Why reinstating the monthly subscription would be useful (among other reasons)

So, I hear about the Lemma in Passage feature. I am interested in it for a specific project. Otherwise, I don't want nor need Logos Now. If it were available monthly, I could take it for a month and use it for my project then be done with it (I don't see this as something I would need that often otherwise). But I am not going to pay a subscription to a year just for that.

So, this is a suggestion to reinstate it. People will want to check out new features with a month subscription and might be hooked into getting a longer subscription, but nothing of the kind will happen if there is no flexibility in the solutions available.

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Comments

Christian Villapando

Thank you very much Francis for presenting a great argument for bringing back the monthly feature for Logos Now. All I can say is that the main reason for the change was due to two new additions that were added to Logos Now

Being a member to Logos now allows you to have access to a 10% & 20% discount for Logos 7 Libraries and Feature Sets
Access to all of Logos 7 Features (and new features to be released on newer version)

Because of this change unfortunately a monthly subscription isn't feasible as a member could just subscribe to Logos Now for a month, and take advantage of the discount then let their subscription lapse for the month. So therefore to make it worthwhile for both parties we changed this to annual so that we can offer a great discount for anyone who wants to take advantage of purchasing a Logos 7 Library and Feature Set and have access to all the great features that Logos Now provides. I hope this answers your question from our perspective on the change.

Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/884573#Comment_884573

Thanks for the reply and explanation, Christian. It does not solve the problems it can present for some users that have highlighted, but I can understand FL's perspective on the matter.

Mike Binks

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/884583#Comment_884583

Can I rephrase your problem Francis?

It seems, from your explanation, that the cost of the feature you wish to use is not really dependent on the length of access.

The 'month' or 'year' access is incidental to something that you only perceive using once.

So Logos offers this facility for $100 dollars and you are actually offering $10 dollars.

Can you, cost effectively, accomplish what you want for less than $100?

Is it worth doing at all for $100?

Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/884748#Comment_884748

Sure the question is legitimate. It is also a readjustment of expectation of cost for access to the feature (and others in LN): before I could get access to the feature for one month and $10, but now must dish out $100 to have any access to it although it also allows me access for a year.

For some of us, it is not just a matter of whether it is worth it. It can be more like can I afford $10 to have access to this feature now? Answer: yes. Can I afford $100 now? Answer: no. Do I want to pay fees to do monthly payments? Answer: no. Consequently, am I getting the feature and is FL getting a sale? Answers: no and no.

But there are many more important problems in the world, so let's move on.

David Ames

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/884573#Comment_884573

Being a member to Logos now allows you to have access to a 10% & 20% discount for Logos 7 Libraries and Feature Sets

Access to all of Logos 7 Features (and new features to be released on newer version)

Because of this change unfortunately a monthly subscription isn't feasible as a member could just subscribe to Logos Now for a month, and take advantage of the discount then let their subscription lapse for the month.

So just offer the discounts to those that have a full year subscription - maybe but:

But there are many more important problems in the world, so let's move on.

Kevin A. Purcell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/884573#Comment_884573

Thank you very much Francis for presenting a great argument for bringing back the monthly feature for Logos Now. All I can say is that the main reason for the change was due to two new additions that were added to Logos Now

Being a member to Logos now allows you to have access to a 10% & 20% discount for Logos 7 Libraries and Feature Sets

Access to all of Logos 7 Features (and new features to be released on newer version)

Because of this change unfortunately a monthly subscription isn't feasible as a member could just subscribe to Logos Now for a month, and take advantage of the discount then let their subscription lapse for the month. So therefore to make it worthwhile for both parties we changed this to annual so that we can offer a great discount for anyone who wants to take advantage of purchasing a Logos 7 Library and Feature Set and have access to all the great features that Logos Now provides. I hope this answers your question from our perspective on the change.

Why not just offer the discount to the annual subscribers, but still offer the monthly to those want it but don't mind not having the discount.

PetahChristian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/884778#Comment_884778

Why not just offer the discount to the annual subscribers, but still offer the monthly to those want it but don't mind not having the discount.

It sounds simple in theory, but the web site likely isn't setup to distinguish between a monthly subscription and an annual subscription. I suspect that's why FL dropped the monthly subscription, as it saved them from having to implement, support, and maintain different Logos Now tiers of benefits.

Down the road, some of those desired Logos Now features may become available to own in Logos 8 feature sets (but you would save more by being a Logos Now subscriber, which brings us back to the trade-offs of a monthly/annual subscription).

James McAdams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/884778#Comment_884778

Why not just offer the discount to the annual subscribers, but still offer the monthly to those want it but don't mind not having the discount.

That seems like it's inviting confusion - people paying more money for a service with a shared name to receive fewer benefits (unless you change the name) because they didn't want the upfront payment or have concerns about debt etc.

Plus you've got the people who've signed up for annual subscriptions who wouldn't have done so if Faithlife hadn't withdrawn the option.

It's not that it couldn't be done, but I'd expect a lot of confusion and complaints about it.

Batman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/884573#Comment_884573

I have a question and a suggestion.
Q. I have decided that with everyone demanding subscriptions, some annual, some monthly, I can no longer be generous with annual subscriptions that are greater than $20/yr (Bible Study Magazine is an example of a good sub $100 subscription). As a result, I will undoubtedly end up dropping the $100 subscription when it expires. So, the question is, will I revert back to the package I previously purchased, or, will I be out of luck?

S. If the discounts are what is preventing monthly subscriptions, why not delay them until 10-12 months of continuous and paid subscriptions? Granted, not everyone will feel that is cool, and be happy, but, would that not be a decent compromise? I have to agree, it would not be fair to anyone to allow discounts, and then allow people to abandon ship. Personally, I could agree to a delayed discount. It might be more complicated than I am thinking, probably is, but, it just is not feasible to have everyone's hand out at $100+ annually, any longer. At the rate I am not getting my vaue out of Logos, I just cant see paying $100 annually, or buying Logos 8 outright next month or whenever it comes out.

Just another perspective.

Thank you very much Francis for presenting a great argument for bringing back the monthly feature for Logos Now. All I can say is that the main reason for the change was due to two new additions that were added to Logos Now

Being a member to Logos now allows you to have access to a 10% & 20% discount for Logos 7 Libraries and Feature Sets

Access to all of Logos 7 Features (and new features to be released on newer version)

Because of this change unfortunately a monthly subscription isn't feasible as a member could just subscribe to Logos Now for a month, and take advantage of the discount then let their subscription lapse for the month. So therefore to make it worthwhile for both parties we changed this to annual so that we can offer a great discount for anyone who wants to take advantage of purchasing a Logos 7 Library and Feature Set and have access to all the great features that Logos Now provides. I hope this answers your question from our perspective on the change.

Batman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/884791#Comment_884791

Sadly, no matter what, there will be complaints. And more ashamedly (is that even a word? lol) I have not been Mr Happy with Logos. Still not totally, but, a lot more after a mistake on my part made me realize I was probably too harsh. But, I do admit, even if they gave the software away for free, people would complain. I just hope my complaints are justified. Beyond just me. lol.

Why not just offer the discount to the annual subscribers, but still offer the monthly to those want it but don't mind not having the discount.

That seems like it's inviting confusion - people paying more money for a service with a shared name to receive fewer benefits (unless you change the name) because they didn't want the upfront payment or have concerns about debt etc.

Plus you've got the people who've signed up for annual subscriptions who wouldn't have done so if Faithlife hadn't withdrawn the option.

It's not that it couldn't be done, but I'd expect a lot of confusion and complaints about it.

Rick Ausdahl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/909583#Comment_909583

I have a question and a suggestion.
Q. I have decided that with everyone demanding subscriptions, some annual, some monthly, I can no longer be generous with annual subscriptions that are greater than $20/yr (Bible Study Magazine is an example of a good sub $100 subscription). As a result, I will undoubtedly end up dropping the $100 subscription when it expires. So, the question is, will I revert back to the package I previously purchased, or, will I be out of luck?

S. If the discounts are what is preventing monthly subscriptions, why not delay them until 10-12 months of continuous and paid subscriptions? Granted, not everyone will feel that is cool, and be happy, but, would that not be a decent compromise? I have to agree, it would not be fair to anyone to allow discounts, and then allow people to abandon ship. Personally, I could agree to a delayed discount. It might be more complicated than I am thinking, probably is, but, it just is not feasible to have everyone's hand out at $100+ annually, any longer. At the rate I am not getting my vaue out of Logos, I just cant see paying $100 annually, or buying Logos 8 outright next month or whenever it comes out.

Just another perspective.

Thank you very much Francis for presenting a great argument for bringing back the monthly feature for Logos Now. All I can say is that the main reason for the change was due to two new additions that were added to Logos Now

Being a member to Logos now allows you to have access to a 10% & 20% discount for Logos 7 Libraries and Feature Sets

Access to all of Logos 7 Features (and new features to be released on newer version)

Because of this change unfortunately a monthly subscription isn't feasible as a member could just subscribe to Logos Now for a month, and take advantage of the discount then let their subscription lapse for the month. So therefore to make it worthwhile for both parties we changed this to annual so that we can offer a great discount for anyone who wants to take advantage of purchasing a Logos 7 Library and Feature Set and have access to all the great features that Logos Now provides. I hope this answers your question from our perspective on the change.

Rather than delaying discounts, another option could be to charge an annual subscription rate up front but allow customers to terminate the subscription at any time and receive a prorated refund, PROVIDED they haven't made any subsequent purchases using a LN discount.

Batman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/909624#Comment_909624

Well, I do have to say SOMETHING has to be better than the current state. A rebate/refund later on would work, I think. Deferred discounts, once we paid the equivalent of the year's subscription. Maybe not, but, I think I will be pretty much forced to cancel come August.

I have a question and a suggestion.
Q. I have decided that with everyone demanding subscriptions, some annual, some monthly, I can no longer be generous with annual subscriptions that are greater than $20/yr (Bible Study Magazine is an example of a good sub $100 subscription). As a result, I will undoubtedly end up dropping the $100 subscription when it expires. So, the question is, will I revert back to the package I previously purchased, or, will I be out of luck?

S. If the discounts are what is preventing monthly subscriptions, why not delay them until 10-12 months of continuous and paid subscriptions? Granted, not everyone will feel that is cool, and be happy, but, would that not be a decent compromise? I have to agree, it would not be fair to anyone to allow discounts, and then allow people to abandon ship. Personally, I could agree to a delayed discount. It might be more complicated than I am thinking, probably is, but, it just is not feasible to have everyone's hand out at $100+ annually, any longer. At the rate I am not getting my vaue out of Logos, I just cant see paying $100 annually, or buying Logos 8 outright next month or whenever it comes out.

Just another perspective.

Thank you very much Francis for presenting a great argument for bringing back the monthly feature for Logos Now. All I can say is that the main reason for the change was due to two new additions that were added to Logos Now

Being a member to Logos now allows you to have access to a 10% & 20% discount for Logos 7 Libraries and Feature Sets

Access to all of Logos 7 Features (and new features to be released on newer version)

Because of this change unfortunately a monthly subscription isn't feasible as a member could just subscribe to Logos Now for a month, and take advantage of the discount then let their subscription lapse for the month. So therefore to make it worthwhile for both parties we changed this to annual so that we can offer a great discount for anyone who wants to take advantage of purchasing a Logos 7 Library and Feature Set and have access to all the great features that Logos Now provides. I hope this answers your question from our perspective on the change.

Rather than delaying discounts, another option could be to charge an annual subscription rate up front but allow customers to terminate the subscription at any time and receive a prorated refund, PROVIDED they haven't made any subsequent purchases using a LN discount.

Adam Borries (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/909583#Comment_909583

the question is, will I revert back to the package I previously purchased?

Yes, you will retain everything you own as a permanent license. This includes any resources you purchased during your Logos Now membership.

When your Now membership lapses, you'll lose some Now-specific features (like Lemma in Passage), and any Logos 7 features you have not purchased as part of a Logos 7 Feature Set.

why not delay discounts until 10-12 months of paid subscriptions?

Interesting thought. My first reaction is that it would be too complicated to explain. If people are confused about Logos Now as it is, how would we make this understandable? But we are always looking for feedback, so thanks for idea.

Batman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/909904#Comment_909904

Adam,

Appreciate the response. Thanks

Yeah, I realize the delay option would result in confusion, I'm sure. But, just a thought. Don't even know if it possible; but, like I said, just a thought. I do hope some type of compromise is possible. What about a 6 month subscription, so it isn't so burdensome on some of us poor people?

the question is, will I revert back to the package I previously purchased?

Yes, you will retain everything you own as a permanent license. This includes any resources you purchased during your Logos Now membership.

When your Now membership lapses, you'll lose some Now-specific features (like Lemma in Passage), and any Logos 7 features you have not purchased as part of a Logos 7 Feature Set.

why not delay discounts until 10-12 months of paid subscriptions?

Interesting thought. My first reaction is that it would be too complicated to explain. If people are confused about Logos Now as it is, how would we make this understandable? But we are always looking for feedback, so thanks for idea.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/909904#Comment_909904

But we are always looking for feedback, so thanks for idea.

Discontinuing Logos Now monthly membership was a wise business decison given the discounts the program offers.

My recommendation would be to offer a completely different type of short term feature access rental program. A user could choose short term access to all features that normally are included with Logos Now for a limited time span between 1 and 3 months. $15 for 1 month, $ 28 for 2 months or $40 for 3 months or $60 for 6 months. Other benefits of Logos Now would not be included. It would not auto-renew as it is intended to be short term access only.

It is priced a little higher than Logos Now, unless a full 6 months option is taken up because ultimately you want customers to move over to a full Logos Now membership. Short term rental of anything generally comes at a premium. If they upgrade to Logos Now they get more for less in exchange for signing up for an annual auto renewing subscription. To further incentivise those who have taken up a 3 or 6 month feature rental agreement could be offered a coupon for $10 off their first year of Logos Now membership.

Such a feature rental program could be targeted at students and academics, like Francis, who only want access to complete writing a paper or for while they are undertaking a particular course.

Batman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/910078#Comment_910078

Well, I have never really been fond of the entire subscription idea. It's become such a part of society, however.
As long as we don't have to pay for an annual subscription for print Bibles. Yeesh, can you imagine that one? To carry a study Bible now, we'd have to pay $5 or $10 a year? That would be bad. But, then again, I think we're going pretty stupid as it is, and that's the point.
We're cutting the cable, and we end up paying more, for less. We cut the cord, and we're paying more for our phones. Maybe we'll end up paying a subscription for our groceries. Oh wait, I think they've done that already.
But, then, it's either subscribe or buy and upgrade constantly.

But we are always looking for feedback, so thanks for idea.

Discontinuing Logos Now monthly membership was a wise business decison given the discounts the program offers.

My recommendation would be to offer a completely different type of short term feature access rental program. A user could choose short term access to all features that normally are included with Logos Now for a limited time span between 1 and 3 months. $15 for 1 month, $ 28 for 2 months or $40 for 3 months or $60 for 6 months. Other benefits of Logos Now would not be included. It would not auto-renew as it is intended to be short term access only.

It is priced a little higher than Logos Now, unless a full 6 months option is taken up because ultimately you want customers to move over to a full Logos Now membership. Short term rental of anything generally comes at a premium. If they upgrade to Logos Now they get more for less in exchange for signing up for an annual auto renewing subscription. To further incentivise those who have taken up a 3 or 6 month feature rental agreement could be offered a coupon for $10 off their first year of Logos Now membership.

Such a feature rental program could be targeted at students and academics, like Francis, who only want access to complete writing a paper or for while they are undertaking a particular course.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/910458#Comment_910458

We're cutting the cable, and we end up paying more, for less.

I'm not! I have more channels than I have ever had, streaming, for $35/mo. Most of those channels aren't ones I want... but that was always true with cable. The new model allows me to download the "apps" I want (i.e. ESPN) and skip the rest.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/910458#Comment_910458

I am not fond of subscriptions either personally. Reality is though for a business to survive in a today's world with so many competing choices for a scarce resource - the money of consumers, yours and my money, the need regular cash flow to be able to pay the bills. Just like you and I need a regular guaranteed income so does a business. And a subscription model for a software company is one of the best ways to acheive that. The sales from a major release of software every couple of years are not enough to sustain a business day in day out.

In this particular thread though we are not talking about a subscription but short term rental of features that some users would like to have for a one off time period. I was simply putting my business hat on and thinking about how a rental model could be put together and used to give incentive for people to consider taking up a longer term subscription.

As I said at the start I'm not a fan of subscriptions, I agree with you we are paying more today for what seems like less but the technology behind it, comes at a cost even if unreliable at times. But a business needs to be able to pay its bills and I want to see this particular business survive and thrive so despite my distaste for subscriptions I have taken up a Logos Now membership as my way of making a small investment in keeping FL in business. And I do get something back for that small investment by way of selected discounts and ocassional coupons not available to non-members.

Well, I have never really been fond of the entire subscription idea. It's become such a part of society, however.
As long as we don't have to pay for an annual subscription for print Bibles. Yeesh, can you imagine that one? To carry a study Bible now, we'd have to pay $5 or $10 a year? That would be bad. But, then again, I think we're going pretty stupid as it is, and that's the point.
We're cutting the cable, and we end up paying more, for less. We cut the cord, and we're paying more for our phones. Maybe we'll end up paying a subscription for our groceries. Oh wait, I think they've done that already.
But, then, it's either subscribe or buy and upgrade constantly.

But we are always looking for feedback, so thanks for idea.

Discontinuing Logos Now monthly membership was a wise business decison given the discounts the program offers.

My recommendation would be to offer a completely different type of short term feature access rental program. A user could choose short term access to all features that normally are included with Logos Now for a limited time span between 1 and 3 months. $15 for 1 month, $ 28 for 2 months or $40 for 3 months or $60 for 6 months. Other benefits of Logos Now would not be included. It would not auto-renew as it is intended to be short term access only.

It is priced a little higher than Logos Now, unless a full 6 months option is taken up because ultimately you want customers to move over to a full Logos Now membership. Short term rental of anything generally comes at a premium. If they upgrade to Logos Now they get more for less in exchange for signing up for an annual auto renewing subscription. To further incentivise those who have taken up a 3 or 6 month feature rental agreement could be offered a coupon for $10 off their first year of Logos Now membership.

Such a feature rental program could be targeted at students and academics, like Francis, who only want access to complete writing a paper or for while they are undertaking a particular course.

Justin Gatlin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/909904#Comment_909904

the question is, will I revert back to the package I previously purchased?

Yes, you will retain everything you own as a permanent license. This includes any resources you purchased during your Logos Now membership.

When your Now membership lapses, you'll lose some Now-specific features (like Lemma in Passage), and any Logos 7 features you have not purchased as part of a Logos 7 Feature Set.

why not delay discounts until 10-12 months of paid subscriptions?

Interesting thought. My first reaction is that it would be too complicated to explain. If people are confused about Logos Now as it is, how would we make this understandable? But we are always looking for feedback, so thanks for idea.

"With your annual Logos Now Subscription, you can get a 10% discount off any base package! Customers on the monthly plan will receive the discount after 10 months as our way of thanking you for your loyalty. Everyone enjoys the great preview resources, ever-improving features and the special discounts. Either way, you and the people you teach win!"

Batman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/910473#Comment_910473

I admit, Im rare with my satellite, at around $38/mo. I have the cheapest subscription rate, have 2 DVRs and HD programming. So, for me, Hulu, Netflix, Amazon, Sling and all the other apps just keep adding up. I do keep Amazon, because I have the fire stick and have saved a zillion this year alone on shipping. But at $100 a year, and then now FL wanting $100/yr and Office is due again, and and and and, I am going to have to cut corners because its never ending.
Sadly for me, I have poured and poured and poured money into the software, and have gotten extremely frustrated that even with last year's super deal, and the temporary excitement I had for the first time since sinking so much in the initial purchase, I've found myself reading and studying less. The constant (and necessary) updates make it even more frustrating, and less desirable to even open the software at all. So, I may just end up having to let this one go. Sadly, after 8 and 9, I'll probably end up finding myself with some pretty worthless software. Logos is pretty good at allowing us to keep what we have, and eventually opening up the latest engine for free, but, I am sure, that will end too.
So, I have a month to 6 weeks to make a decision.

We're cutting the cable, and we end up paying more, for less.

I'm not! I have more channels than I have ever had, streaming, for $35/mo. Most of those channels aren't ones I want... but that was always true with cable. The new model allows me to download the "apps" I want (i.e. ESPN) and skip the rest.

Batman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/910474#Comment_910474

Unfortunately for me my reality is for me to survive with so many competing choices, and my scarce resources, I have to determine where I can put $100 at a time.
Logos is looking less and less likely to continue receiving my money. Logos is too complicated for me, the never ending updates and downloads are entirely too frustrating to me. I've pretty much just stopped reading altogether. I find it easier and quicker to type a simple reference into Google than to wait for decades for a verse to pop up in Logos. So, paying $100/yr just doesnt make sense any more. And when L8, 9 and 10 come out next year, I'll wind up having to pass. Like the global economy, it is not my responsibility to see the entire economy is flowing well, nor is it my personal responsibility to see FL's economy flows.
It's the hard cold facts, for me. It wouldnt be so bad as a monthly payment, unless the price is so high, it doesnt pay. Of course, paying $100 a year is preferable to paying $400 every time a new version comes out. (Consider that I started with L3 in 2010, and were at L7 in 6 years, 4 upgrades in 5-6 years).
Notes:
I know I can work the settings to update manually, rather than hourly (exaggeration). But, whats the point?
I also know I don't "have" to upgrade, that (as of now) FL still allows us to use the engine for free. But, I will mention that I missed 4, and it ended up costing me more.

I am not fond ly tof subscriptions either personally. Reality is though for a business to survive in a today's world with so many competing choices for a scarce resource - the money of consumers, yours and my money, the need regular cash flow to be able to pay the bills. Just like you and I need a regular guaranteed income so does a business. And a subscription model for a software company is one of the best ways to acheive that. The sales from a major release of software every couple of years are not enough to sustain a business day in day out.

In this particular thread though we are not talking about a subscription but short term rental of features that some users would like to have for a one off time period. I was simply putting my business hat on and thinking about how a rental model could be put together and used to give incentive for people to consider taking up a longer term subscription.

As I said at the start I'm not a fan of subscriptions, I agree with you we are paying more today for what seems like less but the technology behind it, comes at a cost even if unreliable at times. But a business needs to be able to pay its bills and I want to see this particular business survive and thrive so despite my distaste for subscriptions I have taken up a Logos Now membership as my way of making a small investment in keeping FL in business. And I do get something back for that small investment by way of selected discounts and ocassional coupons not available to non-members.

Batman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/910805#Comment_910805

No, I don't win.
The software is much too complicated for me, and I dont find myself having the time or desire to sift through 1000 3-5 minute videos to learn how to use it. I also dont find paying morris $450 for his DVDs or classes of much value.
I'm beyond the point of frustrated with so much, I dont even have much of a desire to even read or study any more. I find it quicker and easier to just google a reference or phrase. I dont have to download or wait decades for Google to open, and then wait more for it to respond. And then I am asked to pay $100 annually? I just cant justify it any more. While it might even out paying it monthly, if they dont provide that option, and not at a rate where it doesnt pay to pay monthly, it just does not look like FL will be getting more money this year.
And, not everyone enjoys the great previews. Not when I dont even enjoy opening up the software any more.
Notes: Again, I know I can manually update, so it does not update every time I open the software.

"With your annual Logos Now Subscription, you can get a 10% discount off any base package! Customers on the monthly plan will receive the discount after 10 months as our way of thanking you for your loyalty. Everyone enjoys the great preview resources, ever-improving features and the special discounts. Either way, you and the people you teach win!"

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/911198#Comment_911198

Batman you do not have join Logos Now. You do not have to pay $100 per year if it is of no value to you. You will loose nothing by not joining.

Like you I refuse to pay an exhorbitant amount of money for MP training.

Don't worry about trying to learn how to do everything. If you know how to run a passage guide, topic guide or factook report the you wil get benefit from your software. Set it to manual updates and you won't have to worry about that when you tutn on the software. You don't have to be an expert before you can get value out of the software.

No, I don't win.
The software is much too complicated for me, and I dont find myself having the time or desire to sift through 1000 3-5 minute videos to learn how to use it. I also dont find paying morris $450 for his DVDs or classes of much value.
I'm beyond the point of frustrated with so much, I dont even have much of a desire to even read or study any more. I find it quicker and easier to just google a reference or phrase. I dont have to download or wait decades for Google to open, and then wait more for it to respond. And then I am asked to pay $100 annually? I just cant justify it any more. While it might even out paying it monthly, if they dont provide that option, and not at a rate where it doesnt pay to pay monthly, it just does not look like FL will be getting more money this year.
And, not everyone enjoys the great previews. Not when I dont even enjoy opening up the software any more.
Notes: Again, I know I can manually update, so it does not update every time I open the software.

"With your annual Logos Now Subscription, you can get a 10% discount off any base package! Customers on the monthly plan will receive the discount after 10 months as our way of thanking you for your loyalty. Everyone enjoys the great preview resources, ever-improving features and the special discounts. Either way, you and the people you teach win!"

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/911198#Comment_911198

The software is much too complicated for me, and I dont find myself having the time or desire to sift through 1000 3-5 minute videos to learn how to use it. . . .
I'm beyond the point of frustrated with so much, I dont even have much of a desire to even read or study any more.

Fortunately, you don't need to know the whole system or sift through the videos - you have the forums. What do you want to be able to do in reading and studying that you don't know how to do easily? What happens when you are reading or studying that drives you nuts that you don't know how to turn off?

Batman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/911239#Comment_911239

I joined last year. Because I upgraded to 6 (a HORRIFIC upgrade for me) with the Now discounts, and the "new upgrade" discounts, I received an offer I could not refuse. For the first time since getting logos in 2009 or 2010, I was fairly happy (although, not at first) with yet ANOTHER upgrade. Because FL did right (for the first time, in MY opinion) to users who had just upgraded or purchased L6, I expected to have a revived energy and excitement over my very expensive to me, software.
So, do i HAVE to continue? Of course not. But, I saw this thread and thot Id put my 5 cents worth in. Or my 1 cent worth. I'd love to see the monthly payment return. BUT, I do understand their reasoning. There's no perfect way to make everyone happy. But, if there is a way to do something that resembles fair for all, I'd be interested in seeing that option.

Batman you do not have join Logos Now. You do not have to pay $100 per year if it is of no value to you. You will loose nothing by not joining.

Like you I refuse to pay an exhorbitant amount of money for MP training.

Don't worry about trying to learn how to do everything. If you know how to run a passage guide, topic guide or factook report the you wil get benefit from your software. Set it to manual updates and you won't have to worry about that when you tutn on the software. You don't have to be an expert before you can get value out of the software.

No, I don't win.
The software is much too complicated for me, and I dont find myself having the time or desire to sift through 1000 3-5 minute videos to learn how to use it. I also dont find paying morris $450 for his DVDs or classes of much value.
I'm beyond the point of frustrated with so much, I dont even have much of a desire to even read or study any more. I find it quicker and easier to just google a reference or phrase. I dont have to download or wait decades for Google to open, and then wait more for it to respond. And then I am asked to pay $100 annually? I just cant justify it any more. While it might even out paying it monthly, if they dont provide that option, and not at a rate where it doesnt pay to pay monthly, it just does not look like FL will be getting more money this year.
And, not everyone enjoys the great previews. Not when I dont even enjoy opening up the software any more.
Notes: Again, I know I can manually update, so it does not update every time I open the software.

"With your annual Logos Now Subscription, you can get a 10% discount off any base package! Customers on the monthly plan will receive the discount after 10 months as our way of thanking you for your loyalty. Everyone enjoys the great preview resources, ever-improving features and the special discounts. Either way, you and the people you teach win!"

Batman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/911252#Comment_911252

What drives me nuts? My old laptop died, and the new one is slower and just plain horrible. The result is Logos takes an extremely long time to open. But, even with the better computers, it has always been slow loading. Well, since L4, anyway. L3 was fine.
On a day I have the patience to wait 5+ minutes for it to load and additional time to respond, there's always updates, new resources, and then the indexing. So, it's frustration just getting it open and ready to use,
The next step is to find a verse or passage to read. Now we wait again.Meanwhile, I since I am pretty well versed on most references I need, I can google it and within seconds there it is.

Thanks to vendors not working with MS on XP and then on Vista, my e-bibles no longer worked. I had several, and it was a breeze. Type in what I wanted, and there it was. Logos is so much more, and with L4, it became so much more. Far too much, in MY opinion. But, by this point, I'm stuck because I sunk several of my annual salaries into this software, HOPING i would get motivated. I'm pretty sure u saw my displeasures with Logos and FL, particularly last year when I ended up doing a 180. For the first time since I got into this software, I was actually pleased with some things done to correct some of the things that I personally had found despicable. Again, Im sure you remember those rants. Because I feel FL did what was right (not just for me, but many others who were in the same position as myself) I got re-enthused with Logos.
All that is to say, Im not new to digital Bibles. But the learning curve here is great. So, I'd love to be able to use the power behind Logos; but, have never gotten much further than using it as anything more than a $50 software program. So far, in the years I have had Logos, I've never been able to do too much more than open it, and want to throw it out the window. Hence ALL my frustration. Now granted, I suspect should I get a new computer again this year, Logos will load faster. Somewhat. Of course, my area has left me stuck with super slow DSL, at 7mbps, so, some of it will never get better, until Century Link upgrades their lines.

So, what I would like from the software is to access more than just the bare minimum basics. Which requires me getting the motivation to sit thru a zillion 3 minute clips. Which, at least they are offering that. Just absolutely no desire any more. And sadly, that has pushed over into my overall desire to read and study at all. Even after buying several physical study Bibles this year. Yeah, thats been horrible to me this year too. Who knew there was a difference between the Zondervan NIV Study Bible and the NIV Study Bible, by Zondrvan? The former is a Study Bible, despite having DA Carsons name attached to it, is one that has notes a first grader probably made. Seriously. For where God tells us to be fruitful and multiply, the notes say "God wants his creation to increase". That was wasted money. Then I bought the Complete Jewish Study Bible, and discovered the guy added his agenda. In Revelation where it speaks of those who will be outside he adds "homosexuals" which one might be able to argue falls in line with "sexual immorality", but is not in the text. But, to go further, he added "users of drugs" or something bizarre and along the kines of drugs. Now that I wanna know what he was smoking when he added that to the text. So, I am struggling to even open a paper bible these days.

Arent you glad you asked? LOL.

The software is much too complicated for me, and I dont find myself having the time or desire to sift through 1000 3-5 minute videos to learn how to use it. . . .
I'm beyond the point of frustrated with so much, I dont even have much of a desire to even read or study any more.

Fortunately, you don't need to know the whole system or sift through the videos - you have the forums. What do you want to be able to do in reading and studying that you don't know how to do easily? What happens when you are reading or studying that drives you nuts that you don't know how to turn off?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/911298#Comment_911298

Arent you glad you asked?

Yes, but ... [;)]

The first question you have to answer honestly is (a) do I want to be able to use Logos for Bible Study sufficiently to go through the steps necessary to learn it or (b) do I want to complain and be frustrated more than I want to study? I don't know you personally in a way to know if you want to hit the reset button or not - or whether you find it easy or difficult to do so.

I get very frustrated with the very long wait for drop-down menus to build the first time one uses them. For this particular issue, I suggesting starting the search then wander off to make coffee or tea. It is very rare to have time to bake cookies as well.

If you decide you want to learn to study with Logos, I suggest a slow, simple reset method.

Chose a predefined layout e.g. Bible and Commentary or Passage Study.
Starting studying. What is the first thing you want to access/know that is not available to you on the layout?
If you know how to get it, access the information and decide if you want to add it to the layout. If you want to add it, do so immediately rather than hoping you'll remember later.
--- If you don't want to add it to the layout, close it so you don't accidentally clutter your layout with unnecessary items.
If you don't know how to get the missing information, ask on the forums then make the same choice with regards to changing the layout laid out above.
Try to limit yourself to one unfamiliar item per day so that you can remember how to access the data rather than going into overload mode and so that you don't get into frustration mode.
Don't feel obligated to find something new each day - assume that you'll get to the point where you'll know how to access most of the information that you want to use. Note this is not all the information Logos has to offer, it is all the information you actually use.
At this point, use the forum to learn if there are ways others find more efficient for finding the information you are using.
Finally, when you are very comfortable with the features you are using, start using the forum to ask how others use data that you own but are not using - then decide if it has value for you. There are some really great features that are useful only if you have specialized knowledge or interest in how to use them. It is perfectly fine to not be interested in everything because there is no way you'll ever be equally competent in everything.

Adam Borries (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/911298#Comment_911298

Batman,

Thanks for your thoughts here. I think I can boil all your comments down to three main concerns. Tell me if this is a fair summary:

You think Logos is too expensive.
You think Logos is too slow.
You think Logos is too complicated.

We have listened to you, and others, on these issues. We've made them three priorities to address this year.

We hear you. And we are working on it.

Making Logos more financially accessible.

This year, we released Logos Basic, which amounts to our first free package of essential resources and tools. (And to your concern that Logos won’t always have a free version, let me say for the record that we will keep our commitment to maintaining your access, indefinitely, to every book for which you have a license.) We also have a number of other free offerings, from mobile apps to web services.

This is part of fulfilling our mission to equip the Church, but we also have to keep the lights on. Logos will always be high-end software; it’s what keeps us in business and allows us to give away resources. But that doesn’t mean we want Logos to be out of reach for the average student or pastor; we are constantly trying new ways to open it up for more people:

Making more items available for a la carte purchase
Adjusting the prices on thousands of resources to be more competitive (this is ongoing and will continue)
Making high-quality content and tools available via subscription in Logos Cloud

When you have other ideas/suggestions, like I said earlier in this thread, we want to hear them.

Making Logos faster.

The last several updates to Logos have been focused on improving performance, and we have a few more improvements planned in the next couple of updates. Some of these won’t have a big impact on low-powered computers, but we are exploring options there, as well.

We’ve also been hard at work on the web app, where the server does a lot of the heavy lifting. It’s now available to everyone with a Logos 7 base package, so check it out at http://app.logos.com. And you never have to update it.

Making Logos easier.

We have some ideas for how Logos could actually guide you through a workflow, not just hand you a set of high-powered tools which you first have to learn how and when to use. We started this with Logos 7’s QuickStart layouts and Courses tool, and we think this is a big area of opportunity for us to improve.

In the meantime, I wholeheartedly support MJ’s suggestions above. And, instead of “sifting through 1000 3-minute videos,” try the training course that’s included with your Logos 7 library. LT271 is designed to be a practical application of the tools in Logos, laid out in a logical sequence of exegesis. Yes, it will take some time investment on your part, but I can’t tell you how many people have told me it’s worth it. Some, like yourself, had Logos for years, and after taking the course felt they were finally getting the result they had hoped for when they first invested in Logos.

Batman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/911307#Comment_911307

Some good 411 there. Thanks.
Do I want to be able to us Logos for Bible Study sufficiently... or do I want to complain and be frustrated more than I want to study?
I want to do the Matrix thing where they have instant knowledge. [:D] (I have enough time to do that. lol.
No, I'd rather not be frustrated at all. I'm glad to see FL is taking steps to make things "better".
Thanks for the advice. Sadly, my frustration has allowed me to completely give up. Im hoping to get that excitement again. And again, for the record, I am thrilled Logos has the free training videos, and all. Just getting the motivation level up again.

Arent you glad you asked?

Yes, but ...

The first question you have to answer honestly is (a) do I want to be able to use Logos for Bible Study sufficiently to go through the steps necessary to learn it or (b) do I want to complain and be frustrated more than I want to study? I don't know you personally in a way to know if you want to hit the reset button or not - or whether you find it easy or difficult to do so.

I get very frustrated with the very long wait for drop-down menus to build the first time one uses them. For this particular issue, I suggesting starting the search then wander off to make coffee or tea. It is very rare to have time to bake cookies as well.

If you decide you want to learn to study with Logos, I suggest a slow, simple reset method.

Chose a predefined layout e.g. Bible and Commentary or Passage Study.

Starting studying. What is the first thing you want to access/know that is not available to you on the layout?

If you know how to get it, access the information and decide if you want to add it to the layout. If you want to add it, do so immediately rather than hoping you'll remember later.
--- If you don't want to add it to the layout, close it so you don't accidentally clutter your layout with unnecessary items.

If you don't know how to get the missing information, ask on the forums then make the same choice with regards to changing the layout laid out above.

Try to limit yourself to one unfamiliar item per day so that you can remember how to access the data rather than going into overload mode and so that you don't get into frustration mode.

Don't feel obligated to find something new each day - assume that you'll get to the point where you'll know how to access most of the information that you want to use. Note this is not all the information Logos has to offer, it is all the information you actually use.

At this point, use the forum to learn if there are ways others find more efficient for finding the information you are using.

Finally, when you are very comfortable with the features you are using, start using the forum to ask how others use data that you own but are not using - then decide if it has value for you. There are some really great features that are useful only if you have specialized knowledge or interest in how to use them. It is perfectly fine to not be interested in everything because there is no way you'll ever be equally competent in everything.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/911608#Comment_911608

Just getting the motivation level up again.

Yes, it's much hard to try again compared to the first try.

Batman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/911405#Comment_911405

Adam,

Thank you.
1. I do think Logos is very pricey.
But, right now, that's not the issue
.
2. Yes, I do find Logos runs extremely slow. (On my current computer, which supposedly has better specs than anything else I have, EVERYTHING runs at the speed of a three legged turtle with crutches. But, even when I had better than top of the line computers, Logos has been slow. Logos 3 was the last version that ran at a reasonable speed. So, hopefully getting a new computer will improve things. Less than 2 years and needing replacement already? I knew I should have returned this heap of cheap plastic. lol)
I am glad to see Logos is working on this though. (This is why price is not an issue, because there are things FL does that warrant a hefty price tag: customer support, for example).
Love the idea of the cloud doing most of the "lifting".
It's frustrating to see software getting upgraded every couple years but, I also know if it isn't, it's worse later. But, it's also worse if it's too soon. (Yeah; but bear with me). Too long is worse, look at what happened with Vista. Too long, and it was horrible (I actually didnt mind it or 8). Too quick and it's worse. Look at Win ME after 98 and before XP. Look at XP after ME. Horrible, because MS wanted to get "one more OS in before the new millennium. Given the time, everyone who hated XP ending up loving it. There has to be a balance in there. I dont know where. But it can't be scheduled (Vista, 7 and 8).

3. Yes, I think Logos is very complicated, and I am thrilled to see FL is still working to make it easier to learn and use.

Thank you. And I am glad to see everyone is indeed taking what we have to say seriously and is trying hard to (I hate to say "fix them", but, that is about the only description I have), so I will say "fix them".

Batman,

Thanks for your thoughts here. I think I can boil all your comments down to three main concerns. Tell me if this is a fair summary:

You think Logos is too expensive.

You think Logos is too slow.

You think Logos is too complicated.

We have listened to you, and others, on these issues. We've made them three priorities to address this year.

We hear you. And we are working on it.

Making Logos more financially accessible.

This year, we released Logos Basic, which amounts to our first free package of essential resources and tools. (And to your concern that Logos won’t always have a free version, let me say for the record that we will keep our commitment to maintaining your access, indefinitely, to every book for which you have a license.) We also have a number of other free offerings, from mobile apps to web services.

This is part of fulfilling our mission to equip the Church, but we also have to keep the lights on. Logos will always be high-end software; it’s what keeps us in business and allows us to give away resources. But that doesn’t mean we want Logos to be out of reach for the average student or pastor; we are constantly trying new ways to open it up for more people:

Making more items available for a la carte purchase

Adjusting the prices on thousands of resources to be more competitive (this is ongoing and will continue)

Making high-quality content and tools available via subscription in Logos Cloud

When you have other ideas/suggestions, like I said earlier in this thread, we want to hear them.

Making Logos faster.

The last several updates to Logos have been focused on improving performance, and we have a few more improvements planned in the next couple of updates. Some of these won’t have a big impact on low-powered computers, but we are exploring options there, as well.

We’ve also been hard at work on the web app, where the server does a lot of the heavy lifting. It’s now available to everyone with a Logos 7 base package, so check it out at http://app.logos.com. And you never have to update it.

Making Logos easier.

We have some ideas for how Logos could actually guide you through a workflow, not just hand you a set of high-powered tools which you first have to learn how and when to use. We started this with Logos 7’s QuickStart layouts and Courses tool, and we think this is a big area of opportunity for us to improve.

In the meantime, I wholeheartedly support MJ’s suggestions above. And, instead of “sifting through 1000 3-minute videos,” try the training course that’s included with your Logos 7 library. LT271 is designed to be a practical application of the tools in Logos, laid out in a logical sequence of exegesis. Yes, it will take some time investment on your part, but I can’t tell you how many people have told me it’s worth it. Some, like yourself, had Logos for years, and after taking the course felt they were finally getting the result they had hoped for when they first invested in Logos.