Logos does not owe you a sale
I've noticed a bit of whinging on the forums about the level of discounts offered, the sorts of things that are on sale, etc.
It's worth pointing out, Logos doesn't owe you any sales. They are free to sell what they want at the prices they want. You can choose to buy elsewhere. That's how our market works.
Now, I'm first to say that there have been some shonky marketing practices, some very frustrating decisions (eg prepub stopping future sales), and some genuine problems with the way the website shows value etc.
Let's save our constructive criticism for the things that actually matter. The more we whinge about X or Y sale not being what we wanted, the more Faithlife will see us as people who will never be pleased, and ignore us
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Andrew116 said:
Now, I'm first to say that there have been some shonky marketing practices, some very frustrating decisions (eg prepub stopping future sales), and some genuine problems with the way the website shows value etc.
And we are raising those issues...
Andrew116 said:Faithlife will see us as people who will never be pleased, and ignore us
And they will do so at their loss. A business who starts to ignores is customers concerns will loose its customers
Andrew116 said:It's worth pointing out, Logos doesn't owe you any sales. They are free to sell what they want at the prices they want. You can choose to buy elsewhere. That's how our market works.
We all know how the market works. But as long term customers we are giving Faithlife the respect of providing them with feedback of why we have become disolutioned and disengaged with them and that extends to not just ... Andrew116 said:some shonky marketing practices, some very frustrating decisions (eg prepub stopping future sales), and some genuine problems with the way the website shows value etc.
but also the lack lustre offerings on sales. Its all part of the same package. To ignore this part would result in us being dishonest with ourselves and dishonest with Faithlife. While I respect your choice to not raise this issue yourself, please respect the choice of others for whom these sort of things are a serious concern and feel they need to be voiced.A company that is customer focussed is interested in what is disengages their customers These forums are for all customers of Faithlife to provide feedback on what both engages and disengages. Whether or not they choose to listen is their choice, their business and it is their concern.
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I think if you look back at the forums this has been posted many times. many times. another one?
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Right on point Disciple of Christ (doc)
What you posted is very logical and makes a lot of sense.
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Andrew116 said:
It's worth pointing out, Logos doesn't owe you any sales. They are free to sell what they want at the prices they want.
Yes, and yes.
I have no idea how much FL needs to sell things for to be profitable, or how profitable they are. I hope they will be profitable and continue to innovate.
I might not be able to afford what they sell, even if it is on sale, but I am grateful for the program and the resources I have.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Disciple of Christ (doc) said:
we are giving Faithlife the respect of providing them with feedback
In general, perhaps we could be more respectful and constructive, and less critical or resentful?
I'll apologize to FL for being less Christlike. Christ forgave much. I should be able to forgive trivial matters. Sorry, FL owners and employees.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Andrew116 said:
It's worth pointing out, Logos doesn't owe you any sales.
It is also worth pointing out that we don't owe Logos our business either. Without sales, I buy very little and have actually committed to buy even less since Faithlife Corp. has decided not to be the Logos of yesteryear.
Within the last two days, I have cancelled some pre-pubs, downloaded a competitor's program and cancelled my Logos Now Subscription. I was a month-to-month subscriber and since they decided to go back on their promise of that model after a short period, I decided to not renew.
I kept some pre-pubs and will buy when I see something that I want but not often.
So yea, they don't owe me a sale but I don't owe them my business either. I'll go somewhere that does offer me incentives to buy.
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Andrew116 said:
I've noticed a bit of whinging on the forums about the level of discounts offered, the sorts of things that are on sale, etc.
It's worth pointing out, Logos doesn't owe you any sales. They are free to sell what they want at the prices they want. You can choose to buy elsewhere. That's how our market works.
Now, I'm first to say that there have been some shonky marketing practices, some very frustrating decisions (eg prepub stopping future sales), and some genuine problems with the way the website shows value etc.
Let's save our constructive criticism for the things that actually matter. The more we whinge about X or Y sale not being what we wanted, the more Faithlife will see us as people who will never be pleased, and ignore us
Thank you for showing us, from your superior vantage point, what we should and should not be thinking, feeling, and doing.
Do you have any more advice?
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Of course Logos doesn't 'owe' ... independent of their earlier marketing statements.
And the forum is likely a tiny fraction of their sales metrics ... you'd have to see the post-event data to see what customers actually did.
But customer frustration lies in a pricing policy that is difficult to understand. 'Used to', the premium prices ( and they are premium) were offset by 'oh wow' sales events. And you knew the 'oh wow' would appear. Now, you don't. Still got premium prices. And dynamic pricing, if you're already committed. Else?
Large retailers have tried to re-train customers from an earlier pricing policy ... very difficult to pull off, and almost no success stories. But again, you'd need to see data.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Andrew, in the forums, like e mail, it can be difficult to interpret the tone of a post. I agree that from my perspective the tone of many posts can appear less than kind or considerate. However, as Denise posted, Logos has marketed their product through sales, and customers come to expect sales similar to what was offered in the past. Many customers save up looking forward to one of the many sales events to purchase resources for their libraries. When those sales are not what is expected, then there is disappointment.
I have been using Logos for a long time (the 90's) and have seen some changes in pricing and marketing during those years as required by changing market conditions and relations with publishers. In the end, we are blessed with an abundance.
As for those that are critical of your post, I think they may have miss interpreted your tone in the same way you may have misinterpreted some of theirs. I try my best to be soft hearted and thick skinned as opposed to the opposite. However, if you review my posts you will find I have occasionally failed in that personal policy. Keep posting your thoughts...
God bless.
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Of course, Logos does not owe anyone a sale. Logos has sales for their benefit, namely, to increase sales and to move product that is not selling well.
We should not whine, and we should remember (and I say this from 42 years personal experience) that it is a professional hazard to always be tempted to lecture everyone on their attitudes. Indeed, that is largely what preachers do for a living, and it is seldom appreciated.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Sean said:
Thank you for showing us, from your superior vantage point, what we should and should not be thinking, feeling, and doing.
Do you have any more advice?
Sean, it seems that this post hurt you or offended you in some way. I'm quite sure the OP didn't mean to do that. However, this comment of yours is entirely unhelpful and not appropriate. It certainly is not becoming someone who describes himself as a "Theologian & Pastor."
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But I am sorry, point taken.
helpful discussion for me to see why people have reacted the way they have
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Disciple of Christ (doc) said:
We all know how the market works. But as long term customers we are giving Faithlife the respect of providing them with feedback of why we have become disolutioned and disengaged
I found this to be a good comment on the current situation. There are new customers obviously, but also long term customers who have seen trends...
I really enjoy the Logos program, and have been a loyal customer since L3. Much has changed since those days...
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PetahChristian said:
I have no idea how much FL needs to sell things for to be profitable, or how profitable they are.
Not current but the one I found first ....
Bob Pritchett said:What would a reasonable profit margin be? What profit margin does your friend think Logos has?
For what it's worth, I got our third-quarter financials earlier this week. For 2012 so far, the Logos profit margin was just about 0.38%. (Not 38%. Less than half of one percent.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Not current but the one I found first ....
Bob Pritchett said:What would a reasonable profit margin be? What profit margin does your friend think Logos has?
For what it's worth, I got our third-quarter financials earlier this week. For 2012 so far, the Logos profit margin was just about 0.38%. (Not 38%. Less than half of one percent.
Later in that same post, Bob explained that the reason for the low margin was development of Logos 5; he then added
[quote]I expect we'll end the year with solid single-digit profitability, and we've beaten that in the past.
I could not find the quote, but I think he said somewhere that the target margin was around 3-5%.
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Right now I'm absolutely overwhelmed with sales offers of all kinds. None of which I have the means to even consider. Fine by me.
The world needs the Savior not a sale.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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Ah, look at you! you even used alliteration 😜 (Savior, Sale).
But you are right, though, the world needs a savior not a sale; but then again as Logos users we wouldn't mind getting a sale on resources that can help us study the Savior 😁👌👍✌️️
DAL
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.38% could mean 10 million or 100 million.. He could pocked 5 million or 50 million. No one here knows the context.
Regardless, Bob is still richer than all of us. He is a businessman after all, not a average pastor/laymen like most ppl here.
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mike said:
.38% could mean 10 million or 100 million.. He could pocked 5 million or 50 million. No one here knows the context.
The context is, if you buy a Gold BP for $1400, then $5.32 of that sum is profit (which might or might not go into Bob's pocket). If you talk to support or a sales rep once, that profit is used up...
mike said:Regardless, Bob is still richer than all of us. He is a businessman after all, not a average pastor/laymen like most ppl here.
That's a very interesting thesis...
I know of pastors who own private jets, and I know of businessmen who severely struggle financially...
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Goodness, some somebodies need a lesson in capitalism. And maybe accounting.
Owning a company or part thereof (partnership, corporation, etc) doesn't mean you have money. It could be be up to its neck in debt, inches from bankruptcy, complete with a 5% profit. Similarly a company can have a loss and the owner own a palace. It all depends on how it's all structured, timing, etc.
So when Bob indicated a percent, it's meaningless. Absent the statements. Ergo the existance of CPA's (me), tax accountants, and yes, a new American president.
The bigger number that Logosians were paying for was Proclaim. And I assume another business soon to appear (I assume due to Logos being so sleepy).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I doubt 0.38% is the margin on particular products. More likely it is the profit margin in general once all expenses are deducted from revenue.
because if they are making $5 on a $1600 base package, as you say, they will not be able to pay the sales person.
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Andrew116 said:
I doubt 0.38% is the margin on particular products. More likely it is the profit margin in general once all expenses are deducted from revenue.
because if they are making $5 on a $1600 base package, as you say, they will not be able to pay the sales person.
If you calculate the profit margin for a particular product, you would always include those "indirect" expenses, otherwise the number would be meaningless.
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