What is the best font?
Just fired up Logos on my new laptop and I have to say the text seems more blurred than before. The resolutions is 1368x768.
Any thoughts on what the best/clearest font is? Anyone else having this problem?
Dan
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blurred? Could you post a screen shot?
From the way you word it, it doesn't sound like a font problem.
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Daniel Arnott said:
Any thoughts on what the best/clearest font is?
This is actually a multi-million dollar question for companies like Adobe and Microsoft. I haven't brushed up on this for a while, but a while back I read a lot of design textbooks dealing especially with readability on different media (computer screen, TVs, billboards, etc). Most generally accepted as best fonts for reading on computer screens is Georgia, Verdana and Trebuchet.
Great article here: http://tinyurl.com/6r2drc
also, Bob Pritchitt commented that a much improved Reading Panel is in the works similar to the concept of http://lab.arc90.com/experiments/readability/
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Logos did update the font it uses as the default font and some other users complained that doing so made the font seem fuzzy. I don't think there is much Logos can do about that.
Probably those who need a different font would have to try a few from the Program Settings until they find one that works. The downside is that Logos has worked specifically with the Default font producer to get special characters in the font that Logos uses. Those might be absent from other fonts. My suggestion is to use an open type font that has an extended character set. Some of the basic fonts supplied with Windows would be a good starting point.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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I changed my default to Cambria. It seems to work better with my eyes, and I haven't run into any issues with it - at least, not yet.
Dell Studio XPS16 / Win 7 64bit / i7 Q720 @ 1.60GHz (2.80GHz Turbo) 6MB Cache / 4GB RAM / 500GM Hard Disk @ 7200 RPM / ATI Mobility RADEON® HD 4670 – 1GB
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I changed my default to Global User Interface, Default Text Size 120%, Program Scaling 100% on my 17inch monitor. It seems much better on my eyes but i hate reading on a screen, my eyes still hurts though there are some improvements!
I like this font a lot and would recommend it. Screen reading is not my cup of tea and i am amazed at how folks can read a whole book in their Logos library. I am not sure what the secret to this is or perhaps some of these books in their Logos Library have only a few pages[:P] [:D].
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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I tried Global User Interface and I almost like it. I am pretty much using Adobe Caslon Pro 100% default text size and 90% scaling on my 17-inch laptop. Everything looked good on my laptop until Logos tweaked the hinting in the default font (I think that is what the post about ti said had been done). Anyway, after the font tweaking, the default looked fuzzy on my laptop. It looks great on my desktop (20-inch widscreen, default font 100% text size, 100% scaling), though. So, I am thinking my graphics card in my laptop (integrated Intel - yuck!) is the problem.
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William J Cook said:
I am pretty much using Adobe Caslon Pro 100% default text size and 90% scaling on my 17-inch laptop.
Could not find this font in Logos 4 to try out. Its not an option in V4.
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Ted Hans said:
Could not find this font in Logos 4 to try out. Its not an option in V4.
Yep. I have it but I'm sure I got it with an Adobe product, not in the course of owning Windows or Windows products. It's one of those you have to buy.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Mark A. Smith said:Ted Hans said:
Could not find this font in Logos 4 to try out. Its not an option in V4.
Yep. I have it but I'm sure I got it with an Adobe product, not in the course of owning Windows or Windows products. It's one of those you have to buy.
Thanks Mark for the info.
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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I think the problem of blurry font in L4 is related to font antialiasing rather than the font itself (possibly the ?font color as well but I'm not sure about it).
Here's a screenshot of the same text in L3 and L4 at 100% font size, and the Mac A14 at a comparable font size. I don't know what you see but I think the L4 text looks "fluffier" (more white than black), L3 font is somewhere in the middle, and the Mac font appears the thickest and has most contrast (you may have to click into it to see how it's really like).
Assuming the font colors of L3 and L4 (PC) are the same, then I would think this is a result ?of the way that the font is antialiased, leading to its fluffy look. Antialiasing makes a font look smoother but takes off a bit of the contrast from the font because of the "fuzzy" edge. If that it is the case, one solution is to use a "thicker" font. I'm wondering if the non-antialiased font is not too ugly, then maybe we would benefit from a setting to turn on and off antialiasing?
By the way, I think the Mac fonts are the most readable, and I hope that they are staying this way. [:)]
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Well, I had to go back to some posts by Bob Pritchett. It was the hinting of the default font called Athelas. It is what caused the sharpness at the resolutions we most likel rn on our PC's - 92 dpi. Hinting is very technical - but it is a mathematical set of instructions to the font for specific point sizes. The hint tells the font which pixels to turn on, that is, to acutally distort the font to look better at certain sizes. Anti-aliasing is also mathematical in that it uses subpixel technology to shade the edges of the outsides of fonts to give the appearance of smoothing. But, without proper hinting, anti-aliasing would really make it look worse.
Bob suggested turning you resolution the 200% to get the effect. Now, when you do, the default font is beautiful. This is because the sytem now has many more pixels to work with and can do a much better job of renedering. And, if we all had the screen real estate to do this and still be productive, it would be fantastic. He also siad that WPF renders differently that the standard Windows system. But he said that WPF 4.0 is to come out soon and hopes that it will improve the font rendering. I hope so, too.
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You can find a lot on the internet about WPF 4 as it is very close to release, coming out along with the Microsoft development tool Visual Studio 2010.
The WPF text rendering stack has been completely replaced – a change that brings with it significant improvements to text rendering clarity, configurability, and support for international languages. The new text stack now supports display-optimized character layout, to produce text with comparable sharpness to Win32/GDI text. Example:
WPF’s new text stack also now supports explicitly selecting aliased, grayscale, or ClearType rendering modes:
The new text stack allows optimizing text hinting and snapping for either animated or static text. Additionally, the new text stack now supports fonts with embedded bitmaps. This allows many East Asian fonts to render with the sharpness to which Win32 users have grown accustomed.
This link seems to be the definitive source on the improvements, with more images. Note it's a software development-oriented blog...
http://blogs.msdn.com/text/archive/2009/08/24/wpf-4-0-text-stack-improvements.aspx
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I thought this was an issue of text rendering, did not realize that the issue is so complicated. [:P]
The WPF 4 looks promising. The "Display formatting" gives something closer to the text on Mac L4 which I am totally happy about. I hope we get to select between the various rendering options (such as ClearType, Grayscale and Aliased) in L4 when WPF 4 is released.
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Observation: related technical issue on flat panel displays - hardwired for one resolution - choosing screen resolution less than hardwired appears fuzzy.
Related to best font is color combination - foreground and background.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Thanks for all the responses! turns out my new LED screen was duff so that's getting sent back! For the record Logos runs a treat on a Core i7, 4 Gig, 7200rpm drive with a 1 Gig dedicated card
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I've been using "Ebrima", and rather like it.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Dan DeVilder said:
I've been using "Ebrima", and rather like it.
Peace to you, Dan! *smile*
Looks like a nice font! Where did you get it?
...... Mel
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Milford Charles Murray said:
Peace to you, Dan! *smile*
Looks like a nice font! Where did you get it?
...... Mel
Milford Charles Murray said:Dan DeVilder said:I've been using "Ebrima", and rather like it.
I agree it looks nice. I am asking the same question here, where did you get it?
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Ted Hans said:Milford Charles Murray said:
Peace to you, Dan! *smile*
Looks like a nice font! Where did you get it?
...... Mel
Milford Charles Murray said:Dan DeVilder said:I've been using "Ebrima", and rather like it.
I agree it looks nice. I am asking the same question here, where did you get it?
Ted
Ebrima is a Microsoft font - http://www.microsoft.com/typography/Fonts/family.aspx?FID=371. I have it but don't know what product it came with--Win 7, Office 12, or something else.
πάντα εἰς δόξαν θεοῦ ποιεῖτε
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Thank you, Gary! *smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Milford Charles Murray said:
Thank you, Gary! *smile*
yes, and I am sorry, I failed to "email me" responses and did not see the queries. Apologies all around! Glad Gary gave the answer, because I don't know where I got it. I DO run Win 7 and Office 2010 Beta. And currently have no added/outside fonts, other than one or two "hebraized Roman lettering."
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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I noticed that your font looked quite nice, as well, and ran a couple of searched on the 'Ebrima' font. Turns out, according to the Wikipedia page, that font's Latin characters are all based on Segoe, one of the default Vista/Win 7 fonts.
In other words, if you choose 'Segoe,' it should look exactly the same as 'Ebrima,' assuming you're using Latin (i.e., English) characters!
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Calibri FTW. I was an Arial man until Calibri came out.
Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"
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Jonathan Burke said:
Calibri FTW. I was an Arial man until Calibri came out.
i like Calibri, too, and often use it in Word. However, Ebrima seems a little less jumbled when I read in Logos--I was just checking it out again yesterday. It is good, just like Ebrima a tad better.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Christopher David said:
I noticed that your font looked quite nice, as well, and ran a couple of searched on the 'Ebrima' font. Turns out, according to the Wikipedia page, that font's Latin characters are all based on Segoe, one of the default Vista/Win 7 fonts.
In other words, if you choose 'Segoe,' it should look exactly the same as 'Ebrima,' assuming you're using Latin (i.e., English) characters!
Would there be any difference? If not, why both of those? Or does Ebrima do better with Greek/non-Latin?
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Dan DeVilder said:
Would there be any difference? If not, why both of those? Or does Ebrima do better with Greek/non-Latin?
On my Win-7 machine there were blocks in the Greek words in several places, so I went back to Calibri. (However, I did like the Ebrima.) So far so good. And if it hadn't been for this discussion, I might still be stuck with Arial. heh....
Odd note (off topic): I saw this thread yesterday dated the 5th in the General section; today (7th) this thread shows up in the Logos_3 section. Since it seems to take 2 days for threads to get out to me via RSS, d'ya suppose that this same thread will show up in Logos_4 section on the 9th? It is indeed wearying to click on an interesting thread title only to find that the user is chatting about Apple's products, or, like this time, read (sometimes again) threads that wander from area to area.
{charley}
[<b>edited by:</b> Dr. Charles A. Wootten at 7:32 PM (GMT -8) on Mon, Jun 7 2010]
AND, after Chuck Colson's recent BREAKPOINT chatting favorably about Steve Jobs, my respect for the company went up measurably.running Logos Bible Software 6.0a: Collector's Edition on HP e9220y (AMD Phenom II X4 2.60GHz 8.00GB 64-bit Win 7 Pro SP1) & iPad (mini) apps.
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Mark A. Smith said:
Yep. I have it but I'm sure I got it with an Adobe product, not in the course of owning Windows or Windows products. It's one of those you have to buy.
So Mark, are you no longer using "Times New Roman"? (snicker)
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Dan DeVilder said:Christopher David said:
I noticed that your font looked quite nice, as well, and ran a couple of searched on the 'Ebrima' font. Turns out, according to the Wikipedia page, that font's Latin characters are all based on Segoe, one of the default Vista/Win 7 fonts.
In other words, if you choose 'Segoe,' it should look exactly the same as 'Ebrima,' assuming you're using Latin (i.e., English) characters!
Would there be any difference? If not, why both of those? Or does Ebrima do better with Greek/non-Latin?
Just started using a laptop that has Vista, and no "Ebrima". BUT, thanks to you, I started using Segoe UI, and it looks nearly (exactly?) the same. Thanks!
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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I have been reading the forums and have found that this fuzzy font issue has been an issue all the way back in Logos 3, (I remember it being an issue back then). I've read of posts that were hoping for a fix or resolution in January 2010. It's not February 2011 and the issue still have not been resolved.
Is there any hope? The text I am typing is far superior to what is displayed in Logos 4. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but it is extremely frustrating and there does not seem to be any hope for change that I can find in the forums. Perhaps I have missed it the post explaining this. Can someone please offer some assurance?
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Tim, I am not sure what to tell you. I really don't have a fuzzy font issue with L4, unless my expectations are lower than yours. I don't even think "this is fuzzy." Whether in my resources or my notes.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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What does Logos use as the default font? If this was stated earlier in the thread my apologies for missing it.
Pastor, rural Baptist church
Notebook: Dell Precision 4400; Core 2 Duo, 2.5gh; 8Gb RAM; NVIDIA FX 770M w/ 512Mb; Win7 Pro 64-bit; Novabench 510; WEI 5.9
Netbook: MSI Wind 12: Novabench 198; WEI 3.1
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Ted Hans said:Milford Charles Murray said:
Peace to you, Dan! *smile*
Looks like a nice font! Where did you get it?
...... Mel
Milford Charles Murray said:Dan DeVilder said:I've been using "Ebrima", and rather like it.
I agree it looks nice. I am asking the same question here, where did you get it?
Ted
Not only do I not know where he got it, I don't know where I got it. In fact, I didn't know I had it until now. I tend to prefer a font with serifs and therefore have been using Bookman Old Style. The problem with that is that the font isn't complete so that if I set the default notes font to BOS, the Greek doesn't reproduce properly (the old problem of rectangles for those characters which have precombined accents). Since I frequently quote part of the text in the note title, I can't use BOS for a default note font. It would be nice if we could specify the font in notes for Latin scripts, Greek, Hebrew and Syriac as in resources. I should think it wouldn't be too difficult, but what do I know? As to my prefered font -- I use Bookman Old Style for Latin scripts (It has serifs and is more readable than TNR), KadmosU for Greek, SBL Hebrew for Swahili [;)] and Serto Jerusalem for Syriac.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:Ted Hans said:Milford Charles Murray said:
Peace to you, Dan! *smile*
Looks like a nice font! Where did you get it?
...... Mel
Milford Charles Murray said:Dan DeVilder said:I've been using "Ebrima", and rather like it.
I agree it looks nice. I am asking the same question here, where did you get it?
Ted
Not only do I not know where he got it, I don't know where I got it.
LOL, I am with you on that.
George Somsel said:It would be nice if we could specify the font in notes for Latin scripts, Greek, Hebrew and Syriac as in resources. I should think it wouldn't be too difficult, but what do I know?
i think it sounds like a great idea. but what do I know . . . !
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Dan, thank you for responding to my post. When I refer to "fuzzy" fonts, I don't see the clarity in the fonts rendered in L4 that I do when I'm surfing the web, . . . (or even writing this post in the Logos forums editor). In reading this text that I am writing, it does not matter how close to the screen I get, the font is crisp and clear, (like cleartype), however, that does not occur on L4. Regardless of the font being used in L4, I'm finding that the edges of the fonts are basically not "cleartype". . . . and that's the difference.
Is it a technology that is causing this limitation? HTML has clear, non-jagged fonts, but not those found in Logos. Again, I'm not trying to instigate here at all, I'm just trying to understand why this is the case, and if it will improve to the point where we can apply a "cleartype" setting to L4, (as one can in Windows), or is it a rendering engine that needs to be updated?
Thanks!
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Tim Chesonis said:
Dan, thank you for responding to my post. When I refer to "fuzzy" fonts, I don't see the clarity in the fonts rendered in L4 that I do when I'm surfing the web, . . . (or even writing this post in the Logos forums editor). In reading this text that I am writing, it does not matter how close to the screen I get, the font is crisp and clear, (like cleartype), however, that does not occur on L4. Regardless of the font being used in L4, I'm finding that the edges of the fonts are basically not "cleartype". . . . and that's the difference.
I think it's either your eyes or your mind. I see no difference. The typeface in Logos is perfectly clear to me (BTW: My vision is 20/15 -- lasik corrected).
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George,
I have taken a screenshot with Snagit from today's homepage, and also from the e-mail response I received from the Logos Community forums in my Gmail account. Do you really not see the difference? Does anybody else see the difference? Both images were taken from the same computer. Also, the homepage snapshot is utilizing the "Ebrima" font at 110%. I've tried numerous fonts for L4, and they all display with the same fuzzy overlay as seen on the "Greeting" snapshot. Even if you think that the font in the e-mail is larger and therefore can't compare . . . how about the font that I am writing with right now? This font is clear, and the L4 font is fuzzy.
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Tim Chesonis said:
I have taken a screenshot with Snagit from today's homepage, and also from the e-mail response I received from the Logos Community forums in my Gmail account. Do you really not see the difference? Does anybody else see the difference? Both images were taken from the same computer. Also, the homepage snapshot is utilizing the "Ebrima" font at 110%. I've tried numerous fonts for L4, and they all display with the same fuzzy overlay as seen on the "Greeting" snapshot. Even if you think that the font in the e-mail is larger and therefore can't compare . . . how about the font that I am writing with right now? This font is clear, and the L4 font is fuzzy.
I see a difference in your screenshot, but I see no difference if I bring up the NET bible for Gal 1.1-5 on my computer. Obviously, it is unlikely that you took both the screenshot of the NET bible AND the forum post at one time. There are a number of factors which could account for the difference. Perhaps you should check the default text size in your program settings and adjust the size of the text display for each resource separately.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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The L4 font issue that I am having is the same in ALL L4 resources, and is not specific to the NET bible resource. In fact, that "NET" snapshot was taken from the homepage, and all other articles have the same fuzzy look.
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Tim Chesonis said:
The L4 font issue that I am having is the same in ALL L4 resources, and is not specific to the NET bible resource. In fact, that "NET" snapshot was taken from the homepage, and all other articles have the same fuzzy look.
I never said it was specific to the NET bible. Since you used it, I used it so as to compare apples to apples. I think it relates to your default font size in your program settings.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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What then, are the settings that you are using? Program scaling, Default Font, Default Text Size?
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Tim Chesonis said:
What then, are the settings that you are using? Program scaling, Default Font, Default Text Size?
I'm using 100% for the default text size and recently changed to TNR since I prefer a font with serifs though I really prefer Bookman Old Style. The problem with BOS is that it isn't properly represented for Greek, and I recently discovered that it apparently lacks some other features as well. As far as the text size for individual resources, that depends on how large you want the text to be -- I use the fifth or sixth mark on the scale.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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What fonts does Logos 4 default to.
Pastor, rural Baptist church
Notebook: Dell Precision 4400; Core 2 Duo, 2.5gh; 8Gb RAM; NVIDIA FX 770M w/ 512Mb; Win7 Pro 64-bit; Novabench 510; WEI 5.9
Netbook: MSI Wind 12: Novabench 198; WEI 3.1
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Steve Johnson said:
What fonts does Logos 4 default to.
I'm not sure. Bob mentioned it once, but I've forgotten (Miracle !).
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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I like Georgia (shown below).
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"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"
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