Again: Trapped feeling

So a couple times a year I find myself in this spot. When I bought Logos 4 in 2008 it was a huge purchase for a student starting seminary but I figured it was a good investment. Later that year I learned that way too many of those thousands of books in the packages were not acceptable resources. So I spent more money on quality commentaries, dictionaries, etc... And got my first taste of disappointment in the software.

During that first purchase the salesman led me to believe that updates to the program were part of what I was paying so much for. Logos 5 rolls around, and that of course turned out not to be true. Again, that feeling.

About once a year, I go through this stage. There is something I want (Tyndale Commentary Set this time around). Logos has it for $230... others have it for $99. Same feeling.

When do you decide it is time to just hang it up? The extra features and indexes and what have you rarely get use. Do I keep investing in this program because that is where all of my money is tied up?

Ugghhhh...

Thoughts?

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MJ. Smith

The extra features and indexes and what have you rarely get use.

If you run searches or use hover/click on references and footnotes you are using the indexing/tagging/labeling. And no, you don't pay for updates to the program ... you pay for resources that power new features. So if you get that "trapped feeling" - use your head not your gut. [8-|]

John Goodman

You can get that set in Logos for much less. I paid very little for it. I will to stick to forum rules but if you do a little googling you'll find it.

In terms of sticking with the platform I tell myself that it works out well on average. I can't have a similar library at such a low price any other way. There is the odd book which I could have gotten cheaper, sometimes considerably so, but overall I'm doing well.

Erwin Stull, Sr.

I am quite happy with Logos. It met me where I was, is with me where I am now, and I'm confident that it will be capable of being beside me where I am going. Some resources cost a little (and sometimes a lot) more than you can find elsewhere, but you will need to find value in the Logos platform in order to be ok with the cost. In the case of the Tyndale Commentaries, they do go on-sale from time to time for much less than the $230 (I think they were $129 no so long ago) and as has been mentioned, you may be able to find them in Libronix format by doing some research. By all means, you do not want to split your high cost resources using multiple platforms. In the long run that will bring the value of your system down and the cost up.

The bottom line is to only continue investing in something (anything) that you find value in. That will be the difference between it being a blessing or a curse. A question to ask yourself, is "am I just having a moment? Or is this a feeling that has indwelled itself in my spirit?".

Personally, I am biased towards Logos. I am comfortable with and like the platform, the company, the management, and the staff, but I know and understand that doesn't speak for everyone.

Be blessed, and have a happy new year showered with peace, prosperity, and well being. [:)]

mab

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/792938#Comment_792938

The only time I feel "trapped" in Logos is when I don't use it. Pretty much could be said of anything you put your time, money and intentions into something. When you use something everyday, you stop looking at what something costs and start valuing the use.

Logos 6 is so far ahead of what Logos 4 promised. Even without new features, the performance is much better.

GaoLu

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/792941#Comment_792941

For me, Logos has been an immensely liberating experience. I have trouble becoming giddy over it.

Hang around to get sale prices and you won't pay excessively.

Stick with one platform for major purchases. I use a little of this and that--a sort of smorgasboard for free stuff or stuff acquired over the years elsewhere. I even have a SQL Bible database with all kinds of other cool stuff and still roll-my-own queries from it, that I can't get any other way. Nowadays, I am trying to replace everything with Logos resources and wish I had started that since day 1.

JohnB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/792975#Comment_792975

Try Amazon in UK and USA for Tyndale on CD.

Why does no one seem to complain when Logos is less expensive than Amazon?????

Logos, can you consider price matching Amazon??

Daniel Bender

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/792926#Comment_792926

The extra features and indexes and what have you rarely get use.

If you run searches or use hover/click on references and footnotes you are using the indexing/tagging/labeling. And no, you don't pay for updates to the program ... you pay for resources that power new features. So if you get that "trapped feeling" - use your head not your gut.

[Y] Great advice

Shawn Drewett

Doug I think it's simply a matter of priorities. I very much wish I had back much of what I've spent on Logos products. Why? Because I use only utilize a small percentage of the resources I've purchased over my nearly 17 years of owning Logos products. Now I have a wife and 4 kids. I could use some of that money now! It's a thrill to buy new resources but consider your budget priorities. One year I used my entire bonus from my part time job to buy a commentary set which I found was not much help to me. The forums are good to get counsel as to exactly what is good for your particular studies. God bless your ministry.

Whyndell Grizzard

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/793069#Comment_793069

Yes- buyer beware- even with Logos- there are things you don't need.

Mike Childs

I reluctantly came to the conclusion that there are resources in which the Logos tagging is very important to me, and there are resources in which the tagging is not very important to me. I just want to read the text, or I can do a manual search.

For nearly 20 years I bought all my resources in Logos format. But now I do take into account the importantance of the tagging and the cost of the resources. Also, there are resources not available in Logos that I want. Therefore, I now have two Bible software programs on my computer. You know what, it is no problem to use them both. Alt - tab works really well.

I always prefer to buy from Logos. I have tens of thousands of dollars invested in Logos over about 25 years. They are my first choice. But they are no longer my only choice. That especially so if there are hundreds of dollars difference in the price.

Ronald Quick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/793070#Comment_793070

My experience is that it goes both ways. Sometimes I purchase resources I really want, only to find I that rarely use them. Other times I have discovered "hidden gems" in packages that I use frequently.

Everett Headley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/793078#Comment_793078

In response to OP: I too understand that feeling of trapped. However, when I bought Logos, they only other option out there at the time was PC Study Bible which was not as good as Logos. Now that I'm invested in Logos, I try to not think too much about the greener grass on the other side. I do think that Logos' pricing is inflated even with the much touted "value added." Where I feel most trapped is that Logos puts out products that have a gross amount of errors and the timetable to get them fixed is always in flux and never published. Then I feel trapped that the money I paid for a resource has been misappropriated. I pay for full, complete and continuing use of a resource.

Stephen Terlizzi

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/793076#Comment_793076

Michael summarizes my sentiments as well. Also, with the current restructuring happening in the Verbum division, I have become very concerned. Logos remains my first choice for electronic purchases, particularly around biblical-related commentaries and the like. However, I will consider simply buying a Kindle book when significantly less expensive.

I also feel that Faithlife is expanding into too many new product segments and not allocating proper resources to ongoing development of Logos/Verbum and Logos/Verbum resources. Just my impressions.

Doc B

When do you decide it is time to just hang it up? The extra features and indexes and what have you rarely get use. Do I keep investing in this program because that is where all of my money is tied up?

Doug, you aren't alone.

I strongly regret spending much of the money I've invested in Logos. If I could get it back and walk away, I would. But I can't (like the misled feeling you noted, no one told me the academic discount would prevent the re-sale of my resources). I foolishly bought large base packages early, before I knew how many of those resources would be useless to me. Now that I've 'outgrown' my academic discount, I have a bunch of stuff I can't use, bundled in various ways that I don't recall or understand so couldn't sell them even if I could get permission, attached to a package for which I no longer get academic discounts. That's not whining, it is reality as I perceive it.

Over time, I learned enough that I don't keep throwing money at Bellingham thinking that's the solution to my problems. I purchase one to three resources a year, carefully chosen, that I have already evaluated so I know I'll use. I avoid any upgrades at all, and only crossgrade when essential. (FL is careful to structure the software to become obsolete after just a few years, so hanging on to a particular version is really no longer feasable...so if you decline to crossgrade, stop buying resources altogether as you'll soon no longer be able to use the software).

Now for the good part: Logos is still a very good Bible software program, despite all the unnecessy bells and whistles that have been added. It will still do everything you wanted when you bought it (though some of it has become morbidly complex for the non-academic). If you have a use for those features, and a good basic set of resources, I would recommend you not 'hang it up' yet; rather, carefully invest in a few new resources and continue to use the package for the purposes you originally wanted it. Learn how to do the basic things you want to do and don't be frustrated by all the 'extra features' that one needs a PhD to know how to use. (Wait...I have a PhD, and I can't use many of them...ignore the analogy!)

One other bit of advice (and this one will ruffle some feathers): STAY AWAY FROM THESE FORUMS!

The forums are like going to the mall: you go there and suddenly need stuff you didn't even know existed. The one exception is when you have a specific question. Post a question and come back and read the replies. But **do not** browse all the threads about new packages, etc. There are some outstanding folks on the forums who add valuable and essential input to my use of the software, but there are also those who are apparently addicted to buying stuff (digital hoarders?) and buy anything that goes on sale. They'll do their best to convince you that you simply can't survive another day in the jungle without that latest tome on Sanskrit or Second Temple dental care, and those folks can be very convincing. Avoid them like you would a Second Temple dentist. You don't need that stuff.

In summary, my advice is *no*, don't keep "investing", but rather keep using the program in as responsible way (financially) as you can. As the company moves more and more to a cloud-based system, they may make your decision for you. Avoid jumping into a new paradigm if it costs anything (significant...which is your judgment) to do so. If they cut you out, be cut out. But don't give up what you have and can maintain at minimal cost for as long as you can keep it. Be selective. Pay $50 for a single commentary you will use, but don't pay $100 for the complete set when you only want one volume. Turn off the sales and marketing emails. You aren't missing anything (other than more opportunities to send money to Bellingham). And stay away from addictive personalities, especially if you are one of them.

I hope this all makes sense and you find it helpful.

(NB: This is a personal message for Doug (albeit in a public forum, only because I don't know how to send them privately) who asked essentially a personal question, and I won't be reading replies so don't expect me to follow up.)

Dan Francis

When do you decide it is time to just hang it up? The extra features and indexes and what have you rarely get use. Do I keep investing in this program because that is where all of my money is tied up?

Ugghhhh...

Thoughts?

I use 3 different programs.... Accordance, Olivetree Bible, Verbum (Logos).... I listed them in that order because that is how I came to them. I have been an Accordance user since it started, OT was my PalmOS Bible for years, and in 2005 I joined Logos when mac plans came up. Like stated above I too will sometimes go where it is the cheapest of the three. At other times I much prefer to have it in a certain one. All three programs have strong points the others can not match. All offer resources found no where else in Bible software. As a rule If i think I will want to quote something often i try for Accordance or Verbum because they have the greatest ease doing that. If dependability on mobile platform is of chief importance i go ACC or OT.... If cross referencing other works with ease is most important I go Verbum (NOTE tagging is not always perfect and I get very frustrated at times with the tagging. For example even though I own WBC in Logos I have been prevented from going to the source because I own second edition of the Psalms volume and it is first edition quoted. Getting the annoying you do not own this work. Which is true but still annoying.)

You have 3 choices in my mind... First, stay in Logos fully, this has it's advantages but it also leads to your frustration. Second, sell Logos and go elsewhere, this is not my advise because Logos is a good program and offers the broadest selection of resources. Third, keep Logos, but have a second Bible software. this is my choice and works best for me... It is no hardship on me to use multiple programs. It gives me the freedom to get resources that will be most useful to me in various ways.

-Dan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/793133#Comment_793133

When do you decide it is time to just hang it up? The extra features and indexes and what have you rarely get use. Do I keep investing in this program because that is where all of my money is tied up?

Doug, you aren't alone.

I strongly regret spending much of the money I've invested in Logos. If I could get it back and walk away, I would. But I can't (like the misled feeling you noted, no one told me the academic discount would prevent the re-sale of my resources). I foolishly bought large base packages early, before I knew how many of those resources would be useless to me. Now that I've 'outgrown' my academic discount, I have a bunch of stuff I can't use, bundled in various ways that I don't recall or understand so couldn't sell them even if I could get permission, attached to a package for which I no longer get academic discounts. That's not whining, it is reality as I perceive it.

Over time, I learned enough that I don't keep throwing money at Bellingham thinking that's the solution to my problems. I purchase one to three resources a year, carefully chosen, that I have already evaluated so I know I'll use. I avoid any upgrades at all, and only crossgrade when essential. (FL is careful to structure the software to become obsolete after just a few years, so hanging on to a particular version is really no longer feasable...so if you decline to crossgrade, stop buying resources altogether as you'll soon no longer be able to use the software).

Now for the good part: Logos is still a very good Bible software program, despite all the unnecessy bells and whistles that have been added. It will still do everything you wanted when you bought it (though some of it has become morbidly complex for the non-academic). If you have a use for those features, and a good basic set of resources, I would recommend you not 'hang it up' yet; rather, carefully invest in a few new resources and continue to use the package for the purposes you originally wanted it. Learn how to do the basic things you want to do and don't be frustrated by all the 'extra features' that one needs a PhD to know how to use. (Wait...I have a PhD, and I can't use many of them...ignore the analogy!)

One other bit of advice (and this one will ruffle some feathers): STAY AWAY FROM THESE FORUMS!

The forums are like going to the mall: you go there and suddenly need stuff you didn't even know existed. The one exception is when you have a specific question. Post a question and come back and read the replies. But **do not** browse all the threads about new packages, etc. There are some outstanding folks on the forums who add valuable and essential input to my use of the software, but there are also those who are apparently addicted to buying stuff (digital hoarders?) and buy anything that goes on sale. They'll do their best to convince you that you simply can't survive another day in the jungle without that latest tome on Sanskrit or Second Temple dental care, and those folks can be very convincing. Avoid them like you would a Second Temple dentist. You don't need that stuff.

In summary, my advice is *no*, don't keep "investing", but rather keep using the program in as responsible way (financially) as you can. As the company moves more and more to a cloud-based system, they may make your decision for you. Avoid jumping into a new paradigm if it costs anything (significant...which is your judgment) to do so. If they cut you out, be cut out. But don't give up what you have and can maintain at minimal cost for as long as you can keep it. Be selective. Pay $50 for a single commentary you will use, but don't pay $100 for the complete set when you only want one volume. Turn off the sales and marketing emails. You aren't missing anything (other than more opportunities to send money to Bellingham). And stay away from addictive personalities, especially if you are one of them.

I hope this all makes sense and you find it helpful.

(NB: This is a personal message for Doug (albeit in a public forum, only because I don't know how to send them privately) who asked essentially a personal question, and I won't be reading replies so don't expect me to follow up.)

Doc, thanks for sharing. Are you a pastor? Lay leader? Scholar? That info might be helpful to know.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/793133#Comment_793133

delete

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/793133#Comment_793133

One other bit of advice (and this one will ruffle some feathers): STAY AWAY FROM THESE FORUMS!

Yeah, you may run into a bunch of characters like Super.tramp and Doc B. [H]

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/793170#Comment_793170

One other bit of advice (and this one will ruffle some feathers): STAY AWAY FROM THESE FORUMS!

Yeah, you may run into a bunch of characters like Super.tramp and Doc B.

Or the one character they simply call DAL

LOL

PS. What can I say the forum is composed of human beings, that's all :P

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/793133#Comment_793133

One other bit of advice (and this one will ruffle some feathers): STAY AWAY FROM THESE FORUMS!

[^o)] Interesting piece of advice from one who is approaching 2100 posts on these forums [8-|] [:P]

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/793409#Comment_793409

One other bit of advice (and this one will ruffle some feathers): STAY AWAY FROM THESE FORUMS!

Interesting piece of advice from one who is approaching 2100 posts on these forums

Irony of ironies LOL 😇🤓🙂

Happy New Year!

DAL

Ted Harms

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/793201#Comment_793201

I think we all need to think about what Paul said in 1 Timothy 6:6-8 "6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it.8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that."

Stephen Terlizzi

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/793411#Comment_793411

I think we all need to think about what Paul said in 1 Timothy 6:6-8 "6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it.8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that."

.

But if we have food and clothing [and Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma back in Verbum], we will be content with that.

Agape,

Steve

Kevin Byford (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/793145#Comment_793145

If dependability on mobile platform is of chief importance i go ACC or OT....

Dan,

If there are any dependability issues you have experienced with the Faithlife Mobile apps, please post about these issues in the mobile forums.

Fasil

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/793446#Comment_793446

I think we all need to think about what Paul said in 1 Timothy 6:6-8 "6

But if we have food and clothing [and Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma back in Verbum], we will be content with that.

Agape,

Steve

i second it

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/793532#Comment_793532

I am a seminary student and pastor. My income after school can be measured by five digits and not six.

I have squirreled away nearly all of my discretionary spending money into Logos. I'm up to collectors edition, and have the top (or nearly so) base package in all of the other denominational packages. I'm not trying to brag here, I just want you to understand where I am at. 20,000$ invested into the ecosystem; with careful purchasing and good use of the CP program I've only paid about 1.19 usd per title. Roughly 6$ for every 5 titles.

I remember when I first returned to the ecosystem. I had some L2 software, and then L3 came out and I hated it. I finished bible school, and then started seminary. At that point I looked back at Logos once more - and with the help of some family and church family bought L4 Silver. The following week L5 came out, and I kind of freaked out a little bit. All these new base packages, all within my return window, shouldn't I have waited and bought in at 5 instead? I sent four or five frantic emails to my salesperson. Eventually he replied that from his perspective the L4 base packages were better than 5, and that while he could get me a L5 base package in exchange for my L4, that if I just waited a little bit I could be upgraded to 5 for free once the engine was released in a few weeks.

I made up my mind to download the new engine, and then later buy L5 gold (ended up going with platinum) when I could afford it, and the rest is history.

I like the mobile (ios in my case) app - has it reached desktop app parity? Nope. But its improving. My biggest gripe is that personal books don't sync to mobile yet.

The syncing of personal books being something a salesman promised me before I bought into L4.

As to your stipulation that the books are inappropriate, or unusable? There is some math worth doing whenever you consider a new base package. I start out by considering what titles I would get, then I evaluate what titles I would use. For instance, I was able to upgrade to Collectors, and gain AYB, ICC, and a few other commentary sets I was interested in, for less than the cost of AYB alone (thanks to dynamic pricing) AND I'd get a couple of thousand bonus titles besides. So for me the 1800$ upgrade that bought me 2200 books or so, was a great investment. Will I use 2000 of those? who knows. But part of the power of Logos is in having a large library. By having all these books I can click and see quotes in their context. Which is fantastic.

So yes some people are anti-base package. Sometimes some of their arguments have merit. But only when they weren't careful in selecting their base packages because there are some phenomenal deals out there to be had if you do your homework first. Having a salesman you can email at 3am with weird questions can help too - mine just took a job at the head of a big charity... But there are others, I've heard good things recently about Maggie Segar (maggie.segar at faithlife dot com). They can tell you what titles are new to you, they can tell you what some of the more important titles are and why, they can help guide your decision process, and they aren't afraid to say "honestly, that wouldn't benefit you". I've been told that a couple of times by sales people at Logos.

OR just stick with the free engines and keep up to date that way. The data sets are nice - but are not absolutely necessary for the study of scripture, or for a paper for a class.

Don't mind the sour grapes here on the forum. Some people grouse about the software and the people on the forums, and yet STILL return almost every day. I think that fact all by it self speaks volumes. If it were as bad as they say, why spend so much time here?

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/793547#Comment_793547

Of course we shouldn't express our unhappiness with an expense, overly complicated, public domain dominated library droid to others...[:S] Each of us decided to spend the amount of money that was dropped into our packages. I too started gathering resources in seminary at better discounts with few upgrades over the years. I too find that few of the resources are truly useful to my profession. I too feel trapped with the the small amount of of investment that has been made. However, the bible software market is very slim at this time with fewer options as time goes on. So I keep Logos on my computer drive with the Christian counseling resources I have while doing bible studies with another program. I am scared to sell the license or keep the software. It works and that is all I need at the moment.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/793531#Comment_793531

If dependability on mobile platform is of chief importance i go ACC or OT....

Dan,

If there are any dependability issues you have experienced with the Faithlife Mobile apps, please post about these issues in the mobile forums.

Kevin you are well aware that I and others have requested most robust offline usability. Faithlife Mobile Apps for usability beyond being a basic reader functionality requires an internet connection. Passage guide and use of greek hebrew look up requires connection to use logos servers. When I say dependability I did not mean there were great flaws in your programs (although 2 times I am aware of the programs did make erase all resources on devices, but you claim to have fixed these similar but different bugs). I have also found even with fast connections like full signal LTE or a very high speed WIFI connection my iOS devices (iPhone 6 and iPad 3) do not function as fast with FL mobile apps as the do with Accordance or Olivetree software. It is simply the design of your program, I am grateful for it, but get very frustrated, especially when I have a resource guide up and momentarily loose connection and find that it has not kept enough information on the device to open a resource listed.

-Dan

Kevin Byford (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/793608#Comment_793608

Kevin you are well aware that I and others have requested most robust offline usability. Faithlife Mobile Apps for usability beyond being a basic reader functionality requires an internet connection. Passage guide and use of greek hebrew look up requires connection to use logos servers. When I say dependability I did not mean there were great flaws in your programs (although 2 times I am aware of the programs did make erase all resources on devices, but you claim to have fixed these similar but different bugs).

Yes, I am aware that better offline support has been requested (along with many, many other features) but you didn't mention "offline" when referencing app "dependability." So yes, if offline guides or word lookup are what you need, those are currently not supported. One can't depend on features that don't yet exist in an app, but that is far different than being able to depend on features that do exist (and this is why I asked if you would please post about those in the mobile forums).

I have also found even with fast connections like full signal LTE or a very high speed WIFI connection my iOS devices (iPhone 6 and iPad 3) do not function as fast with FL mobile apps as the do with Accordance or Olivetree software. It is simply the design of your program, I am grateful for it, but get very frustrated, especially when I have a resource guide up and momentarily loose connection and find that it has not kept enough information on the device to open a resource listed.

Please create a new thread on the mobile forums for the speed issue, and another for the momentary connection loss one. If you are willing to help, I'd like to get some speed test numbers for both of your devices/connections and then also compare how many results you are getting from Faithlife vs. the other apps.

I've highjacked this thread and didn't intend to; sorry. Happy New Year!

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/793796#Comment_793796

Ok I have sent in a report from my iPad. Will start a new thread soon.. Like I said I do apologize for being inaccurate or giving an impression that FL mobile apps were not functioning properly, just not performing to what is acceptable to my usage standards, I have been spoiled by Accordance and Olivetree... Not to say FL are not advanced as ACC has no guide to compare your guides or OT resource guide.

-Dan

Kevin Byford (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/793803#Comment_793803

Ok I have sent in a report from my iPad. Will start a new thread soon.. Like I said I do apologize for being inaccurate or giving an impression that FL mobile apps were not functioning properly, just not performing to what is acceptable to my usage standards, I have been spoiled by Accordance and Olivetree... Not to say FL are not advanced as ACC has no guide to compare your guides or OT resource guide.

-Dan

Would it be a correct statement to say that your mobile app usage standards are largely relegated to being offline most if not all of the time?