BUG: Logos your tagging is so bad that user expectations accept trash without question
Does anyone at Faithlife understand what the Revised Common Lectionary is? It is derived from the Catholic Lectionary with some minor modifications by particular denominations and with the addition of an optional more narrative oriented path for the first reading from Pentecost to Advent. It is used by at least the following denominations so, no, that "it's Verbum-Catholic" line doesn't cut it.
wikipedia said:The Revised Common Lectionary is used in its original or an adapted form by churches around the world. The Ordo Lectionum Missae, on which it is based, is used in the Roman Catholic Church in local translations as the standard lectionary. Various other churches have also adopted (and sometimes adapted) the RCL; some may consider its use optional. These include:
- United States
- American Baptist Churches, USA
- Community of Christ
- Disciples of Christ
- Episcopal Church in the United States of America
- Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
- King's Chapel, Boston - an autonomous Unitarian Universalist church in the Anglican tradition
- Moravian Church in America
- Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod
- Presbyterian Church USA
- Reformed Church in America
- United Church of Christ
- United Methodist Church
- Unitarian Universalist Christian Fellowship
- Canada
- United Kingdom
- Philippines
- Australia
- Italy
The logical conclusion is that resources created for the RCL are useful not just for the denomination printing said resources but for Catholics and everyone using the RCL.
So why are the major RCL resources that are tied to the lectionary not indexed to it? And why aren't the members of the forums using these resources "mad as ..." over it?
- Twelve Months of Sundays (3 volumes) - N.T. Wright
- Lent for Everyone (3 volumes) - N.T. Wright
- Lectionary Reflections (3 volumes) - Jane William
- Following in the Footsteps of Jesus (3 volumes) - Jose Antonio Pagola
- Feasting on the Word (12 volumes - incomplete) - various
- Preaching from the Lectionary - Gerard S. Sloyan
or Damian's more complete list:
Damian McGrath said:Except they do not seem keyed to any Lectionary:
- The Sunday Word: A Commentary on the Sunday Readings
- Twelve Months of Sundays: Reflections on Bible Readings, Year A - C
- Sermon Studies Series A-C
- Feasting on the Word Series
- The Lectionary Commentary vv1-3
- Lectionary Reflections Year A-C
- Lent for Everyone Year A-C
Two Catholic Ones missing Liturgical Index:
- Following in the Footsteps of Jesus Years A-C
- Easter Grace, Lenten Grace, Advent Grace, Ordinary Grace (vv1-2)
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
Comments
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MJ. Smith said:
why are the major RCL resources that are tied to the lectionary not indexed to it?
Pardon my ignorance on this, but how would this indexing change the connection between the two resources?
Logos 10 | Dell Inspiron 7373 | Windows 11 Pro 64, i7, 16GB, SSD | iPhone 13 Pro Max
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James Taylor said:
Pardon my ignorance on this, but how would this indexing change the connection between the two resources?
IMHO, one should be able to search from the Lectionary for resources that match that liturgical day.
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One cannot current search for all the commentaries you have on a particular date. One can do so for most of the Catholic commentaries on the Catholic Lectionary readings.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Awe, got it. Yes I can see how this would be beneficial. Thanks
Logos 10 | Dell Inspiron 7373 | Windows 11 Pro 64, i7, 16GB, SSD | iPhone 13 Pro Max
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MJ. Smith said:
So why are the major RCL resources that are tied to the lectionary not indexed to it?
When these are correctly indexed to the RCL, I would like them to add in the corresponding Catholic Calendar milestones (as I suggested elsewhere) so that I can do a simple search from the Catholic Lectionary.
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MJ. Smith said:
So why are the major RCL resources that are tied to the lectionary not indexed to it? And why aren't the members of the forums using these resources "mad as ..." over it?
'cause I have all but given up on Faithlife looking after its prime functions.
Lectionaries - the mainstay of most 'formal' churches are pretty much the poor relation.
Reading Plans for Books other than the bible are a complete lottery as far as sectioning of the reading goes.
Hymn and Prayer provision are laughable.
But if you want to know how many times the third character in a hebrew word is a vav rather than a pei then the world is your oyster.
Unfortunately my desk is still covered in books when preparing a service - fewer books but still many.
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Mike Binks said:
But if you want to know how many times the third character in a hebrew word is a vav rather than a pei then the world is your oyster.
Ah there may be more that question those priorities than have been willing to make their opinion known ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Mike Binks said:
But if you want to know how many times the third character in a hebrew word is a vav rather than a pei then the world is your oyster.
Ah there may be more that question those priorities than have been willing to make their opinion known ...
[:D][A][:P]
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Remember where we were 7 years ago? Educate me, what are lectionaries?
and only two years ago:
anonymous said:MJ. Smith said:It also needs to be tied to liturgical dates which themselves also need to be added to the PB.
I would suggest that testing with sermons of the early church fathers would be a good proof-of-concept test.
that would only make sense if the sermons had been preached in conformity with a liturgical calendar. I'm not aware of any Logos sermons resources where that is the case. Or am I missing something?
I think it is important to be visible in the forums in order to force Faithlife to see the potential market and allow a bit of momentum ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Does anyone at Faithlife understand what the Revised Common Lectionary is? It is derived from the Catholic Lectionary with some minor modifications by particular denominations and with the addition of an optional more narrative oriented path for the first reading from Pentecost to Advent. It is used by at least the following denominations so, no, that "it's Verbum-Catholic" line doesn't cut it.
<SNIPPEd>
The logical conclusion is that resources created for the RCL are useful not just for the denomination printing said resources but for Catholics and everyone using the RCL.
So why are the major RCL resources that are tied to the lectionary not indexed to it? And why aren't the members of the forums using these resources "mad as ..." over it?
- Twelve Months of Sundays (3 volumes) - N.T. Wright
- Lent for Everyone (3 volumes) - N.T. Wright
- Lectionary Reflections (3 volumes) - Jane William
- Following in the Footsteps of Jesus (3 volumes) - Jose Antonio Pagola
- Feasting on the Word (12 volumes - incomplete) - various
- Preaching from the Lectionary - Gerard S. Sloyan
Thanks for posting about this! Some time ago I got an Anglican package which included the highlighted resources and I searched the forums on how to use a lectionary so I could incorporate them into my devotional practice, but all my excitement fizzled when I realized the resources weren't indexed to a lectionary [:(]
My church doesn't use a lectionary (and I don't think it will ever happen!) but I would love to try them myself, preferably with some commentary added in.
As to why I wasn't "mad as ..." over it? I guess I didn't feel knowledgeable enough about either lectionaries or Logos tagging to bring it up, so thanks again for articulating what I couldn't [Y]
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When I first saw the thread title, I thought it was an overreaction.
Now I just want someone to fix it. I was planning to buy some of those resources...
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Yasmin Stephen said:
My church doesn't use a lectionary (and I don't think it will ever happen!) but I would love to try them myself, preferably with some commentary added in.
My church (Presbyterian) has a lectionary available but the minister has absolute freedom to ignore it, use it or dip into it.
When I sat down to prepare my first service as a regular preacher I thought what would I like to start...
The Lord told me that it didn't matter how I would like to start it was his gospel that I was to preach (not mine) and that I was to stick to the lectionary and to the gospel reading at that.
What a discipline - I had to preach on passages I didn't like, passages that I had to really work on to get any understanding of what was going on. Stories that were difficult and sayings that were hard.
I only started to feel released later six years later (after two cycles) to move into the letters and the Old Testament. Luckily for the congregation I wasn't in the one charge all the time.
The Lord blessed preachers with those who designed the lectionaries and he blessed the congregation with a system that pretty much covers the whole gamut of scripture - it is not perfect but it is a good stab at it.
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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MJ. Smith said:
Does anyone at Faithlife understand what the Revised Common Lectionary is?
Yes.
MJ. Smith said:So why are the major RCL resources that are tied to the lectionary not indexed to it?
Some of it just our usual problem in getting new tagging into old resources, but mostly I've been a bottleneck on this (and all other things liturgical), and I've found the work difficult to delegate. (The liturgical calendar data types are, in some ways, the most complicated I've made, and most difficult to describe to someone who doesn't already have the background knowledge.) I'm hoping I can get it moving this fall.
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Okay, now we are at the root of the problem, Louis. It shouldn't all be your responsibility. It's back to the old liturgical=Catholic mentality that has plagued Faithlife for many years. Liturgical tagging should be a standard element that the production team has people trained to do. And, yes, I do understand the complications of the liturgical calendars. But Faithlife staffing has to recognize that liturgical calendars, sanctoral cycles et al apply to Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Anglicans and other Protestant groups and can't all be dumped on you.
Hang in there. I may gripe but it's definitely not directed at you.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Another not indexed Catholic resource: Footprints on the Mountain
This is not an old resource and I don't think the other Catholic ones above are either.
Louis, any chance of the RCL resources being available as parallel resources to the Catholic Lectionary resources?
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MJ. Smith said:Hang in there. I may gripe but it's definitely not directed at you.
Thanks. I think the issue isn't so much that anyone here thinks that liturgy is just a Catholic thing, but that the guy who is now busy running Verbum is the same guy that has been building and championing liturgical functionality since before there was a Verbum. There's support outside of Verbum for expanding and improving what we do with liturgy, but practically speaking, it's difficult to move forward without my involvement and leadership.
Damian McGrath said:
Another not indexed Catholic resource: Footprints on the Mountain
This is not an old resource and I don't think the other Catholic ones above are either.
I think the others were before 6.0, which is (roughly) when the data types were released, but obviously, this one slipped through the cracks afterwards. The tagging team has been getting better at identifying when liturgical calendar milestones are needed (and part of going back and tagging what we missed will involve further improving their ability to do so), but if you catch any others let us know.
Damian McGrath said:Louis, any chance of the RCL resources being available as parallel resources to the Catholic Lectionary resources?
Yes, eventually we want to have mapping between liturgical calendars sort of like we have for Bible data types--particularly for the obvious cases where the lectionary readings are identical or nearly identical and content for a particular day in one calendar will nearly always be useful for the equivalent day in another calendar. There are, however, some conceptual things to be sorted out and technical hurdles to be overcome.
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Louis St. Hilaire said:
There's support outside of Verbum for expanding and improving what we do with liturgy, but practically speaking, it's difficult to move forward without my involvement and leadership.
Keep up the good work.Louis St. Hilaire said:eventually we want to have mapping between liturgical calendars sort of like we have for Bible data types
great newsLouis St. Hilaire said:if you catch any others let us know.
Saints and Feasts of the Liturgical YearImages of Hope: Meditations on Major FeastsPreaching to the Converted: On Sundays and Feast Days throughout the YearPreaching the Social Doctrine of the Church in the Mass, Vol. 1–3For the RCL: Walter Burghardt's three homily booksI think that the homilies, audiences and angeli of JP II and Benedict XVI should be tagged to the liturgical calendar where possible.There are a significant number of Lent and Advent resources not keyed to the calendar
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iPad. Why no line breaks?
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Louis St. Hilaire said: if you catch any others let us know.
Saints and Feasts of the Liturgical Year
Images of Hope: Meditations on Major Feasts
Preaching to the Converted: On Sundays and Feast Days throughout the Year
Preaching the Social Doctrine of the Church in the Mass, Vol. 1–3
For the RCL: Walter Burghardt's three homily books
I think that the homilies, audiences and angeli of JP II and Benedict XVI should be tagged to the liturgical calendar where possible.
There are a significant number of Lent and Advent resources not keyed to the calendar
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Add Homilies of Pope Francis which downloaded yesterday.
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Thanks, MJ, for continuing to raise this up. It's wonderful having even the partial lectionary support that we have. But it would be so much better if I didn't have to have a custom lectionary study layout hand-populated with the resources I know won't sync automatically. And there's always that nagging feeling that I've forgotten a resource - that's where tagging is brilliant, by revealing resources that I didn't even realize had relevant content.
Thanks also to Louis for the work you're doing on behalf of all of us liturgical Christians.
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