how to search 'faith' with and without a preceding article

Good morning!

I'm trying to find the occurrences in Romans where faith (lemma pistis) occurs in the NA27 with a preceding artical (lemma ho). I want the results to show in the NASB95.

I try this bible search in the NASB95: <Lemma = lbs/el/ὁ> BEFORE 1 WORD <Lemma = lbs/el/πίστις> , but that misses several occurrences.

For example, a more general search, <Lemma = lbs/el/πίστις> , includes Romans 1:8 where the article occurs, 1 word before pistis. It seems the results are showing where 'the' occurs before 'fatih' in the NASB95 -- but I want the occurrences in NA27. (I only want the NASB95 in the results for a comparison)

If I do the bible search in NA27 w/ Gramcord Interliner, instead of NASB95, I get zero results. I get the same with a morph search

Also -- for comparison, I'd like to search for all occurrences of pistis without a preceding article, but I have no idea at all how to form that search.

Thanks in advance for help!

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NB.Mick

I try this bible search in the NASB95: <Lemma = lbs/el/ὁ> BEFORE 1 WORD <Lemma = lbs/el/πίστις> , but that misses several occurrences.

This is because RIs simply are not suited for searches where you are keen on the original ordering of Words in the Greek text.

If I do the bible search in NA27 w/ Gramcord Interliner, instead of NASB95, I get zero results.

This may be because of the different morphology. Try the SBLGNT resource instead

Todd Phillips

Also -- for comparison, I'd like to search for all occurrences of pistis without a preceding article, but I have no idea at all how to form that search.

Without a NOT operator, some searches are difficult. The passage list merge function can help get around this.

You can create passage lists from your searches using the search panel corner menu. Make one for the "<Lemma = lbs/el/πίστις>" search, and then another passage list for the "<Lemma = lbs/el/ὁ> BEFORE 1 WORD <Lemma = lbs/el/πίστις>" search.

Then in the new "<Lemma = lbs/el/πίστις>" passage list select Merge, then select the other passage list in the pop-up, and then select Difference to remove the verses with an article from the main list. This will create a new list that has verses with pistis and no article.

BTW, I used the standard NA27 ("Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament, 27th Edition") -- it has Logos morphology. I've hidden the Gramcord one to keep from accidentally using it.

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/858227#Comment_858227

BTW, I used the standard NA27 ("Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament, 27th Edition") -- it has Logos morphology. I've hidden the Gramcord one to keep from accidentally using it.

for those who only own the GRAMCORD version (and don't want to use the free SBLGNT), they only need to use lls/el/.... instead of lbs/el/.....

I also think that since some versions now we can simply use lemma:πίστις without specifying the morphology

Fr Devin Roza

I'm trying to find the occurrences in Romans where faith (lemma pistis) occurs in the NA27 with a preceding artical (lemma ho). I want the results to show in the NASB95.

This type of search is really easy with the new Morph Query Builder document type. To try it out you have to be on Logos or Verbum 7.2 Beta 1 or higher, and you have to have Logos or Verbum Now....

I wouldn't consider myself an expert on these searches yet, but here's my attempt at it. It seems to work really well, and I don't see any false positives:

I get the following results:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

If I do the bible search in NA27 w/ Gramcord Interliner, instead of NASB95, I get zero results. I get the same with a morph search

Gramcord abbreviation is lls

@A BEFORE 1 WORD <Lemma = lls/el/πίστις>

Logos Greek Morphology lbs is useful for searching NA27 w/ McReynolds Interlinear

(<LogosMorphGr ~ D???> OR <LogosMorphGr ~ P>) BEFORE 2 WORDS <Lemma = lbs/el/πίστις>

<Root = lbs/el/πιστευω>

Syntax Searches to find Determiner and Prepositional usage

Also -- for comparison, I'd like to search for all occurrences of pistis without a preceding article, but I have no idea at all how to form that search.

One way is saving search results as passage lists: all occurrences of πίστις and πίστις with a preceeding article then merge lists to create a passage list with differences (anarthous πίστις is often in a prepositional phrase) Romans 3:28 is an adverbial use of πίστις

Keep Smiling [:)]

Fr Devin Roza

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/858248#Comment_858248

One verse that is good to test these searches against is Romans 1:12 - some types of searches will give that verse as a false positive, as the definite article is 3 words away from the noun.

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/858253#Comment_858253

There are tonnes of people who know this better, but this to me looks like a good example of the advantage of syntax over morphological resources.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/858253#Comment_858253

One verse that is good to test these searches against is Romans 1:12 - some types of searches will give that verse as a false positive, as the definite article is 3 words away from the noun.

Revised Syntax Search to find article in agreement, which includes Romans 1:12

Keep Smiling [:)]

Fr Devin Roza

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/858314#Comment_858314

One verse that is good to test these searches against is Romans 1:12 - some types of searches will give that verse as a false positive, as the definite article is 3 words away from the noun.

Revised Syntax Search to find article in agreement, which includes Romans 1:12

Keep Smiling

This is a perfect example of when you want to use Anything and also select "Matching skips levels."

The following search is equivalent to the search you built, but more flexible, as it would allow even more than 3 words between the definite article and it's corresponding noun. The "anything" allows multiple words, and the "matching skips levels" allows for different "columns":

The results are the same as what you got:

I haven't been able to construct a syntax search for anarthrous nouns. I'm not sure how to do it, as everything I construct returns 0 hits. I would think this should work, simply reversing the search for nouns with a definitive article, but it doesn't:

Maybe Rick Brannon or Dave or someone else would know how to do this in syntax search.

(nevertheless the Morph Query Builder query I posted above does seem to work properly for searching for anarthrous nouns, and doesn't include the false hit of Rom 5:12.)

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/858321#Comment_858321

searching for anarthrous nouns,

Unlikely that there is anything new here but ...

Search for anarthrous nouns in Greek that are translated with the article

Syntax search & Anarthrous nouns

syntax search question

Fr Devin Roza

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/858325#Comment_858325

syntax search question

This thread from 2009 contains a suggestion by Dave about how to build a syntax search for anarthrous nouns. Regardless of whether it worked properly in 2009, it is not working properly now.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/858253#Comment_858253

One verse that is good to test these searches against is Romans 1:12 - some types of searches will give that verse as a false positive, as the definite article is 3 words away from the noun.

There are pitfalls in using Syntax Search and Morph Query for anarthrous queries e.g. it's easy to find an anarthrous phrase consisting of the word itself, whilst the higher level phrase has the determiner. But how many levels are relevant? In Morph Query you decide it is not relevant outside a window of 4 words or three? Is the morphology of article and noun relevant in a deterministic way? Rom 1:12 is an example to consider, but why is it false positive?

Fr Devin Roza

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/858644#Comment_858644

There are pitfalls in using Syntax Search and Morph Query for anarthrous queries e.g. it's easy to find an anarthrous phrase consisting of the word itself, whilst the higher level phrase has the determiner. But how many levels are relevant? In Morph Query you decide it is not relevant outside a window of 4 words or three?

I agree there is currently no sure way of doing this search. It may be the type of thing that has to be manually tagged.

I chose 4 words as the boundary level simply by trial and error. If I increased it further than 4, or if I lowered it lower than 4, I started getting false positives or false negatives. 4 worked out to be the most accurate boundary level, even though there may be extreme cases where 4 won't work (I don't think there are any in the book of Romans, however).

Rom 1:12 is an example to consider, but why is it false positive?

People have actually been discussing two different searches on this thread - how to find pistis without the definite article, and how to find it with the article. In Romans 1:12, it has the definite article, but many of the proposed searches to find pistis without the definite article returned Romans 1:12, in which case it is a false positive. I think so far the only search proposal for finding pistis without the definite article that correctly does not include ROmans 1:12 is using the Morph Query builder... even with the limitations that you mention above.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/858687#Comment_858687

In Romans 1:12, it has the definite article,

My question was more fundamental. The article is adjacent after re-ordering in the ESV interlinear ribbon, but why is that so?

Fr Devin Roza

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/858983#Comment_858983

The article is adjacent after re-ordering in the ESV interlinear ribbon, but why is that so?

The word "faith" in English translates both Greek words, so that is why they are adjacent in the interlinear, where English word order rules. The interlinear always works that way whenever a word in Greek has the definite article, but the article isn't translated in English (e.g. search for faith INTERSECTS <Lemma = lbs/el/ὁ> for more examples).

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/859045#Comment_859045

The interlinear always works that way whenever a word in Greek has the definite article

But why is the article not adjacent in Greek, and why does it not apply to intervening words?

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/858321#Comment_858321

This is a perfect example of when you want to use Anything and also select "Matching skips levels."

The following search is equivalent to the search you built, but more flexible, as it would allow even more than 3 words between the definite article and it's corresponding noun. The "anything" allows multiple words, and the "matching skips levels" allows for different "columns":

[:D] Thanks

I haven't been able to construct a syntax search for anarthrous nouns. I'm not sure how to do it, as everything I construct returns 0 hits. I would think this should work, simply reversing the search for nouns with a definitive article, but it doesn't:

Romans has three anarthrous uses of πίστις that are also not in a prepositional phrase:

Dave Hooton's 2009 reply => https://community.logos.com/forums/p/6897/53773.aspx#53773

You basically specify that the article must not be present.

Learned Matching Skip Levels includes a false positive in Romans 3:30 plus did not find Romans 3:28, 12:3, nor 14:22

Believe Romans has 20 anarthrous uses of πίστις that includes prepositional phrases:

Keep Smiling [:)]

Fr Devin Roza

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/859194#Comment_859194

Believe Romans has 20 anarthrous uses of πίστις that includes prepositional phrases:

Wow... very, very impressive!

But you're still missing two - I think there are actually 21 (or 22 if you count Romans 16:26, as the syntax search does).

With the Morph Query document I got 21 (cf. http://community.logos.com/forums/p/131897/858214.aspx#858244), as the SBLGNT doesn't include Romans 16:26 at all. It looks like a bug (which I just reported here) is preventing 12:3 and 14:22, 23 from displaying, even though they are being counted and included in the total number 21.

The Morph Query Builder search includes Romans 3:25 and Romans 10:6, which the syntax search is still missing.

Once you add the structure to get those included, it would be interesting to change the final terminal nodes from pistis to a generic search for nouns or participial substantives to see how well the search works as a general syntax search for anarthrous nouns. Please share that syntax search to the Faithlife syntax search group! I checked the other day and no one has ever published a successful syntax search for anarthrous nouns.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/860414#Comment_860414

The Morph Query Builder search includes Romans 3:25 and Romans 10:6, which the syntax search is still missing.

Romans 3:25 has a definite article

Cascadia SBL is anarthrous in Romans 3:25

Logos 7.2 Beta 2 has Syntax Search bug for Cascadia SBL; cannot filter passages to Romans.

Romans 10:6 has a definite article in clause, which does not agree with πίστις so working on Syntax Search modification that finds Romans 10:6 while excluding Romans 1:12

Keep Smiling [:)]

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/860439#Comment_860439

Romans 10:6 has a definite article in clause, which does not agree with πίστις so working on Syntax Search modification that finds Romans 10:6 while excluding Romans 1:12

Syntax Search modification finds Romans 10:6 anarthrous use of πίστις

SBL Edition does not have Romans 16:26

Shared both Syntax Searches with Faithlife Group Logos Syntax Searching => https://faithlife.com/logos-syntax-searching/documents

Modification added Syntax Search for Determiner that did not agree with Noun, which can cause determiner to appear up to three times in results per noun.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Fr Devin Roza

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/860637#Comment_860637

Shared both Syntax Searches with Faithlife Group Logos Syntax Searching => https://faithlife.com/logos-syntax-searching/documents

Could that search for πίστις be the most epic syntax search ever? [H][Y]

While for "pistis" it works just as well as the Morph Query document search, for ἀλήθεια your syntax search actually works better, precisely because it has the syntax information.

When I changed the Morph Query to ἀλήθεια, the Morph Query document returned 45 hits, compared to 46 for the Syntax Search. The Morph Query was missing one anarthrous noun, in 2 Cor 7:14, where the phrase ἡ ἐπὶ Τίτου ἀλήθεια confuses the Morph Query. Here the article is actually a pronomial article, acting as a relative pronoun in the phrase ἡ καύχησις ἡμῶν ἡ ἐπὶ Τίτου, and doesn't modify ἀλήθεια, which is anarthrous.

The Morph Query document could easily have the ability to successfully run this search. We can already filter by "pronoun type", "conjunction subtype", "adverb/particle type", etc. but there is no option for "article type", even though the data is available in the SBLGNT, where definite articles are classified as "attributive articles", while in 2 Cor 7:14 the article is classified as a "pronomial article." I'll post a petition in the Beta forum for that functionality.

Fr Devin Roza

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/861007#Comment_861007

Rick Brannon has put together a simple Syntax Search that finds anarthrous nouns. Seems to work great! He has posted it to the Logos Syntax Searching Faithlife group as "OpenText: Anarthrous αληθεια". Here is a photo of it adapted for πίστις: