I'm upset with the new Logos 7.3 about information
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Last Statement (have to clean up my Kitchen) From Buisness Side People with a Mark like red Crosss are not the Second Class. They are the First Class! The Company will do anything for them to let them get a new Libary [;)]
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Sascha John said:
a red Cross in my Software normaly tells me, that there is something broken or does'nt work anymore. So just remoove this red Cross would help
+1 [Y] for removing X; mock up of an empty circle shows something is lacking:
For customers that have free engine without any library purchase, then empty circle (or gauge) is more accurate.
Alternate circle idea is a gauge to show amount of available functionality: empty lacks a lot while Now membership is full. Gauge level for Cloud depends on subscription level.
For library, Full could be "Gem" equivalent (number of resources) => Suggestion: "Gem" superset of Base Packages that would be true for a number of forum posters that have many thousands of resources. If have only have free engine and free resources, then Library gauge is nearly empty (and searches can lack results). Portfolio package could be 3/4 full, which is substantial.
For this library, gauges show a number of features are unavailable plus number of resources in library could be noticeably increased.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Phil, Phil, Phil .... you're using Bob-ian logic. I'm completely up to date with no Now subscription. And I'm completely up to date with no L4, L5, L6, or L7 package ... and yes, I do have a fairly expensive library contra you guy's marketing.
You 'could' have put the latest software ship in parens like many, if indeed you were worried.
Now, personally, I've been laughing, because you guys turned a good user request (what do I have??) into a marketing gimmick.
I don't think so, but for Bible software, it sounds like revenues are suffering more than the rumors are. Looks like.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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KS4J, I like very much your brilliant proposal [Y][Y]
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I like the informative view you have provided. Makes it so I do not have to call to ask. Clear. It is not telling something I do not expect and if it was I would know there was an issue. The links lead me right to where I need to go to improve my investment. No animations. Yes, I like it.
Apparently I need to get updated soon!
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
First, let me say that this is not the final design for this feature. We'd like to show more information than "pre-Logos 7." Ideally, we'd show your latest library's version and level. But we need a new web service to do that. We also realize that the binary green check-mark and red ex don't do justice to the nuance here. We'll give some more thought on how to modify this.
I'm not upset by the current choice, but if I was looking to improve it, I might suggest:
- With regard to Features, I suggest:
- A red icon for those who have never bought a base package.
- An amber icon for those who own Feature Sets from L4 through L6 (or L7 starter).
- A green icon for those who have L7 feature set, or Logos Now.
- With regard to Library
- I'm not sure how helpful the current system is at all. Users who have L4 Portfolio have a better library than L7 Starter, so why should the L4 user have a red cross?
- If you want to colour-code it, it should be done on library size, but that would be decisive, and of little help.
- So, I would suggest removing this, and replacing it with an additional licencing panel (like the datasets list), that listed all your base packages — although I'm not personally convinced that a base package is necessarily more valuable than a bundle or large collection...
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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I agree. I know what I have...what I want...what I need. At times when dealing with FL regarding sales/etc I feel like I am dealing with a car dealership. For the record...I have been with Logos/FL since Version 2.0.
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At least in Logos 7 this is tucked away behind Help>About. I'd be really concerned if they did what Adobe has done.
In Adobe Reader, by default the "Tools" pane (read extra-fee required features) are visibly displayed and in your face. You can choose to hide it, which I have done.
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Mark Barnes said:
An amber icon for those who own Feature Sets from L4 through L6 (or L7 starter).
[Y] You own some features, but are missing other features. I think that's very sensible.
Currently, you have to understand what datasets are required for a tool to work. Users shouldn't need to know those details.
It would be helpful if people could easily see which tools would be new to them, so they could know what they'd need to buy/rent to get access to the tool(s) they want.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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I intend to write one or more posts later contributing to this thread in the hopes of improving the information display, but for lack of time at the moment, I simply want to thank Phil Gons and FaithLife for improving what they've done so far and for actively responding to customer feedback. [Y][Y]
I would also like to publicly note that I attribute to Phil and the rest the best of intentions in what they're doing here.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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What Faithlife is missing here: When a Customer has his or her needs met, it is all green for him or her, irrespective of whether how Faithlife wants to think about it.
Faithlife wanting to forcefully label a customer as 'lacking' is offensive. Simple state what the customer has without labelling it As lacking.
it is sad that Faithlife can trust its customers to use its sophisticated software but cannot trust them them to figure out they need a better set of features or library except by nagging them this way.
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I am confused, I am only showing Logos 7.2
why have I not got Logos 7.3?
P A[:^)]
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I have some real sympathy for FaithLife on this one. Designing good, intuitive user interfaces is hard - especially when you're going for a "read at a glance" dashboard display. The red X was a poor choice because it rubs lots of people the wrong way, and I suspect FaithLife is fully aware of that now. But the idea of putting a quick summary of the features you've purchased next to the software version number is not a bad one. If nothing else, it could make some customer service calls easier.
I don't think giving a library "level" makes as much sense, because of all the complications that have been described, but many of us do seem to take a degree of satisfaction from either the level of base package we've purchased or the total number of books we've accumulated. Perhaps one simple thing that might help would be to list, in addition to the latest library version and level, the total number of resources for a user.
Or perhaps FaithLife could simply not list any information about the size of our libraries, and save us from the temptation of pride [;)]
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P A said:
why have I not got Logos 7.3?
Try the command "update now"
If that doesn't get you the update I suggest you start a new thread as your issue could get lost here.
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For red X items, it should flash and sound an alarm to make it even more obvious that you are missing out and need to spend more...[:P]
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I'm just glad it doesn't push me towards buying a LN subscription [:P]
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David Bailey said:
For red X items, it should flash and sound an alarm to make it even more obvious that you are missing out and need to spend more...
. . . and perhaps a link to apply for a new credit card [:O]
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Ahhhhh - now I feel better.
Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
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Steve said:
I posted in a different thread before I saw this one ... thought it more appropriate here ....
I would also mention a more insignificant, but curious issue on the Info Panel header ... I use the Verbum-branded version of the software (v7), am a Verbum Now member, and I have the Verbum 7 Platinum Library. Everything displays the Verbum branding except for the library. It says Logos 7. Seems like there may be a different level of precision in the display than there used to be. I recall seeing Verbum Capstone in that header information prior to the v7 upgrade this fall. Not sure what it said before this update.
Thanks for the report, Steve. I believe this supposed to say "Verbum 7 Library". We'll get this fixed up.
Thank you for fixing it already in SR 1.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Steve said:
I posted in a different thread before I saw this one ... thought it more appropriate here ....
I would also mention a more insignificant, but curious issue on the Info Panel header ... I use the Verbum-branded version of the software (v7), am a Verbum Now member, and I have the Verbum 7 Platinum Library. Everything displays the Verbum branding except for the library. It says Logos 7. Seems like there may be a different level of precision in the display than there used to be. I recall seeing Verbum Capstone in that header information prior to the v7 upgrade this fall. Not sure what it said before this update.
This should be fixed in 7.3 SR-1 (7.3.0.0041)
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Phil I appreciate the time you have put into your response but i fear you have missed the pointed. A red cross sends a negative message.
Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:Disciple of Christ (doc) said:Once again Faithlife treats its customer with no respect putting a big red cross against them because they haven't bought a Logos 7 library is appalling.
You're reading intent into the symbols that wasn't there. The question is whether the user is up to date in three different categories. The ✓ = yes; the x = no. That’s it. This is a common convention for communicating yes and no with symbols. Do you feel the symbols are less offensive in the software category? If the symbols were replaced with corresponding words, would you feel the same way? Or is it the fact that we’re raising the question of being up to date at all? I'm not discounting your feelings. I've already indicated earlier in this thread that we'll reconsider the symbols. (Do you have a proposal on a different set of symbols?) But there's really no disrespect intended. We're simply conveying facts here. There's no need to be embarrassed or feel diminished if you see an x. The benefit of the x (the concept, not necessarily the symbol) is that it might alert a user to something they didn't know before. This isn't aimed at those who frequent the forums and already have a pretty nuanced understanding of these categories. It's aimed at the majority of users who don't really understand the differences between the free engine, the feature set, and the library.
Phil a red cross is a negative symbol. For months you have been telling users its ok not to purchase a Logos 7 library, its ok to just purchase a feature set or a Logos Now Subscription with out library and then you come out with an image that sends a negative message to the customer. I really don't know how you can think it is anything but a negative message to the customer. It sends the message to the customer something is wrong. This is in conflict with your previous message a Logos 7 library is not required. Simply not helpful,in fact it is a feel bad message - fell bad because you don't have a Logos 7 library - you are missing out, you better buy a Logos 7 library so you don't miss out. There is not need to convey anything to the customer about their choice of whether to purchase a Logos 7 library based on your previous message to customers a Logos 7 library purchase is a personal choice.
Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:Disciple of Christ (doc) said:The real truth is coming out in this comment, you just want to intrude further with your marketing. We've given you a big fail mark against your account because you haven't spent enough money with us recently but if you'd like us to remove it, here's how you can do that by spending more money this way. You are going beyond the helpful diagnostic information that Randy discusses. This goes to the heart of a marketing team driven by worldly focussed marketing practices - lets tell the customers who haven' spent enough money with us they are bad - a big red cross on their software about page should do make that clear to them, and then once we got them feeling bad, lets provide a way for them to fix their failure by directing them how to spend more money with us.I wonder what Martin Luther would think.
That's just not the case. We're trying to provide helpful information so users can make informed decisions. Yes, we want to make sales. But we want to make sales because we believe we have a lot of value to provide to Bible students that's worth their money, and we want to do so in a transparent way that serves them by helping them make informed decisions. I made it clear in my previous comment that this will all be optional. If you prefer not to see missing functionality, you can turn it off globally. There's absolutely no requirement to spend money to turn off the upsell.
Phil as I have already saidi in response to your previous comments up until now you have told customers a Logos 7 library is an personal and optional choice so then why now send a negative message to customers who haven't purchased a Logos 7 library. What you are doing is not helpful to the customer, its simply further confusing the message you have been communicating to the customer and trying to tell them they haven't made the right purchase choice by not buying a Logos 7 library - a read cross is a negative message - I would have thought that is a cultural universal in the West at least but I am not an expert so maybe I am wrong but in my experience it is a negative message, a chastisement even for getting something wrong.
Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:Disciple of Christ (doc) said:Phil you used to be a customer like one of us, what has happened to you that you know think treating customers this way is an appropriate way to engage them and is somehow helpful to them. Your customer base includes academics, pastors and theological students yet you seem to think treating them like children and red inking them is they way to communicate with them. Really disappointing stuff once again from the Faithlife Design and Marketing Teams.
I don't think I've changed. I'm still a champion for customers,
Phil I am sorry but whatever else you might do, when you are supportive of sending a very negative message like this to customers who have not purchased a Logos 7 Library after previously telling them they don't need to I am not convinced you are a customer advocate. A customer advocate would straight away recognise the issue I raise - you have previously told customers they don't need to purchase a Logos 7 library so why are we putting a red cross against that point when we told them is was not necessary.
Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:One thing that may be missing here is intended audience and context. We're aiming primarily at the tens of thousands of people who download our free engine and haven't bought a base package or in many cases spent any money with us yet. What we've done historically is hide features for which users don't have a license. IMO, that's not a particularly pro-user behavior.
Phil we are not talking about features of the software we are talking about the fact you are making a negative judgment against the customer for not purchasing a Logos 7 library when previously you have told them they don't need to purchase one.
Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:If you have ideas on how we can do that better, we’d love to hear them.
Phil you can do it better by not using red crosse, these send a negative, judgemental message about what a customer might have decided not to purchase because they are trying to be a good steward of their money. Until you remove this negative marker you are going to alienate a bunch of customers you say you are trying to 'help'.
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Mike, I have been growing silently more and more disillusioned with Logos in General. Which is pretty sad since the software, in General is quite awesome, and I have been with it now for over 15 years, but the more I look the more I see many types of manipulative sales practice, charging for every byte of extra value that used to come really standard in the Library, the exorbitant pricing of books that are actually at least 10-15% over what I would pay for the physical product in my hands. There used to be solid reasons to stick solidly with Logos, now with an increasing in quality and ability of other software, (though not of course up to Logos Standards), there are now fewer reasons for me to stick with Logos, I mean why pay over what a book is worth just to have it on my computer?
Logos is a business, yes I know that, but pre-eminently they are a Christian Business who are peddling God's word, I am not against them making money, but I am against them bringing their price point that is out of the reach of many who sincerely want to study God's word, and I would have though in today's climate of growing apostasy and general ignorance of the Word of God, making the price point competitive and accessible would have been, I would have thought, a solid priority.
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Philana R. Crouch said:Steve said:
I posted in a different thread before I saw this one ... thought it more appropriate here ....
I would also mention a more insignificant, but curious issue on the Info Panel header ... I use the Verbum-branded version of the software (v7), am a Verbum Now member, and I have the Verbum 7 Platinum Library. Everything displays the Verbum branding except for the library. It says Logos 7. Seems like there may be a different level of precision in the display than there used to be. I recall seeing Verbum Capstone in that header information prior to the v7 upgrade this fall. Not sure what it said before this update.
This should be fixed in 7.3 SR-1 (7.3.0.0041)
Nice. Thanks [:)]
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SineNomine said:
I simply want to thank Phil Gons and FaithLife for improving what they've done so far and for actively responding to customer feedback.
I would also like to publicly note that I attribute to Phil and the rest the best of intentions in what they're doing here.
Ditto! [:)]
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I noticed yesterday that 7.3 SR-1 beach balled when I clicked about info on my Mac. I had to restart. I think this layer of functionality needs some clean up. Otherwise, I'm going to avoid it like the plague. I have 16GB of RAM so whatever it's supposed to do isn't what I'd expect on the stable channel
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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Disciple of Christ (doc) said:
Phil a red cross is a negative symbol. For months you have been telling users its ok not to purchase a Logos 7 library, its ok to just purchase a feature set or a Logos Now Subscription with out library and then you come out with an image that sends a negative message to the customer. I really don't know how you can think it is anything but a negative message to the customer. It sends the message to the customer something is wrong.
How a message is received is not the same as the intention of the sender. The forums here prove that on a regular basis.
Disciple of Christ (doc) said:Phil we are not talking about features of the software we are talking about the fact you are making a negative judgment against the customer for not purchasing a Logos 7 library when previously you have told them they don't need to purchase one.
No, Phil is not "making a negative judgment against the customer for not purchasing a Logos 7 library". Rather, Phil is--so far--allowing a message to be sent that you interpret as conveying a negative judgment against customers who have not yet purchased Logos 7 libraries. There is a significant difference.
Merry Christmas!
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Mark Bernard said:
I mean why pay over what a book is worth just to have it on my computer?
In my own case, many of the books I use in Verbum would be very difficult for me to use either at all or in an efficient manner in print. They would also be very difficult to transport, especially in my pocket.
Mark Bernard said:I would have though in today's climate of growing apostasy and general ignorance of the Word of God, making the price point competitive and accessible would have been, I would have thought, a solid priority.
So is staying in business.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Mark Bernard said:
Logos is a business, yes I know that, but pre-eminently they are a Christian Business who are peddling God's word, I am not against them making money, but I am against them bringing their price point that is out of the reach of many who sincerely want to study God's word, and I would have though in today's climate of growing apostasy and general ignorance of the Word of God, making the price point competitive and accessible would have been, I would have thought, a solid priority. [my emphasis]
Mark, keep in mind Logos' competitors can offer books at lower prices, offer minister discounts, and stay in business. Logos can't. It's not an issue of the Church needing all the help they can get ... Logos is peddling as hard as they can ... datasets, need more datasets (definitely not 'more bell').
Yes, it's Christmas Eve and Santa may slide off our roof with all this Arizona snow.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Include the entire context of the paragraph when responding, I said I'm not against them making making money, but they need to make their product accessible. Included with that is the understanding that they need to make money, ergo staying in business. Don't take a comment out of its literary context.
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Mark Bernard said:
I mean why pay over what a book is worth just to have it on my computer?
At the risk of sounding pedantic, I should point out that when an adult, not compelled by force, purchases a product for a price, that is what it's worth.
macOS (Logos Pro - Beta) | Android 13 (Logos Stable)
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