EBNE Shipping 10/6 - More detail, please!
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Ben, that looks great. Excited to have mine download soon.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Mark Barnes said:
BTW: I presume you know the TOC for media is very incomplete?
Thanks, Mark. We're going to tidy that up before it ships.
Senior Director, Content Products
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Ben, I notice that with the online edition of EB that they have a multitude of internal links. These don't appear in the Noet edition you posted. will they simply not be present? They certainly are helpful in alerting a reader to additionnal information that can be found in the encyclopedia.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Mark Smith said:
Ben, I notice that with the online edition of EB that they have a multitude of internal links. These don't appear in the Noet edition you posted. will they simply not be present? They certainly are helpful in alerting a reader to additional information that can be found in the encyclopedia.
Good question. There are internal links that take you to other articles as well as to various media related to the topic.
Senior Director, Content Products
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Ben Amundgaard said:
At long last! Here you go
Thank you, Ben! I am pleased with what I see in the sample page.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Thank you, Ben. I notice one such internal link in the section you showed. In the online article there might have been a dozen or more in that same selection (the selections do differ quite a bit). References to Continental Congress, Braintree, Quincy, Adams family, Worchester, Puritan, New England, Abigail Smith, and many more are linked back to EB articles. This quickly gives an idea of the scope of the encyclopedia, and provides an easy way to navigate within it.
Will these be missing in the Noet edition or do they just not appear in the edition you showed us?
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Mark Smith said:
Will these be missing in the Noet edition or do they just not appear in the edition you showed us?
Good question. I'll have to dig into that a bit further. If/when I find something I'll post it here.
Senior Director, Content Products
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Mark Smith said:
Will these be missing in the Noet edition or do they just not appear in the edition you showed us?
We only tagged explicit internal references (e.g. "see also ...").
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Kyle G. Anderson said:Mark Smith said:
Will these be missing in the Noet edition or do they just not appear in the edition you showed us?
We only tagged explicit internal references (e.g. "see also ...").
Seems like the online edition used the TOC and whenever a reference was found to something in the TOC it was tagged. Sounds like that could be automated and while it might take some time, it would expand the value of the encyclopedia. It's one way electronic resources are more than just copies of their paper originals (where the type of tagging you refer to might be printed on the page). In the online version we see much more tagging of the sort that would simply be intrusive in a print version, but adds value to having an electronic version.
Do you suppose this could be done?
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Mark Smith said:
Seems like the online edition used the TOC and whenever a reference was found to something in the TOC it was tagged. Sounds like that could be automated and while it might take some time, it would expand the value of the encyclopedia. It's one way electronic resources are more than just copies of their paper originals (where the type of tagging you refer to might be printed on the page). In the online version we see much more tagging of the sort that would simply be intrusive in a print version, but adds value to having an electronic version.
Do you suppose this could be done?
Ben, thank you for the sample - it was quite helpful, as has been the discussion since. I agree with Mark's thoughts on the nature and value of digital resources, and his request for at least TOC-based hyperlinks. Based on the original description, I anticipated an abundance of linked material, and regarded it as EBNE's greatest value. But if TOC items are not tagged items, this is close to a Vryso e-book resource (with additional media, of course). If this is the current stage of development, I respectfully suggest Noet consider a later ship date. I have seen this with other Logos resources that were close to shipping, then moved back to enhance them (Pre-Pub https://www.logos.com/product/16088/the-works-of-charles-hodge comes to mind). All interested users are pulling for this to be an integrated introduction & study guide for many subjects; and we wish you well. Please do not settle for less than complete development.
Grace and peace. <><
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I do believe Ben said there is more stuff to come and it was his call to release it early and incomplete. I for one am grateful he made that call.
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Robert said:
All interested users are pulling for this to be an integrated introduction & study guide for many subjects; and we wish you well. Please do not settle for less than complete development.
Well said.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matt Hamrick said:
there is more stuff to come and it was his call to release it early and incomplete. I for one am grateful he made that call.
Me too, though I would certainly vote for the suggestion that the "more to come" includes more links to TOC entries, especially since Logos does similar type tagging in most of their other top dictionaries/encyclopedias. And I agree that this is the very thing that make them so valuable over paper.
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Mark Smith said:
Thank you, Ben. I notice one such internal link in the section you showed. In the online article there might have been a dozen or more in that same selection (the selections do differ quite a bit). References to Continental Congress, Braintree, Quincy, Adams family, Worchester, Puritan, New England, Abigail Smith, and many more are linked back to EB articles. This quickly gives an idea of the scope of the encyclopedia, and provides an easy way to navigate within it.
Will these be missing in the Noet edition or do they just not appear in the edition you showed us?
All these sorts of hyperlinks would be great. I hope that FL will be able to add in these sorts of internal links at some point after the EBNE ships.
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I am curious if I downloaded all the media files and the main file gets updated does that mean I have to renown load the media files. I hope the answer is no but would like to hear it for sure.
Dan
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From the screenshot you can see that media and articles are two distinct resources. That means, they update separately.
But I do hope for an even more granular update process that doesn't require to update the entire media file when a few images get updated.
I'm gonna be extremely happy when the initial 3 gig download will be complete, and hope that I won't have to squeeze it through that ever too overloaded cable over the Pacific Ocean a second time...
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Jan Krohn said:
But I do hope for an even more granular update process that doesn't require to update the entire media file when a few images get updated.
Videos are stored online and downloaded on demand, so they won't all get replaced if a few images get updated.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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I'm glad the sample was helpful to everyone.
Can I just clarify that when y'all are referring to TOC links you mean that every time a word listed in the TOC is mentioned in another article you'd like it to link back to the article on that word? So, e.g., every time aardvark is mentioned in another article it would link back to the article on aardvarks?
I don't have any further info at this point, I just want to make sure we're all on the same page (or at least that I'm on the same page with y'all [;)]).
Senior Director, Content Products
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Ben Amundgaard said:
every time a HEADWORD is mentioned in another article it would link back to the HEADWORD's article
Yes, that is at least what I meant, and assume what Mark and the others meant as well.
*HEADWORD added in place of aardvark
like Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels does for example...
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*Correction*
Only the Links marked with an * actually link to headwords in the same resource. The others link to the Pocket Dictionary of Theological Terms
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Yes, Ben, that's what I was hoping for. Since I don't have an actual electronic edition to check what I saw online against, it is possible that what I'd really like would take more work. For example, suppose Nebuchadnezzar (the name we know him by in the Bible) was referenced, but the EB has the article on him under Kings of Assyria (or another major heading) I'd really like to be able to have a link to the article on Nebuchadnezzar. That would be a bit more complicated to do. TOC linking would be the minimum I'd hope to see.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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The Essential IVP Reference Collection is a great example of linking done well. The work done for this group of resources has established a standard against which I personally evaluate other resources in my Faithlife libraries.
"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963
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EBNE ships...today! [Y] But Providence dictates that I can't sit down at my primary computer for a couple of days - so I look forward to the feedback and initial impressions of my fellow users. [H] Thanks in advance for your thoughts and info as you explore and evaluate this huge resource - and have fun!
Grace and peace. <><
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I find it a bit disappointing, no entries for Muggletonians or Fifth Monarchy Men and for Bede it mentions some of his books but they are not linked.
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Mike Pettit said:
I find it a bit disappointing, no entries for Muggletonians or Fifth Monarchy Men and for Bede it mentions some of his books but they are not linked.
This is Britannica, if they have no entry FL cannot add it and it was stated earlier on internal links to the Encyclopedia would be there but not external ones, at least at first.
-Dan
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Mine is downloading now. Looking forward to exploring it.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Dan Francis said:Mike Pettit said:
I find it a bit disappointing, no entries for Muggletonians or Fifth Monarchy Men and for Bede it mentions some of his books but they are not linked.
This is Britannica, if they have no entry FL cannot add it and it was stated earlier on internal links to the Encyclopedia would be there but not external ones, at least at first.
-Dan
Britannica does have entries, but they have been excluded from the cut down version that FL sells. This was one of the worries which has sadly materialised.
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Initially disappointed here [:O]
I went to the Israel EBNE article and there are virtually no pictures (in the whole article on Israel there are only 2 poor images).
Not even a map of Israel (today's map could be useful).Below is what i see on Britannica's website:
Below is what EBNE shows:
Plus there are no videos on Israel in the EBNE media resource.
Perhaps i still need to figure the EBNE out???
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Certainly understand frustration but I think Faithlife will state that this can't be compared to other versions of Britannica, it is a unique resource, and I think the benefits of an integrated version will be appreciated within Logos searches etc. If we wanted every thing Britannica has, we'd have to trade off the Logos functionality, as others have pointed out. Either we would not own it, like the $60/month Britannica online. or we'd be switching DVDs to see all the content. The NOET addition is a compromise to achieve what most users probably want. Own it, manageable size, affordable price.
IMO they will have delivered that, when all updates are done.
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Mike Pettit said:Dan Francis said:Mike Pettit said:
I find it a bit disappointing, no entries for Muggletonians or Fifth Monarchy Men and for Bede it mentions some of his books but they are not linked.
This is Britannica, if they have no entry FL cannot add it and it was stated earlier on internal links to the Encyclopedia would be there but not external ones, at least at first.
-Dan
Britannica does have entries, but they have been excluded from the cut down version that FL sells. This was one of the worries which has sadly materialised.
That is disappointing, and internal links seem missing now... I opened for example the article on Hank Aaron, and Babe Ruth was not linked. I know we were told all links would not be there at first, but this seems a very poor preliminary release if whole articles are missing.
-Dan
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Mike Pettit said:
I find it a bit disappointing, no entries for Muggletonians or Fifth Monarchy Men and for Bede it mentions some of his books but they are not linked.
Personally I'm not disappointed by that at all. For me the whole benefit of EBNE is to get articles on secular topics that aren't covered anywhere else in my library. For biblical/theological topics you probably already have resources that cover the topic in more depth than EBNE would. For example, there are articles on the Muggletonians in the New International Dictionary of the Christian Church, The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, and a lengthy article in Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics, Volumes I–XIII. Then there's the Wikipedia tool, or my Dictionary of Christianity and the Bible, of course.
I'm more disappointed that history is generally very poorly served and it's very American (odd for the Encylopaedia Britannica). There's no entry for Caligula, for example. It's very disappointing he's should be pushed out by such notables as Simon Cowell and Roy R. Romer.
Don't get me wrong, I do think this is worth $100. But it will serve Noet users fairly poorly, I think.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
Personally I'm not disappointed by that at all. For me the whole benefit of EBNE is to get articles on secular topics that aren't covered anywhere else in my library.
As I said I do not expect EBNE to go beyond print/online versions. That said Mike says and I have no reason to doubt him, these articles are in the EB so should be in Noet edition. I too felt like you and was thinking these religious topics would not be in the EB, however I will wait to hear from FL before being too disappointed.
-Dan
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Dan Francis said:
As I said I do not expect EBNE to go beyond print/online versions. That said Mike says and I have no reason to doubt him, these articles are in the EB so should be in Noet edition. I too felt like you and was thinking these religious topics would not be in the EB, however I will wait to hear from FL before being too disappointed.
The Noet edition was advertised as being a subset of the full edition. I had assumed it would be the subset most useful to those studying the classics, but I was wrong.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Ben Amundgaard said:
The initial estimate for the file size is 260 mb
This appears to be the size of the EBNE that i downloaded today.
But you later said that it would be...
Ben Amundgaard said:I should have waited to get better data before giving that stat. It's going to be more like 3 gigs.
Are we to expect a significant update? Or was your updated size to include all the downloadable media?
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Yes , I expect more articles and links!
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steve clark said:
Are we to expect a significant update? Or was your updated size to include all the downloadable media?
That is the size of it with all media downloaded.
-Dan
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Mark Barnes said:
The Noet edition was advertised as being a subset of the full edition. I had assumed it would be the subset most useful to those studying the classics, but I was wrong.
I may have missed something but I just reread the product page and see no indication that it was a subset... I mean there possibly are hints.. 19,000 articles maybe a subset but if say there are 30,000 articles how are we to know only a percentage of the articles are included? I fully understand limiting the amount of media and pictures to essential, but not the excising of articles.
-Dan
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Dan Francis said:
say there are 30,000 articles how are we to know only a percentage of the articles are included?
According to the EB iPad APP it has over 80,000 articles, making the the Noet Edition seem more than a little weak, containing less than 1/4 of the articles (possible Faithlife defence is this 80,000 including things like Tabby, see house cat, if there are 61,000 header articles simply directing you to the actual article, that makes sense to only 19,000 articles, but the number seems unlikely to be the case).
-Dan
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There are 40,000 articles in the last print edition, and 100,000 in the last digital edition. I was thinking of the discussion here: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/100978.aspx, rather than the product page.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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EBNE videos are now available for IOS Devices.
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Mark Barnes said:
I'm more disappointed that history is generally very poorly served and it's very American (odd for the Encylopaedia Britannica). There's no entry for Caligula, for example. It's very disappointing he's should be pushed out by such notables as Simon Cowell and Roy R. Romer.
Don't get me wrong, I do think this is worth $100. But it will serve Noet users fairly poorly, I think.
I agree. I compared it to the Columbia Encyclopedia (CE) which I have in Logos (but which is no longer sold). The article structure, sentence length, and vocabulary in EBNE indicate that it is aimed more squarely at grade school children than general users (which would be the case if it is a repackaged Compton's).
I think it's funny how an article on church and state starts with President John Kennedy.
EBNE is 4 times as large as CE (275MB vs. 71MB). Some of that come from the pictures, which the Columbia doesn't have. Much of the additional text material is given to American history, recent history and pop-culture biography (athletes and actors). Some of the Columbia articles are actually longer than their counterpart in EBNE.
Here's another comparison:
CE has entries for both church as a gathering of people and as a building. EBNE only defines it as a building.
CE is never going to be updated. CE isn't available on mobile. And new users can't get CE, so the only choice for new users is EBNE.
EBNE might be useful for my kids to use, especially since it has media and works on mobile. But they may move quickly past its usefulness as they move into high school.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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You can also check this thread. (I've commented pretty clearly there.)
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Todd Phillips said:
The article structure, sentence length, and vocabulary in EBNE indicate that it is aimed more squarely at grade school children than general users (which would be the case if it is a repackaged Compton's).
Before Britannica bought Comptons they published Britannica Junior. I wonder if that is what we got.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I see the discussion now this is a bit disappointing.. as pointed out in that discussion one can purchase the full thing for about $60 US, I will look things over the next few weeks and decide if I want to keep it..Mark Barnes said:There are 40,000 articles in the last print edition, and 100,000 in the last digital edition. I was thinking of the discussion here: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/100978.aspx, rather than the product page.
-Dan0 -
I'm pretty sure now it's this kid's edition:
I created a trial account with a fake address, and compared three full articles. EBNE is identical, just less links and less pictures.
Feel free to use my trial account and look for yourself. I don't need it any more...
User: RobertaJBall@armyspy.com
Password: jeeYio9s
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Yes, it would appear that we've been sold some version of their children's encyclopedia. I went online and compared the the Student Encyclopedia (Ages 11-14) article on Karl Marx with the EBNE version and found the text was the same: a text so concise it borders on silliness. The last line made me chuckle: "Marx did not concern himself much with practical problems but concentrated only on the revolution itself."
Logos had plenty of time to give us a look at the content in advance, rather than just a screen shot a few days before launch. May I go back to my comment about "smoke and mirrors" now? Or am I just being a conspiracy theorist again?
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Jan Krohn said:
I'm pretty sure now it's this kid's edition:
Wow, if that is true that is very unexpected and disappointing!
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Bruce Dunning said:Jan Krohn said:
I'm pretty sure now it's this kid's edition:
Wow, if that is true that is very unexpected and disappointing!
I guess I'm the target audience for this product, because I am not disappointed by that. One of the main reasons I ordered this is because I thought it would be a great resource for my elementary school age children to use where I wouldn't have to worry about them relying on places like Wikipedia. The bonus was that it would fill out the timeline for me and add lots of media.
I can understand why others are disappointed, though.
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Will come in handy for my children.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Average Joe said:
a great resource for my elementary school age children to use
When doing scholarly research, that is not what Logos/Noet users would go to for authoritative answers to classical/secular/historical questions. Which is what it seems we all thought we'd be getting.
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