Logos 4 Philosophy
Comments
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I think by the time 4.1 is here we wil all look back and wonder what the fuss was about, I am looking forward to using v4 for everyday use, being a software developer myself I know how hard it is redesigning a fully working program from scratch, and think Logos is headed in the right direction.
We gripe and groan cos by nature we hate change, but then we adapt.. human natire at its best..
I think the "problems" seem huge in the beta, cos its so new, but the more I play whe more I like it, I would disagree that v4 isnt a madatory replacement, IMO I think it needs to be.
Logos 4 is definitely the the way forward, albeit with a couple of wrinkles now, but the future looks bright, I look forward with excitement to the final release of 4.0 and the extras bits (hopefully) promised by 4.1.
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
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Bob Pritchett said:
With all that said, I know we need to make it work. We need
your feedback to know what's a good streamlining and where we need to leave
some user control. It's clear we can't assume your C: drive has enough space;
but I don't think that means we need to bring back the Location Manager report
and tell you file sizes and version numbers.Bob, we asked and you gave us a better Library Management. We also asked, but now you don't want to give us a better Resource Management because you figured that Cloud Management was what we really needed!? Please don't go the Vista route and learn the bitter lesson that MS lost sight of the "user perception/experience". I've learned not to hark back to v3 for my Collections and Logos is early enough in the beta process to give us the Windows 7 solution to Resource Management [I've dealt with the Mac analogy elsewhere].
Specifically, I thought to download v4 whilst waiting for the DVD to arrive in Oz. I thought I could manage 640 MB out of my budget of 4 GB for the month. There was a glitch during downloading and my usage meter told me I used about 1600 MB. So now I've used 55% of my budget in 39% of the month! Then you want me to accept unconditional downloads of missing and updated resources, and put up with 6 hours of re-indexing! I agree it solves a problem from your end, for which you have the statistics from v3, but please consider the stats at my end. Further, many of my resources are deliberately missing as I have no intention of ever using the Targums files. I've also got several versions of the Merriam Webster dictionary, and BHS Westminster bible. I'd like Resource Management to assist me in dealing with these issues as I don't necessarily want to remove them nor update every time a typo is fixed. I'd like it to move my resources to another location without the drawbacks of v3 e.g. all updates will be stored at my non-default location, especially if it continues to store what appear like data files in the v4 resource location.
Please continue to provide installation DVD's with periodically updated resources.
Bob Pritchett said:Are some people going to hate it? Yes. Some people refuse to
have an email address.Some people don't have an internet connection, but desire to use the program. Are they going to be disadvantaged, even if a friend can act as an intermediary?
Bob Pritchett said:Logos 4 isn't a mandatory replacement, and it doesn't take
away anything you have invested in. It's an optional new product that works
with the content you've invested in. I hope you'll like it, and I hope you'll
help us make it better. But if not, I hope you'll still realize that it has
value for a new, different user, and that, correctly done, it can help even
more people get into better Bible study.I could rephrase that as "if you don't like what I give you in v4 then stay with v3"!
Bob, you need to give us more time to adjust, perhaps remove some of your pre-conceptions about what I'm asking even now to "help make it better". I'm truly impressed with the product, that you took full advantage of the new windowing technology of .NET, finally got to use database technology, and listened to most of what we asked for 4 years ago - - when we also knew the technology that was available but you had the vision to take it a step beyond most of our expectations. I just ask that you continue to listen.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
Then you want me to accept unconditional downloads of missing and updated resources, and put up with 6 hours of re-indexing! I agree it solves a problem from your end, for which you have the statistics from v3, but please consider the stats at my end. Further, many of my resources are deliberately missing as I have no intention of ever using the Targums files. I've also got several versions of the Merriam Webster dictionary, and BHS Westminster bible. I'd like Resource Management to assist me in dealing with these issues as I don't necessarily want to remove them nor update every time a typo is fixed. I'd like it to move my resources to another location without the drawbacks of v3 e.g. all updates will be stored at my non-default location, especially if it continues to store what appear like data files in the v4 resource location.
Agreed Dave. I would like to delete the abbreviated version of TDNT and middle LSJ.
I would like to store my resources on the
partition of my netbook and not on the C: partition (this is what I have done with Logos 3.0 which thankfully allowed for the easy install of Logos 4.0)Microsoft, Antivirus programs, regular other programs all allow automatic updates, scheduled updates or the ability to turn off updates (for manual updating at a desired time). I'm sure that all of these other companies have made these options available for very good reasons. I know that those of us who make use of them do so for good reason.
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Bob,
I too appreciate you taking the time to explain the philosophy behind this version and I can understand the desire to go forward in this development.
When I first installed V.4, I was a little taken back due to it being so vastly different. It is true that it was like going from the older Word versions to Word 2007 with the "dreaded ribbon."![:)] It took some getting use to, but in time it became easier. (But there are still things that I like better in the older versions, as it was quicker to accomplish certain tasks.)
While it is true that most households now have a computer, I am not sure what the percentage is of internet connection. Also to keep in mind is the type of internet connection. Recently I returned to the States, to take care of my step-father after multiple surgeries. While there I only had "dial-up" connection to the Internet!!! As a result, my time on the internet was vastly reduced. I even tried to establish a fast speed connection at my parents's house, and discovered that there was nothing availalbe at this location! So, we are not even talking about 3rd world countires. We are talking about those who live in the rural areas of the United States. They would be unable to use this "cloud computing" concept. And then bring in those who do live in foreign areas and this also diminishes the possibility of using Logos software, which is sad to even consider.
So, I guess what I am trying to say is that I do believe that there is a need to go forward in developing, always taking advantage of the latest technology, but at the same time, remembering the masses who do not have this technology.
Give us the improvements, but also allow us to have flexibility in changing things. I have used your software almost from the beginning (the days of CD Word!) and it has enabled me to have access to so much more information, at such a faster rate as I have prepared to teach of the Word of God. But I want to keep the focus on teaching the Word, and not having to do things more slowly for the benefit of "future technology."
And I would be greatly disappointed if PBBS were not included. I was just at the point that I was considering buying this program, as I have a lot of things I would like to put in a book format, that could be used by Logos, when I hear that PBBS would not be included. I do ask that you reconsider this.
I do appreciate all that Logos has given us and am looking foward to the continued improvements of the software.
Thanks for all of your hard work,
Charlene
Charlene
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I plan to adapt version 4. But since this is only Beta 1, I plan to adapt slowly. I prefer to let others find the best ways to set up the system. I do like the search speed. I am starting to understand and like the collections.
I don't miss 65 data types. But I do wish that we could prioritize our books in sub groups. I am thinking of groups such as: Bibles, language resources, commentaries, dictionary, general works, etc. I would keep in broad as there is a fair amount of overlap in many resources. For example you will not find information on the historical development of the doctrine of Christ in Bibles or language resources. But you might find such information in commentaries, theology books, dictionaries, etc. Instead of putting my favorite books in one pile, I would like them on 4-5 piles on my desk. I think that even the non geeks would do okay with such a change. The program could be set up with a default mode that remembers previous book choices for those who don't like to tinker.
I thought that management of Greek resources was difficult in Logos 3. There are 9 data types that are Greek related. It needed to be made simpler. There needs to be a way for someone to manage Greek resources without having to go through the whole library.
I think that it takes a different set up for someone who has 330 books in a Scholars library and someone who has 2,000 or more books. The program needs to be simple enough for a new user to do significant Bible study quickly. But it needs to have enough power to allow someone who has a significant amount of resources to limit and control that which he sees.
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Wayne,
I think that this is easier than you think.
I set up collections not so that they are faster searches but to limit the results to "types" of resources likely to give me what I need...example:
Yesterday I wanted to search a theology question.
I had no "Systematic Theology" collection set up yet so I just took 1 minute and created one like so:
title:systematic ANDNOT andersen
(I had the Andersen Forbes show up in this list...hmmm)
So in 20 seconds I had my search collection.
In another minute I did my search.
So what I've been doing has been on a "need to have" basis...see a need; create a collection for it.
My list is pretty basic:
All bibles
All English bibles
All Greek Texts
All Hebrew Texts
Systematic Theologies
Calvins commentaries
Owens Commentary
BECNT
BNTC
Bible Dictionaries
Bible Histstory and Culture
Archeology
Bible Images
Early Church Fathers
TEGNT
And so on...
That's the way I went about it on V3 and it seems to be a good plan on V4.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Kelly Todd said:
but for how many days until the software ceases to work and requires us to hook up to the internet?
You can run completely offline. In a worst case scenario, we can mail you a custom CD-ROM with your licenses. (We hope this is never, though -- it's a pain!) But even if you only connect once, to activate and sync licenses, you can then run forever offline.
You only need to connect to A) get updates,
get new licenses, C) sync your data. If your system is up and running, you can theoretically never connect to the Internet again.0 -
Richard DeRuiter said:
but Logos' philosophy here seems to have shifted, since we see no promise to continue to support those functions in version 4.
I'm sorry we weren't clear. We ABSOLUTELY intend to support both PBB and SermonFile in a future release. The problem is that PBB in particular uses Internet Explorer for its format and for display. And you've all made it clear how you felt about our reliance on IE, :-), so we need to do some serious work to re-do PBB.
This work will take some time, and the big open question is whether or not we can intelligently and automatically conver the HTML in existing PBB's to our core display engine, and whether or not the inevitable incompatibilities will be acceptable or if we'll need to require them to be rebulit. (My guess is it'll be worth rebuilding/recompiling them.)
The good news is future PBB titles will be built using the exact same format/engine as books we offer, meaning you will get infinitely scrolling books and other important features.
We also intend to have an easy way to share your PBB books with others via the web, but that takes so more code on the server side.
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Dave Hooton said:
Further, many of my resources are deliberately missing as I have no intention of ever using the Targums files.
This is a good example of why we want to help manage your resources. If you mess around with the files directly, you'll "hide" books by simply deleting them from your hard drive. Then you move to a laptop, or a new machine, and the book gets installed again from some CD-ROM, unless you manually copy over your hand-pruned resource directory.
Moreover, if you lose all your systems and call us for a new license file, there's no record of what you'd deleted, so you end up having to do it all over on a clean system.
If we have the software manage files and you use the interface (in the software or on the web) to mark as hiddren resources you don't want, then A) we can reflect that automatically on any system you want, and in your future web browser access to your books, and
we can even keep a record, so if you change your mind and want the targums later you don't have to call us to find the file names and then visit the FTP to get them, etc. You can just look at the list of hidden resources and check them off again.We do understand the need for choosing the right hard drive to install to, and we'll support that. We'll probably not support putting some books on drive 1, some on drive 2, etc. because in a day of 500 Gig drives that introduces a lot of complexity for little benefit.
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Bob Pritchett said:
We ABSOLUTELY intend to support both PBB and SermonFile in a future release.
Good to hear, but I was totally confident that you would.
Maybe, to calm the fears of some, the Beta 1 Release Notes forum article should reflect that commitment.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Bob Pritchett said:
because in a day of 500 Gig drives that introduces a lot of complexity for little benefit.
are you saying that Logos 4.0 will ship with a 500 gig hard drive....please oh please oh please!!!!
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Bob,
You asked us geeks two questions in your post:
- Are we in the majority? Clearly, no.
- Are we "turning something we did because we had to into something we want because we've always done it that way?" Perhaps.
But I want to ask you two questions:
- Can you and your development team accurately anticipate the users' needs--can you figure out what enough people need both now and in the next few years?
- If you can, can you afford the cost of meeting those needs, even those that may be arcane, or those that may not even exist yet?
And because I cannot count, here is a third question: Can you really afford not to meet those remote and future needs?
Look, Bob, on the one hand, I understand the need to simplify for the sake of customer support costs. You need to appeal to the middle in order to capture a reasonable section of the market. You cannot effectively bear the cost of answering thousands of "I lost my password" questions.
I do not believe you can be all things to all men. I do not believe it makes business sense for you to maintain development resources in areas that are beyond your core competencies. You cannot justify building features in areas that do not appeal enough people to warrant the cost. So you have to pull in your sails a bit--to focus on the core.
But, on the other hand, your audience is necessarily made up of geeks of one fashion or another--some tech geeks, but may other theology geeks and Greek geeks and even a few Hebrew geeks. If you appeal to the middle, how will you meet the needs of these very influential fringe members of your constituency? These users with out-of-the-mainstream requirements will often be the ones recommending your software to the vast and profitable middle.
If you compare the geek fringe to "tinkerers," I'm afraid you're missing the point. This isn't simply about tinkering. It's about marketing. It's about gaining a following.
So I have two suggested approaches:
1. The first is technical. Maintain the open API that you had in version 3. Yes, it will cost you to develop it. But an open architecture frees you from having to meet every possible need now and in the future. Let someone else do it. Take the iPhone slogan: "there's an app for that." Open the architecture so developers can build add-ons to address needs that either are not profitable for you or are not within the Logos core competencies.
You talked about this when you released version 3. It is more true now than before--the potential user needs are wider and the technical possibilities are more extensive.
Take the notes system as an example. Logos cannot possibly compete with all the note-taking options available. It would be expensive and futile for you to build the perfect note system. So let someone else do it. Make it possible to connect between your reader and other apps. You did this in version 3. Continue it in version 4.
2. The second is more directed at marketing. Build a community. I suggest you read Bob Garfield's The Chaos Scenario (http://thechaosscenario.net/blog/). The first two chapters are available for free download at his site. You should read this in part because it describes the effects of the digital revolution of which Logos is very much a part. But you should also read it because he gives an example of how one company turned geeks into evangelists and made a lot of money in the process. The company is Lego--the product is Mind Storms. I'll leave it to you to read the example (he gives a preview of it in the free excerpt on his website).
Marketing today is less about display advertising and more about building community--event planning. Logos has already understood this: you conduct "Camp Logos" programs. You listen to us geeks on the newsgroups and forums. You created community pricing. You released this private beta.
But you can gain an even greater marketing advantage by allowing developers to add-on to Logos in a way that meets the needs of the community--mainstream and niche needs alike. Doing so would make Logos even "stickier" than it already is--"I'm going to stick with Logos because Bibleworks doesn't have this app I rely on." It will allow developers to build better add-ons for the masses--note systems, handouts, RSS feeds, mobile apps--apps that will appeal to their own communities. You could even create an add-on store on Logos.com that would showcase these 3rd-party products.
And beneath all of this stands your elegant and essential foundation: securing your profitable place in this community.
Had I more time, I would extend the rationale for this kind of community to the nature of Body of Christ--this is something we should do as members fitly joined together. But I'll save that argument for later.
Let your people go. Keep the architecture open.
Steven H. Kaminski, Ph.D.
Steven Kaminski
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Bob Pritchett said:
I'm sorry we weren't clear. We ABSOLUTELY intend to support both PBB and SermonFile in a future release. The problem is that PBB in particular uses Internet Explorer for its format and for display. And you've all made it clear how you felt about our reliance on IE, :-), so we need to do some serious work to re-do PBB.
This work will take some time, and the big open question is whether or not we can intelligently and automatically conver the HTML in existing PBB's to our core display engine, and whether or not the inevitable incompatibilities will be acceptable or if we'll need to require them to be rebulit. (My guess is it'll be worth rebuilding/recompiling them.)
I am happy recompiling all mine, for the upside benifit it will be worth the while/wait..
Bob Pritchett said:The good news is future PBB titles will be built using the exact same format/engine as books we offer, meaning you will get infinitely scrolling books and other important features.
Excellent - if that means notes and highlighting thats fantastic news
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
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I have never seen a company with as passionate of supporters as Logos. I am one of them. And please keep in mind that it is those same passionate supporters who are asking for pretty reasonable features.
I have personally spent upwards of $12,000 on my Digital Library. I have been personally responsible for more than 30 people purchasing Scholars Library or better, and I offer them hours upon hours of technical support and training because I know just how much this software can help with the study of God's word and the reading of books.
The ones who use all of the features of Libronix and appreciate the power tools and customizability may be a minority but I imagine that this minority is responsible for drawing and maintaining the majority. People don't spend $400-$1000+ on software without some pretty strong personal recommendations. Those recommendations are flowing probably most powerfully and effectively from this group. I know that what you are doing is an attempt to serve us well. Your note that started this off is concerning to me though; please don't forget us...your note makes me and probably many others wonder if that's what you're trying to do. I believe the best, and I again state that I have never been more happy with a product or a company than I am with Logos...
I think that there are more things I am excited about in v 4 than the things I am concerned about, but the concerns are real and they will keep many people hanging back in version 3. That is not something you want to do! Don't fragment your community. This is crucial, and the above note seemed to be telling your most loyal and influential clients: We know Vista has it's problems, don't worry, you can keep using XP. It was at that point that Apple became truly powerfulJacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
This work will take some time...
If you are saying we have two options, 1) wait another year or two for you to have 100% of the old features in place or 2) have the option of a less featured 4.0 now knowing that more goods will follow.... then I gladly take 2.
I guess I'm saying this more as a reminder for us users then for you, Bob [;)] We can always just hold on to 3.X until 4.0 supports the options we require in order to effectively do Bible Study the same or better then we've done it in the past. With that mindset the problem is not the features you offer at initial release but our abilities in patience.
There is only one thing that has my concern and that is the impression that notes and markups in 3.X will never carry over to 4.0. You have earned my trust that if you say verse lists, sentence diagramming, etc. are coming down the pike then I believe you. But to leave us with the option of 1)losing hard investments and work or 2)holding on to an antiquated program indefinitely causes us to ask whether or not our decision to take our library digital was truly a wise move. If we start doubting that, we will not recommend others take the same uncertain path and as another user said, you really do need our recommendations to continue getting new users.
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That 's great to hear Bob! I was looking at the release notes on Beta one and mourning a bit because of all my sermons (and yes all of my 1000+ PBB's!) It appeared there that PBB and SERMON file's were history. So Thanks for this clarification!Bob Pritchett said:I'm sorry we weren't clear. We ABSOLUTELY intend to support both PBB and SermonFile in a future release.
Actually Bob, if you'll keep the same XML format for the lbsupd file I can generate a PBB download script NOW for my website. (I've already tested it).Bob Pritchett said:We also intend to have an easy way to share your PBB books with others via the web, but that takes so more code on the server side.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Bob Pritchett said:Richard DeRuiter said:
but Logos' philosophy here seems to have shifted, since we see no promise to continue to support those functions in version 4.
I'm sorry we weren't clear. We ABSOLUTELY intend to support both PBB and SermonFile in a future release. The problem is that PBB in particular uses Internet Explorer for its format and for display. And you've all made it clear how you felt about our reliance on IE, :-), so we need to do some serious work to re-do PBB.
This work will take some time, and the big open question is whether or not we can intelligently and automatically conver the HTML in existing PBB's to our core display engine, and whether or not the inevitable incompatibilities will be acceptable or if we'll need to require them to be rebulit. (My guess is it'll be worth rebuilding/recompiling them.)
The good news is future PBB titles will be built using the exact same format/engine as books we offer, meaning you will get infinitely scrolling books and other important features.
We also intend to have an easy way to share your PBB books with others via the web, but that takes so more code on the server side.
Bob, you cannot imagine how much you made me happy by your very clear statement about pbb. PBB is very vital for me since it is the only way how to have other than English Bibles in Logos NOW, not in the uncertain future. If you make pbb's even better, more like the full-blood Logos books, wonderful. Visual Markups would be great. Notes - excellent. To be able to make pbb Bible a real Bible (to setup the type of the resource) would be just dream fulfilled.
Thank you for making it clear you plan to keep them. I will be more than happy to compile them again. Thank you again.
Bohuslav
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Philip Spitzer said:
If you are saying we have two options, 1)
wait another year or two for you to have 100% of the old features in
place or 2) have the option of a less featured 4.0 now knowing that more goods will follow.... then I gladly take 2.Phil,
What exactly is so compelling to you about 4.0 that you'd take a less feature-filled version of that over 3.0? I ask because right now my inclination would be to wait for the full feature set to come out and continue to use 3.0 until then. In other words, just the opposite of your choice. Perhaps I am missing a good bit here.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Mark A. Smith said:Philip Spitzer said:
If you are saying we have two options, 1) wait another year or two for you to have 100% of the old features in place or 2) have the option of a less featured 4.0 now knowing that more goods will follow.... then I gladly take 2.
Phil,
What exactly is so compelling to you about 4.0 that you'd take a less feature-filled version of that over 3.0? I ask because right now my inclination would be to wait for the full feature set to come out and continue to use 3.0 until then. In other words, just the opposite of your choice. Perhaps I am missing a good bit here.
I have to agree with you Mark.... there is way too much missing at the moment to make 4.0 a worthy program for public release. Some more work needs to be done in the area of resource management and releasing wthout a highlight/visual markup tool is just really a huge step backwards for this software.. highlight is something that was sorely missing from L1 and L2, we got it L3 and now in L4 it somehow has gone missing....that's like a corner store not having any cold cans of Coca-Cola in the fridge or a pub with no beer.... I'd much rather go through 12 months of beta testing to get some of these basic requirments back in there then see it out the door in 2 months time half baked... yes financial cycles and timing is vital in when Logos releases this thing but if the pub opens with no beer... the patrons may not stay.....and may not get the rave reviews they are expecting once the hype boils down...
To re-iterate how backwards not having hightlight in there is Quick Verse 4.0 offerend hightighting and that would have been maybe 15 years ago and here we are today and Logos 4 doesn't offer any basic highlight option at all.... go figure....
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I have to agree with Phil,
Knowing that certain things are coming; I'm ok with using 4.0.
Do I LOVE my PBBs?
Sure, but they are also available online and searchable generally.
Do I LOVE marking up my text?
Yes! But if that was coming soon, I wouldn't let that be a show stopper.
Do I LOVE my syntax search tools??
YES!! and I'm completely lost on V4's syntax tools....but that will change soon...there's always a learning curve.
For me the speed of searching will make the wait a worthwhile trade off.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Mark A. Smith said:Philip Spitzer said:
If you are saying we have two options, 1)
wait another year or two for you to have 100% of the old features in
place or 2) have the option of a less featured 4.0 now knowing that more goods will follow.... then I gladly take 2.Phil,
What exactly is so compelling to you about 4.0 that you'd take a less feature-filled version of that over 3.0? I ask because right now my inclination would be to wait for the full feature set to come out and continue to use 3.0 until then. In other words, just the opposite of your choice. Perhaps I am missing a good bit here.
My point was not that I would take the option, even though I probably would, but I am saying I'd rather have the option.
Why would I switch? Synchronization, better window layout-ESPECIALLY dual monitor support, reading mode, collection management, more robust library filtering, clippings, image search, library search speed, customizable guides, handouts are nice to have...but I'll have to see what later betas look like to see if their useful to me, reading lists look promising, notes everywhere with better formatting options, simpler hyperlink formats, command bar (I continue to find it more and more useful), tags and favs, search returns topics, reading list, library results, and user content all at one time, simpler morphology selection, biblical things shows promise, I like the way biblical people are displayed now, not crazy about the maps...needs to highlight the found location on the map, layouts are a giant leap forward from workspaces, can't speak to syntax searching--I'm not advanced enough to try that one, reading plan can do books, fonts are easier to adjust, visual filter setup seems much easier to me, NO IE TIE! (don't have to worry about Logos not being able to deliver on past features because MS ruled them out), can rename the books and give them a short name, don't have to type the whole reference to change to a different chapter in the same book, better tab management, the infographics thing shows promise, more options for copying resource locations, search list history, better icons...aka absence of endless icons.
Maybe this list isn't convincing, and I'm sure if I put some more thought into it I could come up with a couple more things. However keep in mind we are only on the 1st beta! we still have the improvements from Phil's initial beta post to look forward to.
Against this I will miss verse lists...temporarily. A little bit more work and I can make about the same thing in a note file till Logos implements it as a tool.I didn't use visual mark-ups enough to cry over them though I will miss them....temporarily. Also the lack of commitment to 3.0 notes and mark-ups causes me concern enough not to invest heavily in the 4.0 notes till I see how Logos will react, I'll probably use onenote.I will miss macros, but once again I'm not sure I really used them enough or see them as necessary in 4.0 yet.
Some can add to this keylinking, and serial associations. I think they will make adequate headway in these categories during the beta process for me, though. Didn't use sentence diagramming.
If this beta were the final release I probably wouldn't switch. too many bugs and hang-ups. But I'm confident in the team to be able to clean this up.
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AndrewMckenzie said:
and Logos 4 doesn't offer any basic highlight option at all.... go figure....
thats not true...placing a note in a biblical text adds highlighting to it. it may not be advanced, but it is basic.
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AndrewMckenzie said:
a pub with no beer
Andrew, I live in the hometown of the pub with no beer. I pass the sign several times every day. Usually to no effect. Now, I've got the song buzzing through my brain....
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No one said this is even close to a public release. It is a BETA, not an RC.
FWIW, I think v4 is fantastic.
Jerry
iMac (2019 model), 3Ghz 6 Core Intel i5, 16gb Ram, Radeon Pro Graphics. 500GB SSD.
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thanks Bob and that would work fine for me... and I would think that it would for nearly everyone if not all. Bob, I saw yesterday that many people had asked if V4 was to be a new stand alone program or an upgrade but this was never totally answered... what can you tell us... is it a libronix lite version?
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Right now as it is in Beta 1 and that is all that we have now, I can not use the program to effectively write my sermon... I have a need for 3 of my old logos books that have not been redone in libronix ( which probably means that they will never be rewriten since it has been so long)... if V4 were out the door today, I would have to continue to use V3. In otherwords, yes maybe we could "get by" with out a few things... but why would you if the old version has it... I would use the old version until the new one had enough funtionality to allow me to effectively work and then I would be happy to switch. V4 is not all bad, and I know that based on what has been said that it will get better, but when will it get to V3 fuctionally? none of us know, but that point will become important as we each have very specific needs for our level of study/work! The person who only writes his sermon once avery 4-6 weeks in a team ministry will have many fewer needs than the pastor who has to write his sermon using Libronix every week becasue he is a sole pastor. I have to write a new sermon each week and would not be able to get by with out as I said three of these tools for any length of time, before I would have to find another way to get at that information... in this case V3. V4 may not have to be 100% to roll out the door, but it will need to be +90% or only new people will be able to get by with it... but when it gets to +90% then the power users will start moving.
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Philip Spitzer said:
Why would I switch? Synchronization, better window layout-ESPECIALLY dual monitor support, reading mode, collection management, more robust library filtering, clippings, image search, library search speed, customizable guides, handouts are nice to have...but I'll have to see what later betas look like to see if their useful to me, reading lists look promising, notes everywhere with better formatting options, simpler hyperlink formats, command bar (I continue to find it more and more useful), tags and favs, search returns topics, reading list, library results, and user content all at one time, simpler morphology selection, biblical things shows promise, I like the way biblical people are displayed now, not crazy about the maps...needs to highlight the found location on the map, layouts are a giant leap forward from workspaces, can't speak to syntax searching--I'm not advanced enough to try that one, reading plan can do books, fonts are easier to adjust, visual filter setup seems much easier to me, NO IE TIE! (don't have to worry about Logos not being able to deliver on past features because MS ruled them out), can rename the books and give them a short name, don't have to type the whole reference to change to a different chapter in the same book, better tab management, the infographics thing shows promise, more options for copying resource locations, search list history, better icons...aka absence of endless icons.
Thanks for the response, Phil. Not to argue, but to observe:
Synchronization: not important to me.
Dual monitor support: I wish
Better window layout. ??? That and your comment about layouts being a leap forward puzzle me. I like the look of 4.0 but don't understand why it is so much better than 3.0.
Reading mode: haven't tried. Will do.
Collection management. ?? It was slow and tedious to create collections in 3.0 but not importing them into 4.0 is a bear! Still takes a while to create collections in 4.0.
Library filtering: HMMM. I pretty much knew what was in my library and could find it, especially if I kept up my collections, but this might be a benefit.
Clippings. Don't know what these are yet, so have to check them out.
Image search. A good addition. Haven't tried it but if it works it is a real plus.
Library search speed. rarely do this in 3.0 so not much of a plus to me.
Customizable guides. Yes, this has been needed for sometime. I've learned to work without this, so I don't know how important this is to me. Savvy new users will probably be glad for it.
Handouts: HMMM. I do that using Word and Publisher now and cutting and pasting, plus SmartTags gives me all I need. New users will probably like this feature.
Reading lists: hate that you have to be online for this, though I usually am.
Notes: My first two tries crashed and I haven't been back to try again. Anything should be an improvement. over 3.0 Unfortunately some of us have waited so long for this we've developed work habits that mean little reliance on Logos notes. Something for me to try, however. What about the lack of importing old note files? I have some really important stuff there with tons of hyperlinks that I'd lose.
Command Bar: seems like a big improvement and will be very handy.
Tags: HMMM. Maybe these will help. Again, good collections and keeping them up would seem to obviate some of the need for these, but i confess I don't fully understand their usefulness.
Favs: ?? Didn't much use that facility in 3.0.
Search returns topics: I done some searches. What are these topics you are referring to? (I've just done Bible searches.)
Biblical things: in the Passage Guide it seems this has taken the place of topics. I'd want something like this but don't yet see the imporvement in this new way of displaying the data.
Biblical people: certainly a bigger offering. Never used them mush, but it should interest some people.
Rename books: Yes. An improvement.
OK, I've probably missed a few points. I appreciate your input. It does, however, only reinforce my feelings about 4.0 and keeping 3.0 for awhile. I will continue to use 4.0 and test it the best I can. I appreciate the opportunity to work with something I am passionate about: Logos Bible Software.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Bob,
I think you guys are doing a fine job. V.4 is a huge step forward, and I think your philosophy is right on - smarter and more intuitive software beats ultra-customizable.
And I can't wait for the bugs to get weeded out of V.4, and this thing hits the shelves.
Mike
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Philip Spitzer said:AndrewMckenzie said:
and Logos 4 doesn't offer any basic highlight option at all.... go figure....
thats not true...placing a note in a biblical text adds highlighting to it. it may not be advanced, but it is basic.
That is not highlighting Phil... ink blotting mabye, but not highlighting.....
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