Going deeper into Revelation
I am a layman and would to know more about revelation. I have a fair knowledge about it but, would like to know it well enough to teach it. I have portfolio as for resources but, are there any outside tools Logos that would help. In short I would like to dig out those gold nuggets and really don’t how.
Thanks a lot
Sam West
Comments
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Sam West said:
I am a layman and would to know more about revelation. I have a fair knowledge about it but, would like to know it well enough to teach it. I have portfolio as for resources but, are there any outside tools Logos that would help. In short I would like to dig out those gold nuggets and really don’t how.
Hi Sam
The starting point might be to become familiar with the major interpretative approaches that have been used. You probably already have one way you approach the book, but my suggestion would be to become so familiar with the other approaches that you can say "Ok, I see how that got to that view" even if you don't agree with them. There are several resources that do that.
Next, you could work through the book using some of the more academic commentaries you have. Beale's NIGTC is supurb, especially in recognizing how the OT phrases feed into the text. Roleff's (Continental series) surprised me. Grant's BECNT is well-weighed. And Fee's New Covenant series asks some very good questions in it's introduction. Aune's WBC is huge and I think he places a bit too much emphasis on non-Jewish sources, but still worth reading. And Bratcher's UBS handbook is good when you're stuck about how to translate a phrase into our culture. Among the less technical/detailed commentaries, I appreciated Wilcock's The Message of Rev (BST) and Wright's Rev for Everyone.
But the most important thing might be to look for Jesus in the book. Ultimately it is a revelation of Jesus as the culmination of the entire biblical narrative, so as look as you are focused on him you'll get the core.
HTH.
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Allen Browne said:
There are several resources that do that.
such as...
https://www.logos.com/product/2271/revelation-four-views
and...
https://www.logos.com/product/16628/four-views-on-the-book-of-revelation
for starters :-)
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Here's a list by www.Ligonier.org of the top 5 commentary suggestions on Revelation.
1. Stephen S. Smalley — The Revelation to John (2005).
I include Stephen Smalley’s commentary on Revelation in this Top 5 list because I believe his view of the dating of the book is essentially correct. In his commentary, and more fully in his book Thunder and Love, Smalley argues that the book was written in the reign of Vespasian (AD 69-79), just before the fall of Jerusalem to Titus in AD 70. As I explain in my own book, this view of the date of Revelation fits very well with several pieces of evidence, including what John writes in Rev. 17:9-11. I cannot wholeheartedly recommend this commentary as the best, however, because I differ with Smalley’s interpretive approach. Despite the fact that his view of the book’s date lends itself to a basically preterist view, Smalley follows Beale in taking a modified idealist approach. I agree with Bauckham that it is a very serious mistake to understand the images of Revelation as timeless symbols. It would be the same as if we were to interpret Jeremiah’s very specific prophecies about the coming destruction of Judah by Babylon in an idealist manner. John’s book is also a prophecy, and like Jeremiah, it too has a specific historical context.
2. G.K. Beale — The Book of Revelation (New International Greek Testament Commentary, 1999).
Many Reformed and evangelical scholars argue that Beale has written the best available contemporary commentary on Revelation. In many respects, it is outstanding. Beale’s commentary is the place to turn for insight on the many Old Testament allusions and echoes in the book of Revelation. My fundamental reservation about the book has to do with Beale’s modified idealist approach. Revelation is a prophecy (1:3; 19:10; 22:7, 10, 18, 19). We do not interpret Old Testament prophetic books in an idealist manner. They were written to specific people in a specific time and place, often referring to specific imminent judgments and promising a time of restoration in the distant future. Revelation is very similar in that it is dealing with the imminent destruction of Jerusalem and the restoration that will take place at the consummation. To interpret it in an idealist manner is to decontextualize it. In spite of this, Beale’s commentary contains a wealth of information and should be consulted by any serious student of Scripture.
3. David E. Aune — Revelation 1-5; Revelation 6-16, and Revelation 17-22 (Word Biblical Commentary, 1997, 1998, 1998).
David Aune’s massive commentary on the book of Revelation is another that should be consulted by every serious student of Scripture. The strongest point of Aune’s commentary is the amount of information it contains regarding relevant extrabiblical literature that sheds light on the historical context. Regarding the date of the book, Aune takes a slightly complicated view. He believes the book went through stages of composition. He argues that Revelation 1:7 -12a and 4:1 - 22:5 were probably composed around AD 70, but he believes the final edition of the book was put together during the reign of Trajan (AD 98-117). The primary problem with this commentary, however, is that it loses sight of the forest for all the trees. Aune is very helpful with the details of the text and the details of extrabiblical literature. He is not as helpful when it comes to the point of understanding what the book means, its message and theology. He looks closely at the brush strokes, but he looks so closely that he can’t see the big picture.
4. George Eldon Ladd — A Commentary on the Revelation of John (1972).
Some readers may be surprised that I would recommend Ladd’s commentary since Ladd is an historic premillennialist. Despite differing with Ladd’s millennial view, I believe his commentary still contains a wealth of interpretive insight. Ladd describes his interpretive approach as a blending of the preterist and futurist methods, which means that he recognizes the relevance of the immediate historical context. His dating of the book during the reign of Domitian, late in the first century, causes some problems, but this classic commentary is still worth consulting.
5. Grant R. Osborne — Revelation (Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament, 2002).
Like Ladd, Osborne is a premillennialist, and like several recent authors, he takes an eclectic approach to the book of Revelation. In Osborne’s case, he takes an eclectic approach with an emphasis on the futurist position. Osborne’s commentary is particularly helpful in providing historical background information on the people, places, and things mentioned in the biblical text. Like most commentators, Grant too easily dismisses the arguments for an early date of the book, but the commentary is still well worth consulting.
Runners Up:
There are a number of other helpful commentaries on the Book of Revelation including those by Robert Mounce, Ben Witherington, G.B. Caird, Craig Keener,Leon Morris, William Hendriksen, Simon Kistemaker, Vern Poythress, and Dennis Johnson. If you can locate a copy, David Clark has written a basically preterist commentary on Revelation entitled The Message From Patmos.
Although it is not a commentary, I would be remiss if I did not mention the classic little book by Richard Bauckham titled The Theology of the Book of Revelation. If you are interested in understanding Revelation, Bauckham’s book is a must-read. Bauckham also contributed the commentary on Revelation to The Oxford Bible Commentary edited by Barton and Muddiman.
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Sam West said:
I am a layman and would to know more about revelation. I have a fair knowledge about it but, would like to know it well enough to teach it. I have portfolio as for resources but, are there any outside tools Logos that would help. In short I would like to dig out those gold nuggets and really don’t how.
Thanks a lot
Sam West
I would advise paying no attention to the many commentaries on Revelation since virtually all proceed from a mistaken premise. Ever since
Victorinus of Pettau the study of the book has essentially been on the wrong track. There are two main problems: (1) Interpreters insist on referring all martyrs wherever mentioned as referencing the Church. (2) Victorinus' main misleading point is considering all of the judgments as being final judgments so that the various sections are repetitions of one another which leads to a structure somewhat like a dog chasing its tail. This is a rather bizarre way to read any book. Little or no attention has been paid to the structure of the book as a whole, and many small details are treated as no more than window dressing (such as the dimensions of the New Jerusalem).
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
[pay] no attention to the many commentaries on Revelation since virtually all proceed from a mistaken premise
Precisely why you need to...
Allen Browne said:become so familiar with the other approaches that you can say "Ok, I see how that got to that view" even if you don't agree with them.
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James Taylor said:George Somsel said:
[pay] no attention to the many commentaries on Revelation since virtually all proceed from a mistaken premise
Precisely why you need to...
Only if you want to be confused.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
Only if you want to be confused.
Represented in the commentaries above is scholarship that has been tested and tried. Some arrive at different conclusions, and have different starting points, but nevertheless they will bring one face to face with the issues and the scholarly opinions concerning those issues. We ought not to hide from possible confusion, but persistently keep seeking for more clarity.
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James Taylor said:George Somsel said:
Only if you want to be confused.
Represented in the commentaries above is scholarship that has been tested and tried. Some arrive at different conclusions, and have different starting points, but nevertheless they will bring one face to face with the issues and the scholarly opinions concerning those issues. We ought not to hide from possible confusion, but persistently keep seeking for more clarity.
I would agree with you if we were speaking of a seasoned biblical scholar, but I get the impression we are talking of a neophyte. In that case, it's better that he simply read and re-read the text.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George, are there any books/commentaries in Logos that you would recommend on the subject? I ask because I've seen you mention similar things in the past but am not sure exactly what you mean.
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George Somsel said:
I get the impression we are talking of a neophyte.
Yes, he said he is a layman, but also that he "would like to know it well enough to teach it." And I'm sure you'd agree "a neophyte" needs more (particularly historical/background resources) than just reading and re-reading before he teaches a class on the book, though that is also absolutely necessary.
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Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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Rick said:
George, are there any books/commentaries in Logos that you would recommend on the subject? I ask because I've seen you mention similar things in the past but am not sure exactly what you mean.
St Augustine The City of God. <logosres:npnf02;ref=Augustine.De_civ._Dei_1>. While there are a number of works which are helpful with various passages, there is none which I would recommend regarding the structure and meaning of the book.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Thank you.
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James Taylor said:
1. Stephen S. Smalley — The Revelation to John (2005).
For those interested in Smalley’s The Revelation to John (SPCK: 2005) we have it on Pre-Pub and in production at the moment. I’m checking on a timeline for its completion today.
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Matthew Miller said:James Taylor said:
1. Stephen S. Smalley — The Revelation to John (2005).
For those interested in Smalley’s The Revelation to John (SPCK: 2005) we have it on Pre-Pub and in production at the moment. I’m checking on a timeline for its completion today.
Great! This is one I've been waiting on for a long time.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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One of my favorites is John MacArthur's 2 Volume commentary on Revelation but that isn't on Logos
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Mattillo said:
One of my favorites is John MacArthur's 2 Volume commentary on Revelation but that isn't on Logos
https://vyrso.com/product/40319/because-the-time-is-near-john-macarthur-explains-the-book-of-revelation, from MacArthur, is available in Vyrso
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The wildest what I've seen is http://www.amazon.com/Revelation-Bernhard-Philberth/dp/0646208373 where Revelation is seen as an allegory of a nuclear war.
But otherwise, I try to find out the Old Testament background, currently I am reading https://www.logos.com/product/40883/the-revelation-of-st-john
Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11
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My recommendation would be that you start with your pastor, or your denomination. You likely already know that there are several ways to interpret end times Scriptures, as well as several different theological systems or constructs that have been developed. My assumption would be that you would want to be able to teach the book in your church/denomination, so you probably want to start with what he/they would recommend.
As far as Commentaries, I would NOT recommend either Beale's NIGTC commentary, or Aune's Word commentary. Both are good, but both are written by scholars, for scholars. As such, they are original language (meaning, Greek) intensive, and spend significant time interacting with other scholars' opinions. These are all good things, but make them pretty tough to really use for most lay-people, even those who are pretty sharp and fairly well informed. My opinion.
For someone in your situation, I would recommend Patterson's New American Commentary on Revelation, Mounce's New International Commentary on Revelation. Both are well regarded commentaries (not watered down, or dumbed down), both are solid scholars, and they are written in a format that will probably fit your situation pretty well.
For what it's worth.
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I enjoyed Revelation for everyone by NT Wright, it was somewhat light but very good I thought.
I also enjoyed Coming Soon: Unlocking the Book of Revelation and Applying Its Lessons Today by MIchael Barber, who I really enjoy and find very thorough. He also is very good at tying his writings in the NT to the OT/Jewish roots.
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Until the end of the month, Faithlife is offering the Sacra Pagina commentary on Revelation for free.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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To teach a book like Revelation, it will be important to have a grounding in biblical prophecy in general; towards that end, John Walvoord's The Prophecy Knowledge Handbook is a good place to start.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
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Thank you Graham. Have you read that book? It seems like it would be an abbreviated Revelation commentary
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I agree with Beloved and that is a good book. A good understanding of Daniel and Zechariah helps as well
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SineNomine said:
Until the end of the month, Faithlife is offering the Sacra Pagina commentary on Revelation for free.
Thank you for reminding us about that one.
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Is not in logos but "the avenging of the apostles and prophets" by Arthur Ogden is a good commentary on Revelation
DAL
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Mattillo said:
Thank you Graham. Have you read that book? It seems like it would be an abbreviated Revelation commentary
No I haven't read it.
Just seemed relevant in the context of MacArthur on Revelation
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Hey folks!
I looked into the status of the Smalley commentary and it looks like we have a ways to go yet. But we’ve got it on our radar and working to produce it.0 -
SineNomine said:
Until the end of the month, Faithlife is offering the Sacra Pagina commentary on Revelation for free.
Thanks so much for highlighting this. I had completely missed this offer.
Blessings
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Andy said:SineNomine said:
Until the end of the month, Faithlife is offering the Sacra Pagina commentary on Revelation for free.
Thanks so much for highlighting this. I had completely missed this offer.
I recommend subscribing to the Verbum Freebies email list.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Matthew Miller said:
Hey folks!
I looked into the status of the Smalley commentary and it looks like we have a ways to go yet. But we’ve got it on our radar and working to produce it.Thanks for the info, I've pre-ordered it
Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11
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