BUG: Logos your tagging is so bad that user expectations accept trash without question

Does anyone at Faithlife understand what the Revised Common Lectionary is? It is derived from the Catholic Lectionary with some minor modifications by particular denominations and with the addition of an optional more narrative oriented path for the first reading from Pentecost to Advent. It is used by at least the following denominations so, no, that "it's Verbum-Catholic" line doesn't cut it.

The Revised Common Lectionary is used in its original or an adapted form by churches around the world. The Ordo Lectionum Missae, on which it is based, is used in the Roman Catholic Church in local translations as the standard lectionary. Various other churches have also adopted (and sometimes adapted) the RCL; some may consider its use optional. These include:

United States
American Baptist Churches, USA

Community of Christ

Disciples of Christ

Episcopal Church in the United States of America

Evangelical Lutheran Church in America

King's Chapel, Boston - an autonomous Unitarian Universalist church in the Anglican tradition

Moravian Church in America

Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod

Presbyterian Church USA

Reformed Church in America

United Church of Christ

United Methodist Church

Unitarian Universalist Christian Fellowship

Canada
Anglican Church of Canada

Canadian Baptists of Western Canada

Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada

Mennonite Church Canada

Presbyterian Church in Canada

United Church of Canada

United Kingdom
Church of England

Church of Scotland

Church in Wales

Methodist Church of Great Britain

Scottish Episcopal Church

United Reformed Church

Philippines
Apostolic Catholic Church

Convention of Philippine Baptist Churches

Episcopal Church of the Philippines

Philippine Independent Church

United Church of Christ in the Philippines

United Methodist Church in the Philippines

Australia
Anglican Church of Australia

Uniting Church in Australia

Italy
Waldensian Evangelical Church

Italian Methodist Church

Baptist Evangelical Christian Union of Italy (UCEBI)

Evangelical Reformed Baptist Churches in Italy

The logical conclusion is that resources created for the RCL are useful not just for the denomination printing said resources but for Catholics and everyone using the RCL.

So why are the major RCL resources that are tied to the lectionary not indexed to it? And why aren't the members of the forums using these resources "mad as ..." over it?

Twelve Months of Sundays (3 volumes) - N.T. Wright
Lent for Everyone (3 volumes) - N.T. Wright
Lectionary Reflections (3 volumes) - Jane William
Following in the Footsteps of Jesus (3 volumes) - Jose Antonio Pagola
Feasting on the Word (12 volumes - incomplete) - various
Preaching from the Lectionary - Gerard S. Sloyan

or Damian's more complete list:

Except they do not seem keyed to any Lectionary:

The Sunday Word: A Commentary on the Sunday Readings

Twelve Months of Sundays: Reflections on Bible Readings, Year A - C

Sermon Studies Series A-C

Feasting on the Word Series

The Lectionary Commentary vv1-3

Lectionary Reflections Year A-C

Lent for Everyone Year A-C

Two Catholic Ones missing Liturgical Index:

Following in the Footsteps of Jesus Years A-C

Easter Grace, Lenten Grace, Advent Grace, Ordinary Grace (vv1-2)

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Comments

James Taylor

why are the major RCL resources that are tied to the lectionary not indexed to it?

Pardon my ignorance on this, but how would this indexing change the connection between the two resources?

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/847037#Comment_847037

Pardon my ignorance on this, but how would this indexing change the connection between the two resources?

IMHO, one should be able to search from the Lectionary for resources that match that liturgical day.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/847037#Comment_847037

One cannot current search for all the commentaries you have on a particular date. One can do so for most of the Catholic commentaries on the Catholic Lectionary readings.

James Taylor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/847043#Comment_847043

Awe, got it. Yes I can see how this would be beneficial. Thanks

Damian McGrath

So why are the major RCL resources that are tied to the lectionary not indexed to it?

When these are correctly indexed to the RCL, I would like them to add in the corresponding Catholic Calendar milestones (as I suggested elsewhere) so that I can do a simple search from the Catholic Lectionary.

Mike Binks

So why are the major RCL resources that are tied to the lectionary not indexed to it? And why aren't the members of the forums using these resources "mad as ..." over it?

'cause I have all but given up on Faithlife looking after its prime functions.

Lectionaries - the mainstay of most 'formal' churches are pretty much the poor relation.

Reading Plans for Books other than the bible are a complete lottery as far as sectioning of the reading goes.

Hymn and Prayer provision are laughable.

But if you want to know how many times the third character in a hebrew word is a vav rather than a pei then the world is your oyster.

Unfortunately my desk is still covered in books when preparing a service - fewer books but still many.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/847067#Comment_847067

But if you want to know how many times the third character in a hebrew word is a vav rather than a pei then the world is your oyster.

Ah there may be more that question those priorities than have been willing to make their opinion known ...

Sean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/847072#Comment_847072

But if you want to know how many times the third character in a hebrew word is a vav rather than a pei then the world is your oyster.

Ah there may be more that question those priorities than have been willing to make their opinion known ...

[:D][A][:P]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/847073#Comment_847073

Remember where we were 7 years ago? Educate me, what are lectionaries?

and only two years ago:

It also needs to be tied to liturgical dates which themselves also need to be added to the PB.

I would suggest that testing with sermons of the early church fathers would be a good proof-of-concept test.

that would only make sense if the sermons had been preached in conformity with a liturgical calendar. I'm not aware of any Logos sermons resources where that is the case. Or am I missing something?

I think it is important to be visible in the forums in order to force Faithlife to see the potential market and allow a bit of momentum ...

Yasmin Stephen

Does anyone at Faithlife understand what the Revised Common Lectionary is? It is derived from the Catholic Lectionary with some minor modifications by particular denominations and with the addition of an optional more narrative oriented path for the first reading from Pentecost to Advent. It is used by at least the following denominations so, no, that "it's Verbum-Catholic" line doesn't cut it.

<SNIPPEd>

The logical conclusion is that resources created for the RCL are useful not just for the denomination printing said resources but for Catholics and everyone using the RCL.

So why are the major RCL resources that are tied to the lectionary not indexed to it? And why aren't the members of the forums using these resources "mad as ..." over it?

Twelve Months of Sundays (3 volumes) - N.T. Wright

Lent for Everyone (3 volumes) - N.T. Wright

Lectionary Reflections (3 volumes) - Jane William

Following in the Footsteps of Jesus (3 volumes) - Jose Antonio Pagola

Feasting on the Word (12 volumes - incomplete) - various

Preaching from the Lectionary - Gerard S. Sloyan

Thanks for posting about this! Some time ago I got an Anglican package which included the highlighted resources and I searched the forums on how to use a lectionary so I could incorporate them into my devotional practice, but all my excitement fizzled when I realized the resources weren't indexed to a lectionary [:(]

My church doesn't use a lectionary (and I don't think it will ever happen!) but I would love to try them myself, preferably with some commentary added in.

As to why I wasn't "mad as ..." over it? I guess I didn't feel knowledgeable enough about either lectionaries or Logos tagging to bring it up, so thanks again for articulating what I couldn't [Y]

SineNomine

When I first saw the thread title, I thought it was an overreaction.

Now I just want someone to fix it. I was planning to buy some of those resources...

Mike Binks

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/847090#Comment_847090

My church doesn't use a lectionary (and I don't think it will ever happen!) but I would love to try them myself, preferably with some commentary added in.

My church (Presbyterian) has a lectionary available but the minister has absolute freedom to ignore it, use it or dip into it.

When I sat down to prepare my first service as a regular preacher I thought what would I like to start...

The Lord told me that it didn't matter how I would like to start it was his gospel that I was to preach (not mine) and that I was to stick to the lectionary and to the gospel reading at that.

What a discipline - I had to preach on passages I didn't like, passages that I had to really work on to get any understanding of what was going on. Stories that were difficult and sayings that were hard.

I only started to feel released later six years later (after two cycles) to move into the letters and the Old Testament. Luckily for the congregation I wasn't in the one charge all the time.

The Lord blessed preachers with those who designed the lectionaries and he blessed the congregation with a system that pretty much covers the whole gamut of scripture - it is not perfect but it is a good stab at it.

Louis St. Hilaire

Does anyone at Faithlife understand what the Revised Common Lectionary is?

Yes.

So why are the major RCL resources that are tied to the lectionary not indexed to it?

Some of it just our usual problem in getting new tagging into old resources, but mostly I've been a bottleneck on this (and all other things liturgical), and I've found the work difficult to delegate. (The liturgical calendar data types are, in some ways, the most complicated I've made, and most difficult to describe to someone who doesn't already have the background knowledge.) I'm hoping I can get it moving this fall.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/847979#Comment_847979

Okay, now we are at the root of the problem, Louis. It shouldn't all be your responsibility. It's back to the old liturgical=Catholic mentality that has plagued Faithlife for many years. Liturgical tagging should be a standard element that the production team has people trained to do. And, yes, I do understand the complications of the liturgical calendars. But Faithlife staffing has to recognize that liturgical calendars, sanctoral cycles et al apply to Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Anglicans and other Protestant groups and can't all be dumped on you.

Hang in there. I may gripe but it's definitely not directed at you.

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/847979#Comment_847979

Another not indexed Catholic resource: Footprints on the Mountain

This is not an old resource and I don't think the other Catholic ones above are either.

Louis, any chance of the RCL resources being available as parallel resources to the Catholic Lectionary resources?

Louis St. Hilaire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/848024#Comment_848024

Hang in there. I may gripe but it's definitely not directed at you.

Thanks. I think the issue isn't so much that anyone here thinks that liturgy is just a Catholic thing, but that the guy who is now busy running Verbum is the same guy that has been building and championing liturgical functionality since before there was a Verbum. There's support outside of Verbum for expanding and improving what we do with liturgy, but practically speaking, it's difficult to move forward without my involvement and leadership.

Another not indexed Catholic resource: Footprints on the Mountain

This is not an old resource and I don't think the other Catholic ones above are either.

I think the others were before 6.0, which is (roughly) when the data types were released, but obviously, this one slipped through the cracks afterwards. The tagging team has been getting better at identifying when liturgical calendar milestones are needed (and part of going back and tagging what we missed will involve further improving their ability to do so), but if you catch any others let us know.

Louis, any chance of the RCL resources being available as parallel resources to the Catholic Lectionary resources?

Yes, eventually we want to have mapping between liturgical calendars sort of like we have for Bible data types--particularly for the obvious cases where the lectionary readings are identical or nearly identical and content for a particular day in one calendar will nearly always be useful for the equivalent day in another calendar. There are, however, some conceptual things to be sorted out and technical hurdles to be overcome.

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/848365#Comment_848365

There's support outside of Verbum for expanding and improving what we do with liturgy, but practically speaking, it's difficult to move forward without my involvement and leadership.

Keep up the good work.

eventually we want to have mapping between liturgical calendars sort of like we have for Bible data types

great news

if you catch any others let us know.

Saints and Feasts of the Liturgical Year

Images of Hope: Meditations on Major Feasts

Preaching to the Converted: On Sundays and Feast Days throughout the Year

Preaching the Social Doctrine of the Church in the Mass, Vol. 1–3

For the RCL: Walter Burghardt's three homily books

I think that the homilies, audiences and angeli of JP II and Benedict XVI should be tagged to the liturgical calendar where possible.

There are a significant number of Lent and Advent resources not keyed to the calendar

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/848401#Comment_848401

iPad. Why no line breaks?

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/848403#Comment_848403

if you catch any others let us know.

Saints and Feasts of the Liturgical Year

Images of Hope: Meditations on Major Feasts

Preaching to the Converted: On Sundays and Feast Days throughout the Year

Preaching the Social Doctrine of the Church in the Mass, Vol. 1–3

For the RCL: Walter Burghardt's three homily books

I think that the homilies, audiences and angeli of JP II and Benedict XVI should be tagged to the liturgical calendar where possible.

There are a significant number of Lent and Advent resources not keyed to the calendar

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/848404#Comment_848404

Add Homilies of Pope Francis which downloaded yesterday.

Bob Schaefer

Thanks, MJ, for continuing to raise this up. It's wonderful having even the partial lectionary support that we have. But it would be so much better if I didn't have to have a custom lectionary study layout hand-populated with the resources I know won't sync automatically. And there's always that nagging feeling that I've forgotten a resource - that's where tagging is brilliant, by revealing resources that I didn't even realize had relevant content.

Thanks also to Louis for the work you're doing on behalf of all of us liturgical Christians.