioritised list and open the advanced pane.
See http://community.logos.com/forums/p/1252/10049.aspx#10049 !!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Bob Pritchett said:
I'm sorry we weren't clear. We ABSOLUTELY intend to support both PBB and SermonFile in a future release. The problem is that PBB in particular uses Internet Explorer for its format and for display. And you've all made it clear how you felt about our reliance on IE, :-), so we need to do some serious work to re-do PBB.
This work will take some time, and the big open question is whether or not we can intelligently and automatically conver the HTML in existing PBB's to our core display engine, and whether or not the inevitable incompatibilities will be acceptable or if we'll need to require them to be rebulit. (My guess is it'll be worth rebuilding/recompiling them.)
The good news is future PBB titles will be built using the exact same format/engine as books we offer, meaning you will get infinitely scrolling books and other important features.
We also intend to have an easy way to share your PBB books with others via the web, but that takes so more code on the server side.
YIPPEE!!! Happy Dance...
May I suggest that there be two ways to do this.
1) Make it as easy as possible for creators of PBB's to create the new format.
2) Have a way to import old lbxoeb files for those files where the creator is no longer active. Logically, this would be a part of the whole library import and indexing process. It would be great if this code could offer to DL the new files if you (Logos) know about them instead of converting them on the fly, but this could be considerable work for you, unfortunately.
Ken McGuire
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
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Ted Hans said:Well said Andrew, i salute you. There is a lot i like about V4 but it is what has been left out of V4 from V3 that is the problem. Some think to reference V3 is to say V4 is rubbish( to right it off) or to say one disapproves of V4, that is not the case! Logos success is also ours. I thank Logos for the hard work they have put into V4 & wanting to make it a success. They are going in the right direction, and we all want to see that V4 succeed. Be encouraged Logos. Thanks.
I'm not about to write of 4.0, but unless and until they get the morphology search and a few other items fixed it will be of no use to me other than as a platform to read certain books in my collection. It is useless for serious study at this point.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George,
I'm hoping that this is a priority.
Without syntax and morphology searching; Logos is just a glorified Kindle.
This type of searching is what sets Logos apart from the competition!
Any of the free bible software packages can do stupid searches, or allow you to read your electronic bible or bring up a commentary alongside....
But the searching is why I paid the dough....to get LOGOS.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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George Somsel said:Ted Hans said:Well said Andrew, i salute you. There is a lot i like about V4 but it is what has been left out of V4 from V3 that is the problem. Some think to reference V3 is to say V4 is rubbish( to right it off) or to say one disapproves of V4, that is not the case! Logos success is also ours. I thank Logos for the hard work they have put into V4 & wanting to make it a success. They are going in the right direction, and we all want to see that V4 succeed. Be encouraged Logos. Thanks.
I'm not about to write of 4.0, but unless and until they get the morphology search and a few other items fixed it will be of no use to me other than as a platform to read certain books in my collection. It is useless for serious study at this point.
Hi George,
Great to hear from you & greetings. I agree with you mate, i am glad someone of your calibre in the original language is commenting on the inadequacies of V4.George Somsel said:It is useless for serious study at this point.
Not to make light of your point which i agree with. However i am glad you did not write in Auf Deutsch, natürlich! [Swahili, of course!]
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Philip Spitzer said:AndrewMckenzie said:
That is not highlighting Phil... ink blotting mabye, but not highlighting.....
Ink blotting would be me physically highlighting my screen :-)
with a very fine nib.......Its as effective as ink blotting though regardless of the nib
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George Somsel said:Philip Spitzer said:George Somsel said:
We really need to be able to reveal the taskbar without <ctrl-tab> to switch to another program or minimizing Logos.
I don't seem to have this problem
And I've got a sack of doughnut holes to put up against your $1 that says you don't hide your taskbar.
I use the windows key to access taskbar, easier than ALT-TAB..... windows key might prove a problem for MAC users though using a windows emulator....
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George et al,
Somewhere along the way it seems people are forgetting two things:
- This is a beta
- This is the *first* beta
Logos knows there are things that need fixing, enhancing, etc, but to even begin to talk about writing-off Logos 4 is somewhat odd at this stage of things. Be patient, submit feedback, continue to use Logos 3 for your work, and wait and watch as things progress.
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Andrew,
The Apple/Command key on a Mac is the same as a Windows key on a PC so the trick still works and is what I've been doing to pull up the taskbar.0 -
Damian McGrath said:Dave Hooton said:
And i don't know how you can have a package without a single (free) Bible!
Yes Dave, you're most likely right. I don't know what else comes on those packaged products other than the main resource.
Dave Hooton said:v4 internally prioritises all its resources within data types much as it does in v3, except that v3 made it visible via Tools | Options | Keylink! So the proposed v4 list will only show the resources and resource types that you have!
Yeah, all resources are currently prioritised alphabetically but we don't know for which datatypes unless we add them to the prioritised list and open the advanced pane.
To work with this we need a view that allows us to show all resources of a certain dataytype and we need and adavanced view on the 'new' about resource which can shows us everything about the book its datatypes and searchability....the 'new' about resource page is about as useful as an advertisement on Amazon, the power of what one can do with all the work Logos has put into it behind the scenes is now hidden.
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Chris Roberts said:
George et al,
Somewhere along the way it seems people are forgetting two things:
- This is a beta
- This is the *first* beta
Logos knows there are things that need fixing, enhancing, etc, but to even begin to talk about writing-off Logos 4 is somewhat odd at this stage of things. Be patient, submit feedback, continue to use Logos 3 for your work, and wait and watch as things progress.
Yes! Ditto, Chis.
Jerry
Macbook Air (2024), Apple M2, 16gb Ram, Mac Sequoia, 1TB storage
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Chris Roberts said:
George et al,
Somewhere along the way it seems people are forgetting two things:
- This is a beta
- This is the *first* beta
Logos knows there are things that need fixing, enhancing, etc, but to even begin to talk about writing-off Logos 4 is somewhat odd at this stage of things. Be patient, submit feedback, continue to use Logos 3 for your work, and wait and watch as things progress.
I don't think that anyone has forgotten those facts. It is precisely because this is a beta that we are pointing out problems and indicating their importance. Without original language searching which WORKS Logos is only better than print books by not requiring shelf space. Of course I'm continuing to use 3.0, did you think I was going to quit working?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:Ted Hans said:Well said Andrew, i salute you. There is a lot i like about V4 but it is what has been left out of V4 from V3 that is the problem. Some think to reference V3 is to say V4 is rubbish( to right it off) or to say one disapproves of V4, that is not the case! Logos success is also ours. I thank Logos for the hard work they have put into V4 & wanting to make it a success. They are going in the right direction, and we all want to see that V4 succeed. Be encouraged Logos. Thanks.
I'm not about to write of 4.0, but unless and until they get the morphology search and a few other items fixed it will be of no use to me other than as a platform to read certain books in my collection. It is useless for serious study at this point.
I've never considered a need for Bibleworks because Logos has always grown with me in my understanding of OL's and superceeded my growth rate...what I've seen in v4 has resulted in me thinking wether or not I need to cancel some of my Logos prepubs and invest in Bibleworks because this product no longer seems to be headed in the direction of supporting serious bible study. I am not about to make that decision anytime soon as this is only a beta and I really am hoping I have got the wrong end of the stick in terms of the programs direction.
That said bring on the change, 3.0 wasn't never there, nor will 4.0 be for that matter , but it can be a whole lot closer, but we need to carefullly weigh up the cost of that change ( I don't speak of monetary value but the way in which we do our bible study and how this tool enriches this process). And that is what people who are being loud about the changes are doing. We are not against change, we are not saying we dont' want change, we are doing what I believe we are supposed to do as one of our tasks in a beta program, we are looking at this beta and seeing how adequately the vision of the designers and developers matches our needs as user of this software in our daily task of bible study.
A beta program with a generational change like this needs open honest feedback. And sometimes that means saying we don't like the particular change as implemented. It maybe that it hasn't gone far enough, or that its gone too far, or that in fixing one problem its created another, or satisfied one type of user at the expense of another type of user. Bring on the change but lets do so, with open eyes, a willingness to say when that change is not helpful, a careful evaluation of the cost of that change, what impact that change has had on the 'saltiness' of the software and above all a respect for others who might be a different type of user to us and so see the change different to we do. It doesn't make either of us wrong, just different.
I hope by the time we get to the end of the beta process Logos Bible Software has a great new shiny product ready to launch to the market with a group of beta testers who are strongly behind that product. I hope that Bob has takes on board enought of the concerns raised during this beta process by a variety of users and as a result most of my personal concerns are addressed in some way and I can put to bed any thoughts of needing another application to fill in any gaps that I and others currently perceive as opening up at the moment n Logos 4.0
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AndrewMckenzie said:
this product no longer seems to be headed in the direction of supporting serious bible study.
I am excited about the 4.0 changes but I must admit that I was think today is seems like Logos is moving more towards library features and less towards
Bible Study. Hopefully this is a wrong impression.0 -
Chris Roberts said:
Andrew,
The Apple/Command key on a Mac is the same as a Windows key on a PC so the trick still works and is what I've been doing to pull up the taskbar.Thanks Chris, its a long time since I've seen one of those up close, maybe an Apple II I thik it was, back in my high school days, I think we had the one Apple for some reason...I never used it so not sure.
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Philip Spitzer said:AndrewMckenzie said:
this product no longer seems to be headed in the direction of supporting serious bible study.
I am excited about the 4.0 changes but I must admit that I was think today is seems like Logos is moving more towards library features and less towards
Bible Study. Hopefully this is a wrong impression.Hmm, I hope you are not right, guys. I don't want to buy some other program. I don't want to, and I am not able to afford it. I invested into Logos seeing it does everything I can ever need. I hope we will not get less in v4, but more, isn't it logical to expect that from a newer and using more advanced technology software?
Bohuslav
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AndrewMckenzie said:
I hope by the time we get to the end of the beta process Logos Bible Software has a great new shiny product ready to launch to the market with a group of beta testers who are strongly behind that product. I hope that Bob has takes on board enought of the concerns raised during this beta process by a variety of users and as a result most of my personal concerns and I can put to bed any thoughts of needing another application to fill in any gaps that I and others currently perceive as opening up at the moment n Logos 4.0
I am finding that i am agreeing with your assessment more & more. I find it hard to understand why some cannot see that it is what has been left out from V3 in V4 that is raising concern. If concerns are not raised at this stage in the process we might get an inadequate product & Logos will be nonetheless wiser. Logos might say no one raised these concerns with us at the Beta stage, we would have done something about it. Thanks to you & George, i hope your contribution even makes V4 a better product. Some see raising concerns as being negative which i disagree with in this case. Why would Logos have Beta testers if they did not want honest feedback? We all want a better product & we should respect each others views.
I pray for the success of V4 & wish Logos all the best .
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Philip Spitzer said:
I must admit that I was think today is seems like Logos is moving more towards library features and less towards
Bible Study.You guys are freaking me out. Really. :-)
Internally, we think we're moving completely towards Bible study. We're trying to put more and stronger Bible study support into the product precisely because we're worried that the Kindle, iPhone, Google books, etc. are all making "digital books" common and cheap. We're trying to build ever more powerful tools for Bible study.
The fact that you see us moving in exactly the opposite direction we think we're moving is scary. Either we have a communication problem, or we're way off base.
First of all, let me say again that we expect to have every key Bible study feature in 3.x in the 4.x platform -- some of them are just a little behind. And this isn't some vague promise -- we've literally got specifications drawn up for these features, with what we think are significant improvements. There is a 20 page spec for sentence diagramming, a dozen pages on the improved Vese List documents, and plans to do visual markup. Sermon file and PBB are both already specified. The only features we're planning to drop with no alternate solution are Remote Library Search (because you can do it on the web now), Graphical Query Editor (superceded by better search and syntax searching), confusing overhead (Library Maintenance, Account Management moving to the web), and, um, I can't remember. But nothing big.
What's also scaring me is that we thought we'd put dramatic Bible study improvements in the 4.0 you already have, but you're telling me (kinda) that there's nothing there. So, just in case it's a communication problem, let me lay out some of what we thought were big wins for Bible study (vs. simple library functions):
Guides: You can edit the content of the guides. You can take notes inline, and have them saved right there on the guide for a passage or word, so they're at your fingertips when you look at it again. If you do a study on didasko in this passage, you'll see it when you encounter the word in another passage.
You can build your own custom guide templates to match your own study process.
Bible Word Study Guide: Cooler visualizations, and smarter integration of syntax searching directly into the report. Example uses of the word in different grammatical constructs, in Greek/Hebrew and English. A new graphic that helps you see the word in relation to prepositions it is used with. (Some of this may not be visible, if you don't have the syntax resources yet.)
Exegetical Guide: Smarter, better use of the reverse interlinear. All the data shown in parallel in both languages. No more confusing choice of morphologies. (Remember how 3.0 had a morph scheme dropdown in addition to the text?) 4.0 integrates multiple morph schemes and shows you the consensus parsing of the word, using +- to show labels from schemes that disagree. This should make it easier to use, remove confusion, and give you access to multiple databases in one report, instead of requiring you to consult several.
Syntax searching: This isn't quite finished, and some people don't have it all in Beta 1, but we've invested heavily in what we thought was an easier query editor, with drag-drop of terms in a graph that mirrors the syntax graphs, (with copy and paste, too), and with a (still to be finished) template system that will deliver more than a dozen complex syntax queries as simple fill in the blanks. Our hope was that this would make the power of syntax searching available to more users.
Power lookup: The ability to have Bible references, footnotes, etc. automatically looked up -- and to focus the lookup on a tight range by simply selecting text in the resource -- should make it even easier to dig deeper.
Reverse interlinear: I know many of you want the full-screen view back, and we're looking into that. But the point was to make it easier to use, and more accessible to people who'd started in the surface text and then want to dig into the original languages. We even offer to run Bible Word Study on Greek (or Hebrew) words from the context menu in texts with reverse interlienars, without forcing you to switch to the rev int.
Inline notes: You haven't seen this yet... but in 4.0 we'll be able to release books that have note fields directly inline, making the product better suited for Bible study guides and courseware.
Sympathetic highlighting: To help people get from English to original language, or to better compare translations.
Visual filter documents: Letting you highlight text with saved queries, for both words and morph characteristics. (By release, the morph queries will work for English Bibles thave have rev ints.)
I think these are all positive moves in the direction of Bible study, not library features. Where's the disconnect? Are they different features than you want? Are we not making them visible enough? Are they just still too broken/hard to discover in the beta? Did we make a mistake in not being clear up front about which things were missing and exactly when they'll be "put back"?
Clearly someting's wrong -- and I know it's Logos' fault. I just want to find out which thing we're weak on so we can work on improving it.
Thanks!
(I really do appreciate the feedback, especially the criticisms, and if I'm coming across too defensive, please forgive me -- it's been over 3,400 messages in a week, and I'm reading every one. Sometimes I get overwhelmed!)
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Bob Pritchett said:
Bible Word Study Guide: Cooler visualizations, and smarter integration of syntax searching directly into the report. Example uses of the word in different grammatical constructs, in Greek/Hebrew and English. A new graphic that helps you see the word in relation to prepositions it is used with. (Some of this may not be visible, if you don't have the syntax resources yet.)
If that means more of those snowflake designs, I think they're about as worthless as the proverbial appendages on a boar, but I'm not particularly a visual person. Perhaps others will feel differently. I noticed there was no real mention of the morph search (unless you include it under BWS). This is the sine qua non so far as I'm concerned. The syntax search sounds interesting, but it has a steep learning curve which I've never taken the time to climb. Perhaps your improvements will help.
Bob Pritchett said:Sympathetic highlighting: To help people get from English to original language, or to better compare translations.
I don't understand what this is supposed to signify. Perhaps it has a meaning among the computer literati, but I don't understand its significance. Perhaps you could explain.
I hope we aren't freeking you out too much. It is only natural that we will tell you where it DOES NOT meet our needs or desires. I have confidence that when the process is complete it will have been worth the effort so don't take my criticisms as an absolute "I don't like it (and never will)." Rather, understand it as saying that here are the areas where I think work needs to be done.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George, I'm a bit out of the loop on morph search. Is it just not working in beta 1? Because you're talking like we've dropped it, when we've actually invested a lot in making it easier (we hope!). Just go to Search | Morph and type g: to start a Greek word, and "@" to start entering morph tags...
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Bob, Thanks so much for the thoughts. It's good to hear everything that is being included! I'm really enjoying 4.0, and it sounds like most of what I'm using are just currently unimplemented features. I just posted another thread about my wife's first experience with 4.0 and she loved the intuitiveness of the program. I too am equally pleased with the new look and feel! I do have one question about a feature that is not being kept:
Bob Pritchett said:The only features we're planning to drop with no alternate solution are ... Graphical Query Editor (superceded by better search and syntax searching),
One of the reasons I loved the graphical query editor was it allowed me to perform fairly complicated morphological searches without knowing regular expressions. I was never good with the whole BEFORE or WITHIN, etc. I liked being able to draw arrows to specify the relationships between words. I love the new syntax visuals, and I like the new morphological input. But I can't see a way to replicate the multiple item morphological searches without using the (in my opinion) more difficult typed operators (BEFORE, etc.). But perhaps I'm missing something.
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Bob Pritchett said:
George, I'm a bit out of the loop on morph search. Is it just not working in beta 1? Because you're talking like we've dropped it, when we've actually invested a lot in making it easier (we hope!). Just go to Search | Morph and type g: to start a Greek word, and "@" to start entering morph tags...
For me it might as well be not working since I haven't gotten any results from it. I had used "lemma:πέμπω@VAAM2S" to search for the aorist impv of πέμπω in Revelation (Again, no particular reason -- the example was pulled out of a hat). Since you said to type "g" I did that appending "lemma:πέμπω@VAAM2S" after it. I still get no results. Since I downloaded the program and am on the CD group, I had to uninstall and reinstall from the CD. For some reason on reinstall I don't have the lectionary or the help file -- it opens but never produces anything other than a blank page. Perhaps the help file would indeed help, but I don't have that luxury at the moment so I simply "wing it."
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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