Back in 2006 Logos told me that if I bought a book package, I would NEVER have to pay for the engine. The software was always "free".
This is still true. The engine is free. See the "install" link in my signature line.
I want to start by saying that I am one of Logos' best customers. I have used logos for over a decade. I am a high level user who has been to THREE Camp Logos events. I am a professor who uses Logos in the classroom. I have probably encouraged 10 people to purchase Logos that have resulted in sales in the last 2 months alone. I personally use Logos every day of my life for the last 10 years. I say all this to say, I am the ideal logos customer.l - But a straw has broken the back of this camel. When I posted on twitter, I was told the "decision makers" do not read twitter and do not receive information from those who work the logos twitter account. I was told by the logos twitter account that to have any hope of a response, I would need to post on a forum. - Back in 2006 Logos told me that if I bought a book package, I would NEVER have to pay for the engine. The software was always "free". At some point Logos changed their mind and decided to charge for the software engine despite their assurances this was not their model. It didn't matter what they told me previously. They would not honor that. - In 2013, when I was President of Pastors Conference, Logos refused to pay the sponsorship fee as agreed upon and ignored clear presentation restrictions. They were given a 10 minute presentation window and went over 20 minutes long. This is not only rude, it is ethically wrong as every other sponsor only got 10 minutes and going long as a sponsor is THEFT. When Logos was confronted about going well over their time limit (more than doubling it) they said it was necessary to give a full product description and it was already much shorter than the normal presentation. Then they had the audacity to NOT PAY the agreed upon share of the sales b/c they "didn't sell enough" to warrant any sponsorship payment after the fact! - Now in 2017 Logos is "giving away" their engine - which is not their engine - meant to hook people into paying $ for the "real software engine". With the "free" giveaway, Logos puts in the fine print they are just letting you "borrow" the books. They aren't actually giving them to you. So the "free" logos giveaway neither gives the software engine nor the books. - Also, after Logos telling me I need to renew faculty status in order to receive 50% off for next 6 months, I get an email that it is reduced to 40% after only 2 months. So much for honoring their word yet again. They could easily change the policy in 4 months when my status runs out. But instead they change it mid-stream unilaterally, giving no regard to what I was told 2 months ago. - On top of this, Logos has consistently demonstrated an increasingly deceptive, high pressure, manipulative sales practice that is questionable at best. It is clear Logos is only concerned about themselves and their bottom line.
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But a straw has broken the back of this camel. When I posted on twitter, I was told the "decision makers" do not read twitter and do not receive information from those who work the logos twitter account. I was told by the logos twitter account that to have any hope of a response, I would need to post on a forum.
Back in 2006 Logos told me that if I bought a book package, I would NEVER have to pay for the engine. The software was always "free". At some point Logos changed their mind and decided to charge for the software engine despite their assurances this was not their model. It didn't matter what they told me previously. They would not honor that.
In 2013, when I was President of Pastors Conference, Logos refused to pay the sponsorship fee as agreed upon and ignored clear presentation restrictions. They were given a 10 minute presentation window and went over 20 minutes long. This is not only rude, it is ethically wrong as every other sponsor only got 10 minutes and going long as a sponsor is THEFT. When Logos was confronted about going well over their time limit (more than doubling it) they said it was necessary to give a full product description and it was already much shorter than the normal presentation. Then they had the audacity to NOT PAY the agreed upon share of the sales b/c they "didn't sell enough" to warrant any sponsorship payment after the fact!
Now in 2017 Logos is "giving away" their engine - which is not their engine - meant to hook people into paying $ for the "real software engine". With the "free" giveaway, Logos puts in the fine print they are just letting you "borrow" the books. They aren't actually giving them to you. So the "free" logos giveaway neither gives the software engine nor the books.
Also, after Logos telling me I need to renew faculty status in order to receive 50% off for next 6 months, I get an email that it is reduced to 40% after only 2 months. So much for honoring their word yet again. They could easily change the policy in 4 months when my status runs out. But instead they change it mid-stream unilaterally, giving no regard to what I was told 2 months ago.
On top of this, Logos has consistently demonstrated an increasingly deceptive, high pressure, manipulative sales practice that is questionable at best. It is clear Logos is only concerned about themselves and their bottom line.
Dr Roland, I paragraphed, to better see your points. I'll erase if you want.
Chas, glad you checked in here.
I am sure if you email Bob (@) logos.com you will get a reply.
I really think you misunderstand about the engine. It is indeed free. Extra features (remember Libronix Add-Ins?) have often been at extra cost. While Faithlife is now producing many, many more of these (partly because of Logos Now subscriptions to fund them), you can upgrade to the Logos 7 engine for free. This has always been true. Logos never charged for the engine. Perhaps you misunderstood what was being offered (Faithlife sometimes doesn't communicate as clearly as some of us would like). So to say that at some point Logos changed their mind and started charging for the engine is not true and must be due to a misunderstanding.
If you want the datasets and features that run on the software you do have to pay for most of them. That really isn't new. It is just that there is a lot more of it. Frankly I think Logos' offer to provide all of that to you on a subscription basis for $99 a year is quite a good deal. Faithlife never promised that sort of thing for free, just the engine. When Logos was the engine and little more there was little difference in what you got for free and what you paid extra for. Now there is much more of a difference, but that's all. (I certainly hope you don't think they should give all the new datasets and features to you for free.)
As I said, Bob will be glad to respond to an email. Dan will do the same: Dan (@) logos.com.
Back in 2006 Logos told me that if I bought a book package, I would NEVER have to pay for the engine. The software was always "free". This is still true. The engine is free. See the "install" link in my signature line.
As alabama24 said, the Core Engine is still free. FL simply renamed it to "Basic" (and also included access to some books and features along with the engine), but it gets you access to the latest software, without needing to buy another bundle. There still are no strings.
It's an even better deal in general, and there's no downside for long-term customers like you.
I need to renew faculty status in order to receive 50% off for next 6 months, I get an email that it is reduced to 40% after only 2 months.
I'm thankful that FL can offer 20% or 40% or 50% off to students or faculty. We rejoice with those who rejoice.
I had to pay to upgrade to logos 7.
The engine is free. As Mark said, any new L7 features or libraries are not. All of us who chose to upgrade to Logos 7 had to pay. If you can get by without the new L7 features or libraries, you aren't required to buy them to get access to the free engine.
If I didn't have to pay to upgrade, I would like my money back.
They will probably give it to you, email Bob. He'll make it happen. Just know that you'll lose whatever books were in the base package you purchased if you return it.
Who here works for logos? No offense, but I am only interested in talking with Logos. I was told by logos on twitter to post here for a customer service response. That's really all I am interested in hearing feom. Thanks though.
None of us thus far. Logos for the most part depends on us forum users for customer service. You've been given the CEO of the company's personal email. Contact him, or dont. He always responds to everyone. You may or may not get an official reply on this post. But I don't think many employees get paid to read the forums . They may see it; if they do they will probably respond. But its above and beyond the scope of their paid responsibilities for most of them that do.
I was told by logos on twitter to post here for a customer service response.
You may get a response, but this is a user forum, so you will be hearing mostly from users.
Go back to my post above and use the email addresses I gave you.
I really think you've received the response on the free engine. You aren't likely to get anything much different from Logos personnel. Of course we can't speak to the presentation problem you mentioned.
Welcome [:D]
Suggest contacting Faithlife customer service about refund request => https://www.logos.com/contact Thankful Faithlife has a 30 day return policy.
Faithlife employees have a green logo under their avatar.
Keep Smiling [:)]
So the person who runs the logos twitter doesn't know how to tell someone to contact customer service? Unbelievable!
It is clear Logos is only concerned about themselves and their bottom line.
I am able to speak to this as well. I don't need to post all the details, but needless to say they have been quite generous with me personally...Finally I'm a student, and I would love to get 40% off. My discount is less because of my seminaries level of involvement with Logos.
I find it interesting that Logos expects their customers to pay, but logos won't pay what it agreed to pay, even after taking double their alloted time.
If a presenter promised you something (eg free datasets for life) email Bob. I've heard of him doing things that are more costly for people because of promises made by someone in the company. He's really not the guy you think him to be.
I don't need to post all the details
Sorry about everything you went through. Praying for you. Thankful that God can bring good out of the bad.
Hi Dr. Rowland,
As a Faithlife employee please allow me to apologize for the poor experiences you've suffered through.
Normally I only answer technical posts related to the mobile apps but I felt the need to respond to you. If you are willing, please send Bob an email as others have suggested. I think Bob is the person to help resolve these issues.
Others have responded to your other concerns, but this accusation warrants a response. This is truly troubling if true. It is dishonest if things happened as you describe. I'm not questioning your veracity or honesty. I'd just like to know if Logos does work this way and if so, how they can look themselves in the mirror.
You only paid for the additional resources (books and datasets) that were in the base package upgrade you chose. Logos does a great job of detailing what was NEW TO YOU in each base package upgrade option.
The L7 engine was free.
I'm surprised you are trying to contact a company through Twitter. Social media is usually viewed as advertising by companies and not a channel to contact them by. Go to the company website. There is a whole page of contact information. Or, alternatively, use Bob's email provided here. I would recommend taking the hostility down a notch. We are all just people, broken people who make mistakes. Even Logos owners and employees are people. It doesn't reflect well on your Baptist ministry.
And... yes Logos 7 is free. If you paid to upgrade you were buying resources. Logos has been very clear about how the upgrade works.
I disagree. Logos doesn't need to respond to every slanderous thing written about them by obviously hostile people.
I didn't say I tried to contact logos through twitter. They contacted me through twitter and asked me to post on here because they asked me to get in touch with the company and said this was the best way to do it. The lady on twitter wanted me to contact the company because she thought my complaints needed to be addresse. You don't think that is odd That she directed me here and not to an email If those emails are available?
Once again this user community thinks condemnation is the appropriate response to a frustrated customer.
So the person who runs the logos twitter doesn't know how to tell someone to contact customer service? Unbelievable! I'm surprised you are trying to contact a company through Twitter. Social media is usually viewed as advertising by companies and not a channel to contact them by.
I'm surprised you are trying to contact a company through Twitter. Social media is usually viewed as advertising by companies and not a channel to contact them by.
Not true James, I've come across companies for whom their only website is their social media site. And whatever the size of the company, social media is about building your brand through direct engagement with customers. This engagement will naturally include dealing with disputes. The company employee responding on a social media website should know how to direct a person to the customer service team of the company. It is ridiculous to suggest they shouldn't know that sort of information.
And... yes Logos 7 is free. If you paid to upgrade you where buy resources. Logos has been very clear about how the upgrade works.
James to you and everyone else who has responded unhelpfully on this thread with your judgement of Chas have quickly forgotten the mass confusion on these forums when Logos 7 was first released. There has been a massive shift in options available to customers in how the can acquire access to the software, the added tools and datasets, and books. Logos actually did not do a good job in making things clear and over the years the lines have blurred. I can understand a user getting confused about what they are getting for free and what is outside of that that requires payment.
I would recommend taking the hostility down a notch. We are all just people, broken people who make mistakes. Even Logos owners and employees are people. It doesn't reflect well on your Baptist ministry.
James you need to take your own advice before giving it to any one else. With this last comment you have just attacked Chas, a broken person, just like you, just like me, one susceptible to make mistakes, not only for his misunderstanding of what is free and what is not, not only for how he tried to seek help, but also had a go at his ministry. You failed so show him the grace you are telling him he should display towards FL. You just lost all credibility.
Chas I am a user just like you, I am sorry you have had some bad experiences with this company and I find some of the attitudes of your fellow customers towards you appalling - you should not be spoken to in the way they have chosen to do so. Given the issues you have experienced the person on the Twitter account should have directed you to the appropriate person within the company to deal with these problems rather than telling you to post your issues here. At this point because that employee failed in their job to direct you to the right help at that point, this is one of those situations where I'd recommend contacting Bob Pritchett directly: bob (@) logos.com.
Thank you. I appreciate your kindness and understanding. I did email him when his email was provided early in this thread. I look forward to his response. Which has not come as of yet.
Not arguing yea/nea, but 'broken' is a specific theology. Poor behavior is poor behavior, whether the OP or the other participants (more often me). 'Christ-Like' is also behavioral, and presumes another person can detect it.
Hello Dr. Rowland;
If I may add; As a personal experience, I had the need to email Bob with an issue that would require his direct interaction. I did not receive a personal reply from him, however, the resolution to the issue came by way of direct reply from employees within Logos. I am stating this to say that if you do not receive a direct reply from Bob, don't take offense that he did not read or reply, as he may have delegated the resolution to his employees.
Have a blessed day.
Dr. Chas Rowland I most certainly do not work for FL. And I will say I feel you have serious complaint that should be addressed with the presentation issues..a few minutes even 5 seems acceptable variation, but I do agree that it was at best a rude infraction. FL has made it very clear that a functioning base engine is always free, it has been clear since I think 5 that initial base engine release will be 6 months to help recoup costs. This benefits non-paying customers the most as the FREE engine is highly debugged verse those of us who want to be on the edge. I cannot fully support your notion that FL has become unethical from your complaint. I hope you can find satisfaction.
-Dan
Bob sent me a very long, detailed, personal, honest, kind, gracious, and apologetic email today. I think we have identified the main root to all of my complaints and I am grateful for Bob's response to me to rectify all of my issues with grace in contrast to my lack of grace in my complaints. I am appreciative of his efforts and kindness.
[Y]
Thank you for taking time to post about the response you received. I had no doubt that you would receive a response like this for it is consistent with the way Bob has responded to others who have expressed concerns in the past. Pretty amazing really.
Once again this user community thinks condemnation is the appropriate response to a frustrated customer. We are quick to do that. Has been this way as long as I've been a part of the community.
Thank You for acknowledging this does happen and for thinking through the issue. But at the end of the day whatever the reason people do this, I do not believe it is the appropriate way to handle these sort of situations.
Finally to be fair. you were fairly hard on James.
Was I hard on James ? Yes, because he was hard on Chas. He ridiculed him for using Twitter when it was the FL employee at fault for not directing Chas to the correct channel for assistance. It doesn't matter what channel you initially engage a company with when you have an issue the person from the company you engage with should know where to direct you for assistance.
Secondly he was hard on Chas for misunderstanding in regards to what he was paying for and what he was not paying for when it comes to the software. Simply fact is FL, for the right reasons but all the same, has blurred the lines of what is free, what you pay for and whether what you are paying for is giving you total ownership or rental. Only yesterday there was another question about the difference between Logos Now and Logos Cloud - there are so many options now it is not as clear.to a customer who does not engage regularly with these forums on what is what. I just looked on the Logos website and the Upgrade to Logos 7 page fails to make mention of the fact a customer can in fact upgrade to Logos 7 for through the Logos 7 Basic package. The feature set comparison page also fails to make any mention of Logos Basic. The fact that Logos delays for three months the free engine upgrade further adds to the confusion for customers who are happy with the Logos 4, 5 or 6 package they have previously paid for and now only want to upgrade the software. So not only do I believe James was hard on Chas in regards to this point but all other respondents who were falling over each other to get in line and chastise him for not knowing there was a free engine upgrade option still available. FL delay the release of this option - which was never what the originally did - they have changed the rules - and when the do eventually make it available they fail to make it clear and visible on their website - you have to know its there and the change change to Logos 7 Basic makes it just that eve little bit harder to find for customers like Chas.
Thirdly Jame went outside of the the issues Chas raised and started questioning his ministry - that is not ok. And that is why I believe James lost his credibility - and I only meant that within the context of this thread so I apologise for not being clear enough about that point. James is just like you, just like me and just like Chas, but withing the context of this thread he lost his credibility to be able to bring anything useful to the discussion by going outside the discussion and raising questions about Chas ministry. Not only was James hard in this instance he was out of line - and we are all guilty of that at some point in our lives if we are honest, whether it be on these forums on another part of our lives.
One could easily substitute my name, or yours or james name in the above paragraph. I don't think anyone has lost credibility here. Just that the vestigial elements of our fallen nature have been put on display quite prominently.
I have already pointed out why I believe in the context of this thread, James did losse credibility, but on your other points I wholeheartedly agree hence why I believe the quick to condemn attitude on these forums needs to stop.
Great to here your issues have been resolved. Frustrations sometimes gets the best of all of us at various times.
There are some very knowledge, helpful people around these parts so I hope you do feel comfortable with posting on these forums in the future as the needs arises.
Bob sent me a very long, detailed, personal, honest, kind, gracious, and apologetic email today.
I, and others, have learned to expect this from Bob. I am very happy to hear that one of Logos' good customers is a happier one today.
Bob sent me a very long, detailed, personal, honest, kind, gracious, and apologetic email today. I, and others, have learned to expect this from Bob. I am very happy to hear that one of Logos' good customers is a happier one today.
Bob is a great man! Sometimes as humans we tend to let our emotions and frustrations get in the way and we complain in the most unchristian ways. He always goes the extra mile for reasonable situations, not many CEO's do that. Props to him and many blessings too!
DAL
Glad it worked out for you.
This is probably a conversation for another website, but I should think its easier to identify someone whose not exhibiting behavior that resembles Christ. Certainly in my case a close look in the mirror is enough to identify someone who falls short. As to the inverse, we may not agree on the definition of Christ-likeness though we probably all have a priori lists that we strive towards. Despite the objective nature of scripture, we are often subjective and any list (positive or negative) I imagine would be infected by that same subjectivity. Never the less I think a study of scripture could bring us rather close.
I love stories with happy endings
Seriously, I think Bob is doing his best with FL. But somewhere down the line, there may be individuals who do not work with his set of convictions. Ahem. But I have come to expect this from a fallen world.
