Logos 4 Philosophy
Comments
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Gordon M Johnson said:
Bob,
I think you guys are doing a fine job. V.4 is a huge step forward, and I think your philosophy is right on - smarter and more intuitive software beats ultra-customizable.
And I can't wait for the bugs to get weeded out of V.4, and this thing hits the shelves.
Mike
I think most of the new stuff they have done is fine also, and yes it is a huge step foward, visually is needs a bit of work, in some place more than a bit, its what they've taken out that's not so fine....but I can't share the sentiment that it is more intuitive software.... quite the opposite..... I really wish I could share that thought because I do appreciate a lot of thought has gone into it....... I'm trying real hard but everytime I fire up this applicaiton I can't figure out how to do things so it just doesn't rate for me on being more intuitive... if this is intuitive please give me logical any day over intuitive.
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AndrewMckenzie said:
I think most of the new stuff they have done is fine also, and yes it is a huge step foward, visually is needs a bit of work, in some place more than a bit, ....... I'm trying real hard but everytime I fire up this applicaiton I can't figure out how to do things so it just doesn't rate for me on being more intuitive... if this is intuitive please give me logical any day over intuitive.
Prioritize is the most important, non-intuitive feature in v4 and Logos expect us to start with a clean slate and populate it with "favourites". Once we start we muck up the whole data type orientation of resource lists presented on the Context menu. My suggestion is that it is populated with up to 5 "favourites" of each resource type in the correct order wrt other types, and according to Logos default prioritization (together with visual cues as has already been suggested) e.g.
- Preferred English Bible
- next ...
- next ...
- Preferred Greek Bible
- next ...
- next ...
- Preferred Hebrew Bible
- next ...
- next ...
- Preferred Greek lexicon
- next ...
- next ...
- Preferred Hebrew/Aramaic lexicon
- next ...
- next ...
- Preferred Commentary
- next ...
- next ...
Elsewhere it has been suggested that it doesn't matter if you mix/interleave say lexicons and bibles, but it does matter if you place commentaries before bibles and click "Reference" on the context menu, because you may only see 5 commentaries when you expected 5 bibles! If you get 5 English bibles you might better understand that you need to come to this list and delete two of them so you see 3 English + 2 Greek bibles, and then promote Hebrew bibles so you see 3 English + 2 Hebrew bibles! If you want to see commentaries then promote them amongst the bibles!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Bob Pritchett said:
If we have the software manage files and you use the interface (in the software or on the web) to mark as hiddren resources you don't want, then A) we can reflect that automatically on any system you want, and in your future web browser access to your books, and
we can even keep a record, so if you change your mind and want the targums later you don't have to call us to find the file names and then visit the FTP to get them, etc. You can just look at the list of hidden resources and check them off again.This is what I mean by Resource Management, because whatever I did manually was because of v3's limitations!
Hiding them as you suggest is very effective as it means L4 will properly remove such resources from the HDD in addition to knowing that I don't want them installed on another machine.
Bob Pritchett said:We do understand the need for choosing the right hard drive to install to, and we'll support that. We'll probably not support putting some books on drive 1, some on drive 2, etc. because in a day of 500 Gig drives that introduces a lot of complexity for little benefit.
My concern was the way v3 manages non-default locations, because I always have to move Updates from the default folder. So v3 maintains two Resource Paths + another one for Sermon Files and compiled PBB's! I only want one Resource Path with the v4 software allowing me to move the resources and Index to a non-default location. I would like v4 to maintain sub-folders, though e.g. for PBB.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
Prioritize is the most important, non-intuitive feature in v4 and Logos expect us to start with a clean slate and populate it with "favourites". Once we start we muck up the whole data type orientation of resource lists presented on the Context menu. My suggestion is that it is populated with up to 5 "favourites" of each resource type in the correct order wrt other types, and according to Logos default prioritization (together with visual cues as has already been suggested) e.g.
Dave,
I've become more convinced of this over the last few days. It's on my rather long list of posts to write.
Obviously, for new packages, the list can easily come pre-populated. For those of us who are installing just the program, I'm not sure how simple this is. What happens to someone who simply buys the Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary and then starts adding other products - which is how I got into Logos back in 1999.
Further, I want the NJB at the top of my list because it's the closest that I can come to the Jerusalem Bible (the lectional bible of the Catholic Church). I want the NRSV because that's been my prayer bible and preferred study translation since 1988. How many would make this choice...
I like the fact that from the very beginning we can set our preferred bible (though I hate being greeted with this every time I visit the home page). What we need when we install the program is a step by step wizard to set up a few preferences. This is how IE8 begins and its a very simple process. (see http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2009/05/09/ie-setup-experience-just-the-facts-and-the-screenshots.aspx for the very extensive list of choices that IE 8.0 users have on first run - its been modified a bit due to user feedback - express choices are now an option).
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Dave Hooton said:
Hiding them as you suggest is very effective as it means L4 will properly remove such resources from the HDD** in addition to knowing that I don't want them installed on another machine.
Dave,
I'm positive that by "Hiding" Bob is not talking about removing these from the HDD but simply from the library and search interfaces of the program. It does not seem that we will be given a choice to permanently delete the files from our computers.
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Bob,
I've been reflecting a great deal on the "philosophy" behind v.4.0 since you wrote this post.
Let me start by saying that I do not consider myself a "power user." I do not use the vast majority of tools in Logos v.30. For a number of years, while doing a Licentiate in Biblical Studies in Rome and the the coursework component of a doctorate in the States, I needed high level semantic tools. But, I tended to use another bible program for these. Today, my biblical studies are reduced to my research for homily preparation and for adult education classes on biblical topics. I use the library feature of Logos more than the biblical studies features.
While I am not a "power user" of any program. I am someone who customises each program as much as possible according to my tastes and needs. I install addons for firefox (as well as changing many of the about:config options), I change the preferences in Word, I look at every option in iTunes to ensure that the program will do what I want it to do within the limits of what the programmer allows. How many do this? I don't know. But firefox has become popular because of the number of addons available. The iPhone is a raging success, in part because it is highly extensible and these extensions are easily installed and configured.
To your "philosophy":
I can't but help feeling that each and every one of your analogies fails because they refer to hardware and Logos is software. While I have no desire to play under the hood of my car or ever crack open another desktop computer to change the video card, I do want to be able to customise the software that runs on my computer and even customise the operating system.
Further, no computer really "just works": I cannot email without first setting up my email program. I can't use iTunes with my iPod until I have synced them and setup those playlists and other elements which I want kept in sync.
I like where 4.0 is headed. I like the home page (with reservations). I like the possibility for keeping my library up to date online (with great reservations). I like the general look and feel.
I just want more control!
Its not all or nothing as your initial post seems to imply - I'm not asking to hard-code xmls. I'm not asking to be able to write javascript programs for the toolbar (though icon selection is a must). I'm not asking to be able to micromanage my library, just to be able to manage it.
I want to be able to happily use v4.0.
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AndrewMckenzie said:
That is not highlighting Phil... ink blotting mabye, but not highlighting.....
Ink blotting would be me physically highlighting my screen :-)
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Damian McGrath said:
I'm positive that by "Hiding" Bob is not talking about removing these from the HDD
I'm pointing out that his suggestion implies that on this side of the cloud! If resources will NOT be installed on another machine how else do you maintain the same state with respect to the Index and resources on your current machine(s)? v3 showed that hiding them through the software was not entirely successful (try hiding a resource and then type its acronym in the Navigation box!). The complexity of doing this with software in v4 is not worth it. Just remove and re-index - I'm prepared to take the hit for stuff I genuinely do not want.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Alex Scott said:
Thanks for the outlook Bob. Much as I like the control etc of the old days, I think you're on the right track. If we settled for the old ways we'd still be in the DOS days. At first I missed using the keyboard short cuts and using the BAT files to speed and simplify everything, but now with mouse and menus etc, one hardly even thinks about it, much less miss all the tinkering and time spent customizing everything. Keep it up. I think you're on the right track for the future. Alex.
I still kind of miss the old DOS platform since I tend to be a command line junkie which is partly why I use keyboard shortcuts as a substitute (I really dislike having to use the mouse for much more than selecting text). One of the things that I miss most in v. 4.0 is the control we had over the morphological search. I've found the morph search in 4.0 to be inadequate. In 3.0 we could select the particular portion of text to be searched -- are you looking for how a particular word is used in one book? You could do that, but it doesn't seem possible in 4.0. Not only so, but it doesn't seem to find everything (sometimes not anything). If I search for the occurances of πέμπω in Revelation (no particular reason for the choice of words, I simply pulled it out of the hat), I get 5 occurances in 3.0 for Revelation. If I narrow the search to aor imv, I get 3 instances. In 4.0 I get 0 in the entire NT even with πέμπω simply indicated as the lemma. Something is obviously wrong. It may be that I haven't gotten the hang to using the morph search in 4.0, but I suspect that isn't the case.
Another thing which I both appreciate and am somewhat uneasy regarding. I never used the home page in 3.0 since I know what I want to study and how to find what I want and therefore don't wish to enter a passage and "Go". I like the newspaper style of the home page in 4.0, but I note that ET phones home each time the program is opened. I haven't yet tried disconnecting from the internet to see what happens if it can't "phone home", but I wonder whether the program will work. I suppose I'm going to have to try it to find out. If I'm required to be connected to "the cloud", I won't be a happy camper. [BTW: Could we have the option of using Windows colors as we could in 3.0?]
Throwing everything into one bucket to let the program sort things out as regards keylink resources seems to work though I still feel uneasy about it. I can envision the program picking the wrong resource for some particular data type. I also miss the option to set the program to lauch a resource on a single click. Why should I need to click on it twice?
We really need to be able to reveal the taskbar without <ctrl-tab> to switch to another program or minimizing Logos.
Supposedly we can choose which lines in an interlinear type text to reveal (I want the text, the text, and nothing but the text -- most certainly not that inane alphabet soup to reveal the morphology), but I haven't been able to do so thus far with Philo. I just tried it with Homer and found that the program became unresponsive and had to be shut down (twice). I just noticed that I'm registering 100% CPU usage. I suppose I'll need to reboot to see whether that solves the problem.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
I still kind of miss the old DOS platform since I tend to be a command line junkie
Which is even more reason to get behind the command line in 4.0. A keyboard shortcut gets you to the command line where you can open files, start a specific search, etc. With the shortcuts of 3.x you could only start a search. Then you still had to tell it what to search for. The command line opens up great possabililites.
George Somsel said:You could do that, but it doesn't seem possible in 4.0.
Sure you can, when you open the search and select morph there is a sentence at the top search all passages...click on all passages and change it to what you want.
George Somsel said:In 4.0 I get 0 in the entire NT even with πέμπω
I could be wrong, but I believe this is a known bug.
George Somsel said:If I'm required to be connected to "the cloud", I won't be a happy camper.
Bob has said in another thread that after setting Logos up you can exist outside the cloud if you want to.
George Somsel said:Throwing everything into one bucket to let the program sort things
Not too crazy about it myself but I'm waiting to see how it develops throughout the beta process before casting final judgement.
George Somsel said:We really need to be able to reveal the taskbar without <ctrl-tab> to switch to another program or minimizing Logos.
I don't seem to have this problem
George Somsel said:Supposedly we can choose which lines in an interlinear type text to reveal
There are some known issues with this. what is displayed is not saved so when you open the program again all are selected. Logos is aware and working on it. Bob hinted that they may allow for multiple interlinear lines as well. I would suggest allowing the whole window to be multiple lines. This would satisfy for the most part those who want the old 3.x way and those who prefer the 4.0 way (which I do)
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Damian McGrath said:
Obviously, for new packages, the list can easily come pre-populated. For those of us who are installing just the program, I'm not sure how simple this is. What happens to someone who simply buys the Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary and then starts adding other products - which is how I got into Logos back in 1999.
It makes no difference. v4 internally prioritises all its resources within data types much as it does in v3, except that v3 made it visible via Tools | Options | Keylink! So the proposed v4 list will only show the resources and resource types that you have! And i don't know how you can have a package without a single (free) Bible!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Philip Spitzer said:George Somsel said:
We really need to be able to reveal the taskbar without <ctrl-tab> to switch to another program or minimizing Logos.
I don't seem to have this problem
And I've got a sack of doughnut holes to put up against your $1 that says you don't hide your taskbar.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Dave Hooton said:
I'm pointing out that his suggestion implies that on this side of the cloud! If resources will NOT be installed on another machine how else do you maintain the same state with respect to the Index and resources on your current machine(s)? v3 showed that hiding them through the software was not entirely successful (try hiding a resource and then type its acronym in the Navigation box!). The complexity of doing this with software in v4 is not worth it. Just remove and re-index - I'm prepared to take the hit for stuff I genuinely do not want.
Maybe we're reading this differently. But my understanding is that all resources will be installed on all machines and will be marked as hidden on all machines. My guess is that whatever v.3's shortcomings in this regard, the hope is that they will indeed be hidden in v.3 and v.4.
Like you, I personally would like to just remove those resources which I do not want.
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George Somsel said:
And I've got a sack of doughnut holes to put up against your $1 that says you don't hide your taskbar.
hummm...doughnut holes...yummy.
you are correct...I do not hide my taskbar. I must have missed where you reported this as a bug. Sorry.
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Dave Hooton said:
And i don't know how you can have a package without a single (free) Bible!
Yes Dave, you're most likely right. I don't know what else comes on those packaged products other than the main resource.
Dave Hooton said:v4 internally prioritises all its resources within data types much as it does in v3, except that v3 made it visible via Tools | Options | Keylink! So the proposed v4 list will only show the resources and resource types that you have!
Yeah, all resources are currently prioritised alphabetically but we don't know for which datatypes unless we add them to the prioritised list and open the advanced pane.
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Philip Spitzer said:
.I do not hide my taskbar. I must have missed where you reported this as a bug. Sorry.
It's been reported a few times:
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/1064.aspx
http://community.logos.com/forums/t/793.aspx
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AndrewMckenzie said:
I think most of the new stuff they have done is fine also, and yes it is a huge step foward, visually is needs a bit of work, in some place more than a bit, its what they've taken out that's not so fine.
Well said Andrew, i salute you. There is a lot i like about V4 but it is what has been left out of V4 from V3 that is the problem. Some think to reference V3 is to say V4 is rubbish( to right it off) or to say one disapproves of V4, that is not the case! Logos success is also ours. I thank Logos for the hard work they have put into V4 & wanting to make it a success. They are going in the right direction, and we all want to see that V4 succeed. Be encouraged Logos. Thanks.Ted.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Dear Bob and Logos,
As a pastor of the the same church for 15 years (and the only church I have ever pastored), I have been able to see God's hand at work in re-energizing a congregation of 70 sr. adults, to a congregation of 350+ with multiple generations serving God together.
We have HAD to make changes, and not everyone was happy, and we lost some folk who couldn't get over the changes (new buildings, new leadership, etc.).
On a personal level, its not easy.
I just want to say that your ATTITUDE is a breath of fresh air. You have a heart to listen to the individual while at the same time seeking to develop a PRODUCT that makes BIBLE STUDY more effective and effecient for the BULK of your users.
Your responses have been gracious and I have, for one, have noticed, and am grateful.
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Damian McGrath said:
Yeah, all resources are currently prioritised alphabetically but we don't know for which datatypes unless we add them to the prioritised list and open the advanced pane.
See http://community.logos.com/forums/p/1252/10049.aspx#10049 !!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Bob Pritchett said:
I'm sorry we weren't clear. We ABSOLUTELY intend to support both PBB and SermonFile in a future release. The problem is that PBB in particular uses Internet Explorer for its format and for display. And you've all made it clear how you felt about our reliance on IE, :-), so we need to do some serious work to re-do PBB.
This work will take some time, and the big open question is whether or not we can intelligently and automatically conver the HTML in existing PBB's to our core display engine, and whether or not the inevitable incompatibilities will be acceptable or if we'll need to require them to be rebulit. (My guess is it'll be worth rebuilding/recompiling them.)
The good news is future PBB titles will be built using the exact same format/engine as books we offer, meaning you will get infinitely scrolling books and other important features.
We also intend to have an easy way to share your PBB books with others via the web, but that takes so more code on the server side.
YIPPEE!!! Happy Dance...
May I suggest that there be two ways to do this.
1) Make it as easy as possible for creators of PBB's to create the new format.
2) Have a way to import old lbxoeb files for those files where the creator is no longer active. Logically, this would be a part of the whole library import and indexing process. It would be great if this code could offer to DL the new files if you (Logos) know about them instead of converting them on the fly, but this could be considerable work for you, unfortunately.
Ken McGuire
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
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Ted Hans said:Well said Andrew, i salute you. There is a lot i like about V4 but it is what has been left out of V4 from V3 that is the problem. Some think to reference V3 is to say V4 is rubbish( to right it off) or to say one disapproves of V4, that is not the case! Logos success is also ours. I thank Logos for the hard work they have put into V4 & wanting to make it a success. They are going in the right direction, and we all want to see that V4 succeed. Be encouraged Logos. Thanks.
I'm not about to write of 4.0, but unless and until they get the morphology search and a few other items fixed it will be of no use to me other than as a platform to read certain books in my collection. It is useless for serious study at this point.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George,
I'm hoping that this is a priority.
Without syntax and morphology searching; Logos is just a glorified Kindle.
This type of searching is what sets Logos apart from the competition!
Any of the free bible software packages can do stupid searches, or allow you to read your electronic bible or bring up a commentary alongside....
But the searching is why I paid the dough....to get LOGOS.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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George Somsel said:Ted Hans said:Well said Andrew, i salute you. There is a lot i like about V4 but it is what has been left out of V4 from V3 that is the problem. Some think to reference V3 is to say V4 is rubbish( to right it off) or to say one disapproves of V4, that is not the case! Logos success is also ours. I thank Logos for the hard work they have put into V4 & wanting to make it a success. They are going in the right direction, and we all want to see that V4 succeed. Be encouraged Logos. Thanks.
I'm not about to write of 4.0, but unless and until they get the morphology search and a few other items fixed it will be of no use to me other than as a platform to read certain books in my collection. It is useless for serious study at this point.
Hi George,
Great to hear from you & greetings. I agree with you mate, i am glad someone of your calibre in the original language is commenting on the inadequacies of V4.George Somsel said:It is useless for serious study at this point.
Not to make light of your point which i agree with. However i am glad you did not write in Auf Deutsch, natürlich! [Swahili, of course!]
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Philip Spitzer said:AndrewMckenzie said:
That is not highlighting Phil... ink blotting mabye, but not highlighting.....
Ink blotting would be me physically highlighting my screen :-)
with a very fine nib.......Its as effective as ink blotting though regardless of the nib
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George Somsel said:Philip Spitzer said:George Somsel said:
We really need to be able to reveal the taskbar without <ctrl-tab> to switch to another program or minimizing Logos.
I don't seem to have this problem
And I've got a sack of doughnut holes to put up against your $1 that says you don't hide your taskbar.
I use the windows key to access taskbar, easier than ALT-TAB..... windows key might prove a problem for MAC users though using a windows emulator....
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George et al,
Somewhere along the way it seems people are forgetting two things:
- This is a beta
- This is the *first* beta
Logos knows there are things that need fixing, enhancing, etc, but to even begin to talk about writing-off Logos 4 is somewhat odd at this stage of things. Be patient, submit feedback, continue to use Logos 3 for your work, and wait and watch as things progress.
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Andrew,
The Apple/Command key on a Mac is the same as a Windows key on a PC so the trick still works and is what I've been doing to pull up the taskbar.0 -
Damian McGrath said:Dave Hooton said:
And i don't know how you can have a package without a single (free) Bible!
Yes Dave, you're most likely right. I don't know what else comes on those packaged products other than the main resource.
Dave Hooton said:v4 internally prioritises all its resources within data types much as it does in v3, except that v3 made it visible via Tools | Options | Keylink! So the proposed v4 list will only show the resources and resource types that you have!
Yeah, all resources are currently prioritised alphabetically but we don't know for which datatypes unless we add them to the prioritised list and open the advanced pane.
To work with this we need a view that allows us to show all resources of a certain dataytype and we need and adavanced view on the 'new' about resource which can shows us everything about the book its datatypes and searchability....the 'new' about resource page is about as useful as an advertisement on Amazon, the power of what one can do with all the work Logos has put into it behind the scenes is now hidden.
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Chris Roberts said:
George et al,
Somewhere along the way it seems people are forgetting two things:
- This is a beta
- This is the *first* beta
Logos knows there are things that need fixing, enhancing, etc, but to even begin to talk about writing-off Logos 4 is somewhat odd at this stage of things. Be patient, submit feedback, continue to use Logos 3 for your work, and wait and watch as things progress.
Yes! Ditto, Chis.
Jerry
iMac (2019 model), 3Ghz 6 Core Intel i5, 16gb Ram, Radeon Pro Graphics. 500GB SSD.
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Chris Roberts said:
George et al,
Somewhere along the way it seems people are forgetting two things:
- This is a beta
- This is the *first* beta
Logos knows there are things that need fixing, enhancing, etc, but to even begin to talk about writing-off Logos 4 is somewhat odd at this stage of things. Be patient, submit feedback, continue to use Logos 3 for your work, and wait and watch as things progress.
I don't think that anyone has forgotten those facts. It is precisely because this is a beta that we are pointing out problems and indicating their importance. Without original language searching which WORKS Logos is only better than print books by not requiring shelf space. Of course I'm continuing to use 3.0, did you think I was going to quit working?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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