Linux version of Logos Bible Software
Comments
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Kolen Cheung said:Aaron Newell said:
installed windows 10 in a vm and installed logos there.
I don't think people in this thread is interested in VM. (Not that they might not did it, but it is trivial to do and nothing to discuss.) They are discussing about running Linux natively, including using WINE (which is a compatibility layer rather than hypervisor.
I agree that many, if not most, people commenting in this thread want to run Logos natively on Linux. The reality is that Faithlife is not committed to it. Aaron and others who live in Linux for everything else they do may find the trade off of running a Windows guest VM and Logos within it to be worth the performance hit if their hardware is up to the task.
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Bill Anderson said:Kolen Cheung said:Aaron Newell said:
installed windows 10 in a vm and installed logos there.
I don't think people in this thread is interested in VM. (Not that they might not did it, but it is trivial to do and nothing to discuss.) They are discussing about running Linux natively, including using WINE (which is a compatibility layer rather than hypervisor.
I agree that many, if not most, people commenting in this thread want to run Logos natively on Linux. The reality is that Faithlife is not committed to it. Aaron and others who live in Linux for everything else they do may find the trade off of running a Windows guest VM and Logos within it to be worth the performance hit if their hardware is up to the task.
If you read the paranthesis I said it is trivial to run Logos in a VM, making it not worth discussing at all. And I don't think any Linux users didn't know such solution exist already.
And then how would that be related to "Linux version of Logos Software" at all? Any way to run Logos without VM can be classified as "Linux version" in someway, but putting it inside a VM isn't. So it is completely off topic.
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Kolen Cheung said:
If you read the paranthesis I said it is trivial to run Logos in a VM, making it not worth discussing at all. And I don't think any Linux users didn't know such solution exist already.
Kolen, I think you underestimate the breadth of experience (or lack thereof) and knowledge (or lack thereof) of forum users. What you consider trivial may be new information to someone else - or useful information for someone not using Linux. Please help us make everyone feel welcome on the forums by welcoming everyone and every level of knowledge.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Kolen Cheung said:
If you read the paranthesis I said it is trivial to run Logos in a VM, making it not worth discussing at all. And I don't think any Linux users didn't know such solution exist already.
Kolen, I think you underestimate the breadth of experience (or lack thereof) and knowledge (or lack thereof) of forum users. What you consider trivial may be new information to someone else - or useful information for someone not using Linux. Please help us make everyone feel welcome on the forums by welcoming everyone and every level of knowledge.
Trivial in terms of technical achievement. If one don't know how to do that, they are welcome to open a new thread asking for help. Or if one recently discovered this and want to help others who might not, again they can start their own thread about this.
That post clearly is off-topic, where the topic is "Linux version of Logos Bible Software". Now I didn't point it at their nose saying that it is off-topic and asked them to shut up. Instead I said
Kolen Cheung said:I don't think people in this thread is interested in VM. (Not that they might not did it, but it is trivial to do and nothing to discuss.) They are discussing about running Linux natively, including using WINE (which is a compatibility layer rather than hypervisor.
I tried to let him understand the situation of this thread politely.
I suggest you stop policing around, and try to read the context before you reply.
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Kolen,
You and MJ Smith are both correct. I appreciate being given enough information about subjects being discussed so that I can search for more information should I want it.
Let's not talk about "virtual machine" running Logos. It's not what this discussion is about. Dual booting Windows is another solution, but again, it's not the topic. However it's good to mention them in passing.It would be wonderful to have a native Linux Logos! Logos is the only Windows program I need to run, it is vastly superior to run it in Windows by rebooting. It's just annoying to boot into Windows for one program.Let's not fight, pagans can do that for us.Regards,DavidIt would be almost as nice to have Windows Logos running under WINE,Thanks!David0 -
Guess it's time for me to jump in to this thread (again)... I wish FL would lock it to prevent future comments.
Faithlife: Please do not spend a nanosecond on any effort to "port" Logos to Linux.
My $.02... Thank you.
Donnie
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Not sure why you take that stance. I really wish/desire that they would. It even seems like Microsoft itself is moving toward open source.
But, even though this is what I desire, alas, I gave up hope of it ever happening a few years ago and decided to spend any more of my money elsewhere.
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Kolen Cheung said:
Trivial in terms of technical achievement. If one don't know how to do that, they are welcome to open a new thread asking for help.
Absolutely right on! He's not trying to be rude, only brief and thus useful.
VM is semi-obvious and semi-more-obviously a non-solution because...
In a software download area with: Windows | Linux | Mac one wouldn't download a VM solution from the "Linux" download link. That being a practical example of the purpose of this thread: to have some kind of thing or another that would rightly go under the "Linux" download link on a download page... or at have the link point to WINE install instructions.
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Donnie Hale said:
would lock it to prevent future comments.... Please do not spend a nanosecond on any effort to "port" Logos to Linux.
Why lock the forum when Linux people might be able to discuss here to do the dev themselves?
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I feel like I am seeing some very strict interpretations on what is appropriate for this thread. More specifically, the idea that discussing using a VM to run a non-linux version on a Linux machine is not appropriate. I do find it odd that a discussion related to running the Android version in an emulator is OK, even though there is likely not much difference between an Android Emulator and a product such as Virtual Box or VMWare; although I will admit that I have not looked at how the internals of the Android emulators differ from VMWare or Vitual Box. I do know how Wine works, and that essentially allows Windows applications to run natively, but they are way behind the curve since Logos is (or at least they were last I checked) using the newest latest features in Windows.
If I want to be very legalistic, I might mention that this is a "suggestion" forum for people to make suggestions for Logos and clearly this thread has strayed far from that. If we really want a thread on how to use Logos from a Linux machine, perhaps we should start a new thread elsewhere.
I do find it interesting how others choose to try and make things work inside of Linux. I have no expectation that a Linux version will be released unless they choose to move to a common application framework such as QT. The time to do that was when they created a version to run on Apple devices. I do have experience there, but I have limited exposure to multi-platform development from inside the Microsoft Visual Studio environment.
Last I checked, they do have an interest in a Linux version of Logos, but I think that they are far from making that happen at this point.
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Donnie Hale said:
Guess it's time for me to jump in to this thread (again)... I wish FL would lock it to prevent future comments.
Faithlife: Please do not spend a nanosecond on any effort to "port" Logos to Linux.
My $.02... Thank you.
Donnie
This is quite sad. You are welcome to your 2 cents. But it is wrong to impose it on others. There are people (and I am one of them) who would like to see Logos available in Linux. There is nothing wrong in discussing it and coming up with possibilities. If you are not interested, then simply ignore the thread. Linux is growing more popular. There is only two reasons why I am not using Linux and one of those reasons is Logos. This thread has been alive since 2009 and much has changed in the past 10 years. Let the discussion continue. It is not breaking any forum rules.
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Andrew,
Suggestions like dual boot Windows, run a virtual machine, install Windows, then install Logos are obviously not "Linux version of Logos Bible Software."
Or even "Buy a Windows computer" aren't the subject.
Discussions can get way off subject, and when you're trying to find answers by searching, it's important to have the topic match if possible.
We have some trolls on this thread who have sabotaged discussion from the start.
Regards,
David
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It would be a bad business descision to invest the money to produce it. Faithife has limited resources, and 99% of customers if asked would no doubt prefer those resources were used to produce a better product they can use.
I expect 99% of those who use Linux and Wine can use Virtualbox, but I will happily do a tutorial for those that dont if requested, as this is how I run Logos often.
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This might be a stupid question but I'll try it anyway.
I would like to run the Logos PC version on an Android tablet.
This Galaxy Tab S4 has a good screen and a good processor and I could add memory to it.
The next question is how to implement it, I mean is it theoretically possible?
Just some general advice or moderate opinion at this point.
Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11
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Veli Voipio said:
This might be a stupid question but I'll try it anyway.
I would like to run the Logos PC version on an Android tablet.
This Galaxy Tab S4 has a good screen and a good processor and I could add memory to it.
The next question is how to implement it, I mean is it theoretically possible?
Just some general advice or moderate opinion at this point.
Veli, you're far smarter than me. And you know very well that PC coding and Android coding are different, so you'd need a Windows 'box' on your Android .... with Windows.
But you're in luck .... FL is porting (as we speak) their web app to the desktop! You can do your Logos on android. All of this, smiling.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Hi Veli,
That would be wonderful. The problem is that Crossover - which is a polished and paid for version of WINE doesn't work on ARM processors that Android usually runs on.
So were back to square one. A Linux / Android version of Logos Bible Software - OR - compatibility to run WINE or Crossover run it on Linux / Android.
I have a Linux computer and I only use one program on the Windows part of the dual boot computer, that's solely for Logos.
Even if it was a Linux version with a vastly restricted feature set, it's far inexpensive to outfit missionaries and students with Linux laptops than Windows laptops.
I for one find Linux much more stable -- perhaps with Windows 10 things have improved, but when I installed various programs, the DLL files started crashing on me. This doesn't happen in Linux because Linux doesn't allow modification of library files.
Short answer - you probably won't see a full version of Logos on Android unless you can find a non ARM based phone or tablet and Logos offers a version that works with WINE or Crossover.
I am not opposed to paying for a version that would work with WINE.
Be well
David
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I'd like to clarify a few things:
- Can you run Logos on Windows under a VM? NO!
Well, you *can* physically do it, but you are violating your Windows license. As someone who reads the Bible you should know that the 10 Commandments include "thou shall not steal" and using software illegally is theft of property. Or if you don't want to look at it that way, you could say "thou shall not lie" and agreeing to a software license and then using it outside that agreement is lying. Either way you should not be running Windows under a VM (that's assuming you have a regular Windows license - if you purchase a license to run virtual machines, or use Microsoft Azure or Amazon AWS Windows instances you are covered).- Can you run Logos under WINE? NO (at least I don't know of anyone who's successfully done it).
Also note that FL has officially announced they have no plans to support Logos on Linux. Instead, they will support a browser-based SaaS Logos, which will be OS independent. So the issue is really closed. So there is no need to grandstanding, name calling, etc.
If you have Linux, or any other non-Windows OS, use Logos as an online service. That is the solution going forward.
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Andrew said:
I do find it odd that a discussion related to running the Android version in an emulator is OK, even though there is likely not much difference between an Android Emulator and a product such as Virtual Box or VMWare
That's where you've misunderstood. Learn about Anbox and if you still have questions we can continue to discuss. In the post I suggested running Android version of Logos on Linux I briefly mentioned it is a container technology, using the fact that Android and Linux shares the same Linux kernel, to run any Android application natively on the host.
May be I've made too much assumption on what knowledge Linux users should have. But this is the basic difference in running VM vs. else. Windows on VM requires a Windows license, WINE don't. VM requires its own virtual disk (although it is common now to reclaim spaces from it) and RAM hence inefficient in disk and RAM space use (i.e. you need to pre-allocate the space and stick to it.) VM has a penalty (not that compatibility layer doesn't, but they differs a lot that one is often negligible and one doesn't.) VM however is the most robust solution because every chain are officially support (e.g. Running VMWare on certain Linux distro as host is supported, Running Windows as guest on VMWare is officially supported, running Logos on Windows is officially supported. It is almost always the most stable solution, often not less stable than running Windows on bare metal. The reasons not to use it is often comes down to money (licensing of Windows), aesthetic (don't like a separate desktop having its own UI, etc.), performance (a more beefy computer is often needed), etc.
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Michael Lindner said:
- Can you run Logos on Windows under a VM? NO!
Well, you *can* physically do it, but you are violating your Windows license. As someone who reads the Bible you should know that the 10 Commandments include "thou shall not steal" and using software illegally is theft of property. Or if you don't want to look at it that way, you could say "thou shall not lie" and agreeing to a software license and then using it outside that agreement is lying. Either way you should not be running Windows under a VM (that's assuming you have a regular Windows license - if you purchase a license to run virtual machines, or use Microsoft Azure or Amazon AWS Windows instances you are covered).You can't be more mistaken. If you replace Windows by macOS, that's somewhat true (macOS can legitimately be virtualize as long as it is running on Apple hardware), but that's totally wrong for Windows.
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Andrew said:
I feel like I am seeing some very strict interpretations on what is appropriate for this thread. More specifically...
Andrew has some good points. Discussion here has broken down. I have a humble request for everyone, a few points in everyone's defense first:
- VM and Android are remotely related, but still related a little. The most on-topic would probably be WINE, but not only.
- If Logos PMs don't want to put resources into helping we who spend thousands of dollars on their books, that is their prerogative; though it looks bad, Logos PMs should follow their direction.
- We need to love each other, I trust we all do.
- The Linux crowd wouldn't want Logos to necessarily do the dev, but give permission to do it themselves.
That said, Logos just isn't interested, so let's not bother them anymore. Let's take this discussion away from Logos and I'll try to organize a friendly communication with Faithlife and everyone else. To do this, I'll try to set something up somewhere, please follow me elsewhere on the Internet, usually @JesselSteele
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For me the main point of the thread was to log a desire for a Linux version of Logos but the discussion has diversified in useful ways which I would summarise as follows...
Faithlife's response is that they don't see a viable business case for a 'native' version but due to a number of factors, the web app is their response. I endorse and welcome that response... it is a huge step forward! Personally, my fav desktop environment has been kde for years but I almost always use mac os for church in order that I can have native Logos.
Then the discussion rightly diversified because many of us didn't like no / web app as an answer...
Windows in a VM is a legit solution for the well funded and yes it requires licensing but I don't think the telling off above is reasonable as it assumes that people don't understand software licensing and are 'stealing'. At my church we have 4 virtual machines running windows and all are correctly licensed. We also have 6 macs and a chrome bit.
Running the android version on linux is also a much more 'native' and offline possibility than a vm - I'm interested in this possibility but I already find the web app to be more useful for most things. I am so rarely out of range of wifi that the extra desktop functionality is desirable but offline is less of an issue to me - others will have an offline requirement.
Wine is a very worthwhile discussion. I have found wine to work 100% reliably for certain ham radio apps that I use but they are far simpler than Logos. There could easily be licensing issues with running Logos on wine in respect of its dependencies - which would need working out. My feeling is that a community effort can get the wine solution working and if we succeed, it might move the goal posts sufficiently for faithlife to become involved.
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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John,
Good post. The only problem with a web based Logos would be those users in areas where Internet service isn't available, like merchant mariners and missionaries in deepest Western Australia.
As I mentioned running Logos in virtual machine has problems with accessibility, I think these problems would be best in another thread.
I think it's wonderful that they were mentioned because the interest in this thread shows people are interested in this, but it really belongs to the obvious alternatives like dual booting, or having another computer with Windows.
Regards,
David
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John Goodman said:
Running the android version on linux is also a much more 'native' and offline possibility than a vm - I'm interested in this possibility but I already find the web app to be more useful for most things. I am so rarely out of range of wifi that the extra desktop functionality is desirable but offline is less of an issue to me - others will have an offline requirement.
If anyone like the web app (which is better than the mobile app if there’s good internet connection), you might want to turn the web app into a native-like app via Nativefier. (https://appmaker.xyz/web2desk/ also does the same thing without needing to install anything. I haven't tried it however and frankly I would only trust the one generated locally.)
Make no mistakes, it is not native in the sense that it runs without internet. It essentially is a wrapper using the Electron framework to turn any website/web-app into a standalone application. The advantage is that you can run it independent of your browser/tabs, and has a bigger “screen real estate” because there’s no toolbars up there.
Just to make sure no one misunderstand this, what I said is potentially beneficial to Linux users who already satisfied with the web app. Given Faithlife’s official position in supporting Linux is through the web app, this is a slight improvement to the official solution.
(The logic is like this: start with what Logos offers—macOS, Windows, iOS, Android, Web, (ignoring VM) eliminate all choices that cannot be run on Linux (no compatibility layer exists for macOS/iOS). Then we're left with Windows with WINE as compatibility layer, Android with Anbox as container sharing the same kernel, Web with Nativefier using Electron framework to deliver web app as desktop experience. I believe this list is an exhaustive list of what one can run Logos on Linux.)
For me I would use both—the web app in Electron when there's good internet connection and the Android app through Anbox as the fall back solution when there aren't.
John Goodman said:There could easily be licensing issues with running Logos on wine in respect of its dependencies
My guess is it's related to the DRM. If not done carefully, one can expose ways for Logos on Linux through WINE to read arbitrary unlicensed resources. This might be the reason they're reluctant to support Logos through WINE. But this is just a guess, only someone from Faithlife knows if it's true.
Another thing people might not considered is this. Although Faithlife's current position on the matter is that web app is their answer to this. Remember that it's always just a business decision which can be changed over time when the business environment changed. One reason companies might not want to support Linux is that there's so much distro (and file systems, etc.) and it can be tricky to make sure the software they release runs fine on any Linux configuration (e.g. Dropbox currently only support Ubuntu+ext4 and nothing else on Linux.) However, with the recent advances of cross-distribution applications support in Linux, namely AppImage, Snap and Flatpak, this greatly simplifies a release of Linux application, where one single distribution (say snap) can guarantee it runs on all Linux distro given they support snap (where anyone can install that on any Linux given enough time to learn.) The availability of these tools can change the "equation" in their business decision, where supporting it is not as costly in dev. time as in the past.
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Most Android environments require Virtual Box to run because you use an emulator regardless of the emulator. Consider, for example, that the phones use a different CPU than your desktop. I have no idea how the emulators actually differ between Windows and Linux, however.
The fact that Logos does not work with Wine is not a decision made by Logos, in fact, they really wish that it was supported, at least that has been posted by Logos previously in this thread; I think it was in this thread.... It was a while ago.
Wine, unlike a virtual machine, implements the libraries included in Windows. This means that the program runs natively on Linux (with a little help). Logos does not work because they keep using the latest greatest features that are not yet supported in Wine. I gave up on that years ago so I have no idea which libraries are causing problems today and I could be completely wrong (see https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=771 and https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=36273). If thel ink is to be believed, if you go back to the 2016 release of Logos, two people reported it as functional.
I think that Logos 8 was released end of last year, perhaps a good start is to create an entry on the Wine site for logos 8. Frankly, I am surprised that version 7 was listed at even the bronze level.
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Hey everyone,
For some of us the need to run natively (via Wine) in Linux is because we are supporting hundreds of mother-tongue bible translators using Linux because it is free to share and free for us to customize to make it simple for the users plus highly resistant toward viruses. Fonts, keyboards, translation software ALL pre-installed and thus our IT much more effective with support and users are MUCH more effective with their work.
Adding a full Virtual Machine would be too challenging for these beginning tech users, plus on a single laptop with 1366 x 768 resolution it is hard enough without introducing VM window management.
Anyway, I am the one that has made it "part way" with Logos 7 running in WINE. I am trying Logos 8 now but hitting the same roadblock(s) as noted here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Gms_Bc2Q_OOH3G5lmP6twXnqiSWxrFFT7lCN3nRyymw/edit
Please contribute to testing as able and hopefully we can get past this memory reading error! Bradley Grainger, FL developer, has contributed to that document and is willing to help but we need to get him better bug reports and traces so that he has something to work with.
Regards from Ethiopia, Rik
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Hey everyone,
For some of us the need to run natively (via Wine) in Linux is because we are supporting hundreds of mother-tongue bible translators using Linux because it is free to share and free for us to customize to make it simple for the users plus highly resistant toward viruses. Fonts, keyboards, translation software ALL pre-installed and thus our IT much more effective with support and users are MUCH more effective with their work.
Adding a full Virtual Machine would be too challenging for these beginning tech users, plus on a single laptop with 1366 x 768 resolution it is hard enough without introducing VM window management.
Anyway, I am the one that has made it "part way" with Logos 7 running in WINE. I am trying Logos 8 now but hitting the same roadblock(s) as noted here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Gms_Bc2Q_OOH3G5lmP6twXnqiSWxrFFT7lCN3nRyymw/edit
Please contribute to testing as able and hopefully we can get past this memory reading error! Bradley Grainger, FL developer, has contributed to that document and is willing to help but we need to get him better bug reports and traces so that he has something to work with.
Regards from Ethiopia, Rik0 -
Denise said:
FL is porting (as we speak) their web app to the desktop!
Sounds like eternal punishment
Logos is compiled to PC and Mac.
But for example Chrome (and also other software) is compiled to PC, Mac, Linux and Android. [:|]
Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11
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Mark said:
This is quite sad. You are welcome to your 2 cents. But it is wrong to impose it on others.
I'm not imposing my 2 cents on you by stating my point of view any more than you are imposing your 2 cents on me by stating your point of view.
I've followed this thread from its beginning. I've used Linux since the early 2000s. My objection is to FL expending its limited resources on a port. I'd prefer speed, stability, and features in the existing desktop app. FL's answer for Linux users is the web app. That's my opinion. I understand others differ.
Donnie
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Sorry for the previous double post, our internet is poor enough that I thought it got stuck trying to submit so accidentally re-posted.
Anyway, I just got done trying Logos 8 with Wine in Ubuntu (Wasta-Linux) 18.04.2. Similar challenge, but the crash output seems a bit more clear in confirming that it is indees something in interrogating the resource files that crashes. I posted that to the Google Doc linked above. So I'll keep trying! Bradley Grainger replied to a personal message saying the following:
"It doesn't immediately give me a clue as to what's going wrong. The last managed method on the call stack ends up invoking a lot of native code; that's a fairly large surface area to look at."
Here is the beginning of the crash for those that are interested:
Unhandled Exception: System.AccessViolationException: Attempted to read or write protected memory. This is often an indication that other memory is corrupt.
at Libronix.DigitalLibrary.Resources.Logos.NativeMethods.SinaiInterop_TryGetResourceIdAndVersion(SafeILicenseManagerHandle pLicenseManager, String pszFilePath, String& strResourceId, String&strResourceVersion)
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Denise said:
FL is porting (as we speak) their web app to the desktop!
I can't find this original statement using the forum search? I'm interested... how do we know this? It might be a very good approach...
Thanks,
John
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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John Goodman said:Denise said:
FL is porting (as we speak) their web app to the desktop!
I can't find this original statement using the forum search? I'm interested... how do we know this? It might be a very good approach...
It's not true.
(Denise's statements are sometimes very cryptic, so it's hard to know exactly what she meant. Maybe she was referring to the increased use of web-based technologies in the desktop application, e.g., the home page is written using HTML? Or that the new Notes Tool came out on the web first, then was added to the desktop? But this wasn't a port of the web app to the desktop; this was a ground-up rewrite for both platforms, that just happened to ship on the web first.)
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Denise's statements are sometimes very cryptic
#Understatement
#ThatsBeingGenerous
-Donnie
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Any recent wine progress?
John 3:17 (ESV)
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.0 -
Chris, you will find the status of wine if you just look at this thread briefly
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Rik Shaw said:
For some of us the need to run natively (via Wine) in Linux is because we are supporting hundreds of mother-tongue bible translators using Linux because it is free to share and free for us to customize to make it simple for the users plus highly resistant toward viruses. Fonts, keyboards, translation software ALL pre-installed and thus our IT much more effective with support and users are MUCH more effective with their work.
Windows alternative for running Linux is cygwin => https://www.cygwin.com/ that could be used to compile hundreds of mother-tongue bible translators. X-Windows configuration has several window manager choices, which can include sharing clipboard with Windows.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Although people have posted about WINE and Logos (Windows) compatibility, I've not seen any update. I believe there was talk about one of the needed libraries being ported to Linux which the person was very excited about.
Regards,
David
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Rik Shaw said:
For some of us the need to run natively (via Wine) in Linux is because we are supporting hundreds of mother-tongue bible translators using Linux because it is free to share and free for us to customize to make it simple for the users plus highly resistant toward viruses. Fonts, keyboards, translation software ALL pre-installed and thus our IT much more effective with support and users are MUCH more effective with their work.
Windows alternative for running Linux is cygwin => https://www.cygwin.com/ that could be used to compile hundreds of mother-tongue bible translators. X-Windows configuration has several window manager choices, which can include sharing clipboard with Windows.
Keep Smiling Smile
WSL (windows Subsystem for Linux, also has many names due to poor marketing) can be better if it works.
But honestly i don’t think any Unix-like OS users can settle with a Windows setup that happen to be able to run like one. It has many problems. Stability, and the frequency of mandatory updates, etc. are very problematic. See more from https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-microsoft.en.html
Moreover Unix-like OS users probably like to be able to manage everything through scripts and command lines, all using bash or similar shells. Now probably some Windows guru can also manage there OS using Powershell, but arguably it is not as powerful and most importantly it is an "alien" thing to learn (for most people educated in the U.S. to learn programming, they learn something like bash, not powershell.)
And also one can never beat something like Linux for efficiency, reliability, customizability, light-weightiness, etc. eg some Linux users might complain about a certain distribution to be not efficient in memory use but even in those cases we're talking about sub-1GB usually.
For most people who like Unix-like OS But next some proprietary GUI softwares, macOS is the answer, not Windows. There's a similar article from GNU like an article above regarding macOS but the list is much shorter and points less severe. The recent advances in package managers by homebrew and homebrew cask made managing packages purely from the command lines doable. Most things are scriptable thanks to bash, and AppleScript integration from "traditional macOS softwares (not Logos though.) Most if not all common GNU softwares can be compiled, many of them through package manager homebrew, on the macOS, including GUI softwares, file browser, etc.
Some might say Mac hardwares are expensive to own, its true to a certain extent, but often the total cost of ownership is lesser, because its depreciate less steep, perhaps because its hardware is more reliable (I know someone is looking at those butterfly keyboard) and its software can run on hardwares half a decade old. I know it is hard to beat Linux in this regard tough. I met a senior scientist (meaning he's definitely not short in money) still using a notebook from like the 2000s.
So I think to someone using Linux, macOS is a better compromise than Windows. But I bet to some it is still an insult to recommend such because they want to run Linux, not some Linux
"clone". On the other hand, even if Logos releases a Linux version, it will still feel so much out of place—for one I don't think they are going to include a scriptable interface to interact with Logos. And Logos' custom UI makes it feel so out of place to any customizable one might have applied. (It is out of place on macOS, how much more it will be on Linux.)0 -
Kolen Cheung said:
WSL (windows Subsystem for Linux, also has many names due to poor marketing) can be better if it works.
WSL was released on 2 Aug 2016, which was a couple months after my use of Windows ceased. Previous experience using Microsoft's System for Unix Applications (SUA) and cygwin found cygwin easier to configure and use since SUA was a bit quirky.
Kolen Cheung said:Some might say Mac hardwares are expensive to own, its true to a certain extent, but often the total cost of ownership is lesser, because its depreciate less steep, perhaps because its hardware is more reliable (I know someone is looking at those butterfly keyboard) and its software can run on hardwares half a decade old.
Thankful for late 2014 model 27" iMac with 5K display for my primary Logos & Verbum use (running macOS Mojave 10.14.4 in dark mode). Thankful for mid 2013 MacBook Air running macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 for portable Logos & Verbum use (approaching six years old).
Some Apple Mac models have competitive pricing while others models have luxury pricing. Refurbished Mac's have 15% or more discount => https://www.apple.com/shop/refurbished/mac
Kolen Cheung said:So I think to someone using Linux, macOS is a better compromise than Windows. But I bet to some it is still an insult to recommend such because they want to run Linux, not some Linux "clone".
Concur plus technically macOS uses Darwin that includes Berkeley Software Distribution (BSD) process model. BSD predates Linux by 14 years. Apple includes over 200 open source projects in macOS => https://opensource.apple.com/ albeit user interface Cocoa is proprietary closed source.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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WSL was released on 2 Aug 2016, which was a couple months after my use of Windows ceased. Previous experience using Microsoft's System for Unix Applications (SUA) and cygwin found cygwin easier to configure and use since SUA was a bit quirky.
When it was first released it ain't very good. But for now it is quite good. IO has high overhead. So for non-IO intensive stuffs WSL is the current best bet (if the application one needs runs, e.g. exclude GUI except if they want to set up their own XWindow setup.)
A lightweight VM setup can uses the included HyperV (may be Pro, or Enterprise/Education only).
Concur plus technically macOS uses Darwin that includes Berkeley Software Distribution (BSD) process model. BSD predates Linux by 14 years. Apple includes over 200 open source projects in macOS => https://opensource.apple.com/ albeit user interface Cocoa is proprietary closed source.
No one uses Darwin by itself and few uses BSD as desktop. Some do, but as this thread shows even Linux has so much friction from companies to support, FreeBSD desktop users are very brave (except for those FreeNAS users, where most technically aren't using them as desktop anyway.)
Apple/Mac's open source practice are not good though. The choice of open source components are more like because they are good but not because they are open source. Darwin project effectively is Apple only project because as I heard in the early days of Darwin people try to contribute and essentially most ideas are rejected by their core team at Apple and so no one wants to develop for it anymore.
Also the GNU GPLv3 situation on Apple is very bad. GPL softwares on macOS like bash freeze at 2007 and no upgrade ever since. That leads to some good things like the advances in LLVM and clang compilers, etc.
Also the recent dropping support of NVidia driver on Mojave is not good too.
Apple has its own agenda, when it is of its interests, advances happened at crazy speed, short time frame. When it isn't, it just got frozen, or even completely cut off. Like whole team of automation just disappeared.
So while macOS is the current best compromise to have something Unix-like and most Linux tools available (most gnu tools can be installed via say homebrew), people really need something like Linux when Apple's agenda gone too far from theirs. (And obviously Windows won't be the answer, for many people wanting to have a Unix-like OS.)
Think about the situation of Steam and SteamOS. It offers people a platform to use their product directly without relying on anything else (i.e. no cost attached to the OS it relies on.) Logos could do the same thing here. For some people Logos could be the only OS they need. They boot into it and the only thing they use is Logos (notes jot in it, sermon created it in, browsing wikipedia with it, etc.) Imagine one day the only licensing fee a Christian need to pay is to Logos and Logos alone. Logos might think the Linux market is too small. Or they could think that among the Bible software companies, they are the only one big enough to becomes someone's only software to run. In order to do that, they need a Linux version.
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Kolen Cheung said:
Think about the situation of Steam and SteamOS. It offers people a platform to use their product directly without relying on anything else (i.e. no cost attached to the OS it relies on.) Logos could do the same thing here. For some people Logos could be the only OS they need. They boot into it and the only thing they use is Logos (notes jot in it, sermon created it in, browsing wikipedia with it, etc.)
Appears SteamOS has gaming console focus without mouse and keyboard. Faithlife developers would need to include more Debian packages (e.g. a file system, image viewer) for application/presentation/TV use along with partnering with Steam for their online store (could be useful for Faithlife TV).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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I'm not talking about that. I'm saying something like Steam offering a SteamOS, or Kodi offering a Kodibuntu.
Like Kodibuntu, Logos can be the desktop to log in, instead of logging into some desktop and open Logos. i.e. Logos can be something some people only use (well some sort of browser is needed but given Logos already has a wikipedia module it is not something entirely out of Logos' reach. Perhaps a Javascript jit compiler is not that there. But besides that what sort of things needed in a Christian's workflow can't be done by Logos?)
Or something like people buying a Chromebook and install Logos desktop on it (ChromeOS can install Linux softwares.)
The point is a Logos for Linux give people a choice to not choose base on the OS (using macOS or Windows has its associated cost on top of what one is paying for Logos.) For some Logos for Linux is a choice of Linux but for some others Logos for Linux can be a choice free from a choice of OS. (I mean they don't need to care about what underlying OS is running as along as it doesn't add cost and it runs Logos.)
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May be a great news to some people here: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/commandline/shipping-a-linux-kernel-with-windows/
(If anything at least it shows not even microsoft can ignore Linux.)
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Thanks for posting. I have been scrubbing through the posts to read about successful runs of Logos on Linux that can be repeated by a novice like myself. The VM certainly stirs up a lot of interest for me.
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The short summary is that there’s currently no way to run Logos desktop on Linux (other than VM because it is what it's designed for.)
With VM, you need to have a Windows license. Also, you may need a license for the software as well. VirtualBox is free but performance is not good. Best currently is VMWare which supports graphical acceleration on Linux host Windows guest. Since Logos is a demanding program including graphical performance I think VMWare should be the better choice.
The extra license cost Is one of the reason of the requests here, others including VM penalty and also not everyone want to have a guest OS running.
To reduces license cost, you could try to find if you have any old Windows 7/8 license lying around. It is still possible to upgrade from those to 10 for free. Also, if you're from academics, check if your institute offers VMWare a workstation. VMWare Player is free to use but I'm not sure if it supports hardware acceleration so you may check that first.
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I agree with you that Virtualbox is slow, but the best answer is not VMware. I am using KVM on Linux to run copy of windows in which I run Logos. If you have trouble setting up KVM, just install Gnome Boxes and use that. Good Gnome Boxes uses KVM behind the scenes. I prefer using straight KVM because it has more options, but Gnome Boxes should work fine as well.
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Got a tiny bit further than before with 8.7... still resources don't download but many features do seem to work. Am working on ideas to get resources to download. I've found about 25 ways that don't work so far;)
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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n.b. those with linux knowledge will recognise that the ram usage and vm icon indicate I am running a virtual machine but that is not what you are looking at. This is Logos running native via wine on kubuntu using Rik's instructions but with the newer software.
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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Compared to using a virtual machine in Linux. It would probably work better with less expensive hardware to remote desktop from Linux to a Windows 10 computer running Logos. It takes the same software for a VM and a VM splits up your computer hardware on a single computer.
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Actually a VM doesn't 'split' but intelligently shares for the most part. It does have a separate RAM allocation so if you have less than 8gb it might not be a great plan. With 16gb I have no probs using the virtual machine but I am wanting to get the wine option stable.
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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Wonderful progress! Thank you for posting this and for continuing to experiment!
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