Linux version of Logos Bible Software
Comments
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sansom48 said:
Ok, being that I am virtually a coding idiot and know nothing, does Window's recent openness impact this idea of having Logos on Linux at all? I am talking about their recent announcments about PowerShell and Bash. Again, I know nothing, so maybe it has no impact on this project, but I figured I would ask.
https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/powershell-is-open-sourced-and-is-available-on-linux/
Microsoft's open source port of .NET Core would allow Logos resources to be downloaded and indexed.
However, WPF (Windows Presentation Foundation) road map does not include open source =>
https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/dotnet/2014/11/12/the-roadmap-for-wpf/
Without open source alternative for WPF, the Logos, Verbum, and Noet client applications for Windows cannot be displayed.
points out that porting WPF from Windows to open source is impractical.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Perhaps an open source system for user books, but the Linux version of Logos has to allow the publishers and Logos itself to make money so they can continue development and pay their employees.
If Logos could be made to work in WINE all would be well. I suspect that it's the security aspects that cause Logos to fail. If a Linux coded program could run as a proprietary application - basically a book and payment SAFE and hook into the Windows program under WINE for Logos, or an open source version of Logos.
The difficult part is getting a high quality program running in Linux. Linux has so many superior features that I'm not going to sing it's praises, but I will say that I have a proprietary Office Suite, and OCR program, printer drivers, and modem (dial up) drivers that I have to pay for - not much but about $150, and I pay because they are better than the free drivers. They're inexpensive because of the free competition but also because they're popular purchases.
Having Logos in Windows would mean I could completely cut the cord with Windows, the ONLY thing I need Windows 10 for in Logos.
So 99% of the time I run Linux and in the morning for bible study, I run Windows so I can run Logos. Then I reboot and my computer stays in Linux. I do like the fact that if I have to do something in Linux, I don't have to buy a $150 program just for that one job. Linux has everything of decent but not specialist quality available for free, and a very few apps for specialist quality that are sold for moderate and expensive prices. I have a few of the moderate and would not hesitate to buy the expensive ones if I needed them and could afford them!
My server runs Linux and has been up for several years without a crash.
Best wishes,
David
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David J. Ring, Jr. said:
If Logos could be made to work in WINE all would be well. ...
Open source community does not have an alternative for WPF (Windows Presentation Foundation) so WINE is not viable for the Logos, Verbum, and NOET windows applications that use WPF for client interaction and display.
David J. Ring, Jr. said:Having Logos in Windows would mean I could completely cut the cord with Windows, the ONLY thing I need Windows 10 for in Logos.
Logos Now subscribers have access to https://app.logos.com that Faithlife Corporation is developing to provide online web browser application access to your library, which would be usable on many platforms, including open source distributions.
If hardware has enough resources, then one option is using Oracle's Virtual Box to run Windows 10 (with WPF) and Logos in a virtual machine on an open source distribution.
Another option is a refurbished Windows 10 desktop from Micro Center for $ 99.99
=> http://www.microcenter.com/product/461521/ThinkCentre_M58_Desktop_Computer_Off_Lease_Refurbished
that is configured for remote desktop use from open source. The Lenovo M58 bios has an option for headless "server" operation plus has two open memory slots so RAM can be upgraded from 4 GB. For Logos use, would recommend replacing 250GB hard disk with a Solid State Disk: e.g.
240GB => http://www.microcenter.com/product/465269/240GB_SSDNow_UV400_25_SSD for $ 54.99
OR 480GB => http://www.microcenter.com/product/460569/480GB_SATA_III_60_Gb-s_25_Solid_State_Drive_(SSD) for $ 109.99
FYI: Clonezilla could be useful for copying disk partitions. Replacing 250 GB disk with 240 GB SSD means using Windows 10 to shrink C: partition by 10 GB before cloning.
David J. Ring, Jr. said:The difficult part is getting a high quality program running in Linux.
Apple includes many open source projects in macOS => https://www.apple.com/opensource/
The macOS kernel is a BSD variant => https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/darwin-kernel
Logos, Verbum, and Noet have macOS high quality applications. Caveat: macOS hardware models are long overdue for refresh.
LibreOffice is a quality open source office suite => https://www.libreoffice.org/ that can be used on macOS, open source distrubutions, and Windows.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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I have been watching this thread and keeping up with this issue for a long time. The only way to use Logos under Linux is in a VM. I have run Logos in VMware and in Virtualbox. Performance is better in VMware. However, KVM beats VMware and Virtualbox for performance. For those of you who are looking to run Logos in a VM, try running Windows under KVM. It really does perform quite a bit better. Of course you will take a performance hit, however, given modern computing speed/performance - the hit isn't too bad.
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aaylnx said:
However, KVM beats VMware and Virtualbox for performance.
Found an example of enabling KVM in VirtualBox 5.0 that improved performance => https://github.com/geerlingguy/drupal-vm/issues/212
VirtualBox has paravirtualization options => https://www.virtualbox.org/manual/ch10.html#gimproviders that includes KVM and Hyper-V.
VirtualBox 5.1.0 announcement on 12 Jul 2016 => https://blogs.oracle.com/virtualization/entry/oracle_vm_virtualbox_5_14 included
[quote]
Improved Performance: Significantly improved performance for multi-CPU virtual machines and networking.
Apologies: not know how significant of performance improvement.
Thankful for VirtualBox being actively maintained by Oracle, which is free for personal use while Enterprise edition has commercial license and support.
aaylnx said:The only way to use Logos under Linux is in a VM.
Thankful for https://app.logos.com being developed. To use all Logos capabilities in an open source distribution on one hardware host, currently need a VM.
If using two hardware hosts, then one can run an open source distribution while the other runs Windows (or macOS). On the open source host, can use a remote desktop client (e.g. NoMachine NX) => http://www.techradar.com/us/news/software/applications/7-of-the-best-linux-remote-desktop-clients-716346 Caveat: reliable network is needed between the hardware hosts for remote desktop control (so Logos running on your Windows box is being used on your open source distribution).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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aaylnx said:
I have been watching this thread and keeping up with this issue for a long time. The only way to use Logos under Linux is in a VM. I have run Logos in VMware and in Virtualbox. Performance is better in VMware. However, KVM beats VMware and Virtualbox for performance. For those of you who are looking to run Logos in a VM, try running Windows under KVM. It really does perform quite a bit better. Of course you will take a performance hit, however, given modern computing speed/performance - the hit isn't too bad.
I completely agree with your assessment; KVM is faster than any other hypervisor currently available on Linux, free or not.
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"Our solution for Linux users will likely be our web app at app.logos.com. If it's full-featured enough, will this meet your needs? Or is offline support a concern?"
Offline support is a HUGE concern. Generally, I think just having search and most basic access is the important part for starters.
Also, Ubuntu/Linux is the future. It continually grows its market share every year while other platforms shrink.
And, Ubuntu/Linux is so easy for your part. Theoretically, you could just provide a basic SDK for login-security and the growing community of Ubuntu users might do most of the programming and maintenance themselves via GitHub... So, the Logos engine for Ubuntu could be "open source" with the content or some cloud features as the proprietary part. And, why not allow the engine to read epub or "open" versions of books for people who want to write their own stuff and share with other Logos customers?
If you cool people at Logos are too busy, then developing for Ubuntu is actually perfect for you because the Ubuntu community does actually gladly work together to make and change their own software. Give us an SDK to access our secure-purchased stuff and let the community write an "open source" engine. Give up some control of the engine itself, or let people at least contribute to a GitHub project that you approve, so that you can reach more people. Like the gospel, let the people work in community. :-)
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...One way you could start is to create a github.com account with a "logos" project, then put the word out "we need community developers" and the people you need will just show up and guide and help free of charge and the whole thing might not even cost you a dime. Ubuntu users freely receive, so they freely give. Proprietary content, community-driven "open source" engine.
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"Our solution for Linux users will likely be our web app at app.logos.com. If it's full-featured enough, will this meet your needs? Or is offline support a concern?"
I did not search online to find this, but I did go to app.logos.com and I logged in. It looks like access using the cloud / online only solution requires a subscription. Unsure if this subscription makes the books that I paid for available, all books, or some small subset. They do offer one month free to find out how well it works for you, but it is useless from my classroom since I do not have reliable internet from their.
When I know that I have more time, I will take a look, but, with no extra information I am hesitant. So, if y'all have a lit with information on what this makes available and the fees, let me know.
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Andrew said:
It looks like access using the cloud / online only solution requires a subscription.
Correct - access requires a Logos Now or Logos Cloud membership subscription
Andrew said:Unsure if this subscription makes the books that I paid for available, all books, or some small subset
The majority of books - there may be some that can't be offered in this way
Andrew said:since I do not have reliable internet from their.
That would make it a non-workable solution for you
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Has anyone tried using Logos in ReactOS? I know React is not quite stable yet but it might be an option going forward.
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The reason that I want Linux isn't so much that I don't want to pay for an operating system, it's because I have a rock solid operating system, and if I need a program to do something once, I'm not obliged to spend $100 for a program just to improve contrast in a photograph, we have GIMP (and GIMP for Windows!) for that. If I need to edit a pdf file, I can use a open source program and do it, no cost to me.
I don't mind paying for good programs, I paid Softmaker for their Office program - about $60.00, I have an improved printer driver, $30.00, plus I've bought some fonts, drivers for dial-up modem from non-open source company, and other stuff for about $200.
But Linux is stable, I have a music server and it's been running for two years without crashing.
Linux is very fast even on my old hardware, dual core processor at 2MHz with 4 GB RAM.
I use Linux 99% of the time, but I have paid for two copies of Windows 10 for my two computers, laptop and server/desktop for total $200.
Plus the command line in Linux does things that are more or less cumbersome or impossible with a graphical program and it does things fast.
I only turn on Windows to read my Logos books, then I boot back into Linux.
The performance on my old hardware in Windows for Logos is sluggist at times but not too bad, but I have a feeling that if this was done in Linux it would be very fast.
But going to ReactOS would be to add to the problem. If I wanted to use ReactOS, I'd just run Windows.
Linux also is so much easier to maintain, I don't have to scan for viruses every day, I don't have browser hijackings, if I'm searching for information, I can use links -g or w3m browser and not be followed by twenty tracking cookies.
Im just sick of haiving my Windows computers hijacked, infected, filled with all sorts of malware - even if I just click on an interesting news story!
But NO to ReactOS. It's Windows in different clothes.
I don't want Windows where modifying dynamic linked libraries (dll files) makes your software work only to give other software have problems.
Linux just works, and it works very well!
David
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One question. How is WPF running on the Mac for the Mac version of the product?
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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus,
Have you used the aforementioned VM technologies to run Logos w/in Windows on Linux? I've used Virtualbox, VMware, and KVM. I have not used Xen. I would be interested in hearing from anyone who has run Logos under Windows in Xen to hear about performance. From experience, I can say that KVM beats Virtualbox (by a mile) and VMware (by not as much, but still significant). The difference in terms of pure subjective feeling is huge. Under Virtualbox, Logos is incredibly unresponsive. In terms of stats, I found that my idle VMware image running Logos would consume 30-40% my CPU, whereas Logos running under an idle KVM image often is under 10% - sometimes just over that. When using the VM, VMware was often between 300-400% (this is a multicore CPU mind you), whereas KVM would typically be under 100. Sometimes to rose to the 200's under KVM when things got really busy. I don't remember stats on memory, but I suspect there was a substantial difference.
My suspicion is that KVM is always going to perform better than some of these other competitors, because it's all completely open sourced and its all native to the Linux kernel. You don't have to do any building/loading of kernel modules as you do with VMware and Virtualbox. The KVM guys (fueled by a lot of Red Hat engineers I think) are just working closer to the kernel, and the open source nature of their code is probably going to always let them identify and fix various performance problems more throughly than their competitors.
If anyone is having problems generating a Windows vm using KVM, you might try installing via Gnome Boxes. Gnome Boxes uses KVM. If you use Ubuntu, it is available in the repositories. It makes installing Windows very, very easy. If you want, you can then actually then run the image created under Gnome Boxes with Virt-Manager (the KVM graphical manager). Virt-Manager will let you configure some things that you can't (currently) do under Gnome Boxes like running a dual monitor VM.
BTW, my KVM Windows guest running Logos runs on a 2012 I7 machine with 8gigs of memory. It's not that beefy. I'm looking forward to building a new machine in the not so distant future, which should offer significant performance improvements.
For those people on this thread who would like Logos to opensource their engine so that a build could be made for Linux, that's a great idea, but I wouldn't hold your breath. In my opinion Logos hasn't shown any interest in doing something like this. I would be happy to be proven wrong, but I just don't see it. Logos seems much more interested in their web app. I've used it. Honestly, I'm not holding my breath for that thing either. It has a LONG way to go in terms of gaining feature parity with the desktop app. Again, this is unfortunate in many ways but the best way to run Logos on a Linux box is in a vm - arguably KVM.
If you have a spare machine that you want to dedicate to Windows and Logos, a really good way to get remote access is to use Remote Desktop (RDP) which is built into Windows (sadly only Windows Professional and above). There are other remote access options out there, but I feel that RDP simply has no real rivals. It feels native using it remotely. On Linux Remmina is a great RDP client. I regularly access my KVM'd version of Windows from my Chromebook using Remmina (Remmina is installed under Crouton, a chrooted version of Linux that you can install on a Chromebook). Performance is not bad at all using that setup.
Chime in if you have any questions about these matters. I will try to respond.
Adam
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TCBlack said:
Mac version of the product has different graphical user interface code since WPF (Windows Presentation Foundation) is only available in Windows (with graphical calls to Windows DirectX). Open source community does not have an alternative for WPF => http://www.mono-project.com/docs/gui/wpf/ (Silverlight subset of WPF is available on several platforms)
Mac version uses Mono for .NET code that is shared with Windows => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/13210/102596.aspx#102596 and => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/12648/99060.aspx#99060
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Since I don't have a clue, I'm going to ask:
Would it potentially be possible to modify the Mac version of the GUI stuff, instead of the Windows version, to create a Linux version? If not, why not?
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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James said:
Has anyone tried using Logos in ReactOS? I know React is not quite stable yet but it might be an option going forward.
Welcome [:D]
Concur ReactOS may be an option going forward, depends on .NET Framework compatibility with Logos Bible Software. Apologies since have not (yet) tried ReactOS.
Wikipedia article => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReactOS includes clean room reverse engineering of Windows Server 2003.
ReactOS FAQ => http://www.reactos.org/joining/faqs
ReactOS FAQ said:Ok..so what's ReactOS?
ReactOS is a free and open source operating system written from scratch. It's design is based on Windows in the same way Linux is based on Unix, however ReactOS is _not_ linux. ReactOS looks and feels like Windows, is able to your run Windows software and your Windows drivers, and is familiar for Windows users.
What are the differences between Windows and ReactOS?
There are mainly two. Firstly ReactOS is open source. Secondly ReactOS is Free. Also Windows (especially the newer versions) are known to monitor all your activity by default. So if you're concerned about your privacy or just don't want to share any personal info, we promise (and you can check our source code) that we don't track any of your data.
So...can I install ReactOS and run any software compatible with Windows on it?
That's the idea. However we highly recommend to check if your favourite apps run by trying them and reporting either your success with the community, or any problems you encounter with our task tracker. ReactOS is still an on-going project and not all the apps and drivers run perfect on it just now. The best way to check the compatibility is to install ReactOS inside a virtual machine ( a step by step and video guide can be found here) and try things for yourself. There are tons of pieces of software and, as you can imagine it's is impossible for us to try and to track them all.
June 2016 bug fix in ReactOS 4.1 enabled .NET Framework 4.0 installation => https://jira.reactos.org/browse/CORE-11266
Keep Smiling [:)]
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SineNomine said:
Would it potentially be possible to modify the Mac version of the GUI stuff, instead of the Windows version, to create a Linux version? If not, why not?
+1 [Y] concur with question about modifying Mac version of GUI for open source distribution(s). As a volunteer, not know Faithlife's technical reason(s) for why not.
Cocoa Programming on Ubuntu blog post on 9 Jun 2013 => https://cocoaallocinit.com/2013/06/09/cocoa-programming-on-ubuntu/
Earlier in this thread on 11 Feb 2011 => https://community.logos.com/forums/p/121/220445.aspx#220445
Instead of trying to get Windows user interface to run on Linux (WPF still not supported => http://www.mono-project.com/WPF ),
Wonder about running Mac OS X (Cocoa) interface on Linux ? => http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/Writing_portable_code
Keep Smiling
Couple years earlier in this thread on 3 Aug 2009 => https://community.logos.com/forums/p/121/4677.aspx#4677
William Laky said:Logos should go in the direction of cloud computing like the rest of the world. I am sure that they have already considered it. Sites like the ESV study Bible, etc, are where it will be at in the next few years.
- Bill
Faithlife now offers Logos Cloud => https://logoscloud.com that includes a Beta Web Browser => The Logos Web App: FAQ
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Amen! And, Amen! A thousand times AMEN!
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React OS has one problem: It is unique.
Fedora is built on Linux, but has similar problems because of central control. Everything depends on RedHat customers and CentOS "testers".
Debian-Ubuntu is built on Linux, but it has a HUGE COMMUNITY. So, it doesn't all depend on just a few people to make it good. That's why it dominates.
...that said... I say let the community decide. If the ReactOS community wants to do the leg work and make a Logos version, Logos should let them. Try it out. That's Marketing Strategy 101: Everything must be tested and allowed to succeed and prove itself.
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I REALLY agree with what you and Steven Yu have to say. And, I feel the same way.
The way is: The good people at Logos simply ALLOW the community permission to do it; an open source engine that can keep proprietary purchases secure.
Faithlife should know: Not having Logos on my Ubuntu desktop pushes me to become dependent on other Bible software. Linux grows every year, Ubuntu (built on Debian) is the most widely-used. Windows is despised and is losing the market. If another Debian Bible package becomes more useful before Logos wakes up, I won't use Logos anymore. And, I know that I'm not that special; many others will do the same.
Not to toot my own horn, but I just made this video, adapted from my Mandarin version, to help people install Ubuntu. I get great feedback because people are STARVING to escape from Windows and use Ubuntu.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMvaUCuePW4If Faithlife will just ALLOW the Linux-Debian-Ubuntu community to make a desktop engine themselves, even not the prettiest, but just to have basic access to the purchased library, links, searches... then Logos may actually grow its customer base and ride the swelling Ubuntu tsunami. And, all the work would be done for them. Faithlife wouldn't need to invest money.
Here is a plan to make it happen:
1. Logos starts a GitHub profile: such as "logos" or "logosbible" namespace and "Logos for Linux" as the name. And, add a "logos-deb" repo (for Debian). Maybe a couple more... logos-wine (windows-based to work with the Wine library), logos-deb-macbase (based from mac version), logos-rpm (fedora)... Just start the repos and see who wants to add to them. I'm sure David Ring might be glad to help Faithlife do it at no charge, ask him :-)2. Logos starts an AskUbuntu profile and just announces "We hear you! We want to let you guys make Logos for Linux! Here is our GitHub. Help us!"
3. Follow the GitHub pull requests daily, hire/approve (no money) project leaders to approve requests so Faithlife doesn't have to add any work to their full plate.
4. Logos grows its customer base at zero investment. As Ubuntu continues to grow, so does Logos because they are on the Ubuntu train.
5. Faithlife and the Logos team have to worry about all the speaking requests they get to explain "How we used Ubuntu to make money and get more people studying the Bible." They appear on talk shows and more people learn about them, all because they were smart enough to get "Logos for Linux".
;-) Linux-Love to you all!
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Donovan R. Palmer said:I have read in a number of places that Mac is about 10% of the market share and Linux is 1%.You can look at this website to dig around for what you want: http://marketshare.hitslink.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=8
August 2016 shows desktop group of "Linux" market usage is now 2.11 % along with OS X share down to 7.36 %
Desktop Web browser share shows Google Chrome at 53.97 % in August 2016
Chrome OS can be used for Chrome Brower plus ChromeBooks are relatively inexpensive and selling more than Windows laptops (13 Aug 2015 article) => http://www.zdnet.com/article/npd-chromebooks-outsell-windows-laptops/ and outselling Apple Mac models in the US as of May 2016 => https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/may/23/chromebook-mac-google-pc-sales
Hence, suspect "Linux" market share increase from 1 % in Jun 2009 to 2.11 % in Aug 2016 primarily reflects growing ChromeBook usage, which could be a partial motivator for Faithlife development of Logos Web App (currently in beta for Logos Now members).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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David J. Ring, Jr. said:
I only turn on Windows to read my Logos books, then I boot back into Linux.
Logos Now members have access to Logos Web App (currently Beta as features are being ported) that allows Logos book reading plus more:
Also could use http://biblia.com for reading Logos books.
Caveat: Logos Web App and Biblia provide access to mobile resources.
David J. Ring, Jr. said:Linux just works, and it works very well!
For open source, "Linux" tends to be associated with GNU Public License. Other open source distributions have different licensing: e.g. Berkeley Software Distribution (BSD). Apple includes over 200 open source projects in OS X (macOS) along with using an open source kernel that also works well; the mach kernel in Darwin is a BSD derivative.
David J. Ring, Jr. said:
The reason that I want Linux isn't so much that I don't want to pay for an operating system, it's because I have a rock solid operating system, and if I need a program to do something once, I'm not obliged to spend $100 for a program just to improve contrast in a photograph, we have GIMP (and GIMP for Windows!) for that. If I need to edit a pdf file, I can use a open source program and do it, no cost to me.
GIMP also works on OS X (macOS) and open source distributions. The "Preview" application included in OS X (macOS) is poorly named since it can edit/annotate a pdf.
Caveat: a legal license of OS X (macOS) needs corresponding Apple hardware purchase. Apple Mac models are long overdue for hardware refresh, reading rumors of later this year, which should reduce prices of older refurbished models.
Thankful for a refurbished 2011 MacBook Air (1.7 GHz i5 with 4 GB RAM) that decently runs Logos 7 (with an external USB for resource file storage since internal SSD lacks space for my library; symbolic link for one resource folder reliably works). Albeit quick exit from car caused USB drive to split apart. Thankfully USB drive still works and shell could be snapped back together.
David J. Ring, Jr. said:Plus the command line in Linux does things that are more or less cumbersome or impossible with a graphical program and it does things fast.
Terminal application in OS X (macOS) has command line interface with choice of shell, default is bash with option of: csh, ksh, sh, tcsh, zsh
Cygwin is open source for Windows that provides command line interface: e.g. bash, csh, mksh, tcsh ...
Command switch compatibility depends on the command implementation, which is also true for open source distributions.
David J. Ring, Jr. said:Linux also is so much easier to maintain,
In OS X (macOS), the Apple Store has effectively integrated a package manager for updating the operating system (with an interface designed for non-technical user). Depends on the security update, both open source and OS X (macOS) can need system reboot. Like open source distributions, upgrading and patching OS X (macOS) is free.
David J. Ring, Jr. said:Im just sick of haiving my Windows computers hijacked, infected, filled with all sorts of malware ...
By default, Windows 10 includes a key logger enabled to send stuff. Privacy settings allow user to choose "Off" in the graphical interface (not know if privacy setting is effective or just eye candy).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Hey, Mr. Keep Smiling...
I think you may have missed a few points. And, I want your input on these...
David, and others have concurred, said he needed a LOCAL client, not cloud. So, the web app doesn't solve his/our problem.
Also, Mac OS X and Windows having command line options doesn't help someone working at LInux all day.
...He knows Linux, uses command line Linux, and wants command line LINUX to help him use Logos. He wants Logos to join his working world all day. And, his Linux work probably includes a church website and email.
Also, if Apple can get open source, then Logos has no reason not to LET LINUX PEOPLE MAKE LOGOS FOR LINUX ON THEIR OWN.
...The "open source" idea isn't because we are looking for open source, but that LOGOS CAN ALLOW IT on Linux.
Also, if GIMP can run on Mac and Windows, then Logos ought to also.
...That is the immediate thought of us awesome Linux users who keep your local church websites up and running, when you mention GIMP.
See, we Linux people (who keep so many church websites up and running) kind of already know all these things. And, we are glad to help you understand. We are kind of evangelists about the awesome things that let us help the Church so.
We suspect that Faithlife doesn't know about Linux, and you don't seem to understand our world either. With love, we are thrilled to help you understand what keeps your websites going so smoothly.
SEPARATELY......
About Linux at 2%. This Wiki reports over 20%. I am genuinely curious on your comments. I like truth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems
How about web servers? This survey puts some Apache tools staggeringly high. This implies a lot of local churches.
https://news.netcraft.com/archives/2016/02/22/february-2016-web-server-survey.html
So, your church web guy, like David, is making your church site awesome all day long, but he can't use Logos...
...because Mac has open source, but Logos doens't? ...because GIMP is on Windows, Mac, and Linux, but Logos isn't? That is your implication by bringing it up. This seems strange to we Linux people who keep your church websites running for you.
But, now I'm curious. What is Logos' market share?
...Given that Linux users love helping people, churches, and businesses with useful software so much, Logos could gain a lot of users, like David's friends, but who have thrown up their hands from being ignored.
In case you also missed this part, again, we want Logos to retain proprietary capability, only the engine itself to be open source so the LINUX COMMUNITY can do it themselves at no cost.
Do you know? Our Linux friends who develop your church websites are already finding open source software to use instead of Logos? I don't like that. David doesn't like that. David and I want Logos to hurry up and LET THE LINUX COMMUNITY make Logos for Linux so Logos doesn't get replaced by Linux's 20% and growing open source free-ness from the 70% and growing community of LInux people running church websites for you.
We all love Logos. But we all love Linux a little more because it's like salvation: price is paid and we spread the good news.
And we love you Mr. Keep Smiling,
Jesse Steele
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Jesse,
One other advantage of Linux is that it supports the latest hardware. I had been thinking of going Mac but Linux just works so we'll. No waiting like Apple. I'd be happy in a command line interface all day, do i get most of my work done that way. Even coding a website in HTML sends tedious, when you choose it rather than using a graphical interface the pages load much faster and better.
I have a feeling some think Linux users don't want to pay, there may be some but not me, there is a place for open source no cost and proprietary software. If Faithlife could develop a safe that could handle giving me the boss I have paid for and keep those who haven't paid for those books oit, I'd be very be very happy.
if the rest of the program was open source, that would be amazing.
Microsoft gave Logos a tremendous boost up with their tools for programmers, but Windows is just so overly complicated the more it tries to present itself as simple.
Best wishes,
David
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Jesse Steele said:
David, and others have concurred, said he needed a LOCAL client, not cloud. So, the web app doesn't solve his/our problem.
Concur Logos Web App does not solve offline use, especially where internet connectivity is unreliable or slow.
Logos wiki has Logos 7 => Online Only that shows many features that are unusable offline.
Jesse Steele said:Also, Mac OS X and Windows having command line options doesn't help someone working at LInux all day.
...He knows Linux, uses command line Linux, and wants command line LINUX to help him use Logos. He wants Logos to join his working world all day. And, his Linux work probably includes a church website and email.
Please elaborate on desired Logos integration with church website and email.
On 29 Jul 2016, Faithlife posted => New! Free church bulletin editor, online bulletins
Faithlife publishes many web sites => https://faithlife.com/about/what-we-do plus has a Proclaim forum => Proclaim: Church Presentation Software
OS X (mac OS) offers same command line work flow opportunities as a "LINUX" open source distribution plus can use Logos Bible Software.
Church website and email implies online access so Logos Web App should be viable for Linux use. Also website can freely use RefTagger, which has its own forum for discussion => RefTagger
Jesse Steele said:...because Mac has open source, but Logos doens't? ...because GIMP is on Windows, Mac, and Linux, but Logos isn't? That is your implication by bringing it up. This seems strange to we Linux people who keep your church websites running for you.
When porting Logos 4 from Windows to Mac, Faithlife developers choose to implement Apple's proprietary graphical interface and not cross platform like GIMP, Firefox, Chrome, ...
For sharing substantial .NET code base between Windows and OS X (mac OS), open source mono is used by Faithlife for Logos, Verbum, and Noet applications.
Jesse Steele said:
...The "open source" idea isn't because we are looking for open source, but that LOGOS CAN ALLOW IT on Linux.
Open source alternative is enabling OS X Cocoa application binaries to run on many open source distributions.
What makes OSX programs not runnable on Linux? => http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/3322/what-makes-osx-programs-not-runnable-on-linux includes link to Darling => http://www.darlinghq.org/project-status/ that still needs many hours of community development. After fours years not yet viable for an application like Logos.
Logos wiki => Mac Release Notes and History shows many years were needed to port WPF graphical interface to Apple Cocoa, essentially from Logos 4.0 Alpha to Logos 5.0 release.
Jesse Steele said:
About Linux at 2%. This Wiki reports over 20%. I am genuinely curious on your comments. I like truth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems
Stat Counter July 2016 shows desktop browser usage at 1.54 % for Linux. 0.35 % for Chrome OS, and 9.61 % for OS X. Noted 1.54 % + 0.35 % = 1.89 % for "Linux" grouping, which is about 2 %.
Stack Overflow survey of English speaking developers shows 21.7 % Linux Kernel based usage, which is less than 26.2 % for Apple OS X and less than 52.02 % overall for Windows (with Windows 10 having 20.6 % usage) along with trend for developers moving away from Windows to an operating system with an open source kernel.
Video game platform Stream shows Mac OS with 3.55 % share and Linux with 0.95 % share in January 2016.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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OK. Great. Looks like Keep Smiling 4 Jesus knows a lot.
So... When will Faithlife give the OK for the Linux community to develop it themselves?
...Never suggested Logos for websites and email. But, the people who do web for much of the Church are good to have as friends and to listen to since they give software recommendations to boards, etc. But, it sounds like a good idea. Whoever develops Bible desktop to work command line to our Linux websites first wins. Anyone?
Logos?
Can We the Linux People make Logos for LInux for you at no cost?
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David, I totally agree with you on many, many things. I'm JesseSteele.com. Hit me up. I'm interested in your work. A lot of Linux is about compatibility. And, what do you think about Mr. Smiling's suggestion for a desktop Bible app the plugs-in to an Apache website on the back end? I'd love to take my Logos work and embed it in my website with a Logos for Linux app running on it. I could do my Daily Greek Devo I've always wanted!
How about just requesting to build a "Logos proprietary repo" module for Xiphos Bible Guide in the deb repo? OR, just a DRM-friendly add-on of sorts that connects to Logos repos. I think that might be simpler in the meanwhile.
I have no idea how to build that right now. I'm working on other projects. I just want permission from Faithlife for interested people to do it themselves. Permission is the start. Logos doesn't need to invest.
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Jesse Steele said:
Whoever develops Bible desktop to work command line to our Linux websites first wins. Anyone?
What functionality is desired for Bible desktop command line for web sites ?
Does your web site(s) use RefTagger ? => RefTagger Support FAQ
Jesse Steele said:I'd love to take my Logos work and embed it in my website with a Logos for Linux app running on it. I could do my Daily Greek Devo I've always wanted!
Have you looked at http://transliterate.com ? http://bible.logos.com ? http://books.logos.com ? (all published by Faithlife)
Logos Web App can be used for "More Light on the Path" with New International Greek Commentary on Luke
Realizing Logos Web App has potential for cross site scripting to embed Logos in other web site(s).
Something to ponder is publishing your own web site with Logos capabilities seems to enable one library to be used by more than one human being, which does not mesh well with EULA => https://www.logos.com/support/eula
Jesse Steele said:
David, and others have concurred, said he needed a LOCAL client, not cloud. So, the web app doesn't solve his/our problem.
My volunteer user speculation is potential of Logos Web App being embedded in an application that uses .NET engine on OS X (mac OS) for offline library access on open source distributions. Noticed Chromium Embedded Framework (CEF) has been incorporated in applications on Windows and OS X (mac OS).
Jesse Steele said:So... When will Faithlife give the OK for the Linux community to develop it themselves?
What is the profitable business incentive for Faithlife ? Documenting code for open source development along with answering community questions and testing community contributions has costs and time.
Seem to remember community support for a code weavers bounty pledge to port Logos 4 to Linux being less than 1 % of estimated cost (about $ 1,250 in pledges from open source community). Hence, what is the motivation for significant "free" development by the community?
From 11 Sep 2009 reply => https://community.logos.com/forums/p/121/9528.aspx#9528
trahajje said:I doubt we'll see a 100% cloud experience with Logos anytime soon
Here "soon" turned out to start almost six years later => The Logos Web App: FAQ
Considering complexity of graphical interface, am anticipating years for Logos Web App to reach parity with Logos 7 (or 8).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 
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