To rent or not to rent, that is the question

”To rent or not to rent, that is the question” is a spin off from the thread, “Sell me Logos 7 today”, originally started by John Goodman. This thread is NOT his idea or suggestion.

A little background from the aforementioned thread:

Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:16 PM

At the risk of making this thread even longer... :-)

The re-presentation of my 'four points' seems to still be relevant.

It also seems we're having a vocabulary problem -- which I understand we have created. "Logos 7" is actually three things: A) new code, new 'core features' (code and data closely entangled), and C) more/different books in base packages. Starting with Logos 6 we started to make these things clearer, and even to offer tiers of crossgrade and upgrade options, allowing you to pick what you wanted.

We're not yet ready to announce how Logos Now meshes with Logos 7 (we're working on it!), but the basic principles are the same as we have stated over and over and over in these forums. And the reasoning behind them remains the same as it was in the four points helpfully reposted.

I'll hit the key points again, though:

Yes, we want everyone to subscribe to at least Logos Now. It's good for us and it's good for you.

Yes, we know some of you wish to never subscribe to anything, and we will continue to let you purchase things, though some things require online databases, or are hard to 'complete' and you're unlikely to be able to purchase them. We will continue to try to make Logos Now such a compelling offer that you give in and subscribe.

If you do subscribe to Logos Now, you're doing what we want you to, and we would be foolish to 'punish' you for doing what we want. Yes, this is a form of 'trust me', but I feel like we've earned it. If you subscribe to Logos Now, you won't be 'punished' when Logos 7 ships. Yes, we will want you to continue subscribing (on the road to Logos 8!), but our plan, our intention, and our own financial self-interest requires us to treat you well, because you did what we wanted!

Logos Now is best understood as (mostly) parts A and B of the three things that make up a new release. Eventually A (the new code) is free to everyone. B (new code/data entanglements) and C (different books) are part of Logos 7, but we'll price Logos 7 differently -- somehow -- for people who've been subscribing to Logos Now for a while and effectively paying for 'B' already.

People who wait for Logos 7 and get A, B, and C all bundled together may still be missing parts of 'B' that require online databases, etc.

Now, some specific answers:

John Goodman:

1) datasets which could work locally and in fact do work locally on the computer are being restricted to rental. This means that parts of Logos are off limits unless you are willing to rent.

Some of the reason datasets are in Logos Now is because they need online content. But an equally big reason you're leaving out is that many of the new datasets are 'forever incomplete' and being constantly updated. Yes, the data file may be downloadable, but we're updating it constantly as part of Logos Now. If we've tagged 30 books to work with a new guide section, we can download that database to your machine. But over the following months (and years) we're tagging dozens / hundreds more, and that's hard to sell to people. So we put it in Logos Now, where the subscription revenue funds ongoing tagging. This is a big deal to us in labor / expense / etc. that isn't obvious on the other side -- except that things just keep getting subtly better, and staying in sync with new content.

John Goodman:

2) I've come to expect that webapps should be free except for premium content. Lots of other companies provide great free website in which I pay for content.

Alas, my grocer still charges me for food no matter how much I come to expect it for free. :-)

Seriously, you're right, and it's a problem that's dangerous for the industry: lots of good web apps are free. Sometimes because a deeply funded company is willing to lose money to gain share (a luxury we don't have), or because they have another revenue stream -- like covering that site in ads. Note as well that very few 'free web apps' have powerful downloadable desktop software and custom apps for dozens of platforms, AND no ads shown. I don't think we're really in that game at all.

(Well, we are -- see http://biblia.com. But it's not full Logos -- for a reason -- and it has ads, just like most of the free Bible web apps, which don't have very powerful tools or very large libraries.)

John Goodman:

3) It feels pretty cheeky to ask me for more money after I've bought the content. Especially cheeky to ask for money when the website is so much more basic than other bible websites at the moment. Yes I understand about netflix etc but I feel like I'm paying for the content. With Logos Now I feel like I'm paying for a pretty basic website.

Well, the web app is the most trivial part of Logos Now -- it's the data, code, content, services, etc. that deliver the value. The web app is (for now) a bonus -- and while it looks like it hasn't yet caught up to Logos desktop (and it hasn't), a massive amount of work has been going on behind the scenes, and it'll take some big leaps forward in the next twelve months.

n Bob

You may see what others said and his responses to them.

McNeil said to Bob:

Charles McNeil | Forum Activity | Replied: Yesterday 5:51 PM

Bob Pritchett:

Bob,

I want to personally thank you for responding to the concerns in this thread. Despite my differences in the way Faithlife do somethings, I want to say, you do have a product worth developing and protecting.

With all due respect, today it's, rent "Now" and tomorrow, what's next...? Would users of Logos be asked to rent something else while still being owners of large libraries, in the future?

What about giving access to everything and rent the whole thing out by adding dollars to the present rent? Hey, the average person pays $ 50 to $ 125 a month for cell phone plans with two-year agreements. This is not too much to pay to rent full access to use the "best Bible Software on the planet." This will be worth it for the serious users (Universities, authors, students, Pastors, writers and researchers). This is not too much. Students have cell phones and they pay their bills. If people can rent houses, planes, boats, hotels, castles, cars, villas, studios, musicians, and whole Islands, why not books in Logos Bible Software? As for those who purchased large libraries, they can be given free upgrades of future development. If one can't sell that which needs to be sold, rent. It's just an idea for consideration. "Sometimes, new ideas are ugly and scary." Until next time, peace!

Then today, Juanita said:

Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Today 5:41 AM

This situation is untenable to me. I have been a loyal customer for over 15 years and I don't want to subscribe or rent resources or datasets and now I am finding out I will be "punished" when Logos has new releases in the future. This is a tough bullet to bite and I find myself looking for ways to survive the future of Logos. Not as much a complaint but a statement of where I find myself, not being a pastor, seminarian but a senior citizen on a fixed income, looking for ways to not increase any monthly payments.

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steve clark

Charles,

here is a tip which can help you directly hyperlink to specific replies in any forum thread:

(Moved this tip to Forum Tip: hyperlinking to another reply in your reply)

i write this because i was trying to follow what you were trying to say in your above reply and got sent to unusual places on your links.

Dan Francis

This is the real question I see it as follows for myself:

1. Does Logos 6 perform well for me?--YES

2. Do I need the latest bell and whistle that can be added? --NO

3. Am I loosing any functionality by not subscribing to Logos Now? --NO

4. Do I want to subscribe to Logos Now? --No (If I did not have a payment plan going maybe).

5. Do I think lower upgrade prices for Logos Now users are acceptable? --Yes, they have been been helping the funding the development, so they should have a discount.

6. Do I want to directly fund the implementation of Logos 7 by subscribing to Logos Now (this gets one first access to new features that MAY be added to Logos 7 as well as features that will always be subscription)? --No as I feel satisfied not needing the latest feature and am happy knowing that works I have are mine, and I would hope that part of the profit that is coming off my monthly payment helps funding.

7. Am I being forced in anyway to subscribe? --No.

As a person with a fixed income too Juanita I understand your position, that said I also understand that for many others Logos Now makes better sense than purchasing a Logos Package. I do not think you are being punished in anyway by not being a Logos Now customer for the reasons I detailed above. Your answer to the 7 questions I listed may differ from mine. Those are just my conclusions. Their having a discount seems fair too me in the same way the Biblical principle of "You shaw not muzzle an Ox while it is threshing grain." They are part of the creation, there should be some rewards. That said in November 2016 there may well be people crying foul again that Logos 7 is not free to download till February 2017. This may irk me some but again, we can be patient and wait for the free engine or purchase an upgrade right away. I am not going to loose any functionality of my Logos 6 by waiting. I know of users that are content that have never purchased a base package. They do not have all the datasets I do but do they need or want them, for me personally I do not need half the datasets I have access to. I do not mean in anyway to belittle your concerns it just feels to me to be somewhat unfounded when thought out.

-Dan

C M

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/779681#Comment_779681

Steve, Thanks very much!!!

David Taylor, Jr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/779689#Comment_779689

This is the real question I see it as follows for myself:

1. Does Logos 6 perform well for me?--YES

2. Do I need the latest bell and whistle that can be added? --NO

3. Am I loosing any functionality by not subscribing to Logos Now? --NO

4. Do I want to subscribe to Logos Now? --No (If I did not have a payment plan going maybe).

5. Do I think lower upgrade prices for Logos Now users are acceptable? --Yes, they have been been helping the funding the development, so they should have a discount.

6. Do I want to directly fund the implementation of Logos 7 by subscribing to Logos Now (this gets one first access to new features that MAY be added to Logos 7 as well as features that will always be subscription)? --No as I feel satisfied not needing the latest feature and am happy knowing that works I have are mine, and I would hope that part of the profit that is coming off my monthly payment helps funding.

7. Am I being forced in anyway to subscribe? --No.

As a person with a fixed income too Juanita I understand your position, that said I also understand that for many others Logos Now makes better sense than purchasing a Logos Package. I do not think you are being punished in anyway by not being a Logos Now customer for the reasons I detailed above. Your answer to the 7 questions I listed may differ from mine. Those are just my conclusions. Their having a discount seems fair too me in the same way the Biblical principle of "You shaw not muzzle an Ox while it is threshing grain." They are part of the creation, there should be some rewards. That said in November 2016 there may well be people crying foul again that Logos 7 is not free to download till February 2017. This may irk me some but again, we can be patient and wait for the free engine or purchase an upgrade right away. I am not going to loose any functionality of my Logos 6 by waiting. I know of users that are content that have never purchased a base package. They do not have all the datasets I do but do they need or want them, for me personally I do not need half the datasets I have access to. I do not mean in anyway to belittle your concerns it just feels to me to be somewhat unfounded when thought out.

-Dan

If I"m not mistaken (I'll have to find it) I belive Phil Gons said that all of the LOGOS NOW subscribers will have all of the L7 features. I may be wrong though.

C M

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/779689#Comment_779689

As a person with a fixed income too Juanita I understand your position, that said I also understand that for many others Logos Now makes better sense than purchasing a Logos Package. I do not think you are being punished in anyway by not being a Logos Now customer for the reasons I detailed above. Your answer to the 7 questions I listed may differ from mine. Those are just my conclusions. Their having a discount seems fair too me in the same way the Biblical principle of "You shaw not muzzle an Ox while it is threshing grain." They are part of the creation, there should be some rewards. That said in November 2016 there may well be people crying foul again that Logos 7 is not free to download till February 2017. This may irk me some but again, we can be patient and wait for the free engine or purchase an upgrade right away. I am not going to loose any functionality of my Logos 6 by waiting. I know of users that are content that have never purchased a base package. They do not have all the datasets I do but do they need or want them, for me personally I do not need half the datasets I have access to. I do not mean in anyway to belittle your concerns it just feels to me to be somewhat unfounded when thought out.

Dan,

Let me say, in hope that Juanita finds this thread, her situation is understandable. Her years of loyalty are appreciated.

I am NOT or pretend to be a spokesperson for Bob. Neither am I one of Logos’ MVPs.

However, it’s my understanding that current users are asked to rent Logos Now, because the “volume” and timing of “tagging” will be “hard to sell to people. So we put it in Logos Now, where the subscription revenue funds ongoing tagging. This is a big deal to us in labor / expense / etc. that isn't obvious on the other side -- except that things just keep getting subtly better, and staying in sync with new content”, so said Bob, recently (see above for Bob’s complete and original post).

Logos Bible Software is a progressive digital library. I am sure you can attest to this from the years of usage. The nature of this product demands growth and data space. The quote from Bob is reasonably understood. This is why I am suggesting, looking down board and consider, renting the whole thing. In light of the need to expand, grow, and to make a profit, there’s also a need to be reasonably fair in its implementation. Ownership and renting may not sit well with some people. Those with long years of usage and very large libraries, I am sure, Bob and his team will work out something. I don’t have all the answers. In fact, I have not been asked to supply answers to anything. I know for certain, with growth of anything, there will be changes.

We are asked to rent “Logos Now”, but only Bob can tell us if there will be other things to rent in the future (pre or partial of Logos 8, 9, 10, etc.). I do know this one thing, Faithlife is in a better position to collect, maintain, and housed great sums of digital information (books/data sets, etc.) than many of the current individual library owners. This as I understand it, is why many are asked to rent Logos Now and continue to rent some portion of it after Logos 7 is released. I stand to be corrected, if I am wrong on this point.

IMO, I think Logos Now is the “handwriting on the wall.” Because of the accumulation of books, data sets, etc., rent maybe the way to go. Let’s keep in mind, Faithlife has to make a profit, satisfy customers, and remain relevant to millions of users around the world.

Lastly, having a Logos Library is like home ownership. As time, growth, expenses, and maintenance requirements demand attention, one may have to consider renting. Homeowners and people with large Logos libraries, they may view the word “rent” as an anathema. Logos is growing, data will increase, and decisions have to be made. This is my opinion. Bob will speak for himself.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/779702#Comment_779702

IMO, I think Logos Now is the “handwriting on the wall.” Because of the accumulation of books, data sets, etc., rent maybe the way to go. Let’s keep in mind, Faithlife has to make a profit, satisfy customers, and remain relevant to millions of users around the world.

Very much so, and in many ways rental makes more sense. Heck I saw in Amazon the other day they have a new subscription Including numerous books for free. This is not a bad way to go for sure, and in the Long run may bring in many many more users. If they have had this 10 years ago I may have saved myself a small fortune. The way I look at it I have a good Library and when I am gone my church will have it.

-Dan

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/779702#Comment_779702

We are asked to rent “Logos Now”, but only Bob can tell us if there will be other things to rent in the future

Bob has already released Logos Cloud. That is the rental equivalence of buying resources.

C M

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/779791#Comment_779791

Bob has already released Logos Cloud. That is the rental equivalence of buying resources.

Logos Cloud is said to be mostly for renters.

My full sentence -- We are asked to rent “Logos Now”, but only Bob can tell us if there will be other things to rent in the future (pre or partial of Logos 8, 9, 10, etc.).

The point I wanted to make was, looking down board into future development of Logos 8, 9, 10, etc. Will there be in the future L8..L9 ..L10...etc with "timing", "tagging" and large data concerns requiring, as MJ called it, those "who own a significant library" to rent? The reason I am asking again is people have to make plans and budgets moving forward especially, those have invested large sums.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/779849#Comment_779849

Charles, I have been retired and on fixed income for over a dozen years so in a sense I am similar to Juanita in financial planning. What you are doing is trying to place Faithlife between a rock and a hard place. What they are trying to do is provide broader options:

Issue #1 - for many users frequent and large updates of datasets are a problem. Proposed solution - make data that is large and volatile exist in the cloud rather than on an individuals computer aka Logos Now or Logos Cloud
Issue #2 - for many users a tablet is becoming their primary platform. One solution to providing maximum functionality on such devices is use the Cloud - aka Logos Now or Logos Cloud
Issue #3 - if Faithlife moves towards Cloud support, the hardware/storage costs that have been the users now become Faithlife overhead. Solution: have a rental or fee model for those shifting the expense from themselves to Faithlife.
Issue #4 - the model of releasing major versions is proving error prone and insufficiently agile for the contemporary software market. Solution: release features as developed increasing quality and decreasing cost. This raises the issue of how to release the features to those users uncomfortable with constant change i.e. who want releases in the prior "major release" model. Solution: Faithlife has indicated that they will preserve the older model for the foreseeable future but have not yet worked out the details - and cannot until the content of the next major release (Logos 7) are known and their data source (user installation or Cloud) are known.

That's how I see the decisions - it may well be totally unrelated to how Bob P. analyses it.

Matthew

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/779855#Comment_779855

Issue #2 - for many users a tablet is becoming their primary platform. One solution to providing maximum functionality on such devices is use the Cloud - aka Logos Now or Logos Cloud

Is this hypothetical or do subscribers to Now currently have enhanced functionality on the mobile apps? If so, what is it? I do not subscribe to Now but am open to the idea now that Bob has said that there will be at least some sort of price difference when 7 comes out for those who have subscribed for a while. Any information about mobile apps may push me further in that direction. I assume the web app can be accessed on a tablet, obviously provided there is an Internet connection?

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/779954#Comment_779954

do subscribers to Now currently have enhanced functionality on the mobile apps?

I assume the web app can be accessed on a tablet, obviously provided there is an Internet connection?

Yes it can.

David Taylor, Jr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/779954#Comment_779954

Issue #2 - for many users a tablet is becoming their primary platform. One solution to providing maximum functionality on such devices is use the Cloud - aka Logos Now or Logos Cloud

Is this hypothetical or do subscribers to Now currently have enhanced functionality on the mobile apps? If so, what is it? I do not subscribe to Now but am open to the idea now that Bob has said that there will be at least some sort of price difference when 7 comes out for those who have subscribed for a while. Any information about mobile apps may push me further in that direction. I assume the web app can be accessed on a tablet, obviously provided there is an Internet connection?

The web app is also a work in progress still very much in the early stages. But it is getting better.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/779954#Comment_779954

Is this hypothetical or do subscribers to Now currently have enhanced functionality on the mobile apps? If so, what is it? I

Mobile Apps NO, but Logos Now includes a web app that when done is suppose to be fully functional as your desktop App (from what I have heard more and more functionality is being included all the time). So a person who owned only a tablet, a chrome book, or even a LINUX computer could run the browser based APP and have the full power of Logos with them. No need for GB of storage, just the need for a solid internet connection.

-Dan

C M

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/779989#Comment_779989

The web app is also a work in progress still very much in the early stages. But it is getting better.

To rent Logos Now, does it comes with a recommendation of what equipment can be used most effectively?

C M

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/779855#Comment_779855

Issue #4 - the model of releasing major versions is proving error prone and insufficiently agile for the contemporary software market. Solution: release features as developed increasing quality and decreasing cost. This raises the issue of how to release the features to those users uncomfortable with constant change i.e. who want releases in the prior "major release" model. Solution: Faithlife has indicated that they will preserve the older model for the foreseeable future but have not yet worked out the details - and cannot until the content of the next major release (Logos 7) are known and their data source (user installation or Cloud) are known.

MJ,

Your situation and Juanita are not beyond my comprehension. I wish for the two of you and others like you to a lifetime access to all of Faithlife books and data because of your faithfulness and gross investment. This way you don't have to worry about hardware for storage or modernization through upgrades.

Faithlife means well, but they can't control the advancement, generally, in technology. Think back when this system started. Faith life will do what is cost effective and would give them a profit edge. Those with large libraries now will be dwarfed by books and data to come. "Data is money" and "big data" is more money.

What we have now, is a cup of water compared to the ocean, when it comes to books, data and technological advancements. Simply, those who helped Faithlife get to where it is today, shouldn't be lift behind because of advancements.

What I am sharing with you is not a "handout" or an entitlement. It's business. Its like a Reverse Mortgage for homeowners. I am not Bob or a representative of Faithlife, but they should consider something along this line.

I pray God's rich blessings upon you and Juanita in your daily living.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/780015#Comment_780015

To rent Logos Now, does it comes with a recommendation of what equipment can be used most effectively?

Logos Now is NOT a rental model - it is a subscription/rental supplemental model for which your standard desktop requirements apply. I have no concerns that it will have any major impact on my purchased resources or their lifetime usability. It is build on the assumption that I own my library and will continue to purchase resources for my library. It is Logos Cloud which provides a rented library.

C M

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/779855#Comment_779855

MJ,

Your # 1 "Proposed solution" is my whole point of suggesting rental as we move into the future. A part of seriously looking down-board, is it not a part of Faithlife's responsibility to prepare Logos users for future changes? Why I say this? Changes will come and they may be faster than Bob, you or I may care for it to happen.

If Faithlife is as serious and as solvent as Bob seeks to convey, than data is way to go. Mining data is big business. This is how we get our data sets, L8, L9, etc. If Bob is as astute as I perceive him to be, he wants Faithlife to have its share of the market.

Other than tweeting the new developments, rental will give faithlife the opportunity to turn out the Logos Series faster because it would have steady flow of income. Therefore, faster releases, more customers, workers, more features, more access for all and greater knowledge of the Bible, to dissimilate to the world. Faith life too often has to wait on the market to make releases. With rental, this will be no more. How do you think bus and train services are provided in cities around the world? User-ship! Just because people ride busses and trains it doesn't means everyone has to give up their cars. So it should be with Logos Bible Software.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/780061#Comment_780061

Your # 1 "Proposed solution" is my whole point of suggesting rental as we move into the future.

I need to go back and read all your posts as I have gotten confused. Why are yyou suggesting rental when that is already possible under Logos Cloud?

Yes, data mining is big business but from the 4 courses I have taken recently I'm not sure how useful it would be for the Scriptural corpus. I'm fond of text analytics but have difficulty finding actual uses for them.

Bruce Roth

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/779855#Comment_779855

Charles, I have been retired and on fixed income for over a dozen years so in a sense I am similar to Juanita in financial planning. What you are doing is trying to place Faithlife between a rock and a hard place. What they are trying to do is provide broader options:

Issue #1 - for many users frequent and large updates of datasets are a problem. Proposed solution - make data that is large and volatile exist in the cloud rather than on an individuals computer aka Logos Now or Logos Cloud

I think that for a lot of users this is not as much a problem as in the past. High speed connections is becoming more common. I am on a fiber network so the large updates don't amount to much. I do understand that a lot of users are not able to have high speed connections. Maybe a solution would be to have updates downloaded in the background like MS does.

Issue #2 - for many users a tablet is becoming their primary platform. One solution to providing maximum functionality on such devices is use the Cloud - aka Logos Now or Logos Cloud

I use the tablet as my primary platform as I don't always need all the functionality of the desktop. I use the desktop for those times as well as creating documents. But one of the challenges is that a lot of times I am using the tablet without an internet connection so Logos Cloud/Now is not going to be of benefit to me that much.

Issue #3 - if Faithlife moves towards Cloud support, the hardware/storage costs that have been the users now become Faithlife overhead. Solution: have a rental or fee model for those shifting the expense from themselves to Faithlife.

I don't see this as much of an issue for most folks as disk drives are very cheap these days. I have a significant hard drive in my laptop and I have a couple of 2+ terabyte external drives that were less than $100.