My Big Concern about Logos future for ownership model
Source: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/133683/868990.aspx#868990Bob Pritchett said:But the future (of all software) is a different market: subscription. Transitioning is hard and messy, and it disrupts both how we are used to doing business and the expectations of existing customers. But if we don't find a way to the future, the business will disappear as we are unable to acquire new customers..
Bob, you were comparing Netflix, Prime, and other subscriptions before. Lets be fair and see what they offer:
Amazon Prime: Cost $99 per year. Benefits:
- Free 2 day shipping ($$ of savings. Try to ship without prime with 2 day shipping)
- FREE Same-Day Delivery in eligible zip codes
- Thousands of movies
- Thousands of shows
- Music: More than a million songs
- Deals and discounts and more....
Netflix: Cost US$ 7.99 US$ 9.99 US$ 11.99 per year. Benefits:
- Thousands of movies
- Thousands of shows
For Logos Now to be fair, please offer thousands of books free in membership at least. You are offering far less than those businesses who are using subscription.
If you would compare to Microsoft Office, Adobe, and etc, we did not invested thousands of dollars in library there, so you cant really compare with that model.
It is troubling me that spending thousands of dollars on Logos library ($2k per year average), to hear that you are leaning to a different market. Why should I spend money on Logos if you are doubting ownership model and taking away sales, and limiting other benefits to Logos ownership model costumers.
It is unfair to buy and pay for books much more than other platforms because you are saying that it takes money to do tags and etc, and not use that features because you need to have subscription to use it.
Here the troubling model I see where you are leaning to:
- Buy high cost books because they are super tagged BUT you cant benefit from those tags you paid for without subscription. Basically, suck it up, and use basic features
Bob, how would you feel to be a costumer at a company where you would pay extra for HD movie and getting only an option to use with some features SD player. Would you be a happy costumer, feeling well treated and not ripped off. In order to play HD movie you paid extra money for, you need to pay additionally monthly for the player subscription because it takes ongoing cost to maintain the player.
I really need clarification for ownership model costumers. Thank for your time!
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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I don't think FL could ever move to a subscription-only model, as too many customers want to own the books and/or features.
So, no one is losing out, because FL probably won't pull the plug on people who prefer to own.
FL gives customers buy/buy, buy/rent, rent/buy, and rent/rent (book/features) options. I think they are trying to meet demands for all types of customers, while preserving some revenue stream (since they make $0 from people who never upgrade from L4/L5/L6).
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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The comparison to Amazon and Netflix just doesn't work.
- They have massive customer bases -- effectively everyone. We sell to a very narrow market in comparison. Even if we sold to EVERY pastor in America that would only be 300,000 customers. (And we don't.) They can sell to 300 million people in America, etc.
- They're backed by investors that sustain incredible losses to buy market share. (Amazon was famously unprofitable for around 20 years!) Amazon also makes money by selling other stuff -- their media pricing buys customers for Prime, which gets them a cut of all your dry goods purchasing. We don't have that alternate revenue stream.
I am very open to discussing the option, and have repeatedly said we won't strand users. But we do need to navigate a complicated world with a smaller user base and no investor money to fund losses while we build market share. I appreciate the people like you who invest a lot each year, but there aren't that many of you! :-)
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There's no way Logos could afford to go subscription-only. Do you know how many users they would lose?
I mean, look at Adobe. Their products used to be the best of the best. Now they're just normal. Why? Subscription based. I don't think Faithlife would do what Adobe did anyway. Who would pay a fee to rent Logos or Verbum every month when they could just order paper books or on other sites?
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Bob,
thank you for quick reply, but it looks like my concern wasn't addressed. I am sorry for making it not clear enough. I would not be worried about the future of Logos for those who prefer ownership model if Logos Now would just have features which requires Faithlife servers, early access to future release, and for those who like to have subscription model. But from my observation you are pushing much further than that. You are taking away benefits from costumers who prefer ownership only and reward LN subscribers:
- you give less support to those who do not prefer LN subscription
- you cut the sale deals (from the surface it seems that LN get extra sales deals, but similar deals always were prior to LN, but now LN are benefiting them more)
I read all your previous replies and understand your concern that some potential customers are satisfied with their library and are not bringing a profit anymore. Those costumers were in asset category for you but now they are in liability. The reason I mentioned about Netflix and Prime because you used them before and I agree with you that Logos cannot give below $100 a year similar subscription benefits. But, at the same time, it is not right to slice the benefits from costumers who prefer ownership to make LN look more appealing. My big concern is that we who prefer ownership, our cake would be sliced so badly that we will have pretty much nothing left: inferior software, benefits, support and sale deals. If I personally prefer ownership model, why would I invest into something that becomes inferior, and as you quoted that you are transitioning away from it.
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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Wild Eagle said:
- you cut the sale deals (from the surface it seems that LN get extra sales deals, but similar deals always were prior to LN, but now LN are benefiting them more)
This is true, in the sense that 15% off for everyone used to be how it was, and now it's 10% off for non-LN and 15% off for LN.
Everyone now gets 10% off, and LN gets an extra 5% (instead of thinking that non-LN gets 5% less). It's not that Logos is taking a discount away from non-LN. They simply can't afford to do 15% for everyone any more, like they used to.
The 15% discounts are disappearing. I don't think subscription is to blame for that.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Ezra Miller said:
There's no way Logos could afford to go subscription-only. Do you know how many users they would lose?
Ezra, look at the direction where Faithlife is heading to. Yes they are moving to subscription-only.
PetahChristian said:I don't think FL could ever move to a subscription-only model, as too many customers want to own the books and/or features.
So, no one is losing out, because FL probably won't pull the plug on people who prefer to own.
FL gives customers buy/buy, buy/rent, rent/buy, and rent/rent (book/features) options. I think they are trying to meet demands for all types of customers, while preserving some revenue stream (since they make $0 from people who never upgrade from L4/L5/L6).
They are pulling the plug. They are cutting the benefits and support from people who prefer to own. I wish there would be buy/buy, buy/rent, rent/buy, and rent/rent options with same support, software, and benefits, but it is not so. Buy/Buy will have everything inferior to Rent/Rent. I dont know why, maybe it is marketing fault, but Bob is not optimistic that new users would cover the cost of old users. It is completely normal to see decline of revenue from older costumers, and more revenue from the new ones. But at Faithlife, something went off the balance. There seems to be more old costumers than the new ones.
Bob Pritchett said:If we go to subscription, there's an incentive to continue to improve and tune the existing product so that subscribers will continue.
The problem with our existing transactional model is that Logos 4 / 5 / 6 were 'all I needed' for many users. Yet our development costs, server maintenance, operating system compatibility, etc. continue as expenses. Maturing software becomes good enough, and over time people stop purchasing upgrades. (You may know someone on Microsoft Office 2007, for example. Or 2003.) But people expect patches, fixes, compatibility with their new mobile device, continued sync servers, etc.
That's the allure of subscription for the provider -- consistent revenue for ongoing expense... While I appreciate our long-time users (a lot!), more and more often I hear from someone who 'invested thousands in my library, so please fix this / help me / etc.' -- but whose last investment was 5+ years ago. (That didn't happen for the first five years...because math. :-) )
I get that if you invested thousands you may have all the books and functionality you need, and may even want the product to 'stop moving' so you can just master the tools you need each day. But if you want us to be here to update things for iOS 14 or Windows 12, we need to find a way to continue revenue.
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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Wild Eagle said:Ezra Miller said:
There's no way Logos could afford to go subscription-only. Do you know how many users they would lose?
Ezra, look at the direction where Faithlife is heading to. Yes they are moving to subscription-only.
Like Ezra said, it's not possible. They'd lose too many customers. Many people, me included, don't want to rent books, we want to own books.
As soon as they said, "You now are required to rent future books," I'd say, "I'm going to learn to be content with what I already own, thanks, and do without any more books."
Wild Eagle said:They are pulling the plug. They are cutting the benefits and support from people who prefer to own. I wish there would be buy/buy, buy/rent, rent/buy, and rent/rent options with same support, software, and benefits, but it is not so.
I think the misunderstanding is that people who own aren't getting better benefits.
LN is $90 a year. If you will save more than $90 by subscribing, then you can subscribe, just like Amazon Prime.
You can't expect to get the same (rental) subscription benefits (for free) as someone who pays extra for the privilege.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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PetahChristian said:
As soon as they said, "You now are required to rent future books," I'd say, "I'm going to learn to be content with what I already own, thanks, and do without any more books."
No, Faithlife will not do that. You will have option to own books but to rent software to read them. Your books to own are costing much more than other software because you are paying for the hundreds/thousands of tags but you will not benefit from them (even though you paid much higher for that book) unless you rent software. Thats the direction Faithlife is heading to and it concerns me a lot.
PetahChristian said:I think the misunderstanding is that people who own aren't getting better benefits...
You can't expect to get the same (rental) subscription benefits (for free) as someone who pays extra for the privilege.
I am not expecting to get LN benefits which requires Faithlife servers and early access to future release, but the access to use the tags which created a book at higher cost.
Lets say years from now, Faithlife made a new feature and it adds a new tag to the book. You pay for that because book will be more expensive for extra tags/labor. Someone will complain why this book is much more expensive than at other software, but he will get a reply that it cost more to Faithlife to put into production because of tags and new tags in this case. Bottom line, costumer pays for those tags because he purchases at higher price. But, in order to use those tags which he paid for, he will need to rent the features. So, he owns the books but rents the software.
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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I'm confused
In L6 I bought a Base but only in a certain Level (Gold?) I have all Features
In L7 I buy a Base and only from a certain Level (Bronze) I have all Features
I could also stay with my L6 and buy the whole new Features from Logos 7
So, what is the Problem?? I own all L7 with all the Features in my Base. If I want more I buy a HIgher Base OR buy the whole Feature Set (what was impossible with L6)
LN gives me L8 Features and the possibility to use all L7 Features without buying a Base. Yes there are a few Things you miss if you have just a Base...but dit you really need them?
So, if you buy a Base you have all Features you nee for your Books you own, if you buy a Book what is tagged for L8 Features you have to wait until L8 comes out. Again I don't understand the Problem...maby I'm to stupid
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Sascha John said:
I'm confused
You understand things perfectly. If people are happy with what they buy or rent, there's really no problem at all!
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Will Logos eventually go all the way to `subscription' only, and nothing else? That would be alarming to me... as I don't prefer `rent a software' style.
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Leo Wee Fah said:
Will Logos eventually go all the way to `subscription' only, and nothing else? That would be alarming to me... as I don't prefer `rent a software' style.
If they did, it would only affect new users anyway.
Existing users already own their libraries, and keep getting core engine updates.
Okay, we wouldn't be able to get any new (paid) features and resources, but actually, I'm quite content with what I already have, and could get used not to spend any money with FL any longer. [:P]
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If you're going to compare with Amazon, the closer comparison is Kindle Unlimited. For that you get access to 1 million titles for $9.99/month (more expensive than Logos Now).
However:
- Although you can choose from a million titles, you can only borrow 10 at a time.
- The vast majority of the books are bad books that won't sell. They're less valuable even that Faithlife's public domain 'fillers'. I'm currently in the middle of a trial of KU. I had 408 books on my 'to read' list that I don't currently own. Only five of them are available with Kindle Unlimited.
Frankly, if Amazon can't offer a decent ebook rental package, no-one can (for all the reasons Bob gave). The book market is not like the movie market. Perhaps that day will one day come, but it's not here yet.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Leo Wee Fah said:
Will Logos eventually go all the way to `subscription' only, and nothing else? That would be alarming to me... as I don't prefer `rent a software' style.
In my opinion, for all practical purposes this is impossible. Faithlife cannot confiscate what you own and nor would they want to. At the very least all current owners of resources have an engine that will search and navigate those resources for them. If they maintain an operating system that will run the engine - then the functionality is theirs in perpetuity.
Is Faithlife obliged to provide a free engine for Windows 15 or Mac OS 15... well that is debatable and would depend on what guarantees offered in the past could be dug out of the small print. I might suggest that even if such guarantees were found it would be un-Christian to hold them to them.
It may well be that for all intents and purposes Faithlife is moving towards a 'feature rich engine' for subscribers and a basic navigator for owners. I can't see a sensible market for renting libraries that would be silly from almost everyones point of view. The base libraries are stuffed with resources that are only useful for looking up quotations in context - unfortunately the current state of tagging makes even this use unreliable.
To my way of thinking professional should be aware that they need to pay for professional tools.
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Mark Barnes said:
The vast majority of the books are bad books that won't sell. They're less valuable even that Faithlife's public domain 'fillers'. I'm currently in the middle of a trial of KU. I had 408 books on my 'to read' list that I don't currently own. Only five of them are available with Kindle Unlimited.
Fully agree! That's the main thing that's immensely frustrating about Kindle. There's no curation. Amazon just pubishes every whatsoever meaningless crap through KDP.
That's why I don't spend any money on Kindle at all any more, unless absolutely necessary.
I'm not a big fan of subscription models like Logos Now, but KU actually still is a lot less value for money.
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Bob Pritchett said:
The comparison to Amazon and Netflix just doesn't work.
- They have massive customer bases -- effectively everyone. We sell to a very narrow market in comparison. Even if we sold to EVERY pastor in America that would only be 300,000 customers. (And we don't.) They can sell to 300 million people in America, etc.
- They're backed by investors that sustain incredible losses to buy market share. (Amazon was famously unprofitable for around 20 years!) Amazon also makes money by selling other stuff -- their media pricing buys customers for Prime, which gets them a cut of all your dry goods purchasing. We don't have that alternate revenue stream.
I am very open to discussing the option, and have repeatedly said we won't strand users. But we do need to navigate a complicated world with a smaller user base and no investor money to fund losses while we build market share. I appreciate the people like you who invest a lot each year, but there aren't that many of you! :-)
Thank you Bob I am satisfied with your explanation.
Blessings in Christ.
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Wild Eagle said:
I read all your previous replies and understand your concern that some potential customers are satisfied with their library and are not bringing a profit anymore. Those costumers were in asset category for you but now they are in liability.
Apparently I am in the small group that over the years invested heavily into FL. I am not investing heavily anymore, but not because I am content with my library. Rather, because I see what is going on. If those that invested heavily are only a small group, then they should have some kind of special status. The dilemma for those that invested heavily is that it appears to be that they are now considered a liability. Whether that is true or not, the appearance causes me to think in terms of jumping ship before it sinks, and enjoying what I have until that happens, purchasing now only very carefully in resources that would be helpful to my purposes.
If I had the sense that a ship is not slowly leaking (and that sense cannot be changed by Bob or anyone else writing something...it can only be changed over a long period of time and observation), then I would still be investing heavily.
Sad to think that a heavy investor may be considered a liability. Heavy investors are not interested in seeing their investment drained. While there are outlets for our thoughts and ideas, I do not think they are seriously considered. The business has grown, and some long term investors have the feeling of being a liability.
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Mark Barnes said:
If you're going to compare with Amazon, the closer comparison is Kindle Unlimited. For that you get access to 1 million titles for $9.99/month (more expensive than Logos Now).
I do regret that I compared Prime, Netflix with LN, because this is not my main concern, and it sidetracks posts from my real concern.
Sascha John said:So, if you buy a Base you have all Features you nee for your Books you own, if you buy a Book what is tagged for L8 Features you have to wait until L8 comes out. Again I don't understand the Problem...maby I'm to stupid
I don’t mind waiting L8 features, but what I am worried is if Faithlife will offer in the future lets say L10, full feature set. I am afraid, it will be free engine or subscription only.
Logos could add all full set features up to now (not datasets) to free engine and give no more enhanced options to ownership costumers. So, for me in order to use enhanced features in the feature, I would have only one option is to rent software in order to enjoy all new features.
Look, Faithlife already cutting prepub lowest price guarantee for ownership costumers. Logos already cutting sales as well, customer service ant etc. I don’t see a good future for those who want to own the software and not rent. Our cake is getting sliced.
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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Mark said:
The dilemma for those that invested heavily is that it appears to be that they are now considered a liability. Whether that is true or not, the appearance causes me to think in terms of jumping ship before it sinks, and enjoying what I have until that happens, purchasing now only very carefully in resources that would be helpful to my purposes.
If I had the sense that a ship is not slowly leaking (and that sense cannot be changed by Bob or anyone else writing something...it can only be changed over a long period of time and observation), then I would still be investing heavily.
Sad to think that a heavy investor may be considered a liability. Heavy investors are not interested in seeing their investment drained. While there are outlets for our thoughts and ideas, I do not think they are seriously considered. The business has grown, and some long term investors have the feeling of being a liability.
[Y] Well said, and thank you for bringing this thread on the track.
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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Wild Eagle said:
Look, Faithlife already cutting prepub lowest price guarantee for ownership costumers
But this was in response to a lot of feedback from many customers complaining about some of the outworking of that policy - and the announcement of the new policy seems to have been generally well received.
Maybe an indication of the many disparate views that people have around these questions.
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Graham Criddle said:Wild Eagle said:
Look, Faithlife already cutting prepub lowest price guarantee for ownership costumers
But this was in response to a lot of feedback from many customers complaining about some of the outworking of that policy - and the announcement of the new policy seems to have been generally well received.
Maybe an indication of the many disparate views that people have around these questions.
Graham, why would LN have 1 year of lowest price guarantee vs non LN costumers half year only? Both paid the same price for prepub, but one has more benefits, and another one is getting sliced with benefits in a half. It just shows how Faithlife is treating ownership costumers.
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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Wild Eagle said:
Graham, why would LN have 1 year of lowest price guarantee vs non LN costumers half year only? Both paid the same price for prepub, but one has more benefits, and another one is getting sliced with benefits in a half.
No one is getting their benefits cut in half. Everyone gets 6 months. Now members get an additional 6 months.
If you're going to not pay for Now, you can't complain that you don't get the extra benefit, or think that your benefit is only half as good as their benefit.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Mark said:
Sad to think that a heavy investor may be considered a liability. Heavy investors are not interested in seeing their investment drained. While there are outlets for our thoughts and ideas, I do not think they are seriously considered. The business has grown, and some long term investors have the feeling of being a liability.
I do not believe that Bob is saying he views heavy investors as a liability. He is saying that he is struggling to reconcile the ownership model that 90% of customers came into the product with against the new realities of the market. That happens in every business.
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PetahChristian said:
No one is getting their benefits cut in half. Everyone gets 6 months. Now members get an additional 6 months.
Come on PetahChristian, lets be real. I am not going to be fooled with "additional" wording, when Faithlife takes from everyone something and then gives back "additional" to LN. Look in reality, benefits, sales, features, costumer service is getting sliced.
If I had 100% of a pie, and Faithlife cut to 50% supposably to everyone but gives 50% back to LN, the outcome is : LN still owes 100% of a pie, but non LN's pie is sliced in a half.
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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For what it is worth I have invested in a Logos Library since my seminary days...which was a while back. I have very limited monetary resources invested into the product and plan to continue that practice due to the changing nature of e-books as a general matter. It also disturbs me, along with my confidence in FL, to see the company continually (imo) trying to stretch itself to reflect other companies in the technology market with "cutting edge" products, marketing, and subscription models. To my mind the endless reminders that FL is a business seeking profits leads to the only reasonable conclusion is that its ownership will ultimately sell this company at huge margins at some point in the future to my determent. I will continue to own and use two different bible products until the market plays itself out.
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Greg Corbin said:
I do not believe that Bob is saying he views heavy investors as a liability.
If heavy investors are not buying anymore, than they are liabilities to Bob, thats a reality and Bob states that.
Bob Pritchett said:While I appreciate our long-time users (a lot!), more and more often I hear from someone who 'invested thousands in my library, so please fix this / help me / etc.' -- but whose last investment was 5+ years ago. (That didn't happen for the first five years...because math. :-) )
I get that if you invested thousands you may have all the books and functionality you need, and may even want the product to 'stop moving' so you can just master the tools you need each day. But if you want us to be here to update things for iOS 14 or Windows 12, we need to find a way to continue revenue.
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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Wild Eagle said:Greg Corbin said:
I do not believe that Bob is saying he views heavy investors as a liability.
If heavy investors are not buying anymore, than they are liabilities to Bob, thats a reality and Bob states that.
Bob Pritchett said:While I appreciate our long-time users (a lot!), more and more often I hear from someone who 'invested thousands in my library, so please fix this / help me / etc.' -- but whose last investment was 5+ years ago. (That didn't happen for the first five years...because math. :-) )
I get that if you invested thousands you may have all the books and functionality you need, and may even want the product to 'stop moving' so you can just master the tools you need each day. But if you want us to be here to update things for iOS 14 or Windows 12, we need to find a way to continue revenue.
I may then be a double liability as I am long term but do not have a large library compared to others. It is large for me - for my budget, for my needs as a layman. I see less effort being put into purchasers as they, by %, decrease in the customer base to the point FL can say said purchasers are indeed a low % of customers.
As renting is pushed by FL, less new customers will buy big, giving FL a self-fulfilling reason to move further away from the purchase model.
I want my buy-model library to take me through to my death.
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Mark said:
Apparently I am in the small group that over the years invested heavily into FL.
It shouldn't matter how much or how long someone has invested.
There are customers living on a fixed income who can't afford to spend a lot on Logos books or Mobile Ed, but they're just as valuable as people who gave more out of their abundance.
I'm grateful that FL has been around all this time to develop the software and resources, and I'm sure Bob is grateful for all the customers who support(ed) the company by purchasing the software, whether they are new or long-term customers.
As for ownership models, God owns everything and everyone. As for the future, all that's going to matter for eternity is God, and the great gift He has given us. What should we really be concerned about, in the light of eternity?
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Just my two cents ...
I have invested thousands. It's taken a number of years. There are still many things on my wish list that I would like to have in my library that add up to thousands more. (Always looking for a sale to pick something up from the list. [:)])
The latest release of Verbum 7 libraries was another occasion to add some resources at a discounted, bundled price.
I like my Now membership with the most up-to-date features and preview resources with discounts for ownership if I so choose.
I like having access to my Mobile Ed courses streaming on the big screen through FaithLife TV. I can sit in my favorite chair with my laptop and do things as the instructor demonstrates and then start over and watch from end-to-end.
I'm hoping the whole arrangement keeps going and is a model that sustains FL operations.
[:)]
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Mark said:
Sad to think that a heavy investor may be considered a liability. Heavy investors are not interested in seeing their investment drained. While there are outlets for our thoughts and ideas, I do not think they are seriously considered. The business has grown, and some long term investors have the feeling of being a liability.
Mark ... maybe your future is worse than you think ... big-spender, LESS discounts ....
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I am concerned over the direction of FL and it's claim that an ownership model is not sustainable. Now it is true that it requires massive servers to do everything it does fully (mobile will virtually not function without them and many new features on the desktop need them). But these requirement for servers are built in by design. Most Bible software works just fine device only. I do not see Olivetree, Accordance or WordSearch moving to a subscription model. The argument to me sounds like someone talking about designing a ship with holes in it and then stating one needs to subscribe to pay for the pumps to keep it from sinking. If this is an unsustainable model perhaps you need to take a hard look at it and decide how to fix it before more people decide to jump ship. To be perfectly honest the direction towards subscription leaves me far less likely to desire to make only purchase in the FL world.
-Dan
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Dan Francis said:
I am concerned over the direction of FL and it's claim that an ownership model is not sustainable.
Can we all be clear about this please?
Bob has never said that an ownership model is not sustainable. He's said an ownership model is not sustainable on its own. That's an entirely different thing, and not understanding it means many people are worrying unnecessarily.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:Dan Francis said:
I am concerned over the direction of FL and it's claim that an ownership model is not sustainable.
Can we all be clear about this please?
Bob has never said that an ownership model is not sustainable. He's said an ownership model is not sustainable on its own. That's an entirely different thing, and not understanding it means many people are worrying unnecessarily.
I guess I fall into the heavy investor as well, given the thousands that I have spent over the past three years at Logos.
I have also become hesitant to put more money into owned resources after the clear priority that has been placed on the Logos Now subscription model over the licensed model. If the licensed model is truly not sustainable on its own, then I am concerned that we will see an increased de-emphasize on it. I have already see a visible slowdown in the Verbum brand that has me quite concern.
On the more positive side, I am still very happy with my use of Verbum and it is an important part of my daily activities. It is more a lack of good feeling about the future growth of the product that has me worried.
Agape,
Steve
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I think Bob would hurt himself before he intentionally hurt a customer.
Any time there have been issues (and there have been plenty) he's gone above and beyond in my view to make things right. Even when ultimately the fault turned out to be mine and not his. He made things right.
Ultimately I've spent more in Logos than I have on my motorcycle, car, and home (don't get too excited I've spent precious little on all three). Actually, I've spent on books almost as much as I've spent on my education at seminary.
I truly believe Bob has our best interests at heart, and will continue to operate in that fashion.
I don't think he sees big spenders as liabilities. I know he values the input of those of us who speak out through the forums. He's changed course a few times because we vocal minority (Eg forum users) spoke out strongly against something (bram stokers dracula, the faithlife dating service as two examples off the top of my head).
I don't have it book marked; but I seem to remember Bob saying he wouldn't get rid of the ownership model in favor of the subscription model, just that each model appeals to different customer bases.
When I bought in (the second time - logos 4) If there had been an opportunity to pay monthly for a curated list (even at 50$) I would likely have done so instead. However now, ten thousand dollars later (actually roughly ~18,000$), I am pretty much completely sold on the ownership model. I have been a now subscriber in the past, and I may subscribe again in the future. But no one is making me. Honestly, the 5% discount difference isn't enough for me to subscribe at this time, but thats mostly because I'm not making many big purchases these days (economy related more than anything). I see that as a short term situation. The church is growing, they're consistently paying their bills. Maybe when L8 comes out, I'll buy collectors
Until then I'm grateful for the library God has seen fit to bless me with. Grateful for an imperfect company that helps me (and the congregation through me) grow through the resources they have made available. I'm grateful its led by a man who by all appearances is a man of integrity and one who seeks to follow the Lord.
I don't have any plans to go anywhere else. To buy books in any of the lesser platforms, or do any of the other things some have mentioned.
What I will do - and what I suggest all of you do as well is pray for God to lead and direct Bob and the team at faithlife as they continue develop the company.
I know I am often quick to be critical when things don't go my way, and I don't want to be like that. I'm sure most of you don't either. Take a deep breath. Take Bob at his word. Take it to the Lord in prayer. L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Wild Eagle said:
Graham, why would LN have 1 year of lowest price guarantee vs non LN costumers half year only? Both paid the same price for prepub, but one has more benefits, and another one is getting sliced with benefits in a half. It just shows how Faithlife is treating ownership costumers.
The main point about the price guarantee is the option to allow sales prices on previous pre pub products, not to give benefits.
When put into practice, it means that titles can be on sale one year after they've left pre pub. The benefit only applies if FL lets something slip through unintentionally.
No complaints about this policy please. It serves a far greater benefit than occasional refunds (which might never happen anyway).
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Jan Krohn said:
The main point about the price guarantee is the option to allow sales prices on previous pre pub products, not to give benefits.
When put into practice, it means that titles can be on sale one year after they've left pre pub. The benefit only applies if FL lets something slip through unintentionally.
No complaints about this policy please. It serves a far greater benefit than occasional refunds (which might never happen anyway).
I dont have complain about prepub 1 year policy. I love it because it helps to benefit the sales from other publishers. What I dont like about this policy is "LN have 1 year of lowest price guarantee vs non LN costumers half year only? Both paid the same price for prepub, but one has more benefits, and another one is getting sliced with benefits in a half. It just shows how Faithlife is treating ownership costumers." If LN and not LN costumers would both under 1 year, then I wouldn't raise prepub policy in this thread.
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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I have an idea.
Bob, I see your predicament.
I might be missing something (please tell me, I'm interested!) but it seems to me that it would help to expand your customer base.
This should be possible since a tiny fraction of (even just English-speaking) Christians use Logos. In my church alone, we have 2000 people and I'm aware of only 2 or 3 people who use Logos. We have new Christians all the time, as well as people growing up in the church hitting adulthood all the time. So there are loads of potential customers.
The vast majority of the people I've just mentioned are very dedicated to learning and teaching the Bible well. Some 200 or so are Bible Study leaders, another 50 are youth group leaders. Having used Logos myself, I can see the benefits it would have for them!
However, since they are lay-leaders they are not likely to spend big $$$ in one go. Seeing a price tag of $500 is a major deterrent.
BUT once they are in the software, enjoying it, and seeing the benefits, then it's likely they would become regular purchasers of things here and there. That's what happened to me. Started with a small thing, then bought more.
And here's the major obstacle I see in Logos attracting new customers: the starter packages have nothing to attract a new buyer.
If you are already sold on the value of Logos and have invested the big $$$ already, then you look at the higher packages and see some things you like. But the potential new buyers I'm thinking of simply will not look at those packages. I have considered showing them the starter package, but in all honesty there's hardly anything that useful in there.
My strategy (FWWIW) would be to offer a genuinely good deal on genuinely good starters-level resources.
If Logos did that, I would without hesitation recommend every single youth group leader buy it if they can. The sweet spot for pricing seems to be under $250. The sort of thing that can be saved up for in a few weeks, or asked for as a birthday present.
My strategy would be essentially to offer something so good that any serious lay church member or youth leader is tempted, at a price they can afford. Loss-lead if you have to, because once you have people in the door at an entry-level, finding the program really useful, then those people will continue to pay. For example every term, our church points out helpful books / commentaries to match up with the teaching series. If those are available in Logos, people could buy them there and integrate.
All the features that Logos offers (the linking of books etc) that they advertise so well ('every book makes all your other books more valuable') only come into play once someone has enough of a package to get them going.
A suggested package: (note - minimal filler. In my experience filler confuses the new person, obscuring the resources that they will actually want)
Bible texts
- ESV $10
- NIV $10
- KJV $10
- Lexham Greek $0
Dictionaries
- New Bible Dictionary $40
- ISBE (the new one) $130
Commentaries - Tyndale set $225
- BST New Testament $320
- Calvin’s commentaries $150
- Matthew Henry’s complete $20
Systematic theology - Grudem’s systematic theology 40
Lexicons - Thayer’s Greek 36
- BDB (abridged) Hebrew 0
$991 value
$250 cost (could offer it with FFS included for extra cost and also a rent-the-features version)
If that is unachievable, the package would still work with either BST or Tyndale removed (but not both removed). I have tried to create a broad package of resources I wish every youth group leader had on their shelf.
The key for the youth group leader to be tempted: it has to be cheaper in Logos than it would be to go out and buy those resources.
If this sort of package existed, I think Logos would see a lot more people invest.
As long as the minimum spend to get something usable is $900, you will struggle to get new users.
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I saw that FL used the American Express slogan, "Membership has its privileges" on the Logos home screen to promote an LN discount.
I can't understand though why people would grumble about LN benefits. First of all, the annual cost is only $99! Second, FL didn't have to give LN members any benefits at all. The additional savings were all added well after LN was rolled out, so the truth is FL sweetened the pot and we got those extra benefits for free.
When FL gives us something for free, we shouldn't complain.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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PetahChristian said:
There are customers living on a fixed income who can't afford to spend a lot on Logos books or Mobile Ed, but they're just as valuable as people who gave more out of their abundance.
I'm grateful that FL has been around all this time to develop the software and resources
This causes me to believe you have misunderstood this thread. No one that I am aware on this thread has implied that customers on fixed income who cannot afford to spend a lot are not valuable.
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Andrew116 said:
If this sort of package existed, I think Logos would see a lot more people invest.
As long as the minimum spend to get something usable is $900, you will struggle to get new users.
I do agree that when people do come on board, and do discover how valuable that the software is, that they'll spend more down the road, likely more than they envisioned.
You described my situation. I was using Olive Tree, and the $295 price to switch to L6 Starter was all I wanted to spend at the time. I didn't understand how much it was missing, or what I couldn't do with it.
FL threw in the Pulpit Commentary Set for free, as it happened to be the current offer for L6 buyers, at the time.
I then signed up for the free 30-day challenge, and discovered all the features that the course covered, which I had no access to. So I bought the L6 feature set, and a couple lexicons.
Is Logos expensive? More than people initially realize. Is it worth it? Yes, but people have to spend time discovering that, and it is necessary to have the resources and features that portray it in its best light.
Did I have to buy additional books? Yes. But I've spent far more since that point, and have gotten past the initial sticker shock.
From L6 to L7, I think L7 was a big step forward. You can buy Bronze instead of Gold to get the full feature set. FL already lowered the cost, in a sense, by providing the features in a less expensive package, and, as you pointed out, you can rent them instead of owning them.
If I knew then what I now now, I'd have made different L6 choices, but you learn from your mistakes [:^)]
In general, I'd like to think that the church membership Mobile Ed videos will get more people interested in Logos, but getting people to spend enough to be really happy with the program might be challenging.
As for ownership, I'm very happy with what I've been able to buy and own (but I'm also a happy LN member). I can't imagine not being an LN member, since the benefits outweigh the cost.
Outside the lack of dynamic pricing for WBC, and some Mobile Ed "resource no longer available" issues, my experience has been fairly positive. Bob takes the time to enter into dialogs with us, and answers emails, which is more interaction than many CEOs would have.
Are there some things I wish FL would improve (with the web site and pricing)? Yes. But as far as ownership goes, I am thankful for my library and the software. Expecting additional Logos "ownership" benefits would be unreasonable and unrealistic, and hurt FL's profits.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Wild Eagle said:
If heavy investors are not buying anymore, than they are liabilities to Bob, thats a reality and Bob states that.
This really is not reading into the reasons for why some heavy investors are not buying anymore, the purpose this thread seems to have. I would happily invest more. I really like the program and use it very often. It has been a great blessing to me. And for that reason, I have invested a lot over the years. I, like others, want to see FL grow and succeed and have a long future. I, like others, have seen the business model of the past as being a good model. I, like others, realize that businesses make mistakes as the years go on as well as make good decisions. And I, .like others apparently, are greatly concerned about decisions that have been made and are being made and are not sure whether the model is the right way to go for heavy investors. It may be a really good model for light investors. And I realize that a business may drop heavy investors, seeing them as a liability. I get all that. And that is why I and apparently others, have invested less than in the past. It is quite possible that while we invest less than in the past, that we are still investing more than the average customer. I am glad that FL has had a record of listening and responding to customer concerns. I am encouraged by many decisions made, and very disappointed by other decisions made. As FL is able to make their own business decisions, so customers are able to make their decisions to purchase, support or not.
As I see this thread, it was started with a real concern. I hope Bob and others at FL are able to read past the posts that are only reactions to comments in order to see the real concern and know how to engage those that really care about the company and may perhaps see things from a fresh or different perspective. I would not call such people liabilities, though I understand that others, including FL employees, may.
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Mark said:PetahChristian said:
There are customers living on a fixed income who can't afford to spend a lot on Logos books or Mobile Ed, but they're just as valuable as people who gave more out of their abundance.
I'm grateful that FL has been around all this time to develop the software and resources
This causes me to believe you have misunderstood this thread. No one that I am aware on this thread has implied that customers on fixed income who cannot afford to spend a lot are not valuable.
It's not that others are less valuable than the heavy, long-term investors. It's that the big investors apparently are less valued now compared to the amount they invested.
When people mention that they are big spenders, but feel they are losing out ("liability," "drained") or aren't being treated as well (as they deserve) than someone who spent/owns less, it seems that big spenders feel like others are getting better benefits than them.
My point was that it shouldn't matter how much someone spends. I'd like to think that FL values everyone equally, as we all should.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Andrew116 said:
If Logos did that, I would without hesitation recommend every single youth group leader buy it if they can. The sweet spot for pricing seems to be under $250. The sort of thing that can be saved up for in a few weeks, or asked for as a birthday present.
You can get close to this price with what is currently available.
From an earlier thread - https://community.logos.com/forums/p/133568/867900.aspx#867900 - you can get the following for free
The links below are to free products:
- https://www.logos.com/product/46767/logos-6-core-engine - the core Logos 6 engine
- https://www.logos.com/product/55923/lexham-intro-collection - Faithlife's own core collection comprising a Bible, Study Bible, Daily Devotional, Dictionary and a Greek New Testament
- https://www.logos.com/product/45437/crucial-questions-series are 20 booklets looking at some questions of doctrine
Adding in a couple of Bibles (as per your suggestion) for $20 and the Tyndale commentary set for $225 gives you a reasonable starting place for under $250.
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PetahChristian said:
When people mention that they are big spenders
Well, I am probably wrong, but I really think you have misunderstood.
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Mark Barnes said:
If you're going to compare with Amazon, the closer comparison is Kindle Unlimited. For that you get access to 1 million titles for $9.99/month (more expensive than Logos Now).
However:
- Although you can choose from a million titles, you can only borrow 10 at a time.
- The vast majority of the books are bad books that won't sell. They're less valuable even that Faithlife's public domain 'fillers'. I'm currently in the middle of a trial of KU. I had 408 books on my 'to read' list that I don't currently own. Only five of them are available with Kindle Unlimited.
Frankly, if Amazon can't offer a decent ebook rental package, no-one can (for all the reasons Bob gave). The book market is not like the movie market. Perhaps that day will one day come, but it's not here yet.
I think it depends on what kind of books you are looking for. A while back I opened a new list for KU books and on Black Friday bought KU for $7 a month. I'm finding a large number of books to read and not one is public domain. But, I'm not looking for theology books. That may be the difference.
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Faithlife is in a unique position, because FL can't afford to go subscription-only...yet. So they are going both non-sub and sub. So this helps feed two markets--the ones that want cutting edge features and other cool stuff, and those of us who are fine with paying $300+ every couple of years and not paying anything again until we deem it necessary.
I have a blog that I've kind of put off to the side as I'm not proficient in HTML. So I wanted to get Dreamweaver. I thought that Adobe had an option to buy Dreamweaver, not rent. But Adobe doesn't offer that option. So, they lost my business. FL is avoiding that mistake by offering Logos Now as an option.
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Graham Criddle said:
You can get close to this price with what is currently available.
Thanks Graham, and thanks to FL for this.
The dictionary seems great, and the Greek text is wonderful. But there are a number of drawbacks to this:
- no datasets so the guides don't work. This isn't a great way to show someone the power of Logos
- no systematic theology (the Sproul books, while great, don't substitute)
- no Gk Lexicon (which will help the lay person with word studies etc)
- few commentaries (Tyndales on its own isn't great. Add Calvin and Matthew Henry, and you have a much better looking set)
I'm suggesting putting together a starter package that has really good utility and value to the entry-level lay person. This would mean giving them the starter data sets to show the power of the engine.
So I'm suggesting loss-leading to get people in the door with something of really good value and utility. More than is available in that free set, good though it is. Basically the core of this proposal is: make the starter package actually a good starting place.
This thread (on spending habits) shows that the first year's spend was a fraction of what they would later spend down the track. Get people to spend a relatively small amount this year on something they find useful, and they will come back.
FWIW Accordance nailed this in June this year, with a $100 set that included:
- Commentaries:
- 49 vol Tyndale Commentary set,
- Matthew Henry's Complete Commentary,
- Calvin's Commentaries on the Whole Bible,
- Bibles: ESV, NIV, HCSB, NKJV, KJV, NASB, The Message, NET with notes
- Dictionaries: some basic ones (weakness)
- Systematic Theologies: Berhkoff, Hodge (slight weakness)
- History: Sketches of Church History, Foxe's Martyrs
- Basic Gk and Hb lexicons
The deal was so good and the usefulness so obvious that 2 of the people I told about it bought it. At least 1 of them has gone on to purchase a further commentary set in that ecosystem. The price was right and the value was there. Both of them are uni students and lay leaders (youth group leaders) who are fairly likely to go on to vocational ministry in the future. Though on limited budgets, they are now predisposed to future investment in Accordance rather than Logos. All of this is to say - the importance of having an attractive starter package! (Which Logos does not have at the moment)
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Andrew116 said:
The dictionary seems great, and the Greek text is wonderful. But there are a number of drawbacks to this:
- no datasets so the guides don't work. This isn't a great way to show someone the power of Logos
- no systematic theology (the Sproul books, while great, don't substitute)
- no Gk Lexicon (which will help the lay person with word studies etc)
- few commentaries (Tyndales on its own isn't great. Add Calvin and Matthew Henry, and you have a much better looking set)
What you are saying here is that you want a basic package that meets your understanding of Bible study. I, in contrast, would not be expecting a basic package to have any Greek language capabilities and would consider a solid one volume commentary satisfactory with some series a nice addition. On the other hand, for a small group study I can equip participants with Logos/Verbum for $75-100. I suspect that there are 3 or 4 basic understandings of lay Bible study that would require separate base packages. Why? in simple diagrams
Anglican's basic image is Scripture-Tradition-Reason for reading scripture
Methodist add experience
Catholics use the same 4 with a image indicating a difference in the modeling of the relationship between the 4.
Orthodox have a less intellectual take on the same elements
This model - unidentified denomination(s) adds emotion
Lutherans take a more confessional approach for which I have yet to find a model.
Then there is is bible only model.Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Thats helpful!
So I guess you could build this into the existing denominational streams.
And what I've been saying is effectively, the entry level stream is not hitting my tribe (reformed evangelical)
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