Over $300 for L7 Features? Really?
Comments
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You make a compelling argument.
However, I am bothered by the fact my "light library" cost over 2 grand, and that every time I turn around, there's a new Logos level.
I know their excuse is "we are a business" but, there is also something to be said about HOW they run a business. Integrity is huge. I have never felt this company had integrity-- I have seen attempts to show integrity after the fact, and for that I do give credit, I have also seen too many issues with "oops we didn't mean that" type advertising errors. I won't say it's intentional, altho, it seems like it, because that would be bad. But, I will say, when they do come up, they do make good (or better on it).
That all said... I don't know if I would consider $90 a year a good value. Maybe when I bought L-3, but $2000+ later, I can't see me giving this company too many more dollars. Maybe your rationale is worth considering, however.0 -
Batman said:
No, you are not alone.
I find this ridiculous.
I myself am what I will call a "light user", with "only" 1660 resources; yet, I have spent well over $2000 for this collection of stuff that I have to force myself to make time to figure out how to even use it. It was supposed to be a $400 investment, but, has turned out to be 5-6x that!
As far as upgrading? NEVER AGAIN! You are correct, in my not so humble opinion, there is not even one resource that I considered buying even separately. Nothing! And to pay ANOTHER $300ish?
I just wish I could find someone who wants my license. I'd go back to the better $100 software titles.
Better? How? For one, I could use them. For two, they weren't money hungry (in appearance). You bought their product, and none of this constant barrage of ads, in email, on the home page. I never had to go to settings to tell it to not place ads everywhere.
I've been with Logos since 2009. I purchased L-3 and now, not even 10 years later, I've seen four MORE versions? That's crazier than Windows! Even greedy MS has taken longer to release 4 upgrades to Windows!
No, you are definitely not alone. I'm pretty much done with Logos. I understand being in business to make money, but this is ridiculous, and I am wondering what Jesus would do if he were here physically, or if Peter would react similarly to how he spoke to Simon the sorcerer.I will give you 100. for your license. If it is worth less than a 100. program you are replacing it with that should be fair.
Are we really comparing Faithlife to Simon the sorcerer? Really?
I am hoping that Logos keeps innovating and bringing out new features. Looking forward to seeing what new features will be offered in Logos 8.
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Batman said:
I've been with Logos since 2009. I purchased L-3 and now, not even 10 years later, I've seen four MORE versions? That's crazier than Windows! Even greedy MS has taken longer to release 4 upgrades to Windows!
In 2009, Logos 4 came out.(1)
In 2009, Windows 7 came out. (1)
In 2012, Logos 5 came out. (2)
In 2012, Windows 8 came out. (2)
In 2013, Windows 8.1 came out. (3)
In 2014, Logos 6 came out. (3)
In 2015, Windows 10 came out. (4)
In 2016, Logos 7 came out. (4)
In 2009, OS X 10.6 came out. (1)
In 2011, OS X 10.7 came out. (2)
In 2012, OS X 10.8 came out. (3)
In 2013, OS X 10.9 came out. (4)
In 2014, OS X 10.10 came out. (5)
In 2015, OS X 10.11 came out. (6)
In 2016, OS X 10.12 will come out. (7)
Batman said:I have spent well over $2000 for this collection of stuff that I have to force myself to make time to figure out how to even use it. It was supposed to be a $400 investment, but, has turned out to be 5-6x that!
It takes time to learn how to use any kind of software. If you want to use Logos "lightly", it take less than a minute to learn how to put a basic search into the command bar after it loads for the first time, and you should be capable of running guides and other basic document use within an hour, if you know nothing whatever about the software and look in the help file and struggle to use technology.
As to how much you spent, that's been entirely up to you the entire time.
Upgrading to the next version of Logos has always been free, as long as you were willing to wait a few months after launch.
Batman said:You are correct, in my not so humble opinion, there is not even one resource that I considered buying even separately. Nothing!
If you don't see another resource that interests you, don't buy any.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Batman said:
No, you are not alone.
I find this ridiculous.
I myself am what I will call a "light user", with "only" 1660 resources; yet, I have spent well over $2000 for this collection of stuff that I have to force myself to make time to figure out how to even use it. It was supposed to be a $400 investment, but, has turned out to be 5-6x that!
As far as upgrading? NEVER AGAIN! You are correct, in my not so humble opinion, there is not even one resource that I considered buying even separately. Nothing! And to pay ANOTHER $300ish?
I just wish I could find someone who wants my license. I'd go back to the better $100 software titles.
Better? How? For one, I could use them. For two, they weren't money hungry (in appearance). You bought their product, and none of this constant barrage of ads, in email, on the home page. I never had to go to settings to tell it to not place ads everywhere.
I've been with Logos since 2009. I purchased L-3 and now, not even 10 years later, I've seen four MORE versions? That's crazier than Windows! Even greedy MS has taken longer to release 4 upgrades to Windows!
No, you are definitely not alone. I'm pretty much done with Logos. I understand being in business to make money, but this is ridiculous, and I am wondering what Jesus would do if he were here physically, or if Peter would react similarly to how he spoke to Simon the sorcerer.Sorry but I would have to greatly disagree with you, to compare Faithlife to Simon the sorcerer is a bit of a stretch. We have invested a lot of money on Logos Bible Software resources and the last thing I want is for Faithlife/Logos to go out of business. I want them to make a profit and to continue to grow as a business and continue to provide new features and tools. The fact that they invest alot of time and money always producing new tools, hiring in house scholars, publishing their own study bible and tools is mind boggling and monumental in my opinion. I don't see any other bible software company doing the same thing Faithlife is doing.
We all have the option to upgrade or to not upgrade, you can stay with Logos 6 and you are not forced to upgrade. If you upgrade you are paying for new tools that Faithlife spent a lot of time and money developing. Now the questions is do you want to pay to have the new tools or are you OK with what you have? Simple as that. I am personally glad that Faithlife is constantly improving the program and I am glad they dont just sit there and do nothing an continue to innovate, because that is what a software company is supposed to be about. I actually find $100 a year to have the latest and greatest from a top notch software company to be a very low price.
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Diego Lara said:
I actually find $100 a year to have the latest and greatest from a top notch software company to be a very low price.
Totally agree. Actually based on what the going rate for software I almost wonder if that price is sustainable. Huge value.
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Sigh ... I guess I'm the only one who remembers Chippy and Simon the Sorcerer.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Vista came out worldwide 2007.
I purchased L-3 in Apr 2009.
But thanks for proving the point I was making.
I've probably used Bible software since before you were born (Ok probably not). But for over 20 years. Quite frankly, I was much happier with other software than Logos.
I'm fully aware of the fact I have chosen to buy anything further I have bought. I am also aware that complicated software requires a learning curve. For one, however, I don't have the time it takes to learn it, which is probably based more on the fact I have no motivation, other than I keep pouring more money into this in hopes I will find use for it, than I do a clunker car.
That's how I feel; because thats just the way it is.0 -
Tony Thomas said:
So, no real way to try it out for a month or two and see if you actually benefit from the features?
We assume that operating the 30 day money back guarantee will be difficult but Faithlife have not said that they are not applying it to NOW subscriptions. I am sure that if you rang Customer Service and explained that NOW really had nothing of interest for you they would find a way of doing the kind thing for you.
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Acts 8:20 Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God.
That is what I am comparing. In Logos' case, rather than buying, it's selling. So, in that sense, yes.
Don't worry about what's in L-8, because if things are true to form, they are already working on L-10. They were working on 5 or 6 while 3 was out.
And as far as innovating and bringing out new features is concerned, that's great. But, I find this whole "we're a business" to be more about greed than creating a Bible program to help people study. My opinion, yes. Might I be wrong? Yes. But, when you think about what everyone has actually paid for their Bible program, I am betting they could have gone to the best Christian universities.0 -
Mike Binks said:Tony Thomas said:
So, no real way to try it out for a month or two and see if you actually benefit from the features?
We assume that operating the 30 day money back guarantee will be difficult but Faithlife have not said that they are not applying it to NOW subscriptions. I am sure that if you rang Customer Service and explained that NOW really had nothing of interest for you they would find a way of doing the kind thing for you.
If they are truly interested in building a subscriber base, then a "try before you buy" program is a necessity, especially when you don't have a monthly subscription option. I cannot believe that Logos is oblivious to this.
Director of Zoeproject
www.zoeproject.com
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Batman said:
Quite frankly, I was much happier with other software than Logos.
Thankful for Logos visual filter highlighting so can "see" range of Greek verbal expression in English (along with hiding verse numbers):
Apologies since do not know of other Bible software than can highlight range of Greek verbal expression in Greek, English, German, Latin, and Spanish. Greek has a richer verbal system than English so verbal nuance/intensive can be lacking in English.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Batman said:
But, I find this whole "we're a business" to be more about greed than creating a Bible
Not to mention the Capitalist rats that make money charging us for printed bibles - just so they can line their pockets.
Not to mention the Capitalist rats that make money charging us to build churches - just so they can line their pockets
Not to mention the Capitalist rats that take our tithes just so that they can have a living (and then they expect us to go to bible study in our free time with no pay)
On the whole I'm disgusted by the whole lot of them.
Or maybe that is how it is in an imperfect world.
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Mike Binks said:Tony Thomas said:
So, no real way to try it out for a month or two and see if you actually benefit from the features?
We assume that operating the 30 day money back guarantee will be difficult but Faithlife have not said that they are not applying it to NOW subscriptions. I am sure that if you rang Customer Service and explained that NOW really had nothing of interest for you they would find a way of doing the kind thing for you.
You are correct they will apply the 30 day money back guarantee: see here under refunds subscription auto-renewal policy
Luuk
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Diego Lara said:
They should definitely provide a one month free trial, by disabling all the discounts so that no one abuses the free trial just to buy books at a discounted price. I agree I probably would hesitate to sign up for an entire year if I had not tried it first.
You could buy the feature set for $90 and return it after 30 days. That gives you (almost) a trial of Logos Now.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Tony Thomas said:
If they are truly interested in building a subscriber base, then a "try before you buy" program is a necessity, especially when you don't have a monthly subscription option. I cannot believe that Logos is oblivious to this.
I'm pretty sure that Faithlife already had a meaningful subscriber base before L7 came out, and I'm quite certain that it's expanded significantly this week.
Perhaps Faithlife will bring back a Try-before-you-buy option; perhaps it won't. It doesn't need to.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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With all due respect this mandate was given to believers who had only the Pentateuch and a few letters. So easy to get caught up in technology while missing the importance of the Holy Spirit. Do not get me wrong. Knowing the original language can be of help, but was the spirit expecting all of this. How did smith widdlesworth survive. An uneducated Plumber? In many respects he was a lot further down the road. I refuse to be influenced by the profit motive.
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Not saying it isn't great.
When does it stop? It's never ending.
And no, Im not saying they should stop innovating. But, somewhere this becomes insane. That's all I'm saying.0 -
Nice try. But, I will agree with that sentence.
Mike Binks said:Batman said:But, I find this whole "we're a business" to be more about greed than creating a Bible
Not to mention the Capitalist rats that make money charging us for printed bibles - just so they can line their pockets.
Not to mention the Capitalist rats that make money charging us to build churches - just so they can line their pockets
Not to mention the Capitalist rats that take our tithes just so that they can have a living (and then they expect us to go to bible study in our free time with no pay)
On the whole I'm disgusted by the whole lot of them.
Or maybe that is how it is in an imperfect world.
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Batman said:
Not saying it isn't great.
When does it stop? It's never ending.
And no, Im not saying they should stop innovating. But, somewhere this becomes insane. That's all I'm saying.It can stop for you wherever you want it to. Some people probably still use Logos 3 and get along happily. Others like more, but you don't have to do so.
Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC
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Be careful, now. The groupies may get restless again.
I agree with you. Knowing the original languages are helpful. Technology is also great. But, at the same time, something just seems out of whack here. There's allowing the Spirit to teach us, and there's using technology to help us; I think both are needed (without the Spirit, the technology is worthless). But once again, something with this whole system here is way out of whack! I see packages that would be half what a new low end car would cost. I've seen colleges that charge less than what they are charging on some collections.
I get it-- NOBODY is forcing anyone to buy anything. But, over the past 6-7 years I see I have racked up over $2000 in a system that is so complicated I have lost any desire to use. (People say it's easy. Sure. But, I find myself going online to get a verse rather than using my $2000+ software. Why? Because it's much much quicker. And, if I know part of a verse I can google it and get it in seconds, whereas Logos comes up blank).Houseonarock said:With all due respect this mandate was given to believers who had only the Pentateuch and a few letters. So easy to get caught up in technology while missing the importance of the Holy Spirit. Do not get me wrong. Knowing the original language can be of help, but was the spirit expecting all of this. How did smith widdlesworth survive. An uneducated Plumber? In many respects he was a lot further down the road. I refuse to be influenced by the profit motive.
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There's still something wrong. Very seriously wrong.
One day I will have to give an account for my words today. And so will Logos and everyone else. (Not for my words. For their actions, and their words).
But at this point, there is something very seriously wrong here.0 -
Batman said:
But, over the past 6-7 years I see I have racked up over $2000 in a system that is so complicated I have lost any desire to use.
I do not know what titles or how many books you were able to obtain for that amount of money, but there are probably many on the forums who could say they easily spent more than that on their physical libraries. Depending on one's needs, it is possible to spend that amount on just a few high-end physical commentary sets. Yes, Logos resources purchased individually can be more expensive than buying their dead tree equivalents, but base packages often paint a very different picture. For example, it would cost me just a hair over $600 to upgrade to Gold 7, which would add to my library the Tyndale commentaries, the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, the Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary, and many other resources. There is no way I could get everything I would gain from Gold 7 for anywhere near $600 in print, and even if I could, I still would not have all the extra tagging and features included in Gold 7. Regardless of whether I need the resources or whether I find them worth what Faithlife charges, I certainly cannot accuse Faithlife of being greedy when what they sell would be less expensive than buying the same resources in print.
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Batman said:
And no, Im not saying they should stop innovating. But, somewhere this becomes insane. That's all I'm saying.
Or do you mean drives the user insane?
My perspective: Computerization of Bible Study will come to two distinct phases:
- Computerizing the resources and methods of the dead-tree format era (partway through this phase).
- True innovation of methods made possible only by computerization (not here yet)
What I have gained (and lost) thus far in phase 1:
- decrease in physical activity of going to library, walking to and from bookshelves, lifting and setting down books
- decrease in frustration over where is volume blank which I had a minute ago ...
- increased speed in finding items within a volume whether or not the volume was well indexed
- no change in the need to know the vocabulary of a particular discipline, religious tradition or author
- decrease in use of short term memory to recall what from volume A I was looking up in volume B
- major increase in what I can look up/search for within a volume (think of things like tagging of pronouns to referents)
- decrease in paper consumption and its storage in file cabinets and file card boxes
But generally what I can do it a simple transference of tasks from paper to screen with no underlying paradigm shift. I suspect that the shift from manual to printed texts and the resultant decrease of reliance on memory was not dissimilar.
Where are we in this process? Well, the interactives are giving me what I used to go to Bible Handbook charts for. And indexing sections such as Ancient Literature, Catholic Topical Index, Systematic Theologies are beginning to provide what I went to the reference section of the library for ... although in a bit coarser units. So I'd say we aren't really that far along.
Oh, yes, there are some nods towards the progress in visual presentation aids as used in public communication (i.e. Power Point type progress) but there is very little progress in visualization as a tool of rapid comparison and understanding (yes, morph rivers and narrative charts are inklings of possibilities).
But relatively simple features like visual drill down of cross-references, pattern recognition ... computer science is still so far ahead of Bible Study software ...
Batman said:When does it stop? It's never ending.
I'd ask when does it take a breather ... hopefully not until we have a paradigm shift so that we are taking advantage of the new possibilities the media offers rather than simply moving paper habits to screen habits.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Logos seems to be wanting more and more $$$ each upgrade cycle. They have totally ignored the lower end of the market. Their competitors are much better at attracting people to their platform with free (public domain) resources or inexpensive packages. That introduces them to the platform and eventually they buy more and more resources. Logos is taking the opposite approach. I bought Scholar and Bronze years ago and now they want to keep selling me more features at premium prices with few new resources. I own one of the major competitor's packages and pay about $50 every few years and get all the features of the new version.
Director of Zoeproject
www.zoeproject.com
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Tony Thomas said:
They have totally ignored the lower end of the market.
Somehow, providing a 4 year high school program strikes me as getting the lower end of the market into Faithlife products. And the average "pew warmer" can easily never move beyond a starter package - with occasional purchase of individual resources for parish based faith formation programs. I don't understand why people feel pressured to upgrade or have this year's features or the most current pre-packaged library. That certainly isn't how I build my paper library.
In fact by giving me free updates of resources and software, Logos is saying I don't have to upgrade - ever.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Tony Thomas said:
They have totally ignored the lower end of the market.
The lowest part of the market doesn't spend much, and most FL customers in the pre-subscription/membership era bought themselves one base package and never bought anything again. Bob has written and explained both of those things on the forums.
Right now, the particularly low end of the market can look to the very budget-friendly lower level Logos/Verbum Cloud offerings.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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SineNomine said:Tony Thomas said:
They have totally ignored the lower end of the market.
The lowest part of the market doesn't spend much, and most FL customers in the pre-subscription/membership era bought themselves one base package and never bought anything again. Bob has written and explained both of those things on the forums.
Right now, the particularly low end of the market can look to the very budget-friendly lower level Logos/Verbum Cloud offerings.
Well, I started with the John MacArthur CD set for $25 at Sam's Club back in the Libronix days. When Logos 4 came out, I bought the lowest-end package (Bible Study Library). My history says I have spent $2600+ with Logos. And more in Libronix packages bought elsewhere. So, I guess I am an anomaly.
As for Logos Cloud, it looks like it was an experiment that didn't pan out. You can get much more from free apps.
Director of Zoeproject
www.zoeproject.com
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Batman said:
No, you are definitely not alone. I'm pretty much done with Logos. I understand being in business to make money, but this is ridiculous, and I am wondering what Jesus would do if he were here physically, or if Peter would react similarly to how he spoke to Simon the sorcerer.
Wait, Faithlife is trying to make a profit so they can try to purchase the gift of the Holy Spirit?
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Andrew Zoll said:Batman said:
No, you are definitely not alone. I'm pretty much done with Logos. I understand being in business to make money, but this is ridiculous, and I am wondering what Jesus would do if he were here physically, or if Peter would react similarly to how he spoke to Simon the sorcerer.
Wait, Faithlife is trying to make a profit so they can try to purchase the gift of the Holy Spirit?
Hahaha I thought the same thing but you beat me to it.
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What happened to "We will always have the Logos engine available for free?"
Guess they can get around that by selling us "feature sets" instead o f the engine upgrade.
I agree with many others that this is a bit much. I don't want to rent software and I don't want to be continually robbed in order to have their latest program version. I think many of those blindly buying the new version should consider if this will really draw them closer to Christ or not.
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Greg Terry said:
What happened to "We will always have the Logos engine available for free?"
Guess they can get around that by selling us "feature sets" instead o f the engine upgrade.
I agree with many others that this is a bit much. I don't want to rent software and I don't want to be continually robbed in order to have their latest program version. I think many of those blindly buying the new version should consider if this will really draw them closer to Christ or not.
Wait? Faithlife is robbing you?
In my case I did my research and willingly reached for my wallet totally of my own accord. I can see where you would have a negative attitude if they robbed you.
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Greg Terry said:
What happened to "We will always have the Logos engine available for free?"
Greg, why do you think that's changed? The Logos engine is expected to be available for free in February, just as it has been after the last several major upgrades.
Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC
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Tony Thomas said:
Personally, I think it is a mistake to only offer an annual option. $90 is a big commitment for something that you don't get a chance to test out.
Tony, if I am not mistaken, you can cancel within 30 days for a free refund. Try it out for 29 days and if you don't like it, cancel. That is the closest thing to a "trial" you will get I'm afraid.
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Dwayne Justice said:Tony Thomas said:
Personally, I think it is a mistake to only offer an annual option. $90 is a big commitment for something that you don't get a chance to test out.
Tony, if I am not mistaken, you can cancel within 30 days for a free refund. Try it out for 29 days and if you don't like it, cancel. That is the closest thing to a "trial" you will get I'm afraid.
"free" refund?! LOL! I meant to say FULL refund. Sorry.
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Batman,
What am i missing here? Was there a reply to your first post that is no longer viewable? I'm interested to see whatever "argument" you are referring to.
Other than that, I would just like to throw my two cents in here (if it's even worth that). I think the value of Logos to each individual lies in how often and for what you use it for. I, for one, find it invaluable. I use it for school so the amount of research I can do in a VERY short amount of time makes Logos worth it to me. Is it overpriced? Most definitely! Do I pay the price anyway? yes. For two reasons: 1) I understand that what the Failthlife community does to tag the resources and do all of the research and development on top of still trying to make a profit, so I can almost understand the high prices (although I don't think they need to be quite so high). 2) I use Logos pretty much every day and know I would be lost without it when it comes to doing my homework. Also, I don't know what God's future plans are for me, but if I become a pastor or teacher or something close to those regards then Logos will have been a great past investment for future Kingdom work. On the integrity of Logos/FaithLife. Let us agree to disagree on that one. I believe Logos does have integrity. Marketing, communication, and information management are weak areas for the company, but I don't think it is a lack of integrity. I have never had any issues with them except for what I will talk about in a minute, but have always had great customer service from the company, especially from my sales rep, Todd.
My two issues with Logos, right now, are 1) the whole base package/library/full feature set lingo fiasco they have going on right now, and 2) Their constant diatribe about how Logos Now is super worth the money. Don't get me wrong, LN is great and has some awesome features (my favorite of which will be the webapp once they get it working as fully as the desktop version of Logos) that are worth the $100/year IF, and only IF you don't mind 1) not owning what you are paying for, and 2) the potential of losing access to Logos features. If you ever get into a financial situation where you can't swing $100 at a time (granted, you should budget for the things you need/want and be putting aside $8.5/mo so that you aren't burdened by the $100 all at once thing) or something else happens that makes you stop your membership, or if Faithlife ever went out of business, or any number of any other reasons; your membership ends and you are stuck nothing, or at the very least, if you previously owned a version of Logos you will have those set of features (e.g. if you own Logos 4, became a LN member, stopped being a member, you would revert back to Logos 4). Here's my issue with that. Say you are a member of LNf or 4 years. Assuming the price of LN doesn't go up (which it will probably increase every year) you will have spent $400 to "use" the program. The full feature set costs less than that for most people. As an example, the full feature set would cost me $112. So, 4 years into LN I have already paid triple what the full feature set would cost, but I would OWN the features instead of renting them. However, there are some features that are only available through LN which is the only reason I will keep LN but still buy Logos 7 full feature set so that I OWN the features just in case something happens and I am no longer a LN member.
Another issue with LN is that, again assuming the price doesn't go up, you pay your $100/yr for 4 years. You are now $400 in. FaithLife comes out with a newer version of Logos. Let's assume that in 4 years' time they will be on Logos 9 (just as an example). You want to buy Logos 9. However, you skipped Logos 7 and Logos 8 because you are a LN member. Now, Logos 9 is going to cost you a sacrifice to Molech plus your first three grandchildren and you left are plus your right leg.
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Precisely.
But watch out. The Logos Groupies will descend upon you.
Btw, after those who do pay, they will probably have a free version of the Logos 7 engine for free. Now that I can't fault them for. They do need the revenue to provide the free. I get that.
I just dont get the rest. As my friend says, "They're milking everyone" and she also says that it seems like the whole deal is to brag about how big everyone's library is. I think she's right there too. I have more books in my small tiny library than a normal person could EVER use. 1660 books is relatively small, isn't it? I wonder how much people REALLY use their library. I'll admit, mine is so big and so slow and so complicated, I've pretty much given up. I keep hoping for the best, but, I never see progress. There is such a thing as overload. And while it sounds wonderful, it's really just upgrade after upgrade after upgrade. and they're using the Bible to promote "us suckers".
And to those who disagree, fine. But there's very little that will change my mind. This is just plain and simple, ridiculous.Greg Terry said:What happened to "We will always have the Logos engine available for free?"
Guess they can get around that by selling us "feature sets" instead o f the engine upgrade.
I agree with many others that this is a bit much. I don't want to rent software and I don't want to be continually robbed in order to have their latest program version. I think many of those blindly buying the new version should consider if this will really draw them closer to Christ or not.
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Batman said:
This is just plain and simple, ridiculous.
It may be for you; for me it is still so far behind the promise of computer assisted text study ... let every person purchase what they personally need.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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The free version is simply the engine it doesn't provide any of the tools that you get from purchasing a package or logos now. So anyone who likes Logos is a logos groupie? Does that make you a Logos hater? No one is forcing anyone to buy anything, you can keep what you have so what's the big deal? Not sure why anyone would get mad about a company who provides a product charging whatever they want to charge. If you don't like the prices or options then go to another product, since that is what makes competition great. The only people who complain are liberals who think someone owes them something just for the fact that the exist.
Faithlife is producing a great product but it doesn't mean it's for everyone. Yes they produce biblical tools but at the same time they are a software company and the idea of being a software company is to innovate and make money so that they can continue to innovated. That is the reality of the world we live in and there isn't anything we can do about it. Go look at the free bible study options and you will see the difference between free software and paid software. And then tell me who is truly innovating.
Batman said:Precisely.
But watch out. The Logos Groupies will descend upon you.
Btw, after those who do pay, they will probably have a free version of the Logos 7 engine for free. Now that I can't fault them for. They do need the revenue to provide the free. I get that.
I just dont get the rest. As my friend says, "They're milking everyone" and she also says that it seems like the whole deal is to brag about how big everyone's library is. I think she's right there too. I have more books in my small tiny library than a normal person could EVER use. 1660 books is relatively small, isn't it? I wonder how much people REALLY use their library. I'll admit, mine is so big and so slow and so complicated, I've pretty much given up. I keep hoping for the best, but, I never see progress. There is such a thing as overload. And while it sounds wonderful, it's really just upgrade after upgrade after upgrade. and they're using the Bible to promote "us suckers".
And to those who disagree, fine. But there's very little that will change my mind. This is just plain and simple, ridiculous.Greg Terry said:What happened to "We will always have the Logos engine available for free?"
Guess they can get around that by selling us "feature sets" instead o f the engine upgrade.
I agree with many others that this is a bit much. I don't want to rent software and I don't want to be continually robbed in order to have their latest program version. I think many of those blindly buying the new version should consider if this will really draw them closer to Christ or not.
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Hello
First, I'm not sure what happened. But, my first response was to let the original poster (OP) know they were not alone.
I went on a bit of a rant, for pretty much the reasons you described.
As far as Logos value, I don't dispute that. I am, however, bothered by several things. Morris Procter and his company has stated that 90% of Logos users only take advantage of 10% of what Logos has to offer.
At any establishment I am aware of, 10% is a huge failure!
Now, to Logos/Faithlife's credit, they are beginning to offer more free in depth training videos. The 30 day course is a great example. It actually takes me longer, but, that's beside the point.
The negative, however, is, if it's so complicated they have to sell courses for $450 (for both DVDs) there's a HUGE problem. And the fact that 90% of users use 10% of it's capabilities proves it.
The argument everyone makes "You don't have to buy anything you don't want to" is a great big "No Duh!" to me. The point isn't whether we do or don't, it's that Logos is milking us for everything they can, and whether the groupies realize it or not, we're all being suckered. The point is not whether they are here to make money or not. They ARE a business and even as a Christian organization, they HAVE to make a profit to a) stay in business and b) as you point out indirectly, stay in business. I get all that. I just don't get having to upgrade four times in eight years! By "having to", I don't mean we are required to, I mean, Logos even upgrading that often. Most of what they are offering is public domain stuff (free to them) which costs them to transfer it to digital form. And, if everyone (Logos, the groupies and everyone) were honest, they'd admit there was no REAL purpose in going from 4 to 6.
Sure, I might be upset that I was told a more deceptive statement regarding future editions when I purchased L-3. Upon asking specifically about Logos 4, I was told there was no plans and other statements to that sort. Of course a few months later, here comes the next version, and shortly thereafter here comes 5, and 6 and now 7. So right off the bat, I've got some huge gripes against Logos. I went with L4, but didnt like it, and got the refund. Then, here comes L-5 and L-3 support is ending. So, in comes L-5. I THINK i get everything. Oh No! I need to pay for something from L-4 to get all L-5 has to offer. But, is it over? No. I have to then buy a crossgrade? And some other nonsense? So, then L-6 comes out in what seems like a few days. There was what I thought was a great deal, but shame on me for falling for the marketing gibberish. What turns out to be a great deal is "dynamic pricing" except, they cleverly call it 65% off. So, this great big deal is nothing more than a deduction for what I already purchased. NOT the 65% off sale it looked like.
So let's say I skip 7, 8, 9 all the way through L-20 which by my calculations should be out in 3 years (ok, that's bad) I'll have to pay for ALL the missed upgrades without any of the resources? Oh no! Not in my world.
So somewhere in all that you will see some of what I said that may be missing, and other stuff I have not said. But, in the end, there is something seriously wrong with this company, and regardless what anyone says, it's how I feel.
Is there good? Absolutely! Does Bob do what he can to try to make things right? I think he does. And, in all honesty, I would NOT want to be in his position. For if he does a great job and does it with integrity and his main goal is honorable and God-pleasing, there will ALWAYS be people who will complain and make his life miserable. Which, believe it or not, is not my goal. Granted, I may be succeeding at it more than anything, it is not my intent or goal. And if he does have bad intentions or to be more respectful, let's say, less than altruistic intentions, and it is purely monetary (above and beyond making a profit) he has more than those of us who are griping to deal with. In such a manner, he receives double judgement. A position I do NOT envy.
I do see value in this software (otherwise I wouldn't keep pumping more and more money into it, HOPING for the best) but, I do see some very wrong things happening. And that is what I am bothered by.
I thank you for your response. It was a very good one.0 -
Batman said:
Morris Procter and his company has stated that 90% of Logos users only take advantage of 10% of what Logos has to offer.
At any establishment I am aware of, 10% is a huge failure!Hmmmm ... I know I use less than 10% of MsOffice capabilities ... but I am dependent on that 10% and can list functions I'd like to be able to do but can't. I consider that to be a reflection of my needs not of Microsoft's success.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I probably am a "Logos hater"; or very close to it.
As I quoted in a previous response, 90% of Logos users utilize 10% of what Logos has to offer. That's about as poor a grade a company can get. And, that comes from Morris Proctor, "official Logos trainer". Or, maybe it came from Logos itself. Either way, it's not good.
As far as everything else you say, I have already responded to it, and there's no point in going further. You're a groupie and I am probably a hater. And we both have good reasons for why we stand where we do.0 -
Batman said:
When does it stop? It's never ending.
You're talking about operating system upgrades, right? Or server patches? Or mobile phones?
[:)]
Yes, it's never ending. Welcome to the technology treadmill.
It keeps changing -- for you and for us. We are going to try to keep earning more of your money. (Earning. Earning.) Because even if you never buy anything else, you're going to expect your data to sync, your purchases to easily migrate to your new machine, your app to run on the next version of Windows or OS X or your phone, your cloud-backed databases to stay available, your information not to be deleted or stolen because we failed to maintain or patch a server, or upgrade its hard drives, etc. And that costs a (surprising) amount of money to maintain -- just to keep servicing a one-time purchase.
That's why everything is moving to subscriptions. It's not just us -- it is the whole tech world.
And no, I don't think it's sustainable. People can only take so many subscriptions. So, while we're presently de-bundling the world so that you can subscribe to more and more stand-alone services each week, I think we're just running in a circle which will lead back to bundling.
(People were angry about $100/month cable bills, and wanted un-bundled TV. We're kind-of getting it: Netflix, Hulu, HBO, Showtime, Dove, PureFlix, etc. are all separately subscribable. But add these up, and a few more to come, and you'll be back a $100/month for entertainment -- right where you started. So people like Amazon will bundle your newspaper / magazines / music / video / free shipping / free bagels / etc. all together, to try to win a bigger fee from you for a value bundle. And they'll hope that the deal will attract enough volume to make it work. And... we're back.)
Our secret plan for world domination (shouldn't all gospel-focused organizations be for world domination?) is to be one of those bigger bundlers: delivering huge value at a reasonable price so we can win massive market share and make it all pencil out.
Logos Now is a great deal, and our plan is to keep making it a better and better deal. At around $100/year it's less than most Logos users spend with us each year on average (we've got decades of data to analyze) and we deliver more for that value than we ever did before.
I know we have "I like to own"ers among us, and we plan to continue to support you. :-) But we are going to try to continue and earn upgrades and book sales from you, because that's really how we subsidize continuing to support you. (There are other software companies resisting the move to subscription sales, but they're solving this 'tech support treadmill' costs problem with maintenance fees. It's not all unusual for me to see a product offered to us for a one-time sale -- with a 25-50% of initial sale annual maintenance fee. Yes, we can choose to not renew the maintenance, but then we don't get upgrades, bug fixes, or any online service. So maybe that's a plan? Though I'm pretty sure the maintenance fee would be, um, just about the same price as Logos Now.... [:D] )
Some days I miss the 'buy it, own it, don't call us, we won't call you' days of anonymously buying a piece of software in a retail store. But then I remember being annoyed by a bug or missing feature, and needing to purchase an annual upgrade to get an update. And I remember the hassle of moving to a new computer. And how I could only access my data on the one machine I'd installed the software on, which sometimes was at work when I was at home, or vice versa. I resisted subscriptions myself for a while... but now I'm coming to really appreciate the value.
I hope you will too, and I can promise we'll do our best to make sure that every year it's a better deal than the year before.
-- Bob
Side Story:
This very night I went to re-purchase an album I'd bought on CD back in college. I have it, I own it, and I have dutifully (myself!) migrated it through several tech platforms over 20 years, ending up with an MP3 that I'm pretty sure is on the SD card I put into the car stereo two years ago when I bought it, but I wanted to call it up on my phone, so I almost splurged and re-bought the track via my iPhone.
But then I checked and it was on a streaming music service I subscribe to, and I called it up in seconds without needing to navigate that SD card with the car's awkward interface...
A win for the subscription product and the consumer!
But an interesting (and not financially good) story about the music industry... which used to get 6-10 CD sales from me each year at $15.95 each (I'm not that big a music guy), and which now doesn't even get $10/month, because my streaming music service is Amazon Prime, which I got primarily for free shipping but which bundles in a bunch of music, video, etc... all for around $99/year. The music can't be earning much.
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Batman said:
You're a groupie and I am probably a hater.
My interest is more in the factual basis and the precision of the logic than whether you love/hate Logos.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Batman said:
As I quoted in a previous response, 90% of Logos users utilize 10% of what Logos has to offer. That's about as poor a grade a company can get. And, that comes from Morris Proctor, "official Logos trainer". Or, maybe it came from Logos itself. Either way, it's not good
I use less than 10% of what Microsoft Outlook does, and I use it all day every day.
When I open Adobe InDesign I use less than 5%.
I use less than 2% of Excel. Or maybe less than 1%.
It's possible that I do use 50% of Instagram's power, but I'm not sure. But I _think_ there's just those five buttons, and I've clicked them all at least once.
I hear a lot of users say they use less than 10% of Logos. Some say it almost apologetically, like they've let themselves, or their church, or even me(!) down. Some say it resentfully, like they were somehow cheated of 90% of their investment.
But it's not unusual or anything to feel bad about: Logos is a big, toolbox full of things you use every day (hammers and screwdrivers) as well as some exotic tools you use rarely but which are the perfect thing when you need them (glass cutter, reciprocating saw, shingle froe, etc.).
A big toolbox isn't a waste if you don't use every tool in it. What's a waste (of time or energy) is trying to use a hammer and screwdriver for every job, even if they're a lot cheaper than the big toolbox.
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Bob Pritchett said:
[I know we have "I like to own"ers among us, and we plan to continue to support you. :-) But we are going to try to continue and earn upgrades and book sales from you, because that's really how we subsidize continuing to support you. (There are other software companies resisting the move to subscription sales, but they're solving this 'tech support treadmill' costs problem with maintenance fees. It's not all unusual for me to see a product offered to us for a one-time sale -- with a 25-50% of initial sale annual maintenance fee. Yes, we can choose to not renew the maintenance, but then we don't get upgrades, bug fixes, or any online service. So maybe that's a plan? Though I'm pretty sure the maintenance fee would be, um, just about the same price as Logos Now....
)Bob, I appreciate all you do in this regard. One of the pain points I keep hearing (and I'm sure you do too) is the issue of "IF I stop Logos Now, I'll revert to Logos 4 or 5 or 6 (based on when I started)." Are there future plans to mitigate those concerns by introducing something like a rent-to-own aspect of Logos Now's non-server-based functions?
💻 M2 MacBook Air (13-inch 2022) | 24GB RAM | Apple M2 GPU 10 Core + Metal | 2TB SSD💻
💾 MacOS Sequoia 💾
🎁Logos 10 Gold 🎁 Logos 10 Reformed Platinum🎁
⌨ Logos Max ⌨0 -
Andrew Zoll said:
Bob, I appreciate all you do in this regard. One of the pain points I keep hearing (and I'm sure you do too) is the issue of "IF I stop Logos Now, I'll revert to Logos 4 or 5 or 6 (based on when I started)." Are there future plans to mitigate those concerns by introducing something like a rent-to-own aspect of Logos Now's non-server-based functions?
I would also like to know. I keep on hammering the idea that if Logos would allow us to keep "datasets and features" after a certain period of subscription, I would jump at the chance. I have made multiple comments regarding this, and even send Bob an email, but so far not a single person responded to this question or referred me to a previous discussion. Will Logos really "lose" money if they allow me to keep features after two years of subscription?
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^^^^^What those two people said! This is my main concern with LN.
p;21.5" iMac; 2.7GHZ; 1TB HD🖥💻 15" Macbook Pro Retina; 2.5GHZ i7; 16 GB; 500GB FSD💻
🎁Logos 6 Diamond; Logos 6 Anglican Diamond; Logos 6 Pentecostal & Charismatic Gold🎁
🌐Logos Now🌐
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i upgraded- think i got 2 whole features for 200.00- niether of which will i ever use.
good grief!!
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Like I say, I never want to be in your position. It's pretty much a lose/lose proposition. Especially the product you are selling.
I have never and never will say it's a bad product. I can't help but to see you running this company more to milk us than anything. It's a judgement, one I hope is skewed badly. As much as I try, I can't help but going back to this same spot.
I've said this several times. Logos is an extremely complicated system. I get it; it does extremely complicated stuff. Probably much more than I ever needed. I thought at one time I did need all this. So, when I see "all the resources", to me it's way overload, and is not impressive. So, when I see 4 upgrades in 8 or 9 years, I pretty much go on a rant. And, I feel for good reason. Knowing that L5 or 6 was being worked on before 4 was even out is beyond ridiculous to me. It makes me feel as if right now you are working on Logos 20 (yes, I am exaggerating; so maybe 10 or 11). This is a huge issue with me. (You can see a reply above that explains in more detail why I'm a Logos "hater". Not really, but at times, I probably could be).
I think for me, had you guys tabled L7 and just went with LN, I would still have my frustrations, but, not to this degree-- those are frustrations that are all my own, frustrations that have me less than motivated to even try to spend time trying to utilize the free video training. LN was just recently rolled out, I did the free trial, and while good, definitely blows me out of the water. But a few months later, here comes L7, and as stated above, I am pretty certain you are already working on 9 or possibly 10. Certainly you can see how some or many of us see this as milking it for all it's worth. Everywhere I turn, I see ads, in my Bible program (I am aware that I can turn them off) in email and on the website. So that does not help my view towards the company.
Right now, at this moment, I have a very low opinion of Logos/Faithlife or whatever name it's going by this month (my own private joke). This entire thread is filled with them. I also gave a few positives, but, at this moment, very few. So I will offer some of the positives I have experienced and make me like Logos (sorry, but I may never love Logos-- even though, despite my rants, I really want to).
Top notch Customer Service. Yes, there are those times when I get a person who must be new, because they are not very knowledgeable. But, by and far, they are more helpful than any company I have dealt with, with exception of Amazon and Costco. But, I would rate Logos CS right there in the middle of the pack at the top. One of your reps went way beyond the call of duty to figure out why it would not load. The upgrade to Win 8 from 7 solved it; but she was fantastic at looking into several issues. So, yes, Logos CS is right there with Costco and Amazon. Who's the best? I have no idea, but all 3 are above excellent.
A great program. Much more than I ever expected, overall, it is a great program. I don't like the search function, because it's so much quicker and easier to get a simple search in a search engine than my Bible program. (Maybe something that can be worked on, I can hope). But, if I want to do a topical search, it's pretty overwhelming, which hopefully is a good thing. For most, it is.
Freebies. Free book of the month, $2 add-a-book, and many of the freebies off the other companies. Most are pretty cool freebies.
CP. What a great way to get something published at "no cost" to Logos, and a great price for us. I say no cost to Logos, because it is our bids that cover the cost of publication; but, that takes nothing away from it's creative marketing and ability to get products that otherwise might not get published.
You. While I have some huge complaints about how you run the company, the fact you take time to respond, and usually you make a great case for why you do what you do, does mean a lot.
And yes, I do get the whole "subscription" thing. As stated earlier, had it been a couple more years for L-7, I might not be so upset. I realize the "groupies" as I have dubbed them, may be happy if L-8 came out by Christmas, and L-9 by Easter, and L-10 by Mother's Day, that's just ridiculous. I've said it of MS, so I'll definitely say it of Logos, 3 years is just way too soon to do a full upgrade. Windows 95 to 98 was far too soon. Then they made the mistake of Windows ME, which you may or may not have known was so bad even MS tech support hated it. (They actually got locked out of their systems. lol). But, what many called the best OS ever, XP, lasted about 6 or 7 years. Gave the industry time to adapt, and us time to get into it. Had they left Vista on the market that long, we'd have all adapted to it. I hope you see my point.
With LN, if I could find my way to making use of it, I would probably go that route. But don't then turn around and ask me to upgrade to L-7, after I just upgraded a couple years ago (well, I waited, I do believe, but, even from the beginning, it's too soon). All this push push push is just a huge turn-off. At least to me; and apparently others.
So while I am best described as a "hater" as one put it, and I feel for good reason, I do appreciate your response. And I really do "get it". I just don't understand everything. (I understand the cost is great to keep Logos going) but, I don't understand the massive "push push push" at an almost nonstop pace. So in all sincerity, Thank you for taking the time to address my issues.
TimBob Pritchett said:Batman said:When does it stop? It's never ending.
You're talking about operating system upgrades, right? Or server patches? Or mobile phones?
Yes, it's never ending. Welcome to the technology treadmill.
It keeps changing -- for you and for us. We are going to try to keep earning more of your money. (Earning. Earning.) Because even if you never buy anything else, you're going to expect your data to sync, your purchases to easily migrate to your new machine, your app to run on the next version of Windows or OS X or your phone, your cloud-backed databases to stay available, your information not to be deleted or stolen because we failed to maintain or patch a server, or upgrade its hard drives, etc. And that costs a (surprising) amount of money to maintain -- just to keep servicing a one-time purchase.
That's why everything is moving to subscriptions. It's not just us -- it is the whole tech world.
And no, I don't think it's sustainable. People can only take so many subscriptions. So, while we're presently de-bundling the world so that you can subscribe to more and more stand-alone services each week, I think we're just running in a circle which will lead back to bundling.
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