After waiting patiently after the Master Journal Bundle 2.1+ came out - not a lot has happened.
Where was the frequent release programme we were expecting.
Shalom
I was surprised to see my name on the list as I really didn't participate very much in a helpful way. My first purchase of journals was Master 2.1 because it was on sale and seemed like a good value. I didn't purchase Master 3.1 because I hadn't digested much of 2.1 and then 4.1 came out fairly shortly thereafter, so I pre-ordered that. There isn't all that much difference between 3.1 and 4.1, but I'm conflicted between availability and value. I should probably have my sales rep give me a DP between 3.1 and 4.1 to see what the numbers are. I'm also a little reluctant to purchase 3.1 until FL settles the discussions that are currently going on. If I had to choose today, I would vote on minimal tagging and quicker availability. Lower cost would be a plus. My priorities are 1. availability, 2. cost, 3. tagging. If I could have it quickly and cheaply, I could forgo tagging. But, that's just me.
Phil: if you put Master 3.1 on sale, which is available now, I think a lot of people would buy it.
https://www.logos.com/product/147726/master-journal-bundle-31
About 80 people have participated in the discussion over the last two years, spanning 582 posts and 30 pages. About 20 people have posted more than 5 times.
You forgot to mention that this thread has been viewed over 300,000 times! I know I've viewed it many times in hopes of some answers without posting. Maybe the 80 of us are the only ones concerned, but 300,000 views does suggest otherwise.
You forgot to mention that this thread has been viewed over 300,000 times! I know I've viewed it many times in hopes of some answers without posting.
[Y]
If engagement in this thread is a proxy for interest in journal resources, it may illustrate one of the challenges we face. About 80 people have participated in the discussion over the last two years, spanning 582 posts and 30 pages. About 20 people have posted more than 5 times. I'm not suggesting there isn't interest beyond this group (I know there is; our Pre-Pub numbers demonstrate that). But I was a little surprised to learn that there's a relatively small group of folks who are really engaged in the journals conversation. I don't think we should conclude too much from this, but I thought it was an interesting observation worth passing along.
If engagement in this thread is a proxy for interest in journal resources, it may illustrate one of the challenges we face.
I'm not suggesting there isn't interest beyond this group (I know there is; our Pre-Pub numbers demonstrate that). But I was a little surprised to learn that there's a relatively small group of folks who are really engaged in the journals conversation.
I don't think we should conclude too much from this, but I thought it was an interesting observation worth passing along.
Question and feedback for Phil...
Question: Should we keep the journal prepubs active on our Logos accounts active so you can gauge purchase interest, or should we cancel them until you decide your journal plans moving forward? I have Galaxie and Master 4.1 on pre-pub.
Feedback: You're about to attend one of the largest gatherings of scholars shortly. Why not use this opportunity at this year's ETS/SBL to interact with scholars, students, universities, etc., and ask about their journal interests/needs in Logos? It'd be another avenue you're already attending to get some solid feedback about journals from the people who use them the most in addition to this forum thread, surveys, video chats, etc (all which you can also use). Many journal users likely don't have a ton of time to read/interact on the forums (I'm mainly doing it because I know the value of journals). Being in the middle of a major conference with a flock of scholars would give you a great avenue to get feedback on how to best move forward with journals.
This seems like an excellent suggestion . . .
Feedback: You're about to attend one of the largest gatherings of scholars shortly. Why not use this opportunity at this year's ETS/SBL to interact with scholars, students, universities, etc., and ask about their journal interests/needs in Logos? It'd be another avenue you're already attending to get some solid feedback about journals from the people who use them the most in addition to this forum thread, surveys, video chats, etc (all which you can also use). Many journal users likely don't have a ton of time to read/interact on the forums (I'm mainly doing it because I know the value of journals). Being in the middle of a major conference with a flock of scholars would give you a great avenue to get feedback on how to best move forward with journals. This seems like an excellent suggestion . . .
Good feedback, but how many would be willing to invest in Logos just to have jourmals? How many of them are already using Logos but are not interested in the journals due to the fact that they are cheaper with the competition or as the chart shows, only a handful are interested in journals?
WS had, at one point, a nice bundle of the theological journal library for $99 (Publisher is Galaxie) compared to Logos’s over $1K. Even at WS regular price of $699 is still cheaper and the quality is just as great. So being realistic, journals are turning out to be not so popular as some might think.
Me, a good few selected journals are fine. Plus, I own a bunch with the competition I even have many I may not even get to read in my life time.
So...sorry to break it to you guys, but the CARTA curse may be rubbing off on the journals too.
DAL
Feedback: You're about to attend one of the largest gatherings of scholars shortly. Why not use this opportunity at this year's ETS/SBL to interact with scholars, students, universities, etc., and ask about their journal interests/needs in Logos? It'd be another avenue you're already attending to get some solid feedback about journals from the people who use them the most in addition to this forum thread, surveys, video chats, etc (all which you can also use). Many journal users likely don't have a ton of time to read/interact on the forums (I'm mainly doing it because I know the value of journals). Being in the middle of a major conference with a flock of scholars would give you a great avenue to get feedback on how to best move forward with journals. This seems like an excellent suggestion . . . Good feedback, but how many would be willing to invest in Logos just to have jourmals? How many of them are already using Logos but are not interested in the journals due to the fact that they are cheaper with the competition or as the chart shows, only a handful are interested in journals? WS had, at one point, a nice bundle of the theological journal library for $99 (Publisher is Galaxie) compared to Logos’s over $1K. Even at WS regular price of $699 is still cheaper and the quality is just as great. So being realistic, journals are turning out to be not so popular as some might think. Me, a good few selected journals are fine. Plus, I own a bunch with the competition I even have many I may not even get to read in my life time. So...sorry to break it to you guys, but the CARTA curse may be rubbing off on the journals too. DAL
In terms of getting the journals in Logos (even just the Galaxie journals), it's true that I don't have to get them in Logos to easily get access to them. I have a Galaxie subscription, plus my seminary library has access to any other journals I'd need outside of Galaxie.
Coupled with the fact that I use a citation manager for my citations (so Logos-generated bibliographies aren't as crucial anymore) and the fact that I didn't heavily use the additional {Journal Article} tagging and Journals guide access, one may wonder why I would want journals in Logos.
Here's why...
With any other platform I could search journals in (Galaxie database, WORDsearch, Accordance, my seminary library, etc.), no matter how much I enjoy those other platforms, I cannot easily perform one of the searches I mentioned above: combining a Scripture reference with a word in the same search (example: <Bible = Genesis 2:18> NEAR death).
This one-stop search is something I can ONLY do in Logos. Any other platform requires running more than one search, then sorting out the results.
This kind of search I can do with the journals in the Logos engine in any format Logos wishes to deliver them, even going back to having Galaxie producing them and adding no additional tagging that Logos wanted to add.
Another observation...
Themilios journal is one journal still up-to-date in Logos. Each new release, a new journal is ready around the time the journal is released to the web and PDF. Plus Themilios updates are free with the coupon code.
I know Themilios is one volume every so often versus a bulk of journals (like what's in Galaxie), but how come Themilios is continually being up-to-date with releases in Logos around the same time it goes to the web and PDF, and the updates are even free with a coupon code, with Logos essentially making nothing off the releases?
... So...sorry to break it to you guys, but the CARTA curse may be rubbing off on the journals too. DAL
... So...sorry to break it to you guys, but the CARTA curse may be rubbing off on the journals too.
Oh my. I was afraid the curse might spread. Next thing, Old Testament criticism authors might begin demanding their books be reproduced correctly.
Has anyone attempted to figure out how much of Master 3.1 and/or Master 4.1 are included in any of the L8 Base Packages. It looks like quite a few. Before the L8 announcement, I got this answer from my FL rep.
If I purchased https://www.logos.com/product/147726/master-journal-bundle-31 at $216.99... What would my DP be for https://www.logos.com/product/154052/master-journal-bundle-41 ? It's now $233.65.
The price I am seeing with my dynamic pricing tool is $70.60. That will be the DP price with the LIVE (i.e., full) pricing and not the pre-order pricing.
I'm guessing the DP at a 40% pre-pub discount would be $42. I'm not sure what the L8 BP inclusions will do to these prices.
Has anyone attempted to figure out how much of Master 3.1 and/or Master 4.1 are included in any of the L8 Base Packages. It looks like quite a few. Before the L8 announcement, I got this answer from my FL rep. If I purchased https://www.logos.com/product/147726/master-journal-bundle-31 at $216.99... What would my DP be for https://www.logos.com/product/154052/master-journal-bundle-41 ? It's now $233.65. The price I am seeing with my dynamic pricing tool is $70.60. That will be the DP price with the LIVE (i.e., full) pricing and not the pre-order pricing. I'm guessing the DP at a 40% pre-pub discount would be $42. I'm not sure what the L8 BP inclusions will do to these prices.
The answers are:
https://www.logos.com/product/147726/master-journal-bundle-31 is now $101.69.
https://www.logos.com/product/154052/master-journal-bundle-41 is now $147.00.
I'm still guessing the DP at a 40% pre-pub discount would be around $42.
The point is that if you want 4.1, most of it is available now by buying 3.1 and then waiting.
My DP on Galaxie is $294.89. Not very enticing.
https://www.logos.com/product/156048/galaxies-theological-journal-library-vols-1-20
I had 3.1 and have ordered 4.1 probably from the beginning when it posted. Yesterday I purchased the L8 Gold upgrade and I got 0 new journals.
Yea, other than Christianity Today and a couple of journals that were in 2.1, there are no "new" journals in the v8 packages.
If engagement in this thread is a proxy for interest in journal resources, it may illustrate one of the challenges we face. About 80 people have participated in the discussion over the last two years, spanning 582 posts and 30 pages. About 20 people have posted more than 5 times.
I'd be interested in comparing those stats with similar threads about other product lines, if there are any comparable ones. Come to think of it, this thread probably compares favourably to some of the product line forums.
I would also note that it's not clear (to people glancing through the forums) from the title of this thread what most of these posts have been about.
In my opinion, Logos placed theological journals on the back burner to work on Logos 8. Now that it has been released, I hope there is progress. If not, I may subscribe to Galaxie.
Dear Phil, I don't think your assessment of people's interest in journals should be based on this thread. Most sensible people have already realised that faithlife is not offering a useful way of engaging with journals, except back issues, at great expense. The additional benefits are not sufficient to warrant the cost for anyone who is part of an institution that provides atlas (i.e. most people that need journals).
My guess is that those of us who are here, are still around because we are enthusiastic Logos users who would prefer to engage with journals in the software.
The thing is that much of the purpose of journals is to be participating in the current debate and accessing the latest thinking and research.
The only model that is going to make sense and cause reasonable buy in is if you mirror the real world model. An ownership subscription, with back issues available in small enough bundles that people can afford them.
Many journals are quarterly based on the pricing you already charge it works out that about $5-10 a month should cover new issues. If you offer that, and get them to us as they are published, you have a very compelling product! When I bought in to Logos journals at great expense, it was with the promise of regular, even quarterly updates at a reasonable price. Themelios is the only journal I have from this year and that is free! I'm confident you can do better. The market is there, you just need to break into it. Currently it is hard not to feel cheated... I would have done much better subscribing to another provider. Please prove my investment worthy and not a mistake!
bump
See Phil Gons' post from a few pages back: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/136193/1001741.aspx#1001741
What I'd like to ask is that you give us at least few weeks to engage more fully in this conversation. We're in an exceptionally busy season right now, and several of us will be out of the office soon for ETS/SBL and then be out for Thanksgiving. So the soonest we could give this issue any serious consideration would be the final week of November. . I'm open to hosting a video chat with those who wish you participate in late November or early December. Can we agree on that as a good next step?
What I'd like to ask is that you give us at least few weeks to engage more fully in this conversation. We're in an exceptionally busy season right now, and several of us will be out of the office soon for ETS/SBL and then be out for Thanksgiving. So the soonest we could give this issue any serious consideration would be the final week of November.
.
I'm open to hosting a video chat with those who wish you participate in late November or early December. Can we agree on that as a good next step?
I have 4.1 master on pre-pub but haven't posted in this thread yet. I think having current academic journals in Logos is absolutely critical to its viability as a serious research tool, especially for anyone who doesn't have access to them via their work.
I'm not suggesting there isn't interest beyond this group (I know there is; our Pre-Pub numbers demonstrate that). But I was a little surprised to learn that there's a relatively small group of folks who are really engaged in the journals conversation. I don't think we should conclude too much from this, but I thought it was an interesting observation worth passing along.
I stop by and check this thread regularly without leaving any comment. Particularly because I don't think it is useful on these forums to bang on and on about the same thing... once you say something, it's sometimes good to let it lie a bit. Also, my requirement for journals tapered off a few years after we felt the sting of the parting of ways with Galaxie. Since then I have not invested much in journals, but that is changing again... and I am signed up for a pre-pub right now.
So I am not sure what it takes to register interest in this topic, but for a premier Bible software program I have to believe that there are others like me that want and need a robust journal subscription. Actually, if there had been an annual subscription to get journals automatically updated, I probably would have kept receiving them all this time. Personally, this is of more interest to me than some of the other things that FL has rolled out in the last few years... but now I am starting to repeat what I wrote back in the beginning of this very long thread. Sorry! [:P]
the right set of journals
I have a bias, but the Galaxie theological library was not a bad little library considering. The current master collection has a lot of stuff that is so broad I don't know if I could ever use it. That being said, I have been impressed how Logos has grown over the years to leverage all this data and can present it in a productive way to allow one to sift out the nuggets. One suggestion would be for the 'Journals' section to have subsections like Ancient Literature section to get journals listed according to category. That would require more tagging I would guess, which is probably not what you want to hear!
I wonder if something like a "21st Century Journals" bundle would be an easier sell... buyers get exclusively (relatively) recent journal articles without forking out anywhere near as much money as MJB requires. Then, if they want back issues...
👍🏽
If we never see 4.1 bundles clear pre-pub is this the end of journals?
What a horrible idea!
They were able to sneak a few into some of the Logos 8 BPs. We may have to wait until L9 to see a few more. A Socialist themed BP would let the many pay for the wants of the few. It would have to be disguised to the many.
Sorry for the delay on providing an update on journals. With the launch of Logos 8, the holidays, some business travel, two funerals, and sickness, it's been an extra busy few months.
I think we've come up with an economical way to produce Galaxie's Theological Journal Library, vols. 1–20 while still ensuring that it'll show up in the Journals guide section (and be searchable using our journal label searching). It won't have all the markup we do to most resources, but it should deliver the essential value journal users are looking for and ensure we're not blocked by funding production costs. We should know in a few weeks if our approach will work. If it does, we shouldn't be too far away from shipping this product. This should also allow us not to have to run future versions of this product through Pre-Pub and wait for funding but instead either take pre-orders for a few weeks before shipping it or just ship and sell it.
We're also looking at the cost and funding levels for our four journal bundles (MJB, TJB, AJB, and TJLUB) and hope to have an update on them soon. It looks like the funding might be close enough to put them into production in the near future and then ship them not long after that. But we'll know more in a couple of weeks.
I'll follow up when I have more information to share. Thanks for your patience.
We should know in a few weeks if our approach will work. If it does, we shouldn't be too far away from shipping this product.
I think this may be a good compromise. I really hope this strategy works.
This is great news if you can make it work and I sure hope that is the case.
Sorry for the delay on providing an update on journals. With the launch of Logos 8, the holidays, some business travel, two funerals, and sickness, it's been an extra busy few months. I think we've come up with an economical way to produce Galaxie's Theological Journal Library, vols. 1–20 while still ensuring that it'll show up in the Journals guide section (and be searchable using our journal label searching). It won't have all the markup we do to most resources, but it should deliver the essential value journal users are looking for and ensure we're not blocked by funding production costs. We should know in a few weeks if our approach will work. If it does, we shouldn't be too far away from shipping this product. This should also allow us not to have to run future versions of this product through Pre-Pub and wait for funding but instead either take pre-orders for a few weeks before shipping it or just ship and sell it. We're also looking at the cost and funding levels for our four journal bundles (MJB, TJB, AJB, and TJLUB) and hope to have an update on them soon. It looks like the funding might be close enough to put them into production in the near future and then ship them not long after that. But we'll know more in a couple of weeks. I'll follow up when I have more information to share. Thanks for your patience.
Thank you Phil. If this gets me Jets I'm on board!
With the launch of Logos 8, the holidays, some business travel, two funerals, and sickness, it's been an extra busy few months.
Praying Aaronic Blessing with God's Love [:D]
Keep Smiling [:)]
Mr Gons
Have you put much thought into the possibility of community sourcing? Maybe people in the logos community could help you tag in exchange for a discount/credit?
Yes. One of the things we discussed was doing less tagging on certain resources, but investing in tooling that would allow the community to crowd-source tagging that matters to them.
Looking forward to it. For those who have Galaxie and MJB on Pre-Pub, we need to keep those pre-pubs active to ensure we're ready to go when they ship, correct?
Thanks Phil! Excited for the possibilities! I totally understand the fight with so much on onesoplate!
One of the things we discussed was doing less tagging on certain resources, but investing in tooling that would allow the community to crowd-source tagging that matters to them.
Phil, as I'm sure you're aware, crowd-sourced tagging has been requested for at least 9 years now. In his public response to my proposal from ~4 years ago, Eli mentioned that this was "before its time". Please make this a priority, especially in light of your response here:
I’ve outlined these (among other) priorities for 2019: Significantly grow our digital book catalog. Make new books available at the same time as their print and Kindle release. Make them discoverable from a single store. Make them available for individual purchase, not just in collections. Sell them at competitive prices.
I’ve outlined these (among other) priorities for 2019:
ote user="Phil Gons (Faithlife)"] I’ve outlined these (among other) priorities for 2019: Significantly grow our digital book catalog. Make new books available at the same time as their print and Kindle release. Make them discoverable from a single store. Make them available for individual purchase, not just in collections. Sell them at competitive prices.
ote user="Phil Gons (Faithlife)"]
I would add:
6. List where book not available. Both Logos editions, and ebooks
Appreciate your consideration of this, Phil.
Thanks, Phil, for the update!
One of the things we discussed was doing less tagging on certain resources, but investing in tooling that would allow the community to crowd-source tagging that matters to them. Phil, as I'm sure you're aware, crowd-sourced tagging has been requested for at least 9 years now. In his public response to my proposal from ~4 years ago, Eli mentioned that this was "before its time". Please make this a priority
Phil, as I'm sure you're aware, crowd-sourced tagging has been requested for at least 9 years now. In his public response to my proposal from ~4 years ago, Eli mentioned that this was "before its time". Please make this a priority
Yes please.
Have you put much thought into the possibility of community sourcing? Maybe people in the logos community could help you tag in exchange for a discount/credit? Yes. One of the things we discussed was doing less tagging on certain resources, but investing in tooling that would allow the community to crowd-source tagging that matters to them.
Phil, community crowd-sourcing is a great idea for tagging more than the essential Logos tagging needed to sell your products. If you're looking for people to do this, please count me in.
This is better news - and I would certainly be a fan of getting any extra tagging done by the community.
My only slight concern would be to have a 'quality control' aspect to that - also possibly community based. Something like the 'Wikipedia' editor approach. However I am clearly not the person to speak to the practicality of this as an approach.
shalom
Did this video chat ever take place?
Not that I am aware of
Any updates?
Sorry for the delay on providing an update on journals. With the launch of Logos 8, the holidays, some business travel, two funerals, and sickness, it's been an extra busy few months. I think we've come up with an economical way to produce Galaxie's Theological Journal Library, vols. 1–20 while still ensuring that it'll show up in the Journals guide section (and be searchable using our journal label searching). It won't have all the markup we do to most resources, but it should deliver the essential value journal users are looking for and ensure we're not blocked by funding production costs. We should know in a few weeks if our approach will work. If it does, we shouldn't be too far away from shipping this product. This should also allow us not to have to run future versions of this product through Pre-Pub and wait for funding but instead either take pre-orders for a few weeks before shipping it or just ship and sell it. We're also looking at the cost and funding levels for our four journal bundles (MJB, TJB, AJB, and TJLUB) and hope to have an update on them soon. It looks like the funding might be close enough to put them into production in the near future and then ship them not long after that. But we'll know more in a couple of weeks. Any updates? I'll follow up when I have more information to share. Thanks for your patience.
Kind of off topic but relates to journals...
Question for Phil to ponder...
I found out my seminary pays over $200,000 per year just for access to the eBooks and journal articles it supplies to its students (that's not counting their print books, etc.). This is for access to EBSCO, ProQuest, etc., albeit with a search interface not as powerful as Logos.
My question for Phil is:
With Faithlife's history and relationships with digital publishers, Bible study platforms, and now getting into larger bundles such as Faithlife Equip, how hard would it be for Faithlife to:
Just reviewing my growing prepubs, I notice, with any luck, the Journals prepub will soon be a year old. I'm assuming a few more kick-the-can Phil posts.
I'm always too humorous, and I minor-ly updated the new journals feature description (in parens) ..., that'd be from Logos 6 four years ago:
The new Journals section lets you search the journals collections you own for Bible references and topics. With this new tool you can run a Passage Guide or Sermon Starter Guide report and get the most concise and up-to-date (or maybe not) recent information from your journals collections then organize your results by journal or by year.
Put the finishing touches on your next research paper with insight from a scholarly article, discover what’s driving today’s (or a few years ago) leading theological discussions, and get the most up-to-date (or maybe not) biblical research from some of the most respected pastors and scholars. Search your journals with ease with the new Journals Section.
So today I was searching for an article by S. Lewis Johnson, Jr and found it in The Masters Seminary Journal Vol 20 dated 2009. But alas, in Logos, we only have up to vol 18.
Sigh...
Keep us not in suspense...is there any chance that Vetus Testamentum and Novum Testamentum will be added to Logos? Just to be clear, wanting the journals, the supplements, and the congresses. Been asking for these for at least a decade...have THOUSANDS of references to these two journals in my library.
My question for Phil is: With Faithlife's history and relationships with digital publishers, Bible study platforms, and now getting into larger bundles such as Faithlife Equip, how hard would it be for Faithlife to: Offer a subscription bundle of eBooks, Bible study resources, and journal articles to Bible colleges and seminaries With content that is similar to what they currently access in EBSCO and ProQuest With a more powerful search interface (similar to how Logos has built the Logos web app) With full citation exporting for the major academic styles Plus the ability to offer discounted access for students to Logos libraries for Bible colleges and students who subscribe At a most cost-effective price than what Bible colleges and seminaries pay today?
I made a similar inquiry/request a few years back. Unfortunately, I don't think what I really want will ever happen, which is to have most of this stuff hyperlinked in Logos.
Seeing so much flack about Journals in this thread leaves me spinning my head when this prepub to update existing journals is not moving.
https://www.logos.com/product/154052/master-journal-bundle-41
