Over $300 for L7 Features? Really?
Comments
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Some of the comments here really seam to be from some alternate universe.
Someone compared the price of Logos to Evernote. Evernote is a simple note taking app. The two are not even remotely comparable when it comes to development cost. Also, apps like Evernote, Pandora etc. appeal to huge segments of people. Logos will always have a relatively small user base.
Again people, this is easy. If you don't see the value in an upgrade by all means don't buy it!
It does not make Logos a bad company because they gave us more options.
regarding the cost of Logos Now. I don't think it is sustainable. If I look at other complex software that is on the market such as CRM software, I think Logos now will eventually need to be priced at 30-50 per month. This last statement is of course just my speculation. I don't pretend to have inside knowledge.
Now if you will excuse me, I need to go buy a new washing machine. I bought one last year but the terrible company went and stabbed me in the back by selling a new model. What can I do? I am a victim. (sarcasm)
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Andrew Zoll said:
Bob, I appreciate all you do in this regard. One of the pain points I keep hearing (and I'm sure you do too) is the issue of "IF I stop Logos Now, I'll revert to Logos 4 or 5 or 6 (based on when I started)." Are there future plans to mitigate those concerns by introducing something like a rent-to-own aspect of Logos Now's non-server-based functions?
We'll keep discussing this... one of the problems is that much of what's in Logos Now (and even more of what's coming) requires server access / huge data storage. If we move to a 'rent to own' model, that doesn't solve our maintenance / support / server costs problem. In fact, it's worse in many ways: instead of Option A (I get your money now) vs Option B (I get your money slowly over time, but it keeps coming in sync with my expenses) that creates a terrible Option C (I get your money slowly, then it stops, but my expenses continue).
I'm sure there's a middle ground where the math works, based on stats of average revenue, lifetime of customer use of servers, etc. Or we could only generate 'ownership' of the offline features... but it's hard to guess and dangerous to guess wrong -- and even owners seem to want core engine upgrades, support for new OS releases, etc. -- forever. (And at already 25 years old -- a pretty old software company! -- with many customers who've been with us 10+ years, it's not hard to see even basic maintenance / support being a significant 'forever' cost.)
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Shannon Martin said:
regarding the cost of Logos Now. I don't think it is sustainable. If I look at other complex software that is on the market such as CRM software, I think Logos now will eventually need to be priced at 30-50 per month. This last statement is of course just my speculation. I don't pretend to have inside knowledge.
Maybe my use case is different, but I prefer the ownership model and expect to buy the features. I only subscribed to LN to get access to upcoming features in advance of Logos 7/8.
A reasonable $90 or $100 per year for early access to new features is worth it, but if the annual price exceeds the dynamic cost of the feature set, I expect it would drive people back to upgrading their feature set every year instead of "renting" the features.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Bob Pritchett said:Andrew Zoll said:
Bob, I appreciate all you do in this regard. One of the pain points I keep hearing (and I'm sure you do too) is the issue of "IF I stop Logos Now, I'll revert to Logos 4 or 5 or 6 (based on when I started)." Are there future plans to mitigate those concerns by introducing something like a rent-to-own aspect of Logos Now's non-server-based functions?
We'll keep discussing this... one of the problems is that much of what's in Logos Now (and even more of what's coming) requires server access / huge data storage. If we move to a 'rent to own' model, that doesn't solve our maintenance / support / server costs problem. In fact, it's worse in many ways: instead of Option A (I get your money now) vs Option B (I get your money slowly over time, but it keeps coming in sync with my expenses) that creates a terrible Option C (I get your money slowly, then it stops, but my expenses continue).
I'm sure there's a middle ground where the math works, based on stats of average revenue, lifetime of customer use of servers, etc. Or we could only generate 'ownership' of the offline features... but it's hard to guess and dangerous to guess wrong -- and even owners seem to want core engine upgrades, support for new OS releases, etc. -- forever. (And at already 25 years old -- a pretty old software company! -- with many customers who've been with us 10+ years, it's not hard to see even basic maintenance / support being a significant 'forever' cost.)
I can respect that- and I can see a large contingent of people who have this same pain point being satisfied by a rent-to-own nature of offline-only features. Maybe this wouldn't satisfy everyone, but it would be a move of undeniable logic [i.e. these tools you've paid for for two years; therefore, you now own them because the costs of maintaining them are essentially (though probably not exactly) zero. These other tools however run on our servers, and therefore to maintain access, you must pay monthly/annually to help with server upkeep, etc.]. It would be a move that is hard to argue with after a period of two years (I think two years is an acceptable amount of time- you'll have to help me understand if the math works out).
Personally, I get so much benefit from Logos Now, that I don't see myself ever cancelling; however, this is one of those mind-gnawing concerns that won't go away. I am invested in the profitability of your company. You've provided excellent tools that keep getting better over time and I'm happy to pay my fair share. And I want to see you thrive for another 25 years.
With regard for forever costs of support, etc., perhaps it is something that needs to be sold as a service, rather than packaged in with everything else (just like I don't mind paying Apple $3.99/mo. for the privilege of being able to store/sync 200 GB of data on their servers). I personally don't think it's terribly fair for a company to be expected to give something for free for life (but I'm a strict capitalist). So maybe have a feature with sync for $3/mo., Logos Now for $8/mo., and Logos Now w/ Sync for $10/mo.? Is that sustainable? You'll have to run the numbers, but again I (and I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks this way) have every interest in seeing you guys succeed. Surely there's a way to communicate this sort of important-to-keep-in-mind stuff to a broad swath of customers...
Anyway, thank you for replying! I've been impressed with all the talent that you have surrounded yourself with and with whom I have interacted. Your people make a great company, especially Wyatt Shedd-Stewart, Phil Gons, and Mark Ward (just a few who've been indispensable to my relationship with FL).
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Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:
I'm still surprised by how many people are willing to be "renters" here .
Most of you likely buy your home, buy your car, buy your lawnmower, yet rent software- thats just strange to me.
I can rent the software for years and if i don't want to pay rent anymore- i have absolutely nothing to show for my money- strange to me.
to each his own I guess and , I understand renting when its needed, just not as a way of life.If you are happy with plunking down $200.00 for something you now own but "literally have no idea if its the right upgrade for [you], a good deal or bad deal", then I'm persuaded that "renters" can learn to be happy with their decision to rent. At least the majority of those who post about their decision to go the LN route confirm it's a good deal for them. For my part, I'd rather rent a good-to-me deal than buy a "djab an sak". (*)
Own or rent, we should be happy to have options, which I think is the best part of L7. We (even!) have the option to forego both renting or buying past what we've already bought and just wait for the free engine in February. Nobody's forcing anyone into anything, and there's no need to denigrate other people's choices if they are different from ours.
(* 'djab en sak' is Kwéyòl (French creole) and a straight translation would be a 'devil in a bag'; I guess the equivalent to Americans would be a pig in a poke?)
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Just a point missed here. I am aware of that. However, some have said they would prefer a monthly subscription, while I myself would like to see Logos do both monthly and annual. But, it is something that is understandable. Billing is already a pain; which is why companies offer incentives to pay annually. And for me, should I choose to go Now, I'd go annually. Just because monthly is a pain for me, as well. But, since we have til Dec., I may just go ahead and see if I like it enough to go Now. If not, I can cancel, and not worry. Unless that is no longer an option. Then I may just wait and see if I feel like it's worth it.
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A sensible response! Very sensible.
Yasmin Stephen said:Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:I'm still surprised by how many people are willing to be "renters" here .
Most of you likely buy your home, buy your car, buy your lawnmower, yet rent software- thats just strange to me.
I can rent the software for years and if i don't want to pay rent anymore- i have absolutely nothing to show for my money- strange to me.
to each his own I guess and , I understand renting when its needed, just not as a way of life.If you are happy with plunking down $200.00 for something you now own but "literally have no idea if its the right upgrade for [you], a good deal or bad deal", then I'm persuaded that "renters" can learn to be happy with their decision to rent. At least the majority of those who post about their decision to go the LN route confirm it's a good deal for them. For my part, I'd rather rent a good-to-me deal than buy a "djab an sak". (*)
Own or rent, we should be happy to have options, which I think is the best part of L7. We (even!) have the option to forego both renting or buying past what we've already bought and just wait for the free engine in February. Nobody's forcing anyone into anything, and there's no need to denigrate other people's choices if they are different from ours.
(* 'djab en sak' is Kwéyòl (French creole) and a straight translation would be a 'devil in a bag'; I guess the equivalent to Americans would be a pig in a poke?)
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I note your sarcasm. It's even almost funny. But again, you are comparing apples and oranges. Yes, they are fruit, but, that's about it.
For me, it isn't (totally) cost. There are several complaints, and as you said, I apply myself, "I do not pretend to have an inside knowledge". Yes, I think it's ridiculous to upgrade every two years (on average, since 2009). No, nobody is "forced" to upgrade. A nice thing Logos does do is offer the "shell" or the engine for free, so we can continue to access our library, from 300 years ago. It's also great that Logos is ready with compatibility issues for the most part worked out every time Windows gets updated. For that part of things, Logos is well worth money spent. But, the dark side is the constant upgrading. While we don't "have to", it never feels like it, with the super-hyper-aggressive marketing and advertising. And, eventually, when you do want to upgrade, i think it becomes mandatory to upgrade the missed paid upgrades, but, without the resources. At least that's how it worked when I upgraded. That gives the company the appearance of milking it's customers, and of greed. THAT is what I would like to see changed. Having Bob come out every so often and while he will NEVER get EVERYONE on board, by doing so, he makes sense and he attempts to appease those of us who get easily bothered and even angered by the marketing, advertising, and constant upgrading. But, no, I will never be happy when I do finally make the decision to upgrade and then BAM get hit with another update. And with Logos, if you put it off a year, then in less than a year, BAM hits you again. Even having no intentions of upgrading is annoying. Its like a huge slap in my face.
So, for me, the subscription option will be a "forced" payment (unless I remember to cancel) but, I'm always current (IF I understand things correctly) and it costs me less. Or, as Bob says, he gets paid slowly rather than upfront. And, yes, i think it's sustainable. Although not quite the same, Amazon Prime and Office offer similar pricing. On a monthly scale Hulu, and Netflix are about the same for their subscription services. And, at $100 to $120 annually, I don't consider Logos as being "greedy". (Whether they are or are not, to ME, no. Some will ALWAYS complain, even if it's free. So again, while I may very well be Bob's biggest critic, at the same time, I don't envy him, and while being critical, I try hard not to cross the line of judging him, for I cannot possibly know his real motivations. Only appearances).Shannon Martin said:Some of the comments here really seam to be from some alternate universe.
Someone compared the price of Logos to Evernote. Evernote is a simple note taking app. The two are not even remotely comparable when it comes to development cost. Also, apps like Evernote, Pandora etc. appeal to huge segments of people. Logos will always have a relatively small user base.
Again people, this is easy. If you don't see the value in an upgrade by all means don't buy it!
It does not make Logos a bad company because they gave us more options.
regarding the cost of Logos Now. I don't think it is sustainable. If I look at other complex software that is on the market such as CRM software, I think Logos now will eventually need to be priced at 30-50 per month. This last statement is of course just my speculation. I don't pretend to have inside knowledge.
Now if you will excuse me, I need to go buy a new washing machine. I bought one last year but the terrible company went and stabbed me in the back by selling a new model. What can I do? I am a victim. (sarcasm)
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Batman said:
While we don't "have to", it never feels like it, with the super-hyper-aggressive marketing and advertising.
If you don't get on (or do get off) the email lists, don't visit the website or forums, and disable the parts of your Homepage that double as ads, you could be entirely oblivious to the eventual release of the Logos 8 until the free version happens to be or be in the next automatic update a few months after it comes out.
That said, the marketing can be a bit intense if we pay attention to all of it...but we can dial it back. Effectively, even.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Apparently that is not true either.
- Logos 8 early release features
Don’t wait for the next major Logos release—start using Logos 8 features in your Bible study today. And when we release Logos 8, you’ll be automatically updated.
I do tend to exaggerate. However, in this case I was not. While I did omit version 8, clearly you guys ARE in fact working beyond just 7.1, 7.2, and 7.3 and what is more clear to me is that Logos HAS been working on L-8; and this reiterates my certainty that Logos probably is working on 9 and maybe even 10.
While you may have thought you were helping the cause, you failed to acknowledge Logos IS and HAS been working on 8. That leaves Logos with a bad taste on the credibility issue-- even if that was not your intent, Sorry, but, those are the things that just add fuel to this fire for me.Batman said:But a few months later, here comes L7, and as stated above, I am pretty certain you are already working on 9 or possibly 10.
We are not. We are currently working on 7.1, 7.2, 7.3 and discussing what will be in those releases for Logos Now subscribers.
0 - Logos 8 early release features
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good points.
Can you use your "renters version and tools " offline?0 -
Batman said:
Apparently that is not true either.
- Logos 8 early release features
Don’t wait for the next major Logos release—start using Logos 8 features in your Bible study today. And when we release Logos 8, you’ll be automatically updated.
What Bradley states below is correct with what you quoted. In essence 7.1 and beyond all are working toward 8.
Batman said:Batman said:But a few months later, here comes L7, and as stated above, I am pretty certain you are already working on 9 or possibly 10.
We are not. We are currently working on 7.1, 7.2, 7.3 and discussing what will be in those releases for Logos Now subscribers.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
0 - Logos 8 early release features
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To clarify/expand on what Bruce said, some of the features available only to Now subscribers in Logos 7.1, 7.2, 7.3, etc. will be in Feature Sets (or their equivalent) for purchase in Logos 8. In this way, it is true both that Bradley et al. are working on Logos 7.1, etc., and not on L9 and L10, and that Logos Now users will get early access to L8 features. Exactly the same thing happened with Logos Now and L7.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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I wish I could find the same picture with the horse a skeleton and the man with a long beard.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Shannon Martin said:
Some of the comments here really seam to be from some alternate universe.
Someone compared the price of Logos to Evernote. Evernote is a simple note taking app. The two are not even remotely comparable when it comes to development cost. Also, apps like Evernote, Pandora etc. appeal to huge segments of people. Logos will always have a relatively small user base.
Evernote is more than a "simple note taking app". It is a pretty complex database that is supported on multiple platforms just like Logos (Windows, Mac, Android, iOS). It received continuous upgrades on all platforms and there is I/O and storage going on 24/7 all over the world. While it reportedly has something like 100,000,000+ registered users, I believe that only a small percentage (probably less than 2%) are paying users.
In the case of Logos, the reason resources cost so much is to help support application development and overhead and generate a profit.
Of course they have to pay for ongoing server and storage costs because of the way they designed their application and its constant reliance on the Internet (though you can also use it offline and lose some features). Most of their competitors don't have this problem because the resources download to your computer and the program operates offline. So, the subscription model is almost inevitable for Logos if you depend on its online functionality (and most users do). It is just a matter of what you are willing to pay.
As I said previously, I would prefer that Logos do away with its "always free engine" model and charge a reasonable fee of $40-60 for major upgrades (with a decent list features) that is paid by all users. That would allow all users to get more features for less money because the development/support costs would be spread across a much larger percentage of the user base.
Director of Zoeproject
www.zoeproject.com
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Bob Pritchett said:
We'll keep discussing this... one of the problems is that much of what's in Logos Now (and even more of what's coming) requires server access / huge data storage. If we move to a 'rent to own' model, that doesn't solve our maintenance / support / server costs problem. In fact, it's worse in many ways: instead of Option A (I get your money now) vs Option B (I get your money slowly over time, but it keeps coming in sync with my expenses) that creates a terrible Option C (I get your money slowly, then it stops, but my expenses continue).
I'm sure there's a middle ground where the math works, based on stats of average revenue, lifetime of customer use of servers, etc. Or we could only generate 'ownership' of the offline features... but it's hard to guess and dangerous to guess wrong -- and even owners seem to want core engine upgrades, support for new OS releases, etc. -- forever. (And at already 25 years old -- a pretty old software company! -- with many customers who've been with us 10+ years, it's not hard to see even basic maintenance / support being a significant 'forever' cost.)
As I have said elsewhere, the solution is to do away with the "always free upgrades" policy and perhaps limit those who don't want to pay to offline use only. Charge $40-60 every two years for major upgrades and create different subscription levels with monthly options at a higher price. That solves the "forever costs" problem and would simplify things dramatically.
Director of Zoeproject
www.zoeproject.com
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Tony Thomas said:Bob Pritchett said:
We'll keep discussing this... one of the problems is that much of what's in Logos Now (and even more of what's coming) requires server access / huge data storage. If we move to a 'rent to own' model, that doesn't solve our maintenance / support / server costs problem. In fact, it's worse in many ways: instead of Option A (I get your money now) vs Option B (I get your money slowly over time, but it keeps coming in sync with my expenses) that creates a terrible Option C (I get your money slowly, then it stops, but my expenses continue).
I'm sure there's a middle ground where the math works, based on stats of average revenue, lifetime of customer use of servers, etc. Or we could only generate 'ownership' of the offline features... but it's hard to guess and dangerous to guess wrong -- and even owners seem to want core engine upgrades, support for new OS releases, etc. -- forever. (And at already 25 years old -- a pretty old software company! -- with many customers who've been with us 10+ years, it's not hard to see even basic maintenance / support being a significant 'forever' cost.)
As I have said elsewhere, the solution is to do away with the "always free upgrades" policy and perhaps limit those who don't want to pay to offline use only. Charge $40-60 every two years for major upgrades and create different subscription levels with monthly options at a higher price. That solves the "forever costs" problem and would simplify things dramatically.
If you don't provide a clear upgrade path for the core product, then you need to look at your support requirements for older versions. You can no longer simply say, "Upgrade free to the latest version and you will get the bug fix." You introduce problematic support issues and questions on customer abandonment at the end of version life cycles.
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Stephen Terlizzi said:
If you don't provide a clear upgrade path for the core product, then you need to look at your support requirements for older versions. You can no longer simply say, "Upgrade free to the latest version and you will get the bug fix." You introduce problematic support issues and questions on customer abandonment at the end of version life cycles.
While that is true, older versions cannot be supported indefinitely. And, it isn't practical to offer someone who bought an application back in Y2K full program updates, support and server access for 16 years without receiving any revenue.
Director of Zoeproject
www.zoeproject.com
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Bob Pritchett said:Andrew Zoll said:
Bob, I appreciate all you do in this regard. One of the pain points I keep hearing (and I'm sure you do too) is the issue of "IF I stop Logos Now, I'll revert to Logos 4 or 5 or 6 (based on when I started)." Are there future plans to mitigate those concerns by introducing something like a rent-to-own aspect of Logos Now's non-server-based functions?
We'll keep discussing this... one of the problems is that much of what's in Logos Now (and even more of what's coming) requires server access / huge data storage. If we move to a 'rent to own' model, that doesn't solve our maintenance / support / server costs problem. In fact, it's worse in many ways: instead of Option A (I get your money now) vs Option B (I get your money slowly over time, but it keeps coming in sync with my expenses) that creates a terrible Option C (I get your money slowly, then it stops, but my expenses continue).
I'm sure there's a middle ground where the math works, based on stats of average revenue, lifetime of customer use of servers, etc. Or we could only generate 'ownership' of the offline features... but it's hard to guess and dangerous to guess wrong -- and even owners seem to want core engine upgrades, support for new OS releases, etc. -- forever. (And at already 25 years old -- a pretty old software company! -- with many customers who've been with us 10+ years, it's not hard to see even basic maintenance / support being a significant 'forever' cost.)
Bob,
I'm just a blue-collar military grunt with no marketing or business background. However, I do have a tiny sliver of uncommon common sense. It would seem to me, that you could, and should, have the best of both worlds here. When those of us suggest a "rent to own" model we (well, let me use "I" here because I don't know if I can speak for everyone) mean that we would still keep paying the monthly fee (preferably at a reduced rate once the "offline features" are "paid for") but we would also own the offline features after we have paid (let's make it fair and have a flat rate for everyone and forget dynamic pricing for this one thing) $200 or $300. In essence you would continue to get your monthly "income" from LN users, but you would also have MORE LN users because you have just solved the biggest problem that is keeping the majority of Logos users from subscribing to LN. But, what do I know? I'm just a MSgt in the USAF. By the way...I love Logos and am an avid user. Thank you for continuing to improve the product! I don't care what anyone says, I'm willing to pay for more and better features each year. Keep doing you, brah!
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Andrew Zoll said:Bob Pritchett said:Andrew Zoll said:
Bob, I appreciate all you do in this regard. One of the pain points I keep hearing (and I'm sure you do too) is the issue of "IF I stop Logos Now, I'll revert to Logos 4 or 5 or 6 (based on when I started)." Are there future plans to mitigate those concerns by introducing something like a rent-to-own aspect of Logos Now's non-server-based functions?
We'll keep discussing this... one of the problems is that much of what's in Logos Now (and even more of what's coming) requires server access / huge data storage. If we move to a 'rent to own' model, that doesn't solve our maintenance / support / server costs problem. In fact, it's worse in many ways: instead of Option A (I get your money now) vs Option B (I get your money slowly over time, but it keeps coming in sync with my expenses) that creates a terrible Option C (I get your money slowly, then it stops, but my expenses continue).
I'm sure there's a middle ground where the math works, based on stats of average revenue, lifetime of customer use of servers, etc. Or we could only generate 'ownership' of the offline features... but it's hard to guess and dangerous to guess wrong -- and even owners seem to want core engine upgrades, support for new OS releases, etc. -- forever. (And at already 25 years old -- a pretty old software company! -- with many customers who've been with us 10+ years, it's not hard to see even basic maintenance / support being a significant 'forever' cost.)
I can respect that- and I can see a large contingent of people who have this same pain point being satisfied by a rent-to-own nature of offline-only features. Maybe this wouldn't satisfy everyone, but it would be a move of undeniable logic [i.e. these tools you've paid for for two years; therefore, you now own them because the costs of maintaining them are essentially (though probably not exactly) zero. These other tools however run on our servers, and therefore to maintain access, you must pay monthly/annually to help with server upkeep, etc.]. It would be a move that is hard to argue with after a period of two years (I think two years is an acceptable amount of time- you'll have to help me understand if the math works out).
Personally, I get so much benefit from Logos Now, that I don't see myself ever cancelling; however, this is one of those mind-gnawing concerns that won't go away. I am invested in the profitability of your company. You've provided excellent tools that keep getting better over time and I'm happy to pay my fair share. And I want to see you thrive for another 25 years.
With regard for forever costs of support, etc., perhaps it is something that needs to be sold as a service, rather than packaged in with everything else (just like I don't mind paying Apple $3.99/mo. for the privilege of being able to store/sync 200 GB of data on their servers). I personally don't think it's terribly fair for a company to be expected to give something for free for life (but I'm a strict capitalist). So maybe have a feature with sync for $3/mo., Logos Now for $8/mo., and Logos Now w/ Sync for $10/mo.? Is that sustainable? You'll have to run the numbers, but again I (and I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks this way) have every interest in seeing you guys succeed. Surely there's a way to communicate this sort of important-to-keep-in-mind stuff to a broad swath of customers...
Anyway, thank you for replying! I've been impressed with all the talent that you have surrounded yourself with and with whom I have interacted. Your people make a great company, especially Wyatt Shedd-Stewart, Phil Gons, and Mark Ward (just a few who've been indispensable to my relationship with FL).
Andrew,
I'm telling you, man. You gotta stop stealing my thunder, bro! Quit thinking like me and posting the same stuff as me before I get a chance to post it. I have a gun. OK, not really, but anyway....[B]
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I think it actually is sustainable. In my case, I would have to pay $300 right now to upgrade to the full feature set. I could do that, and Faithlife would get $300 now, and nothing for a while. If I spend that much on an upgrade every 3 years, then a Logos Now subscription is basically equivalent. But, that assumes that my cost of upgrading remains constant, which it may not, and could even go down due to the fact that I would be doing a big upgrade now, followed by smaller ones in future years.
The subscription model, on the other hand, ensures a steady flow of $100 each year. So, over the course of 10 years, I would spend $1,000, which is likely more than I would spend over that same period just to upgrade my feature set. Keep in mind that the subscription doesn't even address my library, which I can't rent, so I'd still have to buy those books.
A third scenario is where I rent for a few years and then decide to buy. In that case, I would essentially have rented for a while, then paid full price to own the features. Yes, I know it wouldn't be full price, due to the discounts, but depending on how many years I've rented, that may not actually make a difference.
So, in the long run, I think Logos Now is a winner for Faithlife. It levels out their revenue stream, and helps keep more people contributing to that revenue. As a comparison, look at what Microsoft is doing with Office 365. For $99 per year, you get 5 licenses for the full office suite, as well as 1 TB of online storage for each of the 5, totalling 5 TB of storage! That's a fantastic deal, and the Office suite has far more functionality than does the Logos software. That's not meant to say that Office is better, I'm merely pointing out that Microsoft's deal isn't for a single-function program like Evernote, it's for a very full-featured and complex piece of software.
Anyway, I hope that LN works out well both for Faithlife and for us. :-)
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What I've done is to set "Automatically download updates" to "No". It still shows me when an update is available, but I can choose to accept it when it's a good time for me. I usually wait until the update size is substantial, such as over 50 MB, or something like that. That way, I'm not bothered by some tiny little update that triggers a re-indexing that slows my machine down. I've been very happy with this approach.
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Bob Price said:
As a comparison, look at what Microsoft is doing with Office 365.
I can assure you we'll be able to reduce our monthly price if we can get the same number of subscriber's as Office 365. :-) There's just a bit of a chicken-or-the-egg gamble about reducing the price first... will those millions show up? It's possible our market is a bit smaller...
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Bob Pritchett said:
Bob,
I received what I believe to be a generic email (previously) and for kicks and giggles, I decided to call the sales rep. because since I had just recently upgraded I should call and see what discounts were available based on purchase history.
I am extremely pleased to say that Logos did do a great thing. It is new with software companies, and I am glad to see Logos following suit. I received what I will call a drastic discount, and chose what I feel was best for me, and a deal I could not pass up. While the past can never be changed, in my opinion, and my opinion has generated A LOT of emotion the past day or so) had this policy been in effect in 2009, I may never have come to this amount of aggravation with Logos. Perhaps it was in place, and it fell through the cracks. However, with the Logos Now concept, thanks to whoever it was who made the case for it, I am pleased to say that I see that you and Logos are in fact trying to run the company in a manner that is pleasing to God, and are not just about money-- as it does quite often appear.
I've seen several who are happy with Now and several who don't "get it". In seeing that any future upgrades will be included (ie "full features", I can be on board with that, because as long as the service is active we are always current. But, I would still hope and pray Logos were to slow down the upgrades esp. since on the "purchase" side, it still is aggravating to a lot of people. Myself included. It won't be as bothersome to me under a subscription rate, but.. I think you know what I have to say for that end.
Now regarding adding the Full Feature side of "purchasing", we'll see. Either way, you get paid, and I have it. So, now what I have to hope for is that this new Logos Now works out for everyone. I do think it's a HUGE compromise, and when I saw what it actually did for us (particularly constant upgrades) I was pretty sure I would go that route.
I am once again motivated to try again to learn to maximize my usage of Logos once again. So, while I am somewhat apologetic for this thread, and the direction it went, I am thrilled that for me, anyway, the excitement over the software is back, and I don't feel like I was cheated. I can now honestly state that I do believe you are attempting to run the company in a manner that reflects God, and how God would run this business. So, to all who have felt "ripped off" or aggravated over the constant upgrades, I can only suggest giving Logos a call, and see what they can offer, esp. if you did a recent upgrade to L6.Batman said:When does it stop? It's never ending.
You're talking about operating system upgrades, right? Or server patches? Or mobile phones?
Yes, it's never ending. Welcome to the technology treadmill.
It keeps changing -- for you and for us. We are going to try to keep earning more of your money. (Earning. Earning.) Because even if you never buy anything else, you're going to expect your data to sync, your purchases to easily migrate to your new machine, your app to run on the next version of Windows or OS X or your phone, your cloud-backed databases to stay available, your information not to be deleted or stolen because we failed to maintain or patch a server, or upgrade its hard drives, etc. And that costs a (surprising) amount of money to maintain -- just to keep servicing a one-time purchase.
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Thank you. You and someone else (still looking for who it was, but, I'll find them) convinced me on Logos Now.
I think you could see that.
Anyway, I actually called Logos, as opposed to DiY online, and found an offer I couldn't refuse, and Now is a huge part of it!
For me, that should take away much of the frustrations on the monetary side of things. I can deal with a $100/yr subscription, but $400 every 2 years just bugs me. Even if I don't do the upgrade. The upgrade just bugs me-- unless it's part of the overall package (as in subscription).
So, thanks. And hopefully this option will help many many people be less upset. You did awesome!Logos Now subscription includes full Logos 7 feature set using SaaS model ($ 89.99 this year, $ 99.99 per year next year)
Thankful for Logos Now "free" previews that have included Mobile Education courses.
Thankful for Logos Now timeline => https://www.logos.com/now-timeline
Keep Smiling
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Bob Price said:
I think it actually is sustainable. In my case, I would have to pay $300 right now to upgrade to the full feature set. I could do that, and Faithlife would get $300 now, and nothing for a while. If I spend that much on an upgrade every 3 years, then a Logos Now subscription is basically equivalent. But, that assumes that my cost of upgrading remains constant, which it may not, and could even go down due to the fact that I would be doing a big upgrade now, followed by smaller ones in future years.
The cost is $300 to go from L6 Starter to Full Feature Set, so that's not gonna repeat in 2 or 3 years's time, because you'd already own every previous feature. It would rather be like upgrading from L6 Diamond to Full Feature Set. What's the cost of that?
Bob Price said:As a comparison, look at what Microsoft is doing with Office 365. For $99 per year, you get 5 licenses for the full office suite, as well as 1 TB of online storage for each of the 5, totalling 5 TB of storage! That's a fantastic deal, and the Office suite has far more functionality than does the Logos software.
Most users don't use a fraction of either functions or storage space. I can't remember when I last opened Access or InfoPath. For $100 you also get to own Office Home&Student, which is pretty sufficient for home use. And who installs Office 365 on more than 2 or 3 devices?
In my opinion LN Now and Office 365 are very similar in terms of value for money (in both cases rather low value...)
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Batman said:
I am once again motivated to try again to learn to maximize my usage of Logos once again. So, while I am somewhat apologetic for this thread, and the direction it went, I am thrilled that for me, anyway, the excitement over the software is back, and I don't feel like I was cheated. I can now honestly state that I do believe you are attempting to run the company in a manner that reflects God, and how God would run this business. So, to all who have felt "ripped off" or aggravated over the constant upgrades, I can only suggest giving Logos a call, and see what they can offer, esp. if you did a recent upgrade to L6.I love it when scripture gets played out (kind of like when Hannibal loves it when a plan comes together). I am reminded of Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose (ESV). I'm glad it "worked out" for you, Batman. I would now encourage you to dive into the video and training blogs and, this time, don't give up or lose interest. I promise you that using Logos to "your" full extent possible (I probably only use about 30%) will keep you captivated and learning about and growing closer to God for years to come. May God bless you in this endeavor. Shalom! (or however you spell it)
p;21.5" iMac; 2.7GHZ; 1TB HD🖥💻 15" Macbook Pro Retina; 2.5GHZ i7; 16 GB; 500GB FSD💻
🎁Logos 6 Diamond; Logos 6 Anglican Diamond; Logos 6 Pentecostal & Charismatic Gold🎁
🌐Logos Now🌐
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I'm reviewing this entire thread. I dont know if he ever got back to you, but, I can tell you what changed my mind. I hope it helps.
1. It's about $100/yr. As David stated that works out to about $7.50/mo.
2. Includes Full Feature for L-7. (I'll address this point again, later.)
3. For me, it's a no-brainer. While some object to $100/yr, I do that with Amazon and HP for my ink. And more than that with Netflix. So, calculating $100/yr over the past 8 or 9 years, I would have spent far less, and would not be as bothered by the constant upgrades.
4. Had this option been available in 2009, and I went that route, had I not liked it, and known the frustration level, I could have exited "stage left", at worst been out $100, at best, cancelled the subscription and received a pro-rated or full refund. Happiness would have followed me all the days of my life, rather than the root of bitterness.
For kicks and giggles, I responded to an email I had previously ignored. Thanks heavily to David, but also "Keep Smiling 4 Jesus" the strong arguments for "Now" made a lot of sense, and I decided to call. I am please to say because of my purchase history and the fact I had recently upgraded to 6, I got a decent discount that I applied to Bronze and Now. With Now I will "rent" Full Features and with Bronze I will have everything else. Needless to say, to me this is the best of all possible worlds. Again, for $7.50/mo I can put the financial frustrations aside. Since upgrades should be included in the future, the constant upgrades won't seem so aggravating, because I won't be paying more and more and more. I do pray, however, Bob and the Logos team does slow down, because there is still the "purchasers" who will be frustrated still. And of course the groupies and fanboys will always be happy, regardless.
There is the downside of renting, however. If for some reason you are unable to continue with the subscriptions, you lose everything not purchased. In my case, next year I will lose the Full Features of L7. While it may seem like "for half the cost I could have bought it, rather than rented it", I strongly disagree. The reason is, with me, perspective. I'm "renting" the library for $7.50/mo. For that fee, I get the upgrades and the Full Features "free" (or included). With "purchase" I only get what I have, and next upgrade, here we go again.
Now, here's what I see in the future. I have a year to explore, like, hate, learn, and yell over everything 7 offers. Should my situation change, I can drop Now, and if I desire, purchase Full Features. At a discount? I don't know. But at that point, if I am happy with it, and want it, I think it's a plausible option. In the meantime, there's no reason to buy it, as I'll already have it. Right?
The last option: Do what I planned on doing: keeping L6. In my case, I would continue to be miserable. Hopefully my misery is an isolated case, and others are much happier than me.
Ok, hope that helps. It's honest, true and I do believe an unbiased opinion.Matthew said:David Betts said:For months I saved toward buying Logos 7 upon release.
I was totally uninterested in "Logos Now," and ignored it until a few days ago.
Having tried Logos Now, I am totally blown away and amazed!
Anything specific that changed your mind?
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Bob Price said:
So, in the long run, I think Logos Now is a winner for Faithlife. It levels out their revenue stream, and helps keep more people contributing to that revenue. As a comparison, look at what Microsoft is doing with Office 365. For $99 per year, you get 5 licenses for the full office suite, as well as 1 TB of online storage for each of the 5, totalling 5 TB of storage! That's a fantastic deal, and the Office suite has far more functionality than does the Logos software. That's not meant to say that Office is better, I'm merely pointing out that Microsoft's deal isn't for a single-function program like Evernote, it's for a very full-featured and complex piece of software.
I will definitely miss my free Office 365 after I lose my student status. However, as far as office is concerned, I'm happy with just the desktop version. I could go back to using Office 2010 and still be perfectly content. The only thing I really even use office for is to type my college papers. So, once I'm done with my Masters degree and am no longer a student, I really won't have a use for office period, especially 365. Yep! Once I'm done with this degree I don't think I will pay for 365. On the other hand, I will probably keep LN for life!
p;21.5" iMac; 2.7GHZ; 1TB HD🖥💻 15" Macbook Pro Retina; 2.5GHZ i7; 16 GB; 500GB FSD💻
🎁Logos 6 Diamond; Logos 6 Anglican Diamond; Logos 6 Pentecostal & Charismatic Gold🎁
🌐Logos Now🌐
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I think maybe Tony Thomas mentioned something about how the Search engine works, or something to that affect. If I've got that correct, I didn't notice any response to that.
For instance, is Logos 7 still producing the "not responding" issue that some of us have been enjoying in Logos 5 & 6 or has anyone noticed that yet?
MSI Pulse GL76-12UGK Intel Core i7-12700H, RTX3070, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD, Windows 11 Home
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Thanks to you heartfelt response, and to David (yikes I forgot his last name), Keep Smiling 4 Jesus, and a couple others who kept pushing Now, you have me. That's a HUGE sell, since just yesterday I was ready to throw Logos out the window.
I have no problem with a subscription service. As you pointed out, Prime, and Netflix. Both I use, but, I also am enrolled in Instant Ink with HP. $10/mo I get 300 pages. That includes color ink, which previously I NEVER used color, to try to save it. Now I can print in color and it's cheaper. And, it's cheaper for HP, because they send out cartridges that last longer.
So, you hitting the subscription in your response was great. Those who demonstrated what Now is, and how I could have spent far less than I did, really helped. They totally sold me. And finally, the discount for purchase history and recent upgrades pushed me over the edge. Now all I have to do is learn the software. The motivation s back. So, I see me being a lifetime subscriber. I'll save money, Logos will make money (we hope) and again, Logos (and you) won't look like greedy (expletives).Bob Pritchett said:Bob Price said:As a comparison, look at what Microsoft is doing with Office 365.
I can assure you we'll be able to reduce our monthly price if we can get the same number of subscriber's as Office 365. :-) There's just a bit of a chicken-or-the-egg gamble about reducing the price first... will those millions show up? It's possible our market is a bit smaller...
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A-Team, eh? Cool.
This has been a rough couple days, to say the least. My frustration seems about as never ending as the constant barrage to upgrade, buy, buy, buy. NOT a model I expect from a company selling the Bible.
With all that said and done, with L7 downloaded, and hopefully Now in place, now (couldnt resist) I do feel better about how everything has worked out. I hope this works as well, or with the same results for others who face similar or the same attitude towards Logos. So, for any who are reading, and you recently upgraded, CALL Logos and see what discounts are available. They could be very substantial and lessen the pain of having just upgraded and the whole "here we go again" pain you feel.
I do have the motivation right now to try again with the video training. The 10 day (not 30 day, I previously called it) training is one I think I still have the link to, and should be very good. I see 7 also has updated training videos, so the loss of 5 and 6 is there. And I saw John Fallahe (sp?) has a training set for semi-reasonable. So, I'll be good there. As long as I keep the motivation up. So, u can pray for me there.
Thanks, brother. Appreciate everything.
Batman,
aka Tim ^v^Dwayne Justice said:Batman said:
I am once again motivated to try again to learn to maximize my usage of Logos once again. So, while I am somewhat apologetic for this thread, and the direction it went, I am thrilled that for me, anyway, the excitement over the software is back, and I don't feel like I was cheated. I can now honestly state that I do believe you are attempting to run the company in a manner that reflects God, and how God would run this business. So, to all who have felt "ripped off" or aggravated over the constant upgrades, I can only suggest giving Logos a call, and see what they can offer, esp. if you did a recent upgrade to L6.I love it when scripture gets played out (kind of like when Hannibal loves it when a plan comes together). I am reminded of Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose (ESV). I'm glad it "worked out" for you, Batman. I would now encourage you to dive into the video and training blogs and, this time, don't give up or lose interest. I promise you that using Logos to "your" full extent possible (I probably only use about 30%) will keep you captivated and learning about and growing closer to God for years to come. May God bless you in this endeavor. Shalom! (or however you spell it)
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Good news my way-- hopefully this will be great news for you too.JoshInRI said:(In response to every post Batman has made in here....)
At last someone who says what I could not....you rock. God bless this mess...and you too.
If you have read some of my other most recent posts, you will notice something "odd". I hope this fits you, and works for you.
I ignored a recent email offering "special discounts" for people who recently upgraded to 6. After seeing some very positives for L Now, I decided to call, and see what they had to offer. I was surprised. I had a very substantial upgrade discount, that I put toward Bronze and Now. It worked out great to not upgrade to Full Feature at this time. It's included with Now. If next year I am unhappy with Now, I can cancel, and go back to being miserable over the constant upgrades. At that point, however, I hope it is me I blame.
I can live with an annual subscription, for several reasons.
1. It works out to less than $10 a month. That is very doable.
2. It is supposed to include all upgrades. If it doesn't, then I will be more than irate.
3. It's only a small amount being at risk, as opposed to $300 or more.
4. I don't feel like I am being slapped in the face any longer by Logos.
At this point, I feel a best of all worlds solution has been provided, and I am very pleased to see that Logos is not how they appeared. Yes, that appearance is very important to me (could you tell?) and it bothers me that a company providing God's word comes off as greedy, and caring more about profit than the Divine Word of God! Maybe they still do, but, from my perspective now, with Now, I see either a huge compromise, or, a path in the right direction. And by calling in, as opposed to ordering online, I feel Logos is in fact trying to make good to the buyers. A HUGE turn around from a few days ago. I know "had I not just dismissed the email" the aggravation might have been avoided. But let me be clear, "special discounts" just sounds more of the same and does not interest me. However, in conjunction with the discounts, the subscription plan, and the totality, I can say it's all good. I will say, again, for all, I do hope the upgrades do slow down, because it does look bad. In the context of Now, it does not matter as long as it not every day. For purchasers, it can be very bad. So, I would call, see if you can get a great discount making it worth your while. Be sure to ask "what if I went the route of Now, and leave off Full Feature (for now, anyway) and see. As you can see, I am very happy, and hope you and others who have felt as if we have been cheated, scammed, robbed, or otherwise mistreated, can feel vindicated, and rewarded by Logos.
Good luck, God bless, and thanks for your support.0 -
Perhaps you might benefit with Logos Now, and seeing if you have any "special discounts" that might make it beneficial to you.
It did me. I wont go into everything, but, I will say that I received a substantial discount for having a recent upgrade that I applied to Bronze and Now to make me realize Logos is indeed trying to do the right thing. By going through Now, I saved the $200 Full Feature fee. That alone made it worth it, without special discounts. Now, when they upgrade to 8 in two years, my Now subscription will include the upgrade to 8. Another huge savings. Granted I don't "own" it; but, I have it, and got a great discount on Bronze, so I have much of what 7 has to offer. And if I decide to go solo, I can always purchase the Full Features.Christopher Easton said:You are right. I have just paid off Logos 6. I am still trying to get some of the new features implemented in my daily use. I am glad Logos keeps updating.
I do not have to upgrade my phone every time there is a new model; when I am ready I will upgrade to Logos 7. With my luck it will be right before Logos 8
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David, I havent seen you since you posted this.
I want to thank you, because you convinced me Now is a great way to go.
I had no plans to upgrade to 7, and I had no plans to go to Now. But your post convinced me to call and give it a try.
I came away with what I wish would have happened way back in L3 days, when I felt taken advantage of (thats better terminology). But, I feel all is well again. For me. And without your post, this may not have happened. Thank youDavid Betts said:For months I saved toward buying Logos 7 upon release.
I was totally uninterested in "Logos Now," and ignored it until a few days ago.
Having tried Logos Now, I am totally blown away and amazed!
I would encourage those who say there is no added value to give Logos Now a try. You can cancel within 30 days if not pleased.
$90 a year for the first year comes to $7.50 per month, or about twenty-five cents per day.
If someone is content and full of joy for what Abba Father has provided in Logos 6, by all means be content with what you have. According to Hebrews 5:11 - 14 some (still) need milk [gala/galaktos] (SEE also 1Pe2:2), others have "moved on" to solid food. I am thankful for the milk. Now, I am thankful that we are provided even better tools to access both milk, and 'solid food.' (According to Mt3:4 this includes locusts).
My encouragement for all is Hebrews 5:11 "..by this time you ought to be teachers," and Mt24:45 which speaks of "food," not just milk. Therefore, according to Hebrew6:2 "Let us go on to maturity....." !!!
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Glenn,
You with your exhaustive and detailed outline, along with a couple others who also explained Now have really made a case for it. As someone else said, I had no plans to upgrade to 7 or Now. Your example of maximizing the value were very instrumental in my deciding to see just what "special discounts" I would receive for having "recently upgraded". I asked about Now, and did all that, and if everything works out as I think it will, I got a much better discount than I expected (I expected at best MAYBE 10% but got much better. One that became an offer I could not refuse). Even with the substantial discount I received, I couldn't go higher than Bronze, and Now, but, by doing so, and by avoiding buy Full Feature, I came away very happy, and felt like Logos did the right thing. The first time I have felt that way since "getting sucked in" back in 2009. Then with me feeling "upgrade proof" with Now, I feel very happy with everything.
So, a huge Thank You is called for.Glenn Airoldi said:We all derive value from Logos differently. Some of us place a tremendous amount of value on new books. Others take exactly the opposite approach, and place more value on new features.
Regardless of where you fit in this spectrum, there are ways to maximize what's valuable to you in an upgrade purchase during our Logos 7 introduction.
If what you're looking to accomplish with an upgrade is to get the best deal on books to grow your library, these are the things you should consider:
- Every Logos 7 Library purchase should be considered an upgrade regardless of level, because you'll be adding new books to your library.
- Users get the best price applied to Logos 7 Libraries in two ways
- Purchase a library and a feature set together - Save 10% on the library -OR-
- Purchase a library alone as a Logos Now Member - save 10% on the library
- During the introductory period, there are additional discounts being applied
- Save an additional 10% as part of our launch promotion
- Logos Now members save another 5%
Here are some examples of how to purchase to maximize the value of the library.
- Buy any library together with a Starter Feature Set, you'll get far fewer features, but still earn the library discounts offered for buying a feature set and library together.
- Become a Logos Now member and purchase a library alone. Even after the introductory period, Logos Now members will save at least 10% on Logos 7 libraries. Consider that a Bronze library costs $200. The Logos Now Membership earns you at least a $20 discount. The $89.99 membership earns you a $122 on a Gold library. (Dynamic pricing will reduce those numbers if you're not paying full price for the libraries.)
If what you're looking to accomplish with an upgrade is to get access to new features, these are the things you should consider:
- Logos Now membership, priced at $99.99 per year is discounted to $89.99 through the end of the year. Members get access to all Logos features for as long as they remain members.
- For anyone who prefers to own the features instead of accessing them as a benefit of membership, these are the options
- Users get the best priced applied to Logos 7 Feature Sets in two ways
- Purchase a feature set and a library together - save 25% on the feature set -OR-
- Purchase a feature set alone as a Logos Now Member - save 25% on the feature set
- During the introductory period, there are additional discounts being applied
- Save an additional 10% as part of our launch promotion
- Logos Now members save another 5%
Here are examples of how to purchase to maximize the value of the feature set.
- Buy a base package instead of a feature set alone
- Choose Bronze over Starter. This $630 base package includes the $599.99 Full Feature set. Buying it with a library earns you the 25% discount, and your dynamic price can bring the dollar total even lower.
- Become a Logos Now member and purchase the Full Feature Set alone. Even after the introductory period, Logos Now members will save at least 25% on Logos 7 feature sets. Consider that the Logos 7 Full Feature Set costs $599.99. The $89.99 Logos Now Membership earns you at least a $150 discount on a Logos 7 Full Feature Set. (Dynamic pricing will reduce these numbers if you're not paying full price for the feature set.)
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I have been hunting this post down all night. I am laughing now, to realize it was you. (With so many responses, I couldn't remember who said what).
Anyway, in addition to my change of opinion for Logos due to several people's recommendations for Now, I wanted to tell you something else happened! (Call in Hanibal).
I saw a feature that I think has been missing for a long time (at least in my version of Logos). I typed in a reference and it popped up immediately. I tested it again, to make sure, with a different passage, and it again was instantaneous. Although now it is slowed down again. Perhaps a system reboot will solve it. But, for the first time since, well, ever, I have gotten pretty instant results. That is cool to finally see. So, I am assuming a glitch that got fixed in 7, or a new feature.Dwayne Justice said:Batman,
I don't know what to tell you, man. First of all, Logos is always open on my computer (maybe you could consider that?) so I wouldn't have that issue, even if it was an issue. Second, when I do close it, or perform my weekly restart of my computer, when I open it back up it only takes about 5 seconds. If that is too long for you to wait, then I got nothing...If I do find that Logos is indexing at the time I am trying to accomplish a search, I simply click the pause button. I honestly do not know why yours is so slow if you maintain that it is not your computer. Maybe you should contact your computer and/or OS software manufacturers to see if it has something to do with your hardware or software not working right with Logos. All I know is that I have zero speed or functionality (searching capability) problems with my Logos on any of my devices (Macbook Pro, iMac, iPad, iPhone). It works great no matter which device I am trying to use Logos on.
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Tim, I'm glad you've got resolution to your frustrations. Like I've written elsewhere, my frustrations are usually self-inflicted. Logos is a powerful program, but if I fail to really get into it to learn it, I can be frustrated.Batman said:
Good news my way-- hopefully this will be great news for you too.JoshInRI said:(In response to every post Batman has made in here....)
At last someone who says what I could not....you rock. God bless this mess...and you too.
If you have read some of my other most recent posts, you will notice something "odd". I hope this fits you, and works for you.
I ignored a recent email offering "special discounts" for people who recently upgraded to 6. After seeing some very positives for L Now, I decided to call, and see what they had to offer. I was surprised. I had a very substantial upgrade discount, that I put toward Bronze and Now. It worked out great to not upgrade to Full Feature at this time. It's included with Now. If next year I am unhappy with Now, I can cancel, and go back to being miserable over the constant upgrades. At that point, however, I hope it is me I blame.
I can live with an annual subscription, for several reasons.
1. It works out to less than $10 a month. That is very doable.
2. It is supposed to include all upgrades. If it doesn't, then I will be more than irate.
3. It's only a small amount being at risk, as opposed to $300 or more.
4. I don't feel like I am being slapped in the face any longer by Logos.
At this point, I feel a best of all worlds solution has been provided, and I am very pleased to see that Logos is not how they appeared. Yes, that appearance is very important to me (could you tell?) and it bothers me that a company providing God's word comes off as greedy, and caring more about profit than the Divine Word of God! Maybe they still do, but, from my perspective now, with Now, I see either a huge compromise, or, a path in the right direction. And by calling in, as opposed to ordering online, I feel Logos is in fact trying to make good to the buyers. A HUGE turn around from a few days ago. I know "had I not just dismissed the email" the aggravation might have been avoided. But let me be clear, "special discounts" just sounds more of the same and does not interest me. However, in conjunction with the discounts, the subscription plan, and the totality, I can say it's all good. I will say, again, for all, I do hope the upgrades do slow down, because it does look bad. In the context of Now, it does not matter as long as it not every day. For purchasers, it can be very bad. So, I would call, see if you can get a great discount making it worth your while. Be sure to ask "what if I went the route of Now, and leave off Full Feature (for now, anyway) and see. As you can see, I am very happy, and hope you and others who have felt as if we have been cheated, scammed, robbed, or otherwise mistreated, can feel vindicated, and rewarded by Logos.
Good luck, God bless, and thanks for your support.
I've come around on the subscription model for a reason I don't see much written about: with Logo Now the member receives updated features along and along, giving him or her the opportunity to understand them one at a time. When a customer simply upgrades every two or three years with the new release, several new features come all at once. It's overwhelming. Maybe when he's about got a handle on functionality, it's time for another major upgrade and the process begins anew.
I think Logos Now helps eliminate that.
At any rate, I'm happy for you. A lot of us defend Logos not because we're fan boys but because we're convinced that Bob and Faithlife are folks of integrity and will do the right thing.Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC
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Batman said:
I do have the motivation right now to try again with the video training. The 10 day (not 30 day, I previously called it) training is one I think I still have the link to, and should be very good. I see 7 also has updated training videos, so the loss of 5 and 6 is there. And I saw John Fallahe (sp?) has a training set for semi-reasonable. So, I'll be good there. As long as I keep the motivation up. So, u can pray for me there.Tim,
Here is something else you may want to take a look at https://www.faithlifetv.com/item/345332. This is a link to almost every Camp Logos video. Kinda made me upset that I paid for the whole video series and then found it here for free. There are a lot of free videos here, but then there are even more that you would have access to if you want to subscribe. As of now, I have no desire to subscribe to this particular service because I do not generally spend a whole lot of time watching TV. I do visit the page every once in a while, though to see what they have for free. I was surprised to see Camp Logos on there for free. Granted, this is for Logos 6, but most of the general "how-to" should be the same. At least I would think so. The only differences that there should be would be the newest features that have come out since the videos were made. Here's to hoping that Camp Logos for Logos 7 is also on faithlifetv for free!!! Anyway, enjoy Camp Logos. It was very helpful to me. However, I would get on there before they decide to pull the free videos. I'll keep praying for you, bud.
p;21.5" iMac; 2.7GHZ; 1TB HD🖥💻 15" Macbook Pro Retina; 2.5GHZ i7; 16 GB; 500GB FSD💻
🎁Logos 6 Diamond; Logos 6 Anglican Diamond; Logos 6 Pentecostal & Charismatic Gold🎁
🌐Logos Now🌐
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Dwayne Justice said:
Here is something else you may want to take a look at https://www.faithlifetv.com/item/345332. This is a link to almost every Camp Logos video. Kinda made me upset that I paid for the whole video series and then found it here for free.
Dwyane it is not free here. You are getting access to it on Faithlife TV because you have paid for it. I have not bought this training and so I simply see a link to purchase it. So dont' feel upset about paying for it, if you didn't pay for it you wouldn't have access. Any courseware you purchase is viewable both within the Logos Desktop App, the Logos Mobile Apps and on Faithlife TV. Sof if you have purchased any mobile Ed course they would also come up as available for you to watch on Faithlife TV.
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Batman said:
I have been hunting this post down all night. I am laughing now, to realize it was you. (With so many responses, I couldn't remember who said what).
Anyway, in addition to my change of opinion for Logos due to several people's recommendations for Now, I wanted to tell you something else happened! (Call in Hanibal).
I saw a feature that I think has been missing for a long time (at least in my version of Logos). I typed in a reference and it popped up immediately. I tested it again, to make sure, with a different passage, and it again was instantaneous. Although now it is slowed down again. Perhaps a system reboot will solve it. But, for the first time since, well, ever, I have gotten pretty instant results. That is cool to finally see. So, I am assuming a glitch that got fixed in 7, or a new feature.Dwayne Justice said:Batman,
I don't know what to tell you, man. First of all, Logos is always open on my computer (maybe you could consider that?) so I wouldn't have that issue, even if it was an issue. Second, when I do close it, or perform my weekly restart of my computer, when I open it back up it only takes about 5 seconds. If that is too long for you to wait, then I got nothing...If I do find that Logos is indexing at the time I am trying to accomplish a search, I simply click the pause button. I honestly do not know why yours is so slow if you maintain that it is not your computer. Maybe you should contact your computer and/or OS software manufacturers to see if it has something to do with your hardware or software not working right with Logos. All I know is that I have zero speed or functionality (searching capability) problems with my Logos on any of my devices (Macbook Pro, iMac, iPad, iPhone). It works great no matter which device I am trying to use Logos on.
I'll tell you what your problem is, Tim. You need to switch over to the dark side of Apple. That will solve ALL your problems. Nah, man, I'm just being facetious and joking around with you. I'm thrilled you are seeing quicker results. Hopefully the reboot helps and it remains quick. Just remember about keeping it open and turning off automatic updates and you should be set.
p;21.5" iMac; 2.7GHZ; 1TB HD🖥💻 15" Macbook Pro Retina; 2.5GHZ i7; 16 GB; 500GB FSD💻
🎁Logos 6 Diamond; Logos 6 Anglican Diamond; Logos 6 Pentecostal & Charismatic Gold🎁
🌐Logos Now🌐
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Disciple of Christ (doc) said:Dwayne Justice said:
Here is something else you may want to take a look at https://www.faithlifetv.com/item/345332. This is a link to almost every Camp Logos video. Kinda made me upset that I paid for the whole video series and then found it here for free.
Dwyane it is not free here. You are getting access to it on Faithlife TV because you have paid for it. I have not bought this training and so I simply see a link to purchase it. So dont' feel upset about paying for it, if you didn't pay for it you wouldn't have access. Any courseware you purchase is viewable both within the Logos Desktop App, the Logos Mobile Apps and on Faithlife TV. Sof if you have purchased any mobile Ed course they would also come up as available for you to watch on Faithlife TV.
AH! OK! I didn't realize that. Thanks, doc!
Tim: Sorry, man. Guess I'm a big fat liar. Sorry if I got your hopes up for nothing. My bizad!
p;21.5" iMac; 2.7GHZ; 1TB HD🖥💻 15" Macbook Pro Retina; 2.5GHZ i7; 16 GB; 500GB FSD💻
🎁Logos 6 Diamond; Logos 6 Anglican Diamond; Logos 6 Pentecostal & Charismatic Gold🎁
🌐Logos Now🌐
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Just to provide the full context, my price to go from Bronze to Bronze, adding the full feature set, is $310. I'm not coming from Starter.
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Batman said:
I do tend to exaggerate. However, in this case I was not. While I did omit version 8, clearly you guys ARE in fact working beyond just 7.1, 7.2, and 7.3 and what is more clear to me is that Logos HAS been working on L-8; and this reiterates my certainty that Logos probably is working on 9 and maybe even 10.
While you may have thought you were helping the cause, you failed to acknowledge Logos IS and HAS been working on 8. That leaves Logos with a bad taste on the credibility issue-- even if that was not your intent, Sorry, but, those are the things that just add fuel to this fire for me.Features that are added to Logos 7 (for Logos Now members) are very likely to become part of the feature sets for future Logos releases (in the same way that Concordance, which we “worked on” for Logos 6.3 is now part of the Full Feature Set for Logos 7).
So yes, in a broad sense, we are “working on” future versions of Logos. I was speaking in a more practical, everyday, “what are the developers doing on Monday morning” sense.
Sorry for any confusion this caused.
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Bill,
I will say this, I had completely lost any desire to even open Logos. I have sat and watched a couple videos, and any desire was gone. I literally hated the software, the company. But because there is material I want/need I would occasionally try to bear through the drudgery, hoping something would click. I have NEVER felt that way about Bible software before. I've considered buying the Proctor seminar DVDs, but refuse to pay$400 for it, given the price tag involved already. (I'm still not sure I care for his business model-- but, at least I can now sit thru some videos).
I give Bob a very hard time-- NOT to make his life miserable, but, because this is a Bible based company, it does need to be held to the best possible standards. I have been impressed with how he comes out and tries to explain some issues. I'm not thrilled with his "we are a business and we are here to make money" response, however. Much of everything else I have never had an issue with. I don't even take issue with making a profit. A workman is worth their hire, after all. It's how it comes off. I try very hard not to make it sound as if I am judging him and esp. his motivations. It does not always look like that, I know. There is a super extreme fine line on his part and on mine. When he addresses the financial issue, it seems as if he ignores the fact that Logos is working with the Bible. From hind sight, maybe it's best to ignore some issues. Maybe not. I do wish he had, it would have helped some, I think. Maybe not.My complete flip-flop, however, is in the fact that I did see Logos make things right for "recent upgraders" not just to make "Me" happy, but all of us. Most of this I will call "self inflicted". Having been through 4 upgrade opportunities in just 7 years (very excessive to me) receiving an email telling me about "special discounts" for yet ANOTHER upgrade meant nothing. There's no point in forking over MORE money to this "greedy corporation" as I had seen it. But, when several people kept saying "Look into Now" whether to me or others, I had to give see what would happen. I figure a 5-10% discount, big fat hairy deal. No-- a very substantial discount, when I went with Now, and then picked up a base package at a substantial price. I figured I would try a month, til the end of the year, and cancel in Jan. Instead, because Logos DID take care of us recent upgraders, in a substantial way, I went full year, and with my renewed excitement plan to do so forever, as long as I can afford it. Why? As one of the members put it, Now is about $7-8 a month; but as I realized, I become "upgrade proof". Which is what I was told 7 years ago, and what I believed coming in. So as long as this continues, I see me being happy.
Also note worthy: Now is well worth it, aside from being "upgrade proof" as they rotate (I guess thats what they do) some of the Mobile Ed courses. I'm still learning what that will entail. I won't "own them", but I will have access to them. I can deal with that. I see some getting frustrated if they get moved out quicker than they can finish it. But, even with my full schedule, I can at least say, "At least I have access to that". I would rather have some of it, and risk about $7-9 than to pay $100-1000 and lose all desire, again! And if there is a course I want to finish, or keep, I can always hope I can afford it. So, that too adds value and excitement. I can only hope they let us go thru all the titles, but, I'm not going to expect that. The fact they include any, is awesome, to me.
Oh yeah. That groupie thing. Yep, everyone sounds like a fanboy rushing to Logos' defense. And sadly, i loathe these discussions over Mac vs. windows. Ive never understood it., And yet, here I am, as one called me "a hater", here. Go figure. I seriously doubt I can fix everyone's frustrations with Logos-- I'm glad to have solved mine-- not only for me, but, also for others who feel the same. Hopefully I will be able to help, I hate to say many, but as many as need it. Again, just seeing Logos doing maybe better than the right thing in my case completely changed my perceptions-- rigt or wrong-- of Logos.Bill Moore said:Tim, I'm glad you've got resolution to your frustrations. Like I've written elsewhere, my frustrations are usually self-inflicted. Logos is a powerful program, but if I fail to really get into it to learn it, I can be frustrated. I've come around on the subscription model for a reason I don't see much written about: with Logo Now the member receives updated features along and along, giving him or her the opportunity to understand them one at a time. When a customer simply upgrades every two or three years with the new release, several new features come all at once. It's overwhelming. Maybe when he's about got a handle on functionality, it's time for another major upgrade and the process begins anew. I think Logos Now helps eliminate that. At any rate, I'm happy for you. A lot of us defend Logos not because we're fan boys but because we're convinced that Bob and Faithlife are folks of integrity and will do the right thing.
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I will never turn to the dark side! roflol.
There are positives regarding Apple. None justify my inability to afford one though. I know, long term it evens out, maybe. I saw someone use like a 2000 year old Mac, and put in a then-recent disc, and it worked. Why did they put it in their Mac? Because it didn't work on my then brand new PC!
I'm hoping I continue seeing quicker results.
Thanks, man. [Y][Y]Oh, faithlife.tv. Was just there last nite. Did not see that. Seems like I have to subscribe to view any of them. But, with a trial, I may go for it. Don't think I want to add another subscription, as I have Amazon, NF, and HP, and now Logos, that I can remember. Maybe a couple others. But, if its monthly, I may go for a couple months, til I get thru Camp 6. Since 4, 5, 6 and 7 are basically the same (another reason I find the upgrades ridiculous) I think I can get through to learning the new features of 7. I guess one plus side on he upgrades being the same.
Dwayne Justice said:I'll tell you what your problem is, Tim. You need to switch over to the dark side of Apple. That will solve ALL your problems. Nah, man, I'm just being facetious and joking around with you. I'm thrilled you are seeing quicker results. Hopefully the reboot helps and it remains quick. Just remember about keeping it open and turning off automatic updates and you should be set.
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Call Logos tomorrow, inquire on Logos Now, how much it would cost to get Bronze after you purchased Now, and then postpone the Full Feature, as it's already part of Now. The price should then be quite nice. There may be some discounts you will qualify for, which would then make it more attractive. In my case it was extremely attractive.
The one thing I have not determined, is whether or not the Full Feature would be available offline. Maybe the entire Now thing is not even available offline. Something I need to look into; but typically, at this point in time, I have not needed to worry about that. In time, I may need to be concerned.
At any rate, I am hoping you will be close to satisfied as I am going with Now, and then getting Bronze 7. Again, I was nowhere near happy to consider $278 plus tax (in my case) PLUS $100 annually. But, in my case, with all the recent upgrade and Now discounts, it was much much lower. Practically giving it away. So, at least try that. You don't like what they offer, don't get sucked in. But, maybe it will be worth it. But, find a way to make it work to your advantage first. Then Logos will be taken care of too.Bob Price said:Just to provide the full context, my price to go from Bronze to Bronze, adding the full feature set, is $310. I'm not coming from Starter.
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My apologies as well.
I like to think I see the best in people. I don't. And when someone says, in this case, "It's simply not true" and it is, from my perspective, it adds fuel to the fire.
Stepping back, I see my attitude was piss-poor, and worse on this subject. But, in my defense, look at how it looks to people in my position. Granted, we may be so slanted against a company by this point, any little mis-step may be a grenade ready to explode. Not a viable excuse, I'll concede, but, a viable defense.
I'm trying to see how "upgrade proof" Logos 3 is. Logos had been around close to 20 years, and had only 2 previous upgrades, I figure. Unless they had entirely different code names. Under this assumption, and under the price tag, I am not in a position to buy a new version constantly. And while "technically" I was not lied to, for all intents and purposes, I was lied to. NOT a great way to start a relationship. Within a few months, out comes L4. THAT does not set well with me.
I go ahead and get the upgrade. I hated 4. Immediate refund. But, now I have to get the new engine, because suddenly support is disappearing. The gloves came on, and I "met" Bob or he met me, for the first time. He did do the right thing for L3 users, allowed Libronix downloads to be available for past purchases.
Not too much later, here comes L5. Now, I believe it was at this point that I hear "We have been working on Logos r for three years". What the HUH?" That puts it back to 3, much less 4. My emotions now? Here we are, three years after "Oh, you will NEVER have to worry about upgrades" and I have seen not one but TWO upgrades "I wouldn't have to worry about". But THEN to hear that Logos had been working on 5 since 3? Furious would be a calm way to describe what was going on inside me, at that point.
Then I turn around and see L6! Then here comes Logos Now. Or some other cockamamie "we need more money" program. By mistake I tried the "free trial" and was left with the L6 engine. GREAT! There went the L5 videos I had just picked up! Nevermind that 4 5 and 6 are all the same, with minor adjustments-- that did not matter, as my anger towards Logos had hit record highs. Which mind you, had already hit record highs. And I'm so far into this wretched software, there's almost NO way out! I'm stuck with a software program I keep feeding, in the HOPES i get something that will motivate me to want to use it. Instead, I hate to open it up because there will be 2 weeks of updates. And, while the program itself allows me to manually update when I want it to, that no longer matters, because I loathe this expensive and worthless to me software.
Then this week I see L7. And in here I see something that triggers my very very sarcastic or whatever adjective to describe it response. In sarcasm, I refer to Logos already having plans for future editions. In my style of sarcasm, (altho based on the previous L5 model, it was not very sarcastic, it was reality) I say "Logos undoubtedly is already working on L9, 10, or 20". Now, no one here knows me, so everyone missed my point. The point that Logos was already working on future upgrades.
So here we are with the two posts I wrote. One to you, one to another FL employee. For him to miss what I intended is not his fault. I get that. But, his response, "We're working on 7.1, 7.2, 7.3", just hit me wrong. It hit me as a flat out lie. Or at best, denial. And further that with Now saying exactly the point I was making: "Hey guess what, suckers! We just sold you 7, but, if you spend $100 a year, you'll get access to version 8".
Was that what was said? No. Of course not. It was more like, "When you subscribe to Logos Now, you will get the Full Feature for Logos 7." and then something about previewing L8! But, as the Liberty commercial goes, "Is that what you read? No!", what I read, was the former statement.
I stated earlier in the thread how I wished I could sell my license and just be rid of Logos. That is how desperate I am in my hatred of the entire Logos company. (So, to the one who called me a "hater"; apparently you were more correct than I realized).
All I want from Logos is a company that is based in integrity, does not make money the number one priority, and a product I can use. For the 7 years I have had Logos, Logos has completely failed me, in every area.
When I did decide to upgrade to L-5, any hatred I had with Logos grew out of control. Some of it my own fault, making a poor decision, I think in how to upgrade. Watch this one. HORRIBLE experience. I had L4 refunded. So, I now had to go through some crazy upgrade from 3 to 4 to 5. Thge, once I thought I was upgraded, I discovered I didn't have the cool datasets. So, I had to do another upgrade. And i STILL didn't get what I thought I was getting, so somehow I had to do yet another upgrade. Two gazillion dollars later, I get what I thought I was getting, to start with. No, Not Bronze for Gold. Just the plain features that apparently didn't cross-grade and upgrade, and side grade, all that nonsense. Keep this in mind with everything else. Maybe you can see why I felt ripped off and cheated and my entire attitude towards EVERYTHING Logos. But then here comes L6. Not going to upgrade. Then I see a giant discount. So, like a fool, I upgrade. More money to the greedy company. But, part of what was good with that upgrade is the "recent upgrade" discount. BUT, I now know my error there. I did it online. So, there was not really a discount. It was a Dynamic pricing discount that LOOKED like a bigger discount than it really was. I discovered that little neat trick after I purchased it. On the advertising page it shows something like a 75% discount. On the shopping cart page, it's actually only a few dollars off. So, there I am AGAIN! Deceived by the master deceivers of Logos.
So yeah, any email telling me about Logos discounts, R-I-G-H-T! But, in this case, there actually was some serious discounts. I prefer not to go into the entire amount, but it was enough of a discount and enough of a means to "upgrade proof" me to be blown away. For the first time, I felt as if Logos did the right thing. Had I been sent the discount emails after all this went down, or personally, I might have felt it a bribe to appease me. But I think (and I'll FINALLY give Bob and Logos the benefit of the doubt) it was a mass emailing to all recent upgraders. While nothing will ever erase what happened previously, if everything works as I see it (again, FINALLY) all will be forgiven-- all will be behind me. Because FINALLY, I see for the first time ever, integrity that I was looking for in Logos (doing the right thing). Based on this substantial discount received and offered, I can see money not being the number one priority-- maybe it is, but, coupled with doing the right thing, it is not as apparent. A vast improvement on MY views of Logos. And, with a renewed faith in the product, with "upgrade proofing" my investment at a much lower rate with Logos Now's annual fees, I have a renewed desire to learn Logos. Maybe not Morris' expensive lessons, but, the free videos and the lower priced lessons offered by John Fallahee. I can FINALLY feel good about Logos and my future products I now feel in control of this, rather than being tossed to the eternal storms of upgrade hell.
So, I hope I painted a very clear picture of why these responses were just well, crap lies to me.
Stepping back, and I can see how my initial remarks were taken literally, and resulted in the responses I received. I can also see how that "working on Monday" vs. a full fledged effort might have resulted in both misguided responses. So putting things in your perspective, I offer my apologies. And I am hopeful for a new turn for my future relationship with Logos. I do pray and implore Logos to carefully consider the frequency of upgrades. I know there are some who would be happy if they came on an hourly basis, and would be all excited if by Monday morning, they went from L-7 to L10,000. And wouldn't mind paying $300 (or more) to upgrade each time. I don't believe I am in the minority in saying that is ridiculous! A slower pace to full upgrades is less a slap in the face. Look at MS. They went from 95 to 98 to ME to XP within 5 years. ME and XP were considered horrible. When they went to XP SP 3, everything was great. It lasted about 6 years before Vista. The grumbling started again. Nothing worked. Then that every few minutes crap started up again. 7, 8 and 10. While XP was supposed to be the final OS, they discovered they were not making the money. So they went with the "over the top" every three years, no matter what model. Apparently that didn't work either. Upgrade overload. So now 10 came out for free to sort of apologize, and is now being called the last OS. Again. Whatever. But hopefully Logos sees that upgrade overload is not good. Upgrade necessity is good.
ThanksBatman said:I do tend to exaggerate. However, in this case I was not. While I did omit version 8, clearly you guys ARE in fact working beyond just 7.1, 7.2, and 7.3 and what is more clear to me
is that Logos HAS been working on L-8; and this reiterates my certainty that Logos probably is working on 9 and maybe even 10.
While you may have thought you were helping the cause, you failed to acknowledge Logos IS and HAS been working on 8. That leaves Logos with a bad taste on the credibility issue-- even if that was not your intent, Sorry, but, those are the things that just add fuel to this fire for me.Features that are added to Logos 7 (for Logos Now members) are very likely to become part of the feature sets for future Logos releases (in the same way that Concordance, which we “worked on” for Logos 6.3 is now part of the Full Feature Set for Logos 7).
So yes, in a broad sense, we are “working on” future versions of Logos. I was speaking in a more practical, everyday, “what are the developers doing on Monday morning” sense.
Sorry for any confusion this caused.
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Batman said:
The one thing I have not determined, is whether or not the Full Feature would be available offline. Maybe the entire Now thing is not even available offline.
The majority of features included in the Full Feature set are available offline - unsurprisingly those which require access to Faithlife servers - such as the Bible Browser - are not.
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