David Crowder in Praise Habit
Richard Foster (numerous places)
John Michael Talbot in The Universal Monk
Dan Kimball in The Emerging Church
Tony Jones in Divine Intervention
David Benner in Opening to God: Lectio Divina and Life as Prayer
Eugene Peterson in Eat This Book
Ken Boa in Healthy Spirituality and Conformed to His Image
Eugene Peterson in Message Bible for Kids
Keri Wyatt Kent in Listen
Multnomah University (OR)
Mike Bickle in IHOP
Cornerstone U. (MI)
Biblegateway.com
Marjorie Thompson in Soul Feast
John Ortberg in An Ordinary Day with Jesus
Adele Ahlberg Calhoun in Spiritual Disciplines Handbook
Christian Camp & Conference Association (CCCA)
Biola University (CA)
Larry Crabb in Real Church
Michael Casey in Sacred Reading
Saddleback Church
Willow Creek
Ruth Haley Barton (various)
Jan Johnson in When the Soul Listens
Leighton Ford in The Attentive Life
Lynne Babb in Joy Together
Richard Peace in Conversations in the New Testament
Mark Yaconelli in Downtime: Helping Teenagers Pray
Dallas Willard in Hearing God
Robert Webber in Ancient Future Faith
J.I. Packer in Praying
Mike King in Presence Centered Youth Ministry
Ivy Beckwith in Formational Children’s Ministry
Brian McLaren in Finding Our Way Again
Tony Campolo in The God of Intimacy
Timothy Keller at Redeemer Presbyterian
Lectio Divina & the Gospel of John
Milkman
Member Posts: 4,880 ✭✭✭
Are there any books that guide a reader through John's Gospel using a lectio divina approach? Or am I thinking too much as a modern postmodern North American reformed person?
It's difficult to transition from three points and poem - setting scripture reading goals and rushing off to work or paperwork to the ancient practice of contemplative praying of Scriptures as a means of union with God.
If there are any resources or ideas floating out there to help integrate both centering prayer and the reading of Scripture in spiritual formation whether in FL, personal thoughts or websites I'm all ears.
mm.
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Comments
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A good starting point is praying with scripture which is in one of the reading lists. Or if you prefer a Protestant orientation Spiritual Reading of Scripture Lectio Divina is worth a read. As Pennington is associated with Centering Prayer his Lectio Divina: Renewing the Ancient Practice of Praying the Scriptures is likely your best choice.
I could recommend 6 or 8 more that are very good but these match your request most closely.
As for your being Reformed - I find these through Google:
LIFEWAY ENCOURAGING SOUTHERN BAPTISTS TO PRACTICE LECTIO DIVINA
Protestant Barriers to Contemplative Prayer
do a google search on Protestant Lectio Divina and puruse the results.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Milkman said:
If there are any resources or ideas floating out there to help integrate both centering prayer and the reading of Scripture in spiritual formation whether in FL, personal thoughts or websites I'm all ears.
I deliberately skipped this in my first answer. For some Catholics this is like asking fish about water. The problem on how to answer is that I can't imagine spiritual formation without a balance of the liturgical prayers of the hours, the contemplative centering prayer & lectio divine, and the active social service element. I'll suggest an odd starting point. Have you read Richard Foster's Prayer: Finding the Heart's True Home and his Celebration of Discipline: The Path of Spiritual Growth? He is a Quaker who, in my opinion, is the best contemporary writer on a balanced faith life.
After you have read Foster consider using A Practical Guide to Spiritual Reading by Susan A. Muto and Adrian Van Kaam or something similar as this is now rather old and hard to find to find suitable spiritual formation literature to read along side the Bible.
If none of these seem a good fit, ask again.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Milkman said:
Are there any books that guide a reader through John's Gospel using a lectio divina approach?
Lectio is about the living and abiding Word of God (1 Pt 1:23) ... "living and abiding". It's not a "commentary". In other words, there is no specific "program" of thoughts. "Program" meaning prescribed.
I would suggest consulting Fr. Thomas Keatings' resource, Finding Grace at the Center.
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for those who misunderstand the topic of lectio divina and think it's some new fad appropriated from the East ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Here is information about Catholic approach to lectio divina:
"One traditional way of bringing together all these different methods in a simple and coherent framework is through the traditional Catholic approach developed in monastic circles and known as lectio divina (divine or spiritual reading). There are four steps. The first step is lectio (reading); that is, a careful reading of the text from various critical perspectives (literary, historical, and theological) and the assimilation or appropriation of the text on both intellectual and emotional levels. The second step is meditatio, which explores what this text may be saying to me (or us) now. One can open up the text by focusing on a theme or a few phrases, by applying the senses (sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch) to the biblical scene, and by trying to make connections between the text and one’s present situation. The third step is oratio (prayer) in which on the basis of reading and meditating one may speak words of praise, petition, adoration, and/or thanksgiving to God. The fourth step may take the form of contemplatio (relishing the religious experience generated by the encounter with the text and resting in the mystery of God) and/or actio (coming to a decision about one’s life, or finding new ways to express what one has learned—through dance, drama, artwork, group sharing, homily, etc.)."
Harrington, D. J. (2011). The Bible in Catholic Life. In D. Senior, J. J. Collins, & M. A. Getty (Eds.), The Catholic Study Bible, 2nd ed.: Notes (2nd ed., Vol. 1, p. 22). New York: Oxford University Press.
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As for the Gospel of John, unfortunately I do not know of a Lectio Divina approach to John within Catholic resources. Since the Catholic Lectionary rotates through Mark, Matthew, and Luke with selected days with John, most of my lectio divina resources follow Year A, B, and C format.
If you are interested in that approach, then I can recommend the Advent/Lenten/Ordinary Grace books of Daily Gospel Reflections by the Daughters of St. Paul (in Verbum) and the books Lectio Divina for the Sunday Gospels by Fr. Michel De Verteuil.
Agape,
Steve
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It occurs to me that for John you could use the resource The Catholic Prayer Bible: Lectio Divina Edition (NRSV) if it appeals to you ... I'm not super fond of it but do see how it could be useful.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Milkman said:
Are there any books that guide a reader through John's Gospel using a lectio divina approach? Or am I thinking too much as a modern postmodern North American reformed person
http://www.amazon.com/Listening-through-John-Lectio-Divina/dp/0898273005/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1464322246&sr=1-1&keywords=lectio+divina+wesleyan
You can find more in the series here:
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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James Hiddle said:
Unfortunately this article has a very false statement:
[quote]It has the potential to become a pursuit of mystical experience where the goal is to free the mind and empower oneself.
As I have never seen this particular misrepresentation of mysticism before - Christian or generic - I cannot guess where this misunderstanding comes from. The problem is that mysticism in some sense always erases the "self" rather than empowering it.
But this is not the place for theological discussions - it is the place where, if someone asks for a recommendation, one offers recommendations that meet the criteria they set.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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In updating another reading list I discovered this reference that may be of interest - Jewish perspective Mishna 6: Way 1: Studying to Transcend, Way 2: Listening to Change | Rabbi David Rosenfeld
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Warning - Catholics may think that Centering Prayer is only of one form or type, and is always acceptable and keeping with the Catholic (or even Christian) faith. Just to be clear, both statements are false.
During the 70s and 80s there were a growing number of well-intentioned Catholics who began to explore the integration of non-Christian Eastern prayer practices and traditional forms of Catholic prayer. There were sufficient concerns about the outcomes of this effort to prompt a response by the Vatican through then Cardinal Ratzinger, who issued the letter I link to below as head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to all of the Bishops of the Catholic Church warning of the potential errors in this area.
One only needs a cursory understanding of the history and teachings of Centering Prayer to understand that it is clearly dealt with in this document. As well it is important to note that the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has not condemned or suppressed the Centering Prayer movement here or elsewhere. It simply proposes corrections, reforms, and redirection to ensure that those inspired to seek Christ through prayer do so in keeping with the time tested and faithful traditions and inspirations of Christ and his Church.
That said - if what the Church has taught in this area is of interest, this document may prove useful in ensuring that your techniques of Centering prayer don't drift away from Christ and in fact aid you in seeking an authentic and profound relationship with Christ in prayer. It's linked to the Vatican website:
LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON SOME ASPECTS OF CHRISTIAN MEDITATION
(Note - I have had personal experience in seeing someone experience serious Christian spiritual damage who took the transcendental emptying techniques centering prayer can suggest too literally. Be careful!)
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Don Awalt said:
One only needs a cursory understanding of the history and teachings of Centering Prayer to understand that it is clearly dealt with in this document.
No, this document deals with, as you say, non-Christian Eastern prayer and while Centering Prayer reached popularity as a Christian response to such practices, it has very deep historical roots in the Judeo-Christian tradition. And yes, I have attended a retreat taught by Keating himself.
Difficult as I find it to not rebut you, this is not the place for theological debate or spiritual direction and, having spent 48 years in circles where various versions of "centering prayer" and the Jesus prayer were commonplace ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ I know you like to argue but I am not sure what your issue is.
I said there is more than one type of Centering Prayer - you agree (2nd paragraph - "various version of 'centering prayer").
I said some are keeping with Christian faith, some are not - you didn't directly comment on this but I can't believe you have an issue with it, as 5 minutes of Googling would uncover some bizarre nuances of prayer called Centering.
I never said there was anything wrong with a particular technique of prayer, or Centering Prayer, nor does the document if you bothered to read it. The Vatican document is commenting on particular methods of prayer associated with some eastern religions (paragraph 1). Keating wrote in his book "Could we put the Christian tradition into a form that would be accessible to people ... who have been instructed in an Eastern technique and might be inspired to return to their Christian roots if they knew there was something similar in the Christian tradition?"' (Intimacy with God, 15). So it seemed this would be a relevant and helpful aid.
So what's your issue? Why the "Difficult as I find it not to rebut you" confrontational post? Why is everything an argument with you?
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Don Awalt said:
but I am not sure what your issue is.
My issue was that you changed the topic of the thread in order to issue a warning re:another topic. Given the resources that the OP has been requesting, one may safely assume what he means by "Centering Prayer" is traditional and orthodox. I do not want to "scare off" or "put down" those who may wish to explore this thread of Christian theology and prayer. I have to be consistent to be credible - I must be as willing to protect "centering prayers" as Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Southern Baptists, Coptic Orthodox ...
Don Awalt said:does the document if you bothered to read it
I read it in its entirety before deeming it irrelevant to the OP's question.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I love this line from the reading you suggested: "Mishna 6:..."
MJ. Smith said:In updating another reading list I discovered this reference that may be of interest - Jewish perspective Mishna 6: Way 1: Studying to Transcend, Way 2: Listening to Change | Rabbi David Rosenfeld
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Thanks.
Floyd Johnson said:Milkman said:Are there any books that guide a reader through John's Gospel using a lectio divina approach? Or am I thinking too much as a modern postmodern North American reformed person
http://www.amazon.com/Listening-through-John-Lectio-Divina/dp/0898273005/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1464322246&sr=1-1&keywords=lectio+divina+wesleyan
You can find more in the series here:
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Recently purchased it along with his other work in FL.
Thanks.
Steve said:Milkman said:Are there any books that guide a reader through John's Gospel using a lectio divina approach?
Lectio is about the living and abiding Word of God (1 Pt 1:23) ... "living and abiding". It's not a "commentary". In other words, there is no specific "program" of thoughts. "Program" meaning prescribed.
I would suggest consulting Fr. Thomas Keatings' resource, Finding Grace at the Center.
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MJ. Smith said:Don Awalt said:
but I am not sure what your issue is.
My issue was that you changed the topic of the thread in order to issue a warning re:another topic. Given the resources that the OP has been requesting, one may safely assume what he means by "Centering Prayer" is traditional and orthodox. I do not want to "scare off" or "put down" those who may wish to explore this thread of Christian theology and prayer. I have to be consistent to be credible - I must be as willing to protect "centering prayers" as Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Southern Baptists, Coptic Orthodox ...
Don Awalt said:does the document if you bothered to read it
I read it in its entirety before deeming it irrelevant to the OP's question.
So changing the topic was your issue? Why didn't you say that instead of the gibberish you said in reply? Why didn't you say this was off topic instead of letting me know how much you wanted to debate on the issue and that I was incorrect (even though I just posted a link to a document and never said anything disparaging about centering prayer, just to be wary of TYPES of centering prayer since we were discussing different sources? You're an MVP you are supposed to moderate not "put down" people yourself - me.
I am totally offended with "I don't want to debate you but I have 48 years experience" - it was an aggressive put down remark. Moderate, don't put people down yourself. Your ego gets tiresome when you disagree with someone.
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Don Awalt said:
Your ego gets tiresome when you disagree with someone.
I will try to be more careful. I thought I was but see your point.[:$]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Thank you MJ.
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Milkman said:
Or am I thinking too much as a modern postmodern North American reformed person?
Are you actually reformed or was that facetious? The concept of LD runs contrary to a reformed doctrine of Scripture.
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Dave Moser said:
The concept of LD runs contrary to a reformed doctrine of Scripture.
1. I'm not reformed although the OP is. But what you say doesn't match my understanding.
2. CLARITAS | Journal of Dialogue & Culture Vol. 2, No. 1 (March 2013)
Interpreting the Scriptures to Build Harmony and Peace: The Hermeneutic of John Calvin and Lectio Divina by Rev. Martin Hoegger Evangelical Reformed Church
3.
Presbyterian Record">
Private spirituality
In this balance of private and communal life, let’s first look at the private aspects of piety, which Calvin focused on scripture. Scripture takes the most important place in the Christian life; no one can have salvation and union with Christ without it. The Holy Spirit teaches as we read scripture with our hearts and minds. Calvin sees reading as a way of hearing—a passive reception of scripture is the aim, so that one is completely open to its message. This is typical of lectio divina, the monastic practice of holy reading, which Calvin adopted from the earlier tradition.
Scripture, properly understood with the mind, leads to doctrine, which is necessary for us, alongside the more intuitive knowledge gained from reading with the Holy Spirit. Calvin intended for the church pastor, through sermons, to operate as instructor on how to read scripture. The pastor was to be trained by the Institutes in order to understand the real meaning of scripture, and in turn to apply that meaning to individual church members. This would give individuals the ability to read scripture fruitfully on their own, using the ancient monastic practice of lectio divina, or divine reading.
Calvin pairs the sacrament (communion with bread and wine) with scripture. Without scripture, “our senses would gaze bewildered on an unmeaning object.” Calvin holds that the believer is taken to the mysteries of God upon seeing the sacrament, which confirms our faith in God, enhancing the effect of scripture.4. from a rather odd anti-lectio divina site
For the Love of His Truth A Christian Blog about Fundamental Biblical Facts">
Some places you will find Lectio Divina being promoted: Also see:
- Reformed Church in America denominational site: Lectio Divina
- Christian Reformed Home Missions site: The Invitation to Lectio Divina
- Defense of LD by Mark Moore: Really? Lectio Divina Is Dangerous?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I'm not even sure how to respond to your question. My first impression was to say to myself: "A comment like his tells a lot about his mistrust in others."
However, be that as it may... yes I'm a reformed, a Reformed Baptist. Not sure why someone would say they're one thing and yet be another.
Dave? My only purpose in starting this thread was my deep desire to be closer to the Lord. I found myself stagnating and drifting over the years and whether it's right or not my Bible study routine was beginning to get pretty boring (to me).
I don't think there's anything wrong in someone's desire to look at other faith traditions even if some others may poohoo on that outside tradition. For years I held to the idea that Mr. 666 came from Rome and anything that smacked of Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy was heresy to the bone. I was never taught that in Seminary nor did I preach it from the Sacred Desk. I only believed that true Biblical and historical Christianity didn't begin until the Reformation. How wrong I was. How arrogant I was. I foolish I was.
I neglected over a thousand years of church history. History that is full and wonderous with the elevated teachings of the Lord's ppl. People whose only desire was to honour Christ and walk a closer walk with Him.
I'm not so dull as to think that ALL teaching is correct. I do have a brain, but let me once again reiterate that MY ONLY DESIRE in this post is to glean from others their wisdom and thoughts on how I can use other teachings from other non-reformed communities to live a more deep and holy life before the Lord. Which I hope will lead to sharing the gospel and growing the Kingdom.
your humble servant...
mm.
Dave Moser said:Milkman said:Or am I thinking too much as a modern postmodern North American reformed person?
Are you actually reformed or was that facetious? The concept of LD runs contrary to a reformed doctrine of Scripture.
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Thanks for the reference of Soul Feast. Just got the Kindle edition.
Where do you find all these things?! [:)]
MJ. Smith said:Dave Moser said:The concept of LD runs contrary to a reformed doctrine of Scripture.
1. I'm not reformed although the OP is. But what you say doesn't match my understanding.
2. CLARITAS | Journal of Dialogue & Culture Vol. 2, No. 1 (March 2013)
Interpreting the Scriptures to Build Harmony and Peace: The Hermeneutic of John Calvin and Lectio Divina by Rev. Martin Hoegger Evangelical Reformed Church
3.
Presbyterian Record">
Private spirituality
In this balance of private and communal life, let’s first look at the private aspects of piety, which Calvin focused on scripture. Scripture takes the most important place in the Christian life; no one can have salvation and union with Christ without it. The Holy Spirit teaches as we read scripture with our hearts and minds. Calvin sees reading as a way of hearing—a passive reception of scripture is the aim, so that one is completely open to its message. This is typical of lectio divina, the monastic practice of holy reading, which Calvin adopted from the earlier tradition.
Scripture, properly understood with the mind, leads to doctrine, which is necessary for us, alongside the more intuitive knowledge gained from reading with the Holy Spirit. Calvin intended for the church pastor, through sermons, to operate as instructor on how to read scripture. The pastor was to be trained by the Institutes in order to understand the real meaning of scripture, and in turn to apply that meaning to individual church members. This would give individuals the ability to read scripture fruitfully on their own, using the ancient monastic practice of lectio divina, or divine reading.
Calvin pairs the sacrament (communion with bread and wine) with scripture. Without scripture, “our senses would gaze bewildered on an unmeaning object.” Calvin holds that the believer is taken to the mysteries of God upon seeing the sacrament, which confirms our faith in God, enhancing the effect of scripture.4. from a rather odd anti-lectio divina site
For the Love of His Truth A Christian Blog about Fundamental Biblical Facts">
Some places you will find Lectio Divina being promoted:
David Crowder in Praise Habit
Richard Foster (numerous places)
John Michael Talbot in The Universal Monk
Dan Kimball in The Emerging Church
Tony Jones in Divine Intervention
David Benner in Opening to God: Lectio Divina and Life as Prayer
Eugene Peterson in Eat This Book
Ken Boa in Healthy Spirituality and Conformed to His Image
Eugene Peterson in Message Bible for Kids
Keri Wyatt Kent in Listen
Multnomah University (OR)
Mike Bickle in IHOP
Cornerstone U. (MI)
Biblegateway.com
Marjorie Thompson in Soul Feast
John Ortberg in An Ordinary Day with Jesus
Adele Ahlberg Calhoun in Spiritual Disciplines Handbook
Christian Camp & Conference Association (CCCA)
Biola University (CA)
Larry Crabb in Real Church
Michael Casey in Sacred Reading
Saddleback Church
Willow Creek
Ruth Haley Barton (various)
Jan Johnson in When the Soul Listens
Leighton Ford in The Attentive Life
Lynne Babb in Joy Together
Richard Peace in Conversations in the New Testament
Mark Yaconelli in Downtime: Helping Teenagers Pray
Dallas Willard in Hearing God
Robert Webber in Ancient Future Faith
J.I. Packer in Praying
Mike King in Presence Centered Youth Ministry
Ivy Beckwith in Formational Children’s Ministry
Brian McLaren in Finding Our Way Again
Tony Campolo in The God of Intimacy
Timothy Keller at Redeemer Presbyterian0 -
Milkman said:
Where do you find all these things?!
Let's just say that years of supporting inquirer classes has led me to know how to find material related to just about any tradition fairly quickly. Once you get past differences in terminology ....
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Milkman said:
My first impression was to say to myself: "A comment like his tells a lot about his mistrust in others."
You called yourself both "modern" and "postmodern." Since postmodernism is a reaction directly against modernism - they are fundamentally incompatible - I thought you were being facetious.
That, coupled with the fact that the conception of how Scripture functions in a LD framework is incompatible with a reformed understanding of what Scripture is, made me unsure how similarly sarcastic you were also being about calling yourself reformed.
Any further response regarding a reformed doctrine of Scripture and the way LD treats Scripture is probably beyond the bounds of the forum guidelines.
____________________
MJ, I don't believe your sources have adequately understood Calvin and the Puritans. It appears they are either attributing a nearly neo-othrodox doctrine of Scripture to them or misunderstanding what their meditation looked like. The reformers encouraged scriptural prayer in the spirit of Donald Whitney's recent writings which might be confused with LD only superficially.
As for the anti-LD list, I don't recognize all the names on there but the only two I can identify as traditionally reformed are Keller and Packer. I've read both quite a bit (though not exhaustively) and would be enormously surprised if either actually teaches LD.
Again, further discussion is probably outside what the forum guidelines allow.
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You got problems buddy - give it a break.
Take the discussion somewhere else.
Dave Moser said:Milkman said:My first impression was to say to myself: "A comment like his tells a lot about his mistrust in others."
You called yourself both "modern" and "postmodern." Since postmodernism is a reaction directly against modernism - they are fundamentally incompatible - I thought you were being facetious.
That, coupled with the fact that the conception of how Scripture functions in a LD framework is incompatible with a reformed understanding of what Scripture is, made me unsure how similarly sarcastic you were also being about calling yourself reformed.
Any further response regarding a reformed doctrine of Scripture and the way LD treats Scripture is probably beyond the bounds of the forum guidelines.
MJ, I don't believe your sources have adequately understood Calvin and the Puritans. It appears they are either attributing a nearly neo-othrodox doctrine of Scripture to them or misunderstanding what their meditation looked like. The reformers encouraged scriptural prayer in the spirit of Donald Whitney's recent writings which might be confused with LD only superficially. Again, further discussion is probably outside what the forum guidelines allow.
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Dave Moser said:
MJ, I don't believe your sources have adequately understood Calvin and the Puritans.
I don't have the time, interest or need to research whether the error is in my sources or your understanding. I do know that my sources appeared to be reliable in the sense that they agree with sources on the history of the interpretation of scripture which I know to be reliable. In the forums, my interest is merely to provide accurate information not to encourage any particular conclusions - although I do detest illogical conclusions.
Dave Moser said:but the only two I can identify as traditionally reformed are Keller and Packer. I've read both quite a bit (though not exhaustively) and would be enormously surprised if either actually teaches LD.
http://www.redeemer.com/learn/resources_by_topic/prayer/prayer_and_fasting/lectio_divina_divine_reading/ makes me suspect you're information is not current.
This encourages me to fact check the other:
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ,
Thanks for the references! I'll read Keller and Packer with a more discerning eye in the future. (I suspect I hadn't caught this before because neither is primarily known as a theologian of prayer so my reading of them hadn't centered on those topics.)
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Milkman said:
I don't think there's anything wrong in someone's desire to look at other faith traditions even if some others may poohoo on that outside tradition. For years I held to the idea that Mr. 666 came from Rome and anything that smacked of Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy was heresy to the bone. I was never taught that in Seminary nor did I preach it from the Sacred Desk. I only believed that true Biblical and historical Christianity didn't begin until the Reformation. How wrong I was. How arrogant I was. I foolish I was.
I neglected over a thousand years of church history. History that is full and wonderous with the elevated teachings of the Lord's ppl. People whose only desire was to honour Christ and walk a closer walk with Him.
I'm not so dull as to think that ALL teaching is correct. I do have a brain, but let me once again reiterate that MY ONLY DESIRE in this post is to glean from others their wisdom and thoughts on how I can use other teachings from other non-reformed communities to live a more deep and holy life before the Lord. Which I hope will lead to sharing the gospel and growing the Kingdom.
Amen - I love your statement. I went through a similar dry spell 20+ years ago, but grew as I listen to those coming from far different traditions. I still do (MJ Smith - I am thinking of Mark Shea, here, among others). I come from a Wesleyan Tradition, but humbly realize that this tradition and my own beliefs do not identically match those God gave us. I believe they represent a close approximation, but people like the church fathers, Martin Luther, John Calvin, and others from many generation have much to teach me and the church.
God does use broken people - and each of us who serve Him are broken. If I do not believe this, I am not truly His.(I John 1:8)
Thank you for your comment.
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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Dave Moser said:
I'll read Keller and Packer with a more discerning eye in the future. (I suspect I hadn't caught this before because neither is primarily known as a theologian of prayer so my reading of them hadn't centered on those topics.)
From my reading of the anti-LD reformed, once I cut through the vocabulary and misrepresentation, I don't think the theological difference is related to prayer per se. It appears to be living word/dead text and spirit led/mental study. One of the reasons I'm so fixated on definitions is that the apparent cause of theological differences and the root cause are very different so communication and understanding are difficult. It is made more difficult by those trying to preserve their turf. In the case I am most familiar with Orthodox/Catholic split, it is amusing to watch as the theologians conversing with each other always find the same 3-4 points of difference ... none of which is a wide differences and none of which require only one side to give ground - think vocabulary and emphasis leading to the differences. However, theologians on both sides are quite willing to write polemics against each other with long lists of differences ... often missing the true differences found by those who talk to each other.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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From a fellow pilgrim to another - you're welcome. You humbled me.
I just hope my comments were not too harsh toward the fellow who questioned my OP and the reason for it.
mm.
Floyd Johnson said:Milkman said:I don't think there's anything wrong in someone's desire to look at other faith traditions even if some others may poohoo on that outside tradition. For years I held to the idea that Mr. 666 came from Rome and anything that smacked of Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy was heresy to the bone. I was never taught that in Seminary nor did I preach it from the Sacred Desk. I only believed that true Biblical and historical Christianity didn't begin until the Reformation. How wrong I was. How arrogant I was. I foolish I was.
I neglected over a thousand years of church history. History that is full and wonderous with the elevated teachings of the Lord's ppl. People whose only desire was to honour Christ and walk a closer walk with Him.
I'm not so dull as to think that ALL teaching is correct. I do have a brain, but let me once again reiterate that MY ONLY DESIRE in this post is to glean from others their wisdom and thoughts on how I can use other teachings from other non-reformed communities to live a more deep and holy life before the Lord. Which I hope will lead to sharing the gospel and growing the Kingdom.
Amen - I love your statement. I went through a similar dry spell 20+ years ago, but grew as I listen to those coming from far different traditions. I still do (MJ Smith - I am thinking of Mark Shea, here, among others). I come from a Wesleyan Tradition, but humbly realize that this tradition and my own beliefs do not identically match those God gave us. I believe they represent a close approximation, but people like the church fathers, Martin Luther, John Calvin, and others from many generation have much to teach me and the church.
God does use broken people - and each of us who serve Him are broken. If I do not believe this, I am not truly His.(I John 1:8)
Thank you for your comment.
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Milkman said:
Are there any books that guide a reader through John's Gospel using a lectio divina approach? Or am I thinking too much as a modern postmodern North American reformed person?
It's difficult to transition from three points and poem - setting scripture reading goals and rushing off to work or paperwork to the ancient practice of contemplative praying of Scriptures as a means of union with God.
If there are any resources or ideas floating out there to help integrate both centering prayer and the reading of Scripture in spiritual formation whether in FL, personal thoughts or websites I'm all ears.
mm.
I wonder if the Life with God Bible (Formally Renovare Spiritual Formation Bible) would interest you.
Unfortunately it is not available in Logos, although it has been requested previously https://community.logos.com/forums/p/68571/540628.aspx and here https://community.logos.com/forums/t/7317.aspx
(Sorry for the quality of the photos - my copy has been around for a while [:)])
From the introduction p. xxxiiA couple of snippets from John
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thank-you Sue
Looks very interesting. It's funny that you mention the NRSV. I just purchased a hard of The New Oxford Annotated Bible NRSV with the Apocrypha. I got it because it mainly reminded me of a very godly Seminary professor I had. Call it nostalgic, but I got it never the less.
Thanks again and I'll have to take a look for a hard copy at the Canadian Bible Society here in the City.
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Sue McIntyre said:Milkman said:Are there any books that guide a reader through John's Gospel using a lectio divina approach? Or am I thinking too much as a modern postmodern North American reformed person?
It's difficult to transition from three points and poem - setting scripture reading goals and rushing off to work or paperwork to the ancient practice of contemplative praying of Scriptures as a means of union with God.
If there are any resources or ideas floating out there to help integrate both centering prayer and the reading of Scripture in spiritual formation whether in FL, personal thoughts or websites I'm all ears.
mm.
I wonder if the Life with God Bible (Formally Renovare Spiritual Formation Bible) would interest you.
Unfortunately it is not available in Logos, although it has been requested previously https://community.logos.com/forums/p/68571/540628.aspx and here https://community.logos.com/forums/t/7317.aspx
(Sorry for the quality of the photos - my copy has been around for a while
) From the introduction p. xxxiiA couple of snippets from John
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Milkman said:
Thanks again and I'll have to take a look for a hard copy at the Canadian Bible Society here in the City.
mm
I just purchased a very good used copy for $4.00, including shipping. I saw other similar copies available, though I don't know how shipping to Canada would effect the price.
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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Thanks. I'm not so sure about the increase in the price, it's just the snow squalls and drifting snow that concerns me
Thanks I'll check it out.
Where was it that you saw the copies? or is that taboo info as far as FL protocols go?
Floyd Johnson said:Milkman said:Thanks again and I'll have to take a look for a hard copy at the Canadian Bible Society here in the City.
mm
I just purchased a very good used copy for $4.00, including shipping. I saw other similar copies available, though I do know how shipping to Canada would effect the price.
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I will use these three sites for used books:
Amazon (e.g. http://smile.amazon.com//gp/offer-listing/0061671746/tag=fhj-20)
Here is a sample from the BookFinder site given above:
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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Milkman said:
You got problems buddy - give it a break.
Take the discussion somewhere else
I suggest you study these things before diving head first into stuff like this - http://www.solasisters.com/2012/05/dangers-of-contemplative-prayer.html
You can rebuke me,report me,call me names whatever but as a concerned brother all I want is people to start discerning stuff like this before going all in. Actually first and foremost pray to the Holy Spirit Himself and see what the Spirit has to say on these matters before listening to anyone here and go from there.
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James Hiddle said:
You can rebuke me,report me,call me names whatever but as a concerned brother all I want is people to start discerning stuff like this before going all in. Actually first and foremost pray to the Holy Spirit Himself and see what the Spirit has to say on these matters before listening to anyone here and go from there
You would be more effective/credible if you showed the same willingness to reconsider your position as you are asking of others. If it would be helpful, I can provide you a warning as a concerned sister that your unbiblical and uninformed position provides exactly the opening that allows Satan undermine Christianity in our society. If you understand why it is inappropriate for me to do so (and I could do it very well) then you understand why your post is equally inappropriate. If you must express your concern, do it through channels other than the forums e.g. Faithlife.
So let's leave it at if you believe this:"He said to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’" (NRSV) then you believe in the premise of Centering Prayer. If you do not understand this, you do not understand Centering Prayer.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Sorry, this horse is dead, but I ran into a very funny example of Christian polemic writing - not an article mentioned in this thread but a reference used in an article mentioned in this thread. It provides a couple of delightful examples of why one needs to apply some logic as you read. Note this is an article written in a quite academic style and is quite convincing if you read it quickly.
"begin with the two universally recognized as most important" modifies two items that (a) would not be accepted as "most important" by at least 90% of Christians assuming they reflect the beliefs of their denominations ... top 5 yes (b) omits the first item that would come to mind for about 75% of Christians and (c) is worded in a manner that presumes a printing press. Note if only one word was more cautiously chosen it would be in the top 2-3.
followed by "What N and N mean by this is anyone’s guess" ... if the author doesn't know what is meant, how can he spend the next several paragraphs saying it is erroneous and perhaps dangerous?
followed by an amazing collection of if A and B share a single characteristic then they are the same thing - counting on the reader not to know enough to know they are quite different. It reminds me of the the old joke that everyone with a milk cow was a piano player ... they both required the same hand and finger strength. But at least I understand why the percentage of family homes with pianos has decreased. [;)]
Do people really fall for these writers?
(And, yes, you can find this level of writing on nearly any side of any topic ... this was just a hilariously evident case ... I mean who seriously says "I don't know what they said but they're wrong"?)
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Floyd Johnson said:MJ. Smith said:
Sorry, this horse is dead, but I ran into a very funny example of Christian polemic writing - not an article mentioned in this thread but a reference used in an article mentioned in this thread
Citation?
I'd carefully omitted it to avoid offending those who might agree with the intent of the article. But it's at http://www.svchapel.org/resources/articles/22-contemporary-issues/761-contemplative-prayer ... and the author did try to do his homework, he just didn't understand his sources -- much like i would be trying to write on TULIP. (Hey, I know the acronym even if I have to look up all but one or two of the petals). Let me give a concrete example of how I would sound as silly. I know (a) that TULIP is an acronym for a core element of Reformed theology (b) that one of the petals is "total depravity" (c) that the concept of "total depravity" appears to have the effect of denying some level of God-given truth in other religions (d) which leaves me wondering about the Noahide Covenant/Law in Reformed theology and (e) appears to negate the possibility of interfaith theological discussions in the sense that whoever that Sri-Lankan Methodist minister was envisioned it. That is genuinely all that I actual know about TULIP - as opposed to knowing where to look it up. Can you imagine how silly an article that I might write against TULIP would sound? I could spend a week or two learning some vocabulary to put together and string a nice chunk of references at the end ... but anyone who actually knew anything about the subject would be able to sit back and laugh. The main difference is that you would laugh at my ignorance rather than at my logic. And, no, I am not exaggerating my ignorance on the subject.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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