Linux version of Logos Bible Software
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Thanks Nicholas,
I understand how it works now.
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Matthew C Jones:You
are very kind to point this out. I personally have not gone mobile with
iPhone or used Biblia.com yet. I have heard not all Logos resources are
available on mobile devices and having the
icon really helps. Thank you.Yes - you're right; not all resources are available on mobile devices
(or on the web via biblia.com - note: this site works differently on
mobile devices to on the desktop!) But Logos, if memory serves me right,
keep speaking about how they're hard at work trying to increase the
number of available resources.Speaking for myself, just about all of my resources are available...
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Steve, Logos has posted a bounty (money) if the creators of wine can cause Logos to function with Wine. Unfortunately, Logos uses many of the advanced windows features that are simply not supported by Logos and the money is not sufficient to cover the costs of updating Wine to cover those specific features. If the Linux community followed this example and also posted a bounty, then the amount would perhaps be sufficient to update Wine.This seems a bit disingenuous, doesn't it?
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How so?
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Instead of trying to get Windows user interface to run on Linux (WPF still not supported => http://www.mono-project.com/WPF ),
Wonder about running Mac OS X (Cocoa) interface on Linux ? => http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/Writing_portable_code
Keep Smiling [:)]
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I swapped from Windows to Ubuntu Linux some years ago. I grew tired of paying for the privilege of "testing" Windows for years. The last security update I allowed under my old WinXP setup disabled my entire USB subsystem. I never got it back and had to buy a card to use USB devices. Then Vista came along and that was the end. Windows 7 is OK, but I'm never going back. I've given M$ all the money I intend to give them. I love Linux - not just because it's free, but that doesn't hurt. I have several commercial programs running under Linux, including VMWare Workstation and Moneydance. I've never minded paying for quality software, even on Linux.
One comment on operating system surveys. Windows tends to be overcounted because they count copies shipped, not used. Yeah, I and others have Windows copies but don't run it as our primary OS. Some also buy computers w/Windows preinstalled (because with rare exception that's the only way to buy them) and then load something else, usually Linux, to replace it. That shows up in the stats as an active Windows system. Linux tends to be undercounted because there's no good way to track copies being used.
I now run Logos 4 on a WinXP SP3 virtual machine under VMWare Workstation 7. It works fine. I build my latest PC with virtual machines in mind using a quad-core processor and 8 GB of RAM. I was already well set in Linux when I upgraded from Logos 3 to 4. Even so, I find myself using Xiphos and the Internet about 90% of the time now, largely because it's so convenient. I've been a loyal Logos user for over 15 years, but this is probably my last version unless the next one runs under WINE or Crossover. I've already stopped buying new books under it. It pains me to say that and I say it with no ill will. Every company has to make their own business decisions. But I'm not spending any more money on a program that cannot be run under my primary operating system.
I suggested some time back that the next version of Logos be coded in Java, which would make it truly cross-platform. The same code would run in Windows, MacOS, and Linux, saving the cost of programming for both Windows and Mac at the very least. Depending on how it's done, it could even run on Android, Windows Mobile, etc. That's the approach successfully taken by Moneydance and other cross-platform applications. I've heard talk, though, that Logos is targeting .NET for their next version, which again would make it Windows-only. I don't see the business logic in that.
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Hi, just wondered if this has been brought forward into 2011?
Steven Yu said:Once again, I am pushing foward for a Linux version of Logos, a lot of user are using Linux, and we have been struggling to break away from Windows, but Logos has always been the single software that require us to either dual boot or run a virtual machine with Linux OS.
Anyone share the same view?
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Andy Warren said:
Hi, just wondered if this has been brought forward into 2011?
Steven Yu said:Once again, I am pushing foward for a Linux version of Logos, a lot of user are using Linux, and we have been struggling to break away from Windows, but Logos has always been the single software that require us to either dual boot or run a virtual machine with Linux OS.
Anyone share the same view?
Welcome to the Logos forums [:D]
Logos Codeweavers Bounty Pledge is still less than 1 % of amount needed for Logos 4 port => http://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/browse/name/?app_id=321
Logos 4 on Windows uses Windows Presentation Foundation (WPF), which Mono Project has no plans to implement => http://www.mono-project.com/WPF
Once Logos ships Android application, not know if Android emulator http://developer.android.com/guide/developing/tools/emulator.html could be used on linux.
Currently, linux users can use http://Biblia.com (web browser access to many Logos Library resources) and run Windows in a Virtual Machine (only needs a valid Windows Operating System license for virtual use) since free Virtual Machine managers are available for Linux (if only using Windows for Logos 4, could disable many Windows services, and change home page to www.logos.com). With viable virtual machine option, business case to port Logos to linux is lacking.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Should it be a matter of having to justify the port from a business point of view, though?
After all, Logos' work is really ministry - putting the Word of God and resources to aid God's people in the hands of God's people.
From that point of view, the question that should be asked is "Why deny access to Linux users or make them jump through hoops to get at Logos?" It's like forcing people to learn English in order to hear the gospel. Yes, Linux users are fewer, but we don't refuse to translate God's Word into a particular language because the number of people from that tribe/tongue/language/nation is too few.
Regards,
Nigel
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I don't know which will be harder: trying to get Logos to put out a native Linux version or trying to get the publishers to give permissions to The Sword Project. I think I'll be putting my effort into the second option for now.
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Nigel Cunningham said:
Should it be a matter of having to justify the port from a business point of view, though?
Earlier in this thread, Bob Pritchett replied => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/121/2501.aspx#2501
Also Bob Pritchett replied in another thread => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/2561/19235.aspx#19235 that includes "Linux users have a reputation for being Linux users because they don't like to pay for software at all."
Historical Note: on 15 Oct 2009, Code Weavers pledge was $1,793.90 (for 19 pledges), now is $ 2,357.90 (for 21 pledges), an increase of $ 564 in 1.5 years (no change in past 3 months).
Nigel Cunningham said:From that point of view, the question that should be asked is "Why deny access to Linux users or make them jump through hoops to get at Logos?" It's like forcing people to learn English in order to hear the gospel. Yes, Linux users are fewer, but we don't refuse to translate God's Word into a particular language because the number of people from that tribe/tongue/language/nation is too few.
Suspect if find funding source of $ 1 million, then Logos would gladly port Logos 4 to linux (could pay Logos developers so they and their families can eat while working on linux code port for many months).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Paying for software isn't the model being used though. We're told we're paying for books, and only indirectly for the methods of viewing them.
As a long time (10 years +) Linux user, I can certainly tell you I've been paying Logos money. Not as much as some, but my Library is more than 2000 books. I'm sure this applies to other Linux Logos users too.
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This full-time Ubuntu Linux user would rather see Logos develop a comprehensive web interface to their content. I own Logos 3 and used it quite a bit before making the switch away from Windows. I would one again become a paying Logos customer if their software were to migrate to the web.
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Michael Yockey said:
This full-time Ubuntu Linux user would rather see Logos develop a comprehensive web interface to their content. I own Logos 3 and used it quite a bit before making the switch away from Windows. I would one again become a paying Logos customer if their software were to migrate to the web.
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Michael Yockey said:
This full-time Ubuntu Linux user would rather see Logos develop a comprehensive web interface to their content. I own Logos 3 and used it quite a bit before making the switch away from Windows. I would one again become a paying Logos customer if their software were to migrate to the web.
Welcome [:D]
Bob Pritchett posted Please try the user survey! which includes link to http://www.logos.com/usersurvey that has questions where Linux and Web comments could be noted.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Nigel,
I'm wondering how difficult it is to run the Android version of Libronix on other Linux versions, such as Ubundu. Of couse the beta version is still too new to compare with Logos 4 in Windows or Mac. But, this is getting Libronix involved in Linux.
Perry Webb
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Perry Webb said:
I'm wondering how difficult it is to run the Android version of Libronix on other Linux versions, such as Ubundu. Of couse the beta version is still too new to compare with Logos 4 in Windows or Mac. But, this is getting Libronix involved in Linux.
The same question was asked regarding Logos 4 Mac since OS X is built on BSD. But Android, like OS X, has lots of custom API's. In Android's case, they use a modified Linux kernel with a custom software stack. Android apps are built in Java, which might seem encouraging since Java is so universal, but there again many of the API's are specific to Android and wouldn't port to another OS.
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Somebody is almost sure to write some wrappers to allow Android apps to run on other Linux distros. The differences are just really not that numerous and the Linux community loves to do that sort of thing.
Maybe another/better question is: how hard would it be to run Android on my PC?
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Aaron Blumer said:
Maybe another/better question is: how hard would it be to run Android on my PC?
From an article => http://androidandme.com/2009/10/news/how-to-install-android-sdk-and-play-with-android-2-0-in-the-emulator/
followed link to Android SDK download page (Windows, Mac, or Linux) => http://developer.android.com/sdk/index.html
Once virtual device created, can try downloading Logos Android application => http://downloads.logos.com/Android/Logos/beta/index.html
Note: Logos URL for Android application is case sensitive.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Aaron Blumer said:
The differences are just really not that numerous....
Maybe another/better question is: how hard would it be to run Android on my PC?
Maybe another/better question is: how hard would it be for Logos to write a native Linux version if they already have an Android app?
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Maybe it is an idea for Logos to release a kind of API, and let the open source community build a Linux app based on that. That can be an API based on the Android/Ipad app, or on the Windows/Mac version which is build on .NET.
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It should be an ethical one. Windows and the like are literally killing ministries and non-profits. They have convinced so many people that the only way to do things is to pay for them. So ministries are putting all their money into expensive "out of the box" products that rarely work, when all they need is are open source solutions and developers and freedom. If Logos knew the computing ability of Linux, they would radically change their direction on this... and save their company some money.
You don't find a market for Linux, Mr. Pritchett, it simply exist.
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I really like this idea Simon.
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Dan, can you clarify? I might take you to be saying that ministries and non-profits should never pay for software. Also, what computing ability does Linux have that might cause Logos radically change their direction? What direction would they go? How would it save them money?
Are you saying that if Logos created a Linux version that enough people would purchase the product to pay for the development effort? It is certainly clear that not many people were willing to help post a bounty towards a working solution.
It is not clear to me how well an external API would work, but, it would be a nice start. Frankly, I was very sad that the Apple version was not developed using a cross platform solution (such as QT).
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Dan Guinn said:
If Logos knew the computing ability of Linux
I am sure they already do.
Dan Guinn said:they would radically change their direction on this...
Nope. Nobody uses Linux. Why waste time on it?
Dan Guinn said:and save their company some money.
It would cost Logos a considerable amount to make a non-viable product.
Dan Guinn said:Windows and the like are literally killing ministries and non-profits. They have convinced so many people that the only way to do things is to pay for them.
I believe that volunteers in ministry are a good thing. You are right... churches don't have to pay for everything. However, most churches do not have anyone who can adequately help them with their "out of the box" computers, let alone Linux. It would be bad stewardship for most churches to invest any time learning Linux.
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Dan Guinn said:
It should be an ethical one.
It is a practical issue. The Linux crowd can't even get Logos to work under WINE. Bob Pritchett has offered a reward to anyone who does make it possible. No matter how many penguins you toss out of a helicopter, you aren't going to get any of them to fly.
Dan Guinn said:Windows and the like are literally killing ministries and non-profits. They have convinced so many people that the only way to do things is to pay for them.
Hudson Taylor said, "God's work, done God's way, will never lack God's supply." Maybe God is not behind every venture that bears his name.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Giving my two cents...
First of all, it's not that "easy" to port Logos over to Linux. The development tools to get it over there aren't quite ready yet. It'd pretty much be a broken experience, even if the Logos team brought all of the finest Linux guys in to try to work on it. To get the back end over to Linux, some major things would have to happen first. I do work for WeatherBug, and our map engine is similar to Logos 4's engine, and we couldn't even get a simple map engine to sing on Linux. Imagine a huge library engine.
Market share is another issue, and so is the diversity (won't say fragmentation, since Linux isn't really fragmented, but diverse). If Logos were to "work" on Linux, they'd have to either ensure it works on just about every Linux distro out there (Red Hat, Fedora, Ubuntu, the possibilities are endless), or select certain distros to support, which would probably lead to someone getting upset that Logos didn't support their particular distro. It could be a mess. With Windows and OS X, Logos has a somewhat more simplified platform to work with.
And of course there are other options, one is virtualizing Windows like you're doing now. Another is getting a Mac, which is quite Linux like, and running some of your open-source goodness on OS X (I do this with a lot of my geeky weather apps). Plus, don't forget, you can read all of your Logos books on Linux without Windows. It's called Biblia.com. Runs in any web browser and contains your entire Logos library. It's searchable, and just works, anywhere you can browse the web. Instead of investing in a Java client (which would be really puny), or trying to support certain Linux distros, I'd rather see Logos invest where our world is heading anyway. The Cloud. Being able to walk up to any browser anywhere, type in my Logos credentials, and see and search all my books, is fantastic. Add some fancy HTML5-based automated reports and additional tools that draws on your current Logos settings, and it'd be ideal. Then no matter what Linux distro or platform you'd decide to use, your Logos would go with it.
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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Dan Guinn said:
are literally killing ministries and non-profits.
Welcome to the forums Dan. Fortunately what has happened to ministries in your experience, I have not seen.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Simon said:
Maybe it is an idea for Logos to release a kind of API, and let the open source community build a Linux app based on that. That can be an API based on the Android/Ipad app, or on the Windows/Mac version which is build on .NET.
Yes, even a closed-source API would be a good start. And even a closed development group (maybe off-site and on-line) to make a closed-source thing.
Open source would be a problem for Logos licenses. Books would be transferred through the API to more open things.
JesusChrist.ru - Russian Christian Portal, with free Bible software; Timh.ru - blog
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Well, there's the biblia API - but I don't think that allows the storage of any resources locally. (And if you can't do that, why not just use biblia).
What would really get the ball rolling would be if logos provided a mono/.net library for loading resources. Said library could take care of en-/de-cryption of resources, authentication of credentials etc. Being closed source wouldn't be a problem - as long as the API was documented, it would be possible to create a linux front-end. I'm guessing all this code already exists, and that separating it out/abstracting it into a general purpose library wouldn't take too many man-hours. (If it's nicely designed code, it might already be abstracted out....)
Will logos actually do this? Doubtful. But maybe if there was a developer agreement/licensing contract signed by anyone working on the code....
As for me, I haven't used logos4 in windows for *many* months - and use biblia (tweaked somewhat, I must admit!) exclusively.
Still dreaming of the complete package running in linux, though :-)
Nick
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