John 14:16
As a new Logos user I thought it would be interesting to see if I could verify a couple things I heard about the words translated "another comforter" or "another helper."
The first is the Greek translated another "allos" is alleged to be another of the same kind or another identical to the first, verses, the other Greek word translated another "heteros" being another of a different kind.
The second is the word or title translated comforter or helper "Paraclete" from EDNT is the title used for the tutors or private teachers hired by the wealthy.
Using the Exegetical Guide I found some information but would not say it was definitive, and it wasn't supportive.
I have heard that may times those that go on about meaning of the Greek were the worst students. Is it that the speakers were errant in making these statements or have I not turned over the right rocks?
For background my under graduate is in Chemical Engineering and I have an MBA to go with it. Neither curriculum studies Greek.
Thanks
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Ken Gould said:
As a new Logos user I thought it would be interesting to see if I could verify a couple things I heard about the words translated "another comforter" or "another helper."
Welcome [:D]
These forums focus on using software and resources by Faithlife: e.g. Logos, Verbum, Noet, mobile apps, Vyrso, ...
Christian Discourse has a sub-forum for Bible Questions => http://christiandiscourse.com/category/bible-questions
Ken Gould said:The first is the Greek translated another "allos" is alleged to be another of the same kind or another identical to the first, verses, the other Greek word translated another "heteros" being another of a different kind.
The second is the word or title translated comforter or helper "Paraclete" from EDNT is the title used for the tutors or private teachers hired by the wealthy.
Thankful for United Bible Society Handbooks => UBS Handbook Series Old & New Testament Collection (55 vols.) that have cross cultural translation insights
My favorite Logos and Verbum feature is visual filter highlighting so can "see" range of Greek verbal expression, which can be combined with discourse analysis and precept (inductive) highlighting. Logos wiki has => Examples of visual filters
Since Greek spelling reflects grammatical usage, words can be placed for emphasis: e.g. another Advocate, ἄλλον παράκλητον
When Tab focus is on a commentary, clicking "+" is a quick way to open another commentary that has verse within that commentary's range. InterVarsity Press (IVP) publishes Tyndale Commentary set => Tyndale Commentaries (49 vols.) that has a longer discussion about Paraklētos
Exegetical Guide is one way to open lexicons:
NIDNTTE => New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology and Exegesis (5 vols.)
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Ken Gould said:
As a new Logos user I thought it would be interesting to see if I could verify a couple things I heard about the words translated "another comforter" or "another helper."
Also can search library for word(s) within milestone of John 14;16
(paraclete,paraklete,advocate,comforter,counselor,helper) WITHIN {Milestone <John 14:16>}
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Thanks for the help.
I tried cutting and pasting your milestone search and it didn't work. So where do I find information on the purpose and syntax required for milestone searches?
It appears although I purchased the Gold Logos package most of the resources you demonstrated aren't in my package.
Thank you for pointing me to a more appropriate forum for my question.
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Ken Gould said:
I tried cutting and pasting your milestone search and it didn't work.
Did you run a Bible Search or a Basic Search? You need to be using a Basic Search for this
So where do I find information on the purpose and syntax required for milestone searches?
Try:
- https://wiki.logos.com/Search_HELP#Milestone
- https://www.logos.com/training/logos6/milestone-search
- Help File entry
Ken Gould said:It appears although I purchased the Gold Logos package most of the resources you demonstrated aren't in my package.
That is highly likely. KS4J has built up quite a significant library over time.
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Ken, your question is quite apropo to a forum such as this. Basically, how is 'meaning' derived? And the issue is language in general ... your chemical engineering uses extremely complex words to force 'meaning'.
Keeping to Logos, a few years back, Logos developed a 'sense' lexicon ... if you have Gold, you have it. It was an attempt to assign 'meaning' (or sense) to a specific use, since words and combinations can have demonstrably variable meanings. And lexicons like BDAG do the same, listing out meanings per verse usage.
The problem is 'how valid'? In the Logos library, there's little to assist. Mainly because the multiple meanings already locked in multiple theologies .... your example is good. The Montanists, within just a couple living generations of the writing, used your passage and the main-liners squealed. No, no!
Have you explored the sense lexicon?
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Anther approach is to see how John uses the different terms for "other" in his gospel - does he seem to make a distinction between them?
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The sense lexicon came up and I called myself looking at it. Is there more to it than comes up on the Word by Word Exegetical Guide?
"In the Logos library, there's little to assist. Mainly because the multiple meanings already locked in multiple theologies ...."
This statement intrigues me. Are you saying that Logos is better at investigating various theologies than investigating claims about the culture when the Bible writers lived?
I am interested in investigating the basis and understanding that produced the theologies. For as a child I attended religious schools where we studied the Old Testament in the odd years and the New Testament and Church History in the even years. This education turned me into an atheist for 20 years.
Thanks,
Ken
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Regarding the sense lexicon, you can open it directly from Tools >> References >> BSL. The portion of interest is on the left, to view the meaning variation, especially where both hebrew and greek are represented. The right-side is pretty, but irrelevant (my opinion).
My reference to theologies, not available meanings, 'is as it is'. Generally writers are committed to a tradition-view, before doing their analysis.
The forum has much expertise in many areas. Mine is the use of neural nets to determine what a given author 'could' have chosen to express meaning, and then to predict his behavior, and presumably any redaction where error rates are exceeded. So, my interest in your question.
Regarding tracking down theologies, you can get a 'whiff' by searching theology + historical (Logos.com). Unfortunately, most are about a list of famous guys, with not much else in-between.. And tremendous empty space.
My recommendation since you're well read, is first write down what's in the text (NT) without regard to later beliefs. Then, step by step, compare to each successive writer ... you'll be surprised ... apostolic fathers, church father (key ones), then the reformation and restoration. I've done this. You'll quickly see the problem in meaning extraction. Worth your 20 years. I wish Logos had a resource that did this, but 'not'.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Ken Gould said:
This statement intrigues me. Are you saying that Logos is better at investigating various theologies than investigating claims about the culture when the Bible writers lived?Denise said:In the Logos library, there's little to assist. Mainly because the multiple meanings already locked in multiple theologies
Theologies and Culture can be researched using Logos by searching different collections (sets) of resources:
Results depend on library resources. Logos wiki => Example Collections
Thankful for visual filter highlighting so can "see"range of Greek verbal expression in English and Greek along with Discourse Analysis plus Precepts.
Thankful can test everything and hold on to what is good. Logos wiki => Examples of visual filters
Thankful for many friendly forum discussions where have learned a lot plus have a lot to learn.
Graham Criddle said:Ken Gould said:It appears although I purchased the Gold Logos package most of the resources you demonstrated aren't in my package.
That is highly likely. KS4J has built up quite a significant library over time.
Thankful for previous income that enabled purchase of Logos 6 Collector's Edition plus Denominational base packages. Currently dreaming of Logos 7 "Gem" expansion => Suggestion: "Gem" superset of Base Packages Thankful for digital library with many diverse view points, which can be quickly searched for comparison and contrast along with being Thankful that the human authors are not physically present in the same living room, which avoids passionate disagreements.
How to use Logos and Verbum to research John 14:16 is appropriate for this forum, which could include linguistics too. Theological discussion about John 14:16 meaning is better elsewhere, which includes Christian Discourse => http://christiandiscourse.com Noted during early search results that scholars disagree about exact meaning so humanly know agreement is not feasible in a forum discussion about using resources and software from Faithlife.
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