Need help with quote from BDF

fgh

Can someone do me a favour and quote what BDF has to say about κεχαριτωμένη in Lk 1:28?

Mark Barnes

If you mean A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, then it doesn't say anything.

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/795443#Comment_795443

Odd. I have a quote I wanted to check and see in context: “It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitōmene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace”. Could be from an earlier edition, though.

Thanks anyway!  (And if someone has an earlier edition on a shelf somewhere...)

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/795443#Comment_795443

Mark Barnes said:

If you mean A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, then it doesn't say anything.

found a possible source of the quote in a google books snippet: BDF edition 1961, page 166

EDIT: and then realized that I do own BDF myself - and it's the 1961 edition [:$] - however, the authors there explain only the grammatical concept of Aktionsart (kinds of action) and that the perfect stem denotes 

a condition or state as the result of a past action

Friedrich Blass, Albert Debrunner, and Robert Walter Funk, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1961), 166.

without giving the example from Lk 1 or the paraphrase. I'm not sure whether Dwight intended to cite this as proof or further info rather than as a quotation, and others misstook it for such. Or there is a slightly different edition (without Funk named) from the same year? 

 

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/795450#Comment_795450

fgh said:

Odd. I have a quote I wanted to check and see in context: “It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitōmene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace”. Could be from an earlier edition, though.

Thanks anyway!  (And if someone has an earlier edition on a shelf somewhere...)

FWIW, the phrase "enduringly endowed with grace" doesn't appear anywhere in my library. Judging from a quick google search, it looks like someone has misquoted BDF, and then everyone else has jumped on the bandwagon. I can't find any alternative citation for that phrase, except this one: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=mbeQAQAAQBAJ&lpg=PA178&ots=ouV4TUkXSU&dq=%22Completely%2C%20perfectly%2C%20enduringly%20endowed%20with%20grace%22&pg=PA178#v=onepage&q=%22Completely,%20perfectly,%20enduringly%20endowed%20with%20grace%22&f=false 

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/795473#Comment_795473

Mark Barnes said:

FWIW, the phrase "enduringly endowed with grace" doesn't appear anywhere in my library. Judging from a quick google search, it looks like someone has misquoted BDF, and then everyone else has jumped on the bandwagon. I can't find any alternative citation for that phrase, except this one: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=mbeQAQAAQBAJ&lpg=PA178&ots=ouV4TUkXSU&dq=%22Completely%2C%20perfectly%2C%20enduringly%20endowed%20with%20grace%22&pg=PA

I dont think this is a misquotation of BDF, in the source you give it is not indicated as a quotation.

Here the footnote is imho clearly given as the proof of the author's own opinion.  

Whether the very general remarks of BDF (linked above) or the ones of Smyth really carry that much weight is not easy to see - at least they don't give κεχαριτωμένη as an example and don't paraphrase in that strong language.

Smyth says in sect 1852b, admittedly in an earlier edition:

Completed action with permanent result is denoted by the perfect stem

Herbert Weir Smyth, A Greek Grammar for Colleges (New York; Cincinnati; Chicago; Boston; Atlanta: American Book Company, 1920), 413.

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/795480#Comment_795480

Thanks för doing some work for me while I was busy reading a fascinating article on Χαῖρε (in French, with long quotes in Greek, Hebrew and Latin and the occasional word in Geez or something... — yes, I jumped over a lot of it, but it was fascinating anyway)! [:D]

Mark Barnes said:

I can't find any alternative citation for that phrase, except this one: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=mbeQAQAAQBAJ&lpg=PA178&ots=ouV4TUkXSU&dq=%22Completely%2C%20perfectly%2C%20enduringly%20endowed%20with%20grace%22&pg=PA178#v=onepage&q=%22Completely,%20perfectly,%20enduringly%20endowed%20with%20grace%22&f=false 

Interesting. I believe that's his first book, or at least older than all the ones I have in Logos, where the claim doesn't seem to be repeated. I suspect that solves where my quote comes from. The webpage I read had several non-working links to Armstrong's site.

NB.Mick said:

found a possible source of the quote in a google books snippet

Nice find. Ought to be in Logos. I wonder who's borrowing from whom. Both books seem to be from 2003.

NB.Mick said:

I'm not sure whether Dwight intended to cite this as proof or further info rather than as a quotation, and others misstook it for such.

Far too ambiguous!

To anyone reading this: take it as a lesson to always check your sources. Glad I did (with some help). Dave Armstrong doesn't exactly carry the same weight as BDF! [:)]

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/795499#Comment_795499

fgh said:

Dave Armstrong doesn't exactly carry the same weight as BDF!

That's for sure.

FWIW, in his books that are in Logos in my library, expecially in 'More biblical evidence for Catholicism' and 'The Catholic Mary' he uses kecharitomene only once each and does not elaborate on the grammatical function as in his older book.

fgh said:

NB.Mick said:

found a possible source of the quote in a google books snippet

Nice find. Ought to be in Logos. 

[Y] [Y]

fgh said:

I wonder who's borrowing from whom. Both books seem to be from 2003.

That would be nice to know.

fgh said:

To anyone reading this: take it as a lesson to always check your sources. 

 

Yep. While both books that use the reference and paraphrase are somewhat ambiguous, the Catholic apologist websites I've seen employ this as if it was clearly spelled out in BDF or even both BDF and Smyth.