Comment: lexicon and a Bible in the same linkset

"When a lexicon and a Bible are in the same linkset, and you have left clicked on a word in the surface text of the Bible, the lexicon will navigate to the definition for the associated lemma."

Not sure of the need for this:

it forces a new meaning to "linkset"
overuse of "left click" e.g. for Corresponding Words, Info
a one click solution

Why?

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Comments

Phil Gons (Logos)

Many people have Bibles and lexicons in their layouts. Currently, you have to take multiple steps to look up from your English Bible an underlying Greek or Hebrew word you're interested in (right click, select lemma, and choose your prioritized lexicon). I personally find this to be a bit tedious. Why not be intelligent about it and remove the extra steps?

In beta 3 we'll probably expand this to execute on an inline search as well. So if I run an inline search on a Greek or Hebrew word, my lexicon will follow along.

This was a quick experiment in expanding the linkset functionality beyond it's current scope. If it's well received, we have a few other ideas we'd like to explore.

If it's not of interest, you can simply ignore it. If, however, you'd like your lexicons to follow along more as you interact with your Bibles, then this might be a feature for you.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/802116#Comment_802116

Ok, so it wasn't due to a "significant user", just Phil Gons[:D]

I expect it will be well received, and I may actually use it as there are other uses of left click that can be ignored[:)]

thanks, Phil.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/802116#Comment_802116

I just tried it and find it a very convenient interface. Too bad I don't read either Greek or Hebrew. [:'(]

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/802116#Comment_802116

I think it's a great idea — although another option would have been the ability to determine which line a double-click operates on in an RI. If we could have set a double-click to operate on the lemma line rather than on surface, we wouldn't need this new functionality.

Fr Devin Roza

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/802116#Comment_802116

This was a quick experiment in expanding the linkset functionality beyond it's current scope. If it's well received, we have a few other ideas we'd like to explore.

Thanks. Very nice, especially integrating the Greek & Hebrew lookup with English Bibles.

Since you're thinking about expanding linkset functionality, please add it to Bible Word Study guides. I have long wanted that functionality, so they can refresh automatically along with a Greek or Hebrew Lexicon. This would be especially useful for linking custom BWS with only one or two sections (e.g. Root, Senses, etc.). It's the type of data I almost always find interesting, but there is no easy way currently to make it just come up automatically.

Lynden O. Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/802131#Comment_802131

Since you're thinking about expanding linkset functionality, please add it to Bible Word Study guides. I have long wanted that functionality, so they can refresh automatically along with a Greek or Hebrew Lexicon.

Like the idea. If I am reading you correctly, I select an English word, Logos looks up the equivalent Hebrew/Greek word and run the Bible Word Study Guide on it, which happens to be open. The same can be done with Greek and Hebrew. [:)]

For MJ and I, you will need an extra step to determine if we want the guide to look at the surface text or the Hebrew for me and G/H fro MJ.

Jack Caviness

At first examination, this looks useful, but will see how useful with extended use. Works very well with Show Multiple Resources.

Noticed that lexicons in floating windows located behind other windows do not pop to the front. For me, that is preferable—I think. For this layout, the Bibles and lexicons are on separate displays. If they were on the same one, having the lexicons pop into the front of the Bible would probably be quite annoying.

Fr Devin Roza

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/802134#Comment_802134

Since you're thinking about expanding linkset functionality, please add it to Bible Word Study guides. I have long wanted that functionality, so they can refresh automatically along with a Greek or Hebrew Lexicon.

Like the idea. If I am reading you correctly, I select an English word, Logos looks up the equivalent Hebrew/Greek word and run the Bible Word Study Guide on it, which happens to be open. The same can be done with Greek and Hebrew.

For MJ and I, you will need an extra step to determine if we want the guide to look at the surface text or the Hebrew for me and G/H fro MJ.

Yes, that's the idea!

And, I think that extra step you talk about would already be possible if the BWS could linkset - a double click on the English Bible already looks up the English word, while a single click now looks up the Greek/Hebrew lemma.

So, a single click would activate the OL Lexicon, which would then move the BWS through the linkset. But a double click would activate your English dictionary, which could then move the BWS to the English word BWS through a linkset with the English Dictionary.

To avoid having to have an English Dictionary open, maybe the "Send hyperlinks here" or similar could be added to BWS to allow lookups from a double-click (or single click when in a linkset with the Bible) to go straight to the BWS.

Phil Gons (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/802127#Comment_802127

I think it's a great idea — although another option would have been the ability to determine which line a double-click operates on in an RI. If we could have set a double-click to operate on the lemma line rather than on surface, we wouldn't need this new functionality.

Yes. That's another way to go about it. We have a separate issue in for that. However, as I mentioned, we're thinking about expanding it further. For example, if you perform an inline search on a Greek or Hebrew word, we're planning to have your lexicon look up that word for you without your having to perform a separate task. This should be in the next beta.

Phil Gons (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/802131#Comment_802131

Since you're thinking about expanding linkset functionality, please add it to Bible Word Study guides. I have long wanted that functionality, so they can refresh automatically along with a Greek or Hebrew Lexicon. This would be especially useful for linking custom BWS with only one or two sections (e.g. Root, Senses, etc.). It's the type of data I almost always find interesting, but there is no easy way currently to make it just come up automatically.

That's a great extension to this idea. Thanks for the suggestion. We'll look into it.

Erwin Stull, Sr.

I'll comment, as one from the non-stared community. [:D]

I like this feature. I also like the retention of the double-click function which will open a prioritized dictionary.

Thanks.

My vote is, continue working on this feature. [:)]

John Brumett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/802225#Comment_802225

What would really be nice is to take it not only to the head term but to the definition that the current verse is listed under in BDAG.

Erwin Stull, Sr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/802228#Comment_802228

What would really be nice is to take it not only to the head term but to the definition that the current verse is listed under in BDAG.

Hi John;

Can you elaborate a little? This is what I get for "love", using KJV and BDAG.

Romans 8:35

Romans 12:10

John Brumett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/802240#Comment_802240

In your Romans 8:35 example the passage Romans 8:35 is listed under Definition #1 sub point b of the love of God and Christ to humans I would have the Lexicon jump directly to sub point b

ⓑ of the love of God and Christ
α. to humans.
• Of God (cp. Wsd 3:9): 1J 4:10;
• ἐν ἡμῖν 1J 4:9, 16.
• εἰς ἡμᾶς Ro 5:8, cp. vs. 5.
• τετελείωται ἡ ἀ. μεθʼ ἡμῶν 1J 4:17 (s. HPreisker app. to HWindisch Comm. 167);
• ἀπὸ τῆς ἀ. τοῦ θεοῦ τῆς ἐν χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ Ro 8:39.
• ἀγάπην διδόναι bestow love 1J 3:1;
• ἐν ἀ. προορίσας ἡμᾶς εἰς υἱοθεσίαν Eph 1:4f: the rhythm of the passage suggests the believers as agents for ἀ. in vs. 4 (cp. vs. 15), but 2:4 favors God;
• s. the comm.
• —2 Cor 13:13; Jd 2 and 21.
• God is the source of love 1J 4:7, the θεὸς τῆς ἀ. 2 Cor 13:11, and therefore God is love 1J 4:8, 16.
• Christians, embraced by God’s love, are τέκνα ἀγάπης B 9:7; 21:9.
• —Of Jesus’ love J 15:9, 10a, 13 (s. MDibelius, Joh 15:13: Deissmann Festschr. 1927, 168–86); 1J 3:16.
• —Ro 8:35; 2 Cor 5:14; cp. Eph 3:19.

In your second example with the greek word for brotherly love I would have the lexicon jump to the definition right before Romans 12:10 in the transf. sense of affection for a fellow-Christian

Although in this second example this would be harder to program since there is no direct sub point but only further elaboration under the main definition.

My main application would be if there is a Greek work with 8 different meanings and the passage list this verse under meaning #6 then I would like to be able to jump directly to that meaning.

Erwin Stull, Sr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/802244#Comment_802244

Oh, Ok, I understand now.

Thanks for elaborating, John. That would be nice. [:)]

Fr Devin Roza

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/802244#Comment_802244

In your Romans 8:35 example the passage Romans 8:35 is listed under Definition #1 sub point b of the love of God and Christ to humans I would have the Lexicon jump directly to sub point b

ⓑ of the love of God and Christ
α. to humans.

I can see how some would like that. Nevertheless, personally I tend to think I would prefer it as is, just taking you to the lemma. I find that with "emphasize active references" it is easy to find the correct reference in those cases in which it is present.

Another thing to consider would be that the actual definition of subpoint b is definition #1, with subpoint b delimiting who does the action expressed in definition 1, but not changing the definition as such. So being taken to subpoint b could be rather confusing.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/802244#Comment_802244

My main application would be if there is a Greek work with 8 different meanings and the passage list this verse under meaning #6 then I would like to be able to jump directly to that meaning.

I suspect that you represent the majority view but I get concerned when the tools start doing the thinking rather than making me choose the correct sense myself. But I suppose in a number of areas that ship has already sailed.

John Brumett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/802267#Comment_802267

I suspect that you represent the majority view but I get concerned when the tools start doing the thinking rather than making me choose the correct sense myself.

This does not necessary do my own thinking by making the tool a little more efficient. Like going to a commentary makes up my mind for me. I can easily compare and see what fits in context.

There is more than one way to accomplish this and maybe click one time should go to the head term so that is why I suggested in another forum a couple of other options for comparing lexicons in context.

John Brumett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/802256#Comment_802256

I can see how some would like that. Nevertheless, personally I tend to think I would prefer it as is, just taking you to the lemma. I find that with "emphasize active references" it is easy to find the correct reference in those cases in which it is present.

That is OK if you prefer this but in some cases especially the theological dictionaries I have to scroll a long way to find the active bible reference. Maybe we can get what I want by other means. This is why I suggested a couple of other options in another forum such as compare lexicons in context and direct links in the exegetical guide.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/802267#Comment_802267

I get concerned when the tools start doing the thinking rather than making me choose the correct sense myself. But I suppose in a number of areas that ship has already sailed.

Sadly true, but then a great number of preachers have allowed the commentary writers to do their thinking for decades already.

Phil Gons (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/802256#Comment_802256

Another thing to consider would be that the actual definition of subpoint b is definition #1, with subpoint b delimiting who does the action expressed in definition 1, but not changing the definition as such. So being taken to subpoint b could be rather confusing.

Another problem is that occasionally a reference will occur under multiple senses, because the author was unsure of the right contextual meaning. If we take you to the first one, you might be less inclined to browse the broader entry.

John Brumett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/802304#Comment_802304

Another problem is that occasionally a reference will occur under multiple senses, because the author was unsure of the right contextual meaning. If we take you to the first one, you might be less inclined to browse the broader entry.

I can see your point with what you are trying to do here click on a word once to take you to a lexical entry. So maybe this can be accomplished by having a tool that compare lexicons in context and have both entries listed if a passage is found under multiple definitions. The whole point of computer technology is having easier access to the information. I decide what I want to do with that information. We already jump to Greek Grammars that have a verse listed in the Exegetical Guide without reading all the Grammatical options so why not do the same with lexicons? We also have a Sense Lexicon that lists only one interpretation for the Passage in Context. Sometimes the longer lexical entries are easier to weed through if we can do directly to that definition and for the lay person this will help them to get closer to the original meaning rather than further away.

John Brumett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/802315#Comment_802315

Clicking on one work with Louw-Nida linked takes me to the index instead of the head term whereas in the Bible Word Study Guide I go directly to the lexical entry.

Jeremiah

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/802244#Comment_802244

Hey as I navigate some of the larger lexicons LSJ and DCH even to get to the highlighted active references I find it would be a nice time-saver option to be able to jump directly to the highlighted option (especially for DCH since it is context-driven rather than cognate driven).

Is there any movement on this as an option or perhaps a wanted feature we can vote on somewhere?

I'd cast some votes for this, assuming it's an option setting so we can turn it off when we don't want it to function this way.

Thanks