Dear Faithlife, I am not stupid

From my email:

Since 2008, you’ve helped us ship thousands of products through our Pre-Pub program. We’ve just canceled production of a number of Pre-Pubs that weren’t gaining enough momentum, enabling other products to be delivered faster.

You’ll find a list of your canceled pre-pub orders at the bottom of this email.

As a result, $nnnnnn you had committed to Pre-Pubs has been freed up. So, treat yourself today.

If you would like to speak with a Logos product specialist about resources you can add to your library, call our friendly staff at 888‑875‑9491.

Base packages are the best way to get the books you want at below Pre-Pub pricing. Show me.

We have hundreds of books that will help with your Bible study on sale every day. Browse what’s on sale.

If you want to reinvest your money in Pre-Pubs that are shipping soon, browse our list of Pre-Pubs.

I have already begun treating myself. The books you cancelled were nearly all in areas that you have very limited resources available - things of interest to adult religious education/faith formation volunteers, for liturgists, or in some cases things I supported not because I wanted them but because I believed they should be in your catalogue if you were to successfully broaden your base market.

So how have I treated myself?

Jesus Wars: How Four Patriarchs, Threee Queens, and Two Emperors Decided What Christians Would Believe for the Next 1,500 Years by Philip Jenkins
Epistemic Logic: A Survey of the Logic of Knowledge by Nicholas Rescher
The Logic of Religion by Joseph M. Bochenski, O.P.
Buddhist-Christian Dialogue as Theological Exchange: An Orthodox Contribution to Comparative Theology by Ernest M Valea

What is my next step? The obvious next move is to pick up any volumes in the cancelled pre-pubs that I don't already own in dead tree form. I am missing:

one volume of Interfaces
a couple of Aidan Nichols volumes
several Neusner volumes which I will purchase in a more selective manner than the Logos bundles
a handful of liturgical, narrative theology and storytelling resources

More base packages? Do you realize that much of what I don't have is because I have no use for it and no interest in it? It should be obvious from my purchases that my interests are (in loosely descending order):

Catholic/Orthodox resources with a minimal interest in pastoral or church history resources
High Anglican/Lutheran resources with a primary interest in liturgics, faith formation and Bible study
worship - hymns, prayer books, lectionaries, liturgical calendars ...
bible study - methodology, narrative studies, socio-rhetoical studies, structural studies, linguistics, Jewish methods ...
theology - narrowly oriented to liturgical theology and epistemological concerns
inter-faith studies - especially where there is historical interaction with Christianity e.g. Sufism, Buddhism

You should get the picture ... there is very little chance that the money reflected in the cancelled prepubs will be reinvested in other Logos resources. A simple comparison of my wish list to my prepub list should have made that obvious.

I don't attempt to run your business - if you found it advantageous to cancel the pre-pubs so be it. Just don't insult me by trying to turn it into an opportunity for me to spend my money on resources I had obviously given lower priority.

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Comments

Dan Francis

there is very little chance that the money reflected in the cancelled prepubs will be reinvested in other Logos resources. A simple comparison of my wish list to my prepub list should have made that obvious.

I don't attempt to run your business - if you found it advantageous to cancel the pre-pubs so be it. Just don't insult me by trying to turn it into an opportunity for me to spend my money on resources I had obviously given lower priority.

[Y] [8-|] [Y]

Mark

there is very little chance that the money reflected in the cancelled prepubs will be reinvested in other Logos resources.

Well I was not going to say it, but yes, this is true. And while I did not write it, I did think it. I have enjoyed MJ's logic over the years...

William Gabriel

Preach it

Ted Harms

I also very disappointed that they turned the cancelling of Pre-pubs into an opportunity to sell us additional items. Come on guys we are not all like Donald trump. We work very hard for everything we have. Please do not turn everything into another opportunity to increase sales!

DAL

there is very little chance that the money reflected in the cancelled prepubs will be reinvested in other Logos resources.

Well I was not going to say it, but yes, this is true. And while I did not write it, I did think it. I have enjoyed MJ's logic over the years...

Yes, That's what it's all about! Just Say It! You go MJ! I know I'd say something similar if my prepubs had been canceled 👍👌🤘I'm sorry but Faithlife's marketing techniques are upsetting quite a few people. The sad thing is that not long ago a Faithlife employee (Phil Gons) was trying to honor the "value" of the prepub program by purposely leaving out a nice commentary that was supposed to be on sale. Wow, some value it must have now!!! The good thing about it is that I choose to laugh at these claims they make LOL 😜😁😂 no use of getting upset, they have a cow to milk and they're just finding new ways to do it, even if it upsets long time customers

DAL

MJ. Smith

Please note that I worded my complaint very carefully and meant exactly what I said. Logos has the right to cancel prepubs and that does not upset me. However I am insulted that they expect me to use faulty logic to transfer the "freed" funds to other purchases from them. For all they know, the next item in my spending priorities might be buying a heifer. I always detest errors of logic and probabilistic logic tells me that it is more likely that I will want to obtain the cancelled resources in different formats or transfer the funds to non-book purposes. Their logic would hold if the realm of discourse was limited to users constrained to electronic versions in Logos format with a dedicated book-fund that must be spent in a short time frame.

Jan Krohn

Simple calculation:

Deadish PP items block an amount of x Dollars across the customer base, which FL will not see a Penny of in 100 years.

Cancelling these PPs releases amount x. Even if FL only sees 5% or 10% of that money invested back in other products, it's still better for them than the previous scenario. I can fully understand the business decision behind it, and do support it as it's good not only for FL, but also for boosting the remaining PPs and CPs.

How to communicate it in a meaningful and sensible way is an entirely different question...

Robert M. Warren

So there.

MJ. Smith

Deadish PP items block an amount of x Dollars across the customer base, which FL will not see a Penny of in 100 years.

Unfortunately for your argument, I do not grant this presupposition. I would be willing to grant it for a small subset of the user base. But many of us do not have a "book budget" but rather budget Logos resources along with our other discretionary purchases. And, as an optimist, I have seen "deadish" items come to life when enough related materials/functions have become available to build the market. I would like to see a more deliberate ordering of offerings to build specific sub-markets.

George Somsel

I don't attempt to run your business - if you found it advantageous to cancel the pre-pubs so be it. Just don't insult me by trying to turn it into an opportunity for me to spend my money on resources I had obviously given lower priority.

Precisely, had I wanted them, I would have ordered them although I do have a small number in my wishlist, but I will only order them when my budget is freed up, not when a POTENTIAL budget is freed up. My interests are different from yours as I suspect each person has his own interests differing from others. My interests lie in ancient languages and ANE history. I have other interests as well, but that is the major area of interest. Most of those cancelled are in those areas (except for Calvin's sermons which will interest any TULIP lover).

Glenn Crouch

You should get the picture ... there is very little chance that the money reflected in the cancelled prepubs will be reinvested in other Logos resources. A simple comparison of my wish list to my prepub list should have made that obvious.

I don't attempt to run your business - if you found it advantageous to cancel the pre-pubs so be it. Just don't insult me by trying to turn it into an opportunity for me to spend my money on resources I had obviously given lower priority.

Well said - I felt a bit "insulted" by the wording of the letter - bad enough to be disappointed by losing something I never had [;)] - I think more wisdom could have been used in the formation of the letter.

Bob Pritchett

I'm sorry -- we didn't mean offense to anyone!

It's a sad day when we cancel any Pre-Pub -- we want to see them all make it! But we're going through a phase of dealing with things as they are, not as we wish them to be, and as they are, these books weren't going to get enough interest to move forward. And worse, books that do 'just barely make it' in Pre-Pub are essentially profit-less. So while we might sell a thousand dollars worth of Title X, we end up with $0 to run the business after the cost of the book's production.

That's fine for a title here or there, but doesn't scale well!

While I know that you, M.J., are not one to consider books interchangeable, I also know that you are not in any way a typical customer. <smile> (On the contrary, you are a uniquely exceptional and particularly valued customer! No one else uses the product, or challenges us to make it better, in quite the same way...)

It does appear to be true that many of our users do exercise some 'potential spending reservation.' Some people have a long wish list of titles they'd like to buy in Logos format, and sometimes they do appear to make trade-offs. While we can't tell exactly how much long-deferred pre-pubs 'lock-up' potential spend, we can tell that 'low-margin titles' DO take user investment that might otherwise go to 'survivable-margin titles.' :-)

While every user is unique, with tens of thousands of customers we're able to tease out some stats and general models, and it appears that in general users have spent close to the same dollars-per-year on add-on books per user. And while each year's larger catalog DOES increase that number (reflecting that Title Y is now available, and so now can be purchased from Logos instead of Amazon), it turns out that the growth rates are different. Based on analysis and user comments, it appears that many people already have a wish-list much bigger than their book budget, so if we don't deliver Title Y this year, some of them will buy Title X that's already available, since it was on the wishlist too.

(And of course some will go buy Title Y from Amazon, or a used bookseller, or hunt down the last remaining copy in the back of a time-forgotten Romanian bookstore...)

In very simplistic terms, it appears that ten years ago we could double the number of titles available and double the purchases, but that now (with 80,000+ titles available), doubling the number of books available (at great cost of production) only increases sales by 10%.

These aren't the real numbers, just explanatory examples. And we're actually working on some 'hacks' to make even more books available (Vyrso-style).

Again, we didn't mean any offense... but simply sent the same email to everyone affected. For you it was clearly the wrong message, but for some it probably made a bit more sense.

MJ. Smith

If I were in your business, what would keep me up at night would be denominations deciding to follow the pattern being blazed by the 84000 project - where something like Migne could easily replace the corpus. Depth and price are both right; tagging is a bit deficient. [;)]

But I agree that some significant slice of your current user base is probably strongly influenced by a book budget form of compensation but that is not necessary the most available growth group.

Mark Barnes

It does appear to be true that many of our users do exercise some 'potential spending reservation.' Some people have a long wish list of titles they'd like to buy in Logos format, and sometimes they do appear to make trade-offs. While we can't tell exactly how much long-deferred pre-pubs 'lock-up' potential spend, we can tell that 'low-margin titles' DO take user investment that might otherwise go to 'survivable-margin titles.' :-)

I'm in this category.

In my case, receiving the email wouldn't have encouraged me to buy more books, but it would have encouraged me not to cancel pre-pubs I couldn't afford.

Personally, I don't have a problem with the email. Whilst it would have been nice if it had included an expression of regret, you can hardly blame Logos for wanting to put a positive spin on something that's users will find a bit disappointing.

MJ. Smith

but it would have encouraged me not to cancel pre-pubs I couldn't afford.

This is something where we have seen a real division of forum users - those who consider a prepub purchase/bid as a provisional purchase to be decided upon when the resource is close to release and those who consider it a contract to purchase to be broken only under exceptional circumstances.

One thing I hope the "clearing of deadwood" action will do is decrease the percentage of cancellations that Faithlife must plan for giving us a low cost point to be met to get something into production.

delete12066188

I'm one of these with few Money and find out that I total misunderstood the Prepubs.

It say "showing Intressed" and yes I have Intress in what I prepub, and I say Yes even if I know it will take a while Hope that I will have the Money if it comes. Sometimes I don't so I have to cancel.

Maybe it should be two different things

1. Interessed (How in the World is that spell) maybe with a Hint how much it will cost

2. Prepub with a Yes I will buy it if it comes

Mark Barnes

This is something where we have seen a real division of forum users - those who consider a prepub purchase/bid as a provisional purchase to be decided upon when the resource is close to release and those who consider it a contract to purchase to be broken only under exceptional circumstances.

I only order a pre-pub if I'm intending to buy it — but a lot can change in the months/years before it finally arrives. Faithlife make it clear that you can change your mind about a PrePub at any time, and cancel without penalty.

There are many reasons why people might reasonably change their minds, the three most common (for me) being:

Too many expensive pre-pubs are released at the same time, so I can't afford all of them in one go.
Earlier pre-pubs which take so long to produce, and have have been surpassed by more attractive later pre-pubs.
My financial circumstances have worsened since ordering (or the exchange rate is significantly less favourable).

John Kaess

Please note that I worded my complaint very carefully and meant exactly what I said. Logos has the right to cancel prepubs and that does not upset me. However I am insulted that they expect me to use faulty logic to transfer the "freed" funds to other purchases from them. For all they know, the next item in my spending priorities might be buying a heifer. I always detest errors of logic and probabilistic logic tells me that it is more likely that I will want to obtain the cancelled resources in different formats or transfer the funds to non-book purposes. Their logic would hold if the realm of discourse was limited to users constrained to electronic versions in Logos format with a dedicated book-fund that must be spent in a short time frame.

[Y]

Friedrich

Personally, I don't have a problem with the email. Whilst it would have been nice if it had included an expression of regret, you can hardly blame Logos for wanting to put a positive spin on something that's users will find a bit disappointing.

It is my considerable experience that people prefer a little honesty and humility and compassion rather than simplistik (sic) marketing spin That can be seen straight through. Love you Logos, and I know you need to do what you do, and I know I have to pass on som pre-pubs because if monetary limitations, but I grieve some of those lost titles and possibilities. It is real loss...grief...not in overdramatic fashion, but real nonetheless. I don't need Logos to tell me I can spend money elsewhere. I'm smart enough to do that. but when someone skips over my (in context) grief, it in fact feels like they are out of touch with me or dismissive of my hopes and desires--after all, these resources often are, but not always, books that speak to a longing in my own growth or spirituality, and to lose them is sad/disappointing (again folks, in context, this is a loss but not egregious loss, but loss nonetheless). Getting an email like that is merely annoying and does nothing to build relationship. it merely maintains or creates distance. A simple acknowledgement of loss would have implicitly communicated that you "get it". Peace out.

Brother Mark

My interests lie in ancient languages and ANE history.

ANE	Anarchy 'n' Explosives

from http://www.acronymfinder.com/ANE.html

George Somsel

My interests lie in ancient languages and ANE history.

ANE Anarchy 'n' Explosives
from http://www.acronymfinder.com/ANE.html

Yes, I'm sure Logos carries many resources on Anarchy 'n' Explosives. A really vital source on this subject. [;)]

BillS

I have enjoyed MJ's logic over the years...

[Y][Y][Y]

Doc B

there is very little chance that the money reflected in the cancelled prepubs will be reinvested in other Logos resources

I still haven't received the email. But then, I'm probably PNG over there. When you get blasted by an employee, I think you get put on a list. It's not a good list. [;)]

It is good to see a lot of folks saying what I have been saying for a while. (And some of those folks pooh-poohed me when I first said them.) Sort of a 'sub-vindication.'

Ronald Quick

Check your spam box. Even though I frequently get Logos emails, this one did not go into my inbox.

JAL

it appears that in general users have spent close to the same dollars-per-year on add-on books per user.

This reflects my history. I am now more circumspect. I am finding that features and enhancements most important to me languish or are unlikely ever to be included in any Faithlife application. I now increasingly also buy books for other platforms that provide the desired functionality or for which the resource pricing is lower.

And we're actually working on some 'hacks' to make even more books available (Vyrso-style).

That seems appropriate. I commend Faithlife for routinely improving existing resources, yet I find many Logos Editions just don't warrant the price premium and likely never will.

Don Awalt

It's interesting, for years now Bob has commented that in addition to the (most important) mission to take the Bible to as many people as possible in as many ways as possible, there was an underlying reality that the existing customer base would not spend like they have in the past - the the majority of current users purchase the most at the beginning of their Logos relationship, and little if anything after. I can't help but think at times that some of the policies are effecting a self-fulfilling prophecy with regard to making it easy for long time customers to stay as engaged as in the past.

Hopefully this is just a bump in the road and we see renewed interest in the existing customer base. Things are often not as bad as they seem when bad, nor as good as they seem when good.

Bruce Dunning

I don't attempt to run your business - if you found it advantageous to cancel the pre-pubs so be it. Just don't insult me by trying to turn it into an opportunity for me to spend my money on resources I had obviously given lower priority.

I feel your pain.

James Hudson

Unfortunately, Logos have just lost over $13500 (wow!) from prepubs! they cancelled from me!

Well, if they don't want my money...!!!

Dan Francis

It's interesting, for years now Bob has commented that in addition to the (most important) mission to take the Bible to as many people as possible in as many ways as possible, there was an underlying reality that the existing customer base would not spend like they have in the past - the the majority of current users purchase the most at the beginning of their Logos relationship, and little if anything after. I can't help but think at times that some of the policies are effecting a self-fulfilling prophecy with regard to making it easy for long time customers to stay as engaged as in the past.

Hopefully this is just a bump in the road and we see renewed interest in the existing customer base. Things are often not as bad as they seem when bad, nor as good as they seem when good.

The issue for me for the most part everything I really want to buy is gathering interest. And a few high priority items were just canceled... I cannot buy what FL will not produce...

-Dan

Travis Walter

For whatever reason I get emails from sales purchases but nothing for a list service type. So I have never gotten the canceled email either and I doubt I will.. But seeing this list is shocking that over 300-400 prepubs were canceled.

Michael March

Glad you put that offhand comment in about the Grail Psalms MJ. I love them and just added my order. Looks close from the green bar.

RRD

Thanks! I just pre-ordered Grail Psalms, also.

Mike Childs

There is no question that all MJ said is true. It is, indeed, unlikely that the money we intended to spend for canceled prepubs will be spent for other Logos books. We are more likely to buy those books elsewhere.

I suppose that Faithlife must aim for the broadest market. Unfortunately, the deeper we go in our study, the more narrow is the market for the resources that we need.

I have found personal books to be a partial solution at times. If Logos does not carry something that I really want, and it is available in another ebook format, I have sometimes bought the ebook from another source and converted it to a Logos personal book. For years I wanted George Ladd’s commentary on Revelation, and it went into my library as a personal book. A few years later it became available in Logos, and I bought the resource from Logos and deleted my personal book.

That has been one partial solution for me. It would not be for many, I am sure. Some may feel that I violated copyright. However, I legally purchased the book. Just as I would convert a music cd that I purchased to an mp3 to play on my iPod, I felt no ethical problem with converting a purchased book into Logos personal book. I certainly did not share any copyrighted material, but used the ebook I purchased personally in the best way for me.

Lew Worthington

And we're actually working on some 'hacks' to make even more books available (Vyrso-style).

That seems appropriate. I commend Faithlife for routinely improving existing resources, yet I find many Logos Editions just don't warrant the price premium and likely never will.

This would be a huge bonus for me. Many -- perhaps most -- of the Logos resources that I spend the most continuous time in are those that I just read. I don't need them to be tagged or enhanced with anything sophisticated. I just want to read them. For me, the reference works (dictionaries, commentaries, etc.) and language tools are the most critical to have the value-added effort required to make them full-blown Logos resources. The rest can exist peacefully and less expensively as Vyrso-style books.

And in that case, they're better off in my Logos collection than on my physical bookshelf or in Kindle or anything else.