Sync
I have set "user Internet" to no because I do not want my data on Logos' servers.
Now, I am wondering how do I ensure that my data has been deleted on the Logos' servers and their backup files?
Comments
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tom collinge said:
because I do not want my data on Logos' servers.
My question is why? You are removing some of the best backup protection, the support for synchronized files across multiple platforms and automatic updating of software and resources. I understand why these advantages are overridden by concerns over band-width for a number of users. But I wonder what the trade-offs are for you?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I ain't got no secrets to hide...back me up, please...3 weeks ago I had to reformat my hard drive....had to restore all other software and data one at a time from backup disks, but Logos restored everything including my layouts automatically for me....Thank you, Logos...
Chuck
Laptop: Lenovo P580 - 15.6" IdeaPad Laptop
- 6GB Memory - 750GB Hard Drive - Windows 7
Iphone5s Logos 7, Bronze0 -
MJ. Smith said:
My question is why? You are removing some of the best backup protection, the support for synchronized files across multiple platforms and automatic updating of software and resources. I understand why these advantages are overridden by concerns over band-width for a number of users. But I wonder what the trade-offs are for you?
Simply I do not want my data on Logos' servers. I already have a system in place to back up my data and to keep my data in sync across all of my computers. Thus, on top of my privacy concerns, what Logos is providing is redundant and it slows things down too much (when I use L4).
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Chuck P. said:
I ain't got no secrets to hide...back me up, please...3 weeks ago I had to reformat my hard drive....had to restore all other software and data one at a time from backup disks, but Logos restored everything including my layouts automatically for me....Thank you, Logos...
I do not have a problem with people who do not mind keeping their data on someone's server. I do, and I do not want my data on Logos' servers. I do not need this service, and I do not want this service.
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tom collinge said:
Now, I am wondering how do I ensure that my data has been deleted on the Logos' servers and their backup files?
You need to speak directly to Logos about your privacy concerns, but please read the EULA at http://www.logos.com/ArticleViewer/2090 and the section on Online Backup.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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tom collinge said:
I do not want my data on Logos' servers.
I may be wrong, but I believe this means that you will have to forego use of Logos 4.
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Jack Caviness said:tom collinge said:
I do not want my data on Logos' servers.
I may be wrong, but I believe this means that you will have to forego use of Logos 4.
Jack, I received a phone call from Sarah Swier of Logos yesterday, and she basically confirmed what you said. You can say that I am not a happy camper. I believe it is wrong for a company to force its users to store his/her data on the company's servers. As a matter of fact, I am sooooooo mad that I am going to contact my senators. If they are going to do something is a different story.
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tom collinge said:
I believe it is wrong for a company to force its users to store his/her data on the company's servers.
I wholeheartedly agree. In fact I would be that the owners of Logos would too. Here is the thing, they are not forcing you to do so. They are requiring it as part of the use of their software, but they are not forcing you to use their software. There are plenty of software companies that do not require this (can't think of any that do require it off the top of my head). But that is the cost of doing business with Logos. You have to determine if it you are willing to pay. I personally prefer it as do many others. I hate DRM, but am willing to pay even though I don't like it. I also don't like paying a grand for some commentary sets, but I did because cost v. value said it was worth the grand.
If your Senators are willing to get involved in this, my hope is that your state will vote them out of office. We have too many government officials willing to limit the free exercise of business (and religion for that matter).
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
tom collinge said:
I believe it is wrong for a company to force its users to store his/her data on the company's servers. As a matter of fact, I am sooooooo mad that I am going to contact my senators. If they are going to do something is a different story.
It may be distasteful to you (I had to get over my distaste for it too, and the only reason I have been able to is that I know Bob personally and trust Logos implicitly). But it's probably not illegal. And you won't get anywhere with your senators unless Logos is breaking some law in doing it.
Google forces its users to store their data on the company's servers, too. Of course you don't have to use Google, but if you want to use their software (Google Docs, Google Calendar, etc.) you will have no choice but to store your data on their servers. Even your email provider forces you to store your email on their servers. You may think you have complete control over it once it is downloaded to your home computer, but if you've ever gone more than one day between checking your email, it resided on their servers long enough to get backed up. So there's no way to eradicate it.
I hear you. It's nasty that our lives are getting so intertwined with the "cloud" these days. But short of crawling into a cave and refusing to use technology, there's no way to avoid it. Read Jacques Ellul's The Technological Society and see where he predicts those who resist will end up! [:(] I think our best bet is to take reasonable precautions, take a sabbath break from our technology every now and then to remind ourselves that we can still live without it if we had to, be always be prayerful in our use of technology, be mindful of our choices and make the best choices when we have a choice, educate others about the potential dangers, and ultimately trust God that in the things that truly matter "all will be well and all manner of thing will be well" regardless of what happens with your data.
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Thoughtful and well said, Rosie.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Tom, please consider your desire to contact your Senators to go after a brothers in Christ in light of the Bible, particularly in light of the principles of 1 Cor 6:1-11 (esp 6:7).
If you don't want to use Logos 4 because of its web-connectedness, don't. But to try to take a Christian company down, particularly a Christian company that offers tools to help make the Bible in its original languages more accessible to the masses, because you're angry just seems a little overkill, and quite frankly unchristian.
I understand your frustration. I too have frustration over the way that internet is a must-use feature. I know people in closed countries overseas whose internet activity is monitored who will not be able to use Logos4 (or at least not any of the web-features while they are there). But I understand their position and am hopeful that at some point in the future we will be given more granular control over syncing. I understand why giving us that at this point isn't a huge priority for Logos while they are missing those features.
But taking Logos to court or attempting to obtain some legislative or other punitive action against them is simply not the way to go
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
Wow, it looks like some people, if they live in the U.S., need to go back and re-read their high school civic's text book. We do not contact our legislators to enforce the laws or to take them to court. We contact our legislators because we see (believe) that something is wrong, and we want it corrected.
I believe forcing a person to upload his/her data to the company's servers is an invasion of privacy - period!
I am going to be meeting someone from my representative's office in a few weeks, and I am going to bring up this business practice. I do not believe any company should force their users to upload their works of art, and I (the social justice nut that I am) am going to try to do something about it. If nothing happens, well, I tried.
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No one is being "forced" to send their data to Logos' servers. There is the option to work offline, or you can simply turn off your Internet connection and Logos 4 will never sync. Sure, you lose some functionality, but nobody is being forced to do that, although by purchasing L4, you should be aware that it's part of the program's feature set.
Personally, I'm thankful that they're backing up my stuff because it gives me the added benefit of knowing that I have another means of keeping my data from being forever lost.
Urban Scholar - http://urban-scholar.com
Christ-centered Hip-Hop - http://www.sphereofhiphop.com0 -
LaRosa Johnson said:
No one is being "forced" to send their data to Logos' servers. There is the option to work offline, or you can simply turn off your Internet connection and Logos 4 will never sync. Sure, you lose some functionality, but nobody is being forced to do that, although by purchasing L4, you should be aware that it's part of the program's feature set.
Personally, I'm thankful that they're backing up my stuff because it gives me the added benefit of knowing that I have another means of keeping my data from being forever lost.
Good point! I could not improve on your statement.
Ted.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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tom collinge said:
Jack, I received a phone call from Sarah Swier of Logos yesterday, and she basically confirmed what you said. You can say that I am not a happy camper. I believe it is wrong for a company to force its users to store his/her data on the company's servers. As a matter of fact, I am sooooooo mad that I am going to contact my senators. If they are going to do something is a different story.
I believe that you can run L4 on a machine that is not connected to the internet. But L4 is not designed to do that.This was discussed previously, and the case of a missionary without internet access was brought up. At that time, we were assured that it was possible to do this. However, I don't know whether one can register one's copy of the software without internet access. So there may be a first-time use required.
Further, if you choose to use L4, you must agree to its EULA, which states:
ONLINE BACKUP
Data
you enter into the Software, including notes, settings, preferences, and
documents, will be automatically backed up to Logos.com over the
Internet, and downloaded to other instances of the Software logged in
using your email and password. This automatic synchronization helps you
access your content on multiple computers and may be used to let you use
your own data online. Logos will not share your data without your
permission, but may examine it programmatically for anonymous
statistical purposes or in order to provide technical support.DO NOT
STORE HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION IN THE SOFTWARE. The Software is
designed for consumer reference and study purposes, and while we will
take all precautions to protect your data, we cannot ensure the level of
security you would expect from online banking or other highly secure
services.If you do not agree to all the terms of the EULA, do not use the software. In other words, if you value your privacy more than the benefits of using Logos 4 to the degree that the two are not compatible, do not use the software. If you are still able, get a refund. Alternatively, take Logos' advice and "Do not store highly confidential information in the software."
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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tom collinge said:
I believe forcing a person to upload his/her data to the company's servers is an invasion of privacy - period!
I am going to be meeting someone from my representative's office in a few weeks, and I am going to bring up this business practice. I do not believe any company should force their users to upload their works of art, and I (the social justice nut that I am) am going to try to do something about it. If nothing happens, well, I tried.
Tom,
Canada, where I live, has stronger privacy laws than the U.S. Organizations in Canada are not allowed to store people's personal data on their servers with out their permission, and they're never allowed to store people's personal data on servers residing in the US because the US privacy laws are weaker.
So you have a valid concern in general about privacy laws in the U.S. and are perfectly justified in wanting to work to change them. However please don't direct your efforts angrily towards Logos for what it has been doing, which is well within current laws and is common business practice, and which many users consider to be a benefit to them. This is much bigger than just Logos. I think you are perhaps projecting onto Logos your frustration with the way privacy protections have been eroding in the US over the past few years.
Dwarfing your indignation about Logos storing your Bible notes on their secure servers is the fact that there is much more personal data about you publicly available on the web to anyone who can put two and two together, and you put it there! I won't mention the specifics in this public forum, but I found where you live, what you do for a living, where you went to college and what you majored in, some of your past jobs, your views on homosexuality and the Church, etc. I find it odd that you are so incensed about Logos's use of their servers to provide backup features for you given your blasé attitude about your own privacy in such personal details.
Once again Logos isn't forcing you to upload your data to their servers. They asked you permission, and you gave it to them. Perhaps you didn't read the EULA, but that's what EULAs are for. Most people don't read them, they just Agree to them to get on with the task of installing the software. But it's your own fault if you agreed to it without reading it and then later discovered some practice that Logos was completely transparent about up front which is distasteful to you.
As others have pointed out, Logos already gives you another way not to partake in their backing up of your data, by setting "Use Internet" to "No" in Program Settings. Of course that would make some other functionality (like automatic updating to new versions of the software and resources) not function.
But instead of storming off to your legislators to force Logos to do it differently, have you considered proposing a feature that would give more granularity to your control of privacy? How about an option in the Settings box for "Do not backup my personal data on your servers" but it would still allow the other Internet functionality to work? I for one would use that feature. I like doing my own backups, thank you very much. Logos is very responsive to user suggestions, and I know that other users have similar concerns about this and would give a thumbs up if you posted a suggestion like that (not angrily) in the Suggestions forum. Your current approach seems to be alienating people, but you could be collaborative and work for changes that would meet your needs. And that wouldn't preclude you also working with your legislators to strengthen US privacy laws. But by working with Logos rather than against them, you'd give them the opportunity to be ahead of the curve and beat the laws and not have to be forced by the government to change the practices which you don't like.
Blessings,
Rosie0 -
tom collinge said:
I do not believe any company should force their users to upload their works of art, and I (the social justice nut that I am) am going to try to do something about it.
I fail to understand how we are "forced" by Logos. Any time I choose to use email, post on forums, engage in e-commerce, use a browser ... I am leaving some personal data on several external computers. This is simply something I choose to do because I choose to use those services. The only difference I see is that you didn't recognize the choice - you made it unwittingly then were surprised/upset when you discovered it. Please don't involve my representative - I have far more important social justice issues for him to tackle.[8-)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Rosie Perera said:
have you considered proposing a feature that would give more granularity to your control of privacy? How about an option in the Settings box for "Do not backup my personal data on your servers" but it would still allow the other Internet functionality to work?
Now that I have time to cool off (just a bit), I can see how y'all can see my anger being direct to Logos. I am very sensitive to privacy. I had an online company (MovieWatcher.com) sell my personal information (including my credit card number) to another company (which was legal at that time), and this other company was able to charge items to my credit card because I somehow clicked something on their website (I did not noticed that I was no longer on moviewatcher.com). When I found out that Logos was taking my data and storing on their servers, I saw (and still do) see this as another case of invasion of privacy.
Rosie, I want to say thanks for pointing this out how I was coming across to people.
This all being said, I am still going to be active with my legislators to change our privacy laws. I have contacted a couple of consumer
privacy groups concerning this practice, and this is what I was told, "The
problem you outlined is a chief concern of privacy advocates...This
is a consumer rights issue that I hope you will consider pursuing." Based on this information, it sounds like that I am not the only person who has been complaining about this type of business practice. I was also told that Logos might be infringing on personal copyright issues concerning original works by not asking for permission to upload the data.For all of you that I have offended, I am sorry. Based on Rosie's suggestion, I will put in a suggestion to add more user control to what gets uploaded to Logos's servers.
This being said, I am still going to be working with my legislators to change US privacy laws (as I said above), and I am still going to use Logos as an example. Hopefully, Logos will implement my suggestion so I can also use Logos as an example of a company that also listens to its users concerning privacy.
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tom collinge said:
I was also told that Logos might be infringing on personal copyright issues concerning original works by not asking for permission to upload the data.
I'm no lawyer, but if you agreed to the Logos EULA, you did give Logos permission to upload your data to the Logos servers (see my post on the EULA above).
It seems to me, that if you do want to make a legal case, or change privacy laws, you will have to deal with the wording of the EULA. In order to make happen what you want to happen, a law would have to be written that would make this sort of EULA illegal. And if you do that, be prepared to fight not only Logos, but also Google, Microsoft, Amazon, and a bunch of other big name, big money companies. In other words, you have a big job ahead of you!
Just to clarify, I admit that I honestly don't understand your concern about privacy as regards info that Logos might store on their servers (even after reading what you wrote here), but I'm not offended by that concern (nor how you expressed it), nor am I trying to talk you into a different position.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Hi Richard,
Based on the emails that I received from the consumer privacy groups, companies can change the EULA at any time.
Another issue, based on my understanding of the issue based only on the emails that I have comes from the fact that what we do in our software is considered as an "original work of art." Can a company (Logos in this case) make a one time statement saying that they can copy all of your "original works of arts?" Or do they need permission to copy each "original work of art?" I believe this is why the person who wrote me stated that copyright laws are confusing.
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tom collinge said:
Hi Richard,
Based on the emails that I received from the consumer privacy groups, companies can change the EULA at any time.
Another issue, based on my understanding of the issue based only on the emails that I have comes from the fact that what we do in our software is considered as an "original work of art." Can a company (Logos in this case) make a one time statement saying that they can copy all of your "original works of arts?" Or do they need permission to copy each "original work of art?" I believe this is why the person who wrote me stated that copyright laws are confusing.
Yes a company can change it's EULA at any time, but good companies, like Logos, notify their customers about the changes.
I know copyright laws are confusing. But the EULA does clearly state that anything we type in our notes will be uploaded to their servers. So, if you don't agree, don't use the software, or don't put anything you consider of value in your notes files. Note files are there for our convenience. For any serious study, I don't use them, preferring to use WordPerfect instead. The note system has always been too cumbersome for anything but the briefest of observations (IMHO, of course).
A similar agreement is given with the SermonFile addin for Libronix. You can look at that addin if you like and read the agreement there. That one clearly states that we give up at least some of our exclusive rights to our materials. But that's not any different than an arrangement between an author or a composer and a publisher - except that Logos is not selling our materials.
If copyright is your biggest concern, use the common law copyright regulations and simply put "Copyright 2010, Tom Collinge, contents may not be used without my explicit permission" as the first note of each note file (not each note), and your rights should be legally secured. Common law copyright is recognized in the U.S. Though it can be difficult to sustain a challenge to it, legally, most believers would acknowledge your rights and grant them without argument.
But note files don't seem to be your primary concern, are they? Logos also tracks our licenses and settings, as well as other documents created in the software. In terms of identity theft, the note files are of no concern, unless you regularly put your social security number, and credit card numbers in them! License files could be of concern, but it's difficult to know how these could be used for identity theft.
The biggest concern there, isn't that Logos stores this info, but that when we buy stuff from Logos over the internet, our credit card info passes through who knows how many servers before getting to them. Or, that Logos' servers themselves could be breached and this account info stolen. But even here the chances of this happening are quite remote.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Tom,
Though I really do not understand why you feel as you do, I do agree that it is your right to feel that way. You have every right to not place your data on Logos' server.
However, they have every right to sell their software with that requirement. I wish they would make it optional for folks who feel as you do, but that is their business decision to make.
I would think that you would be entitled to a refund if you and Logos could not reach an understanding. Well, maybe not entitled since it was in the fine print. However, I did not notice that it was required, and it would be nice of Logos to at least offer you a refund. Of course, you would have to give up Logos software.
Neither Logos nor you have the right to tell the other how to run their business. Come to think of it, neither do I, but that doesn't stop me from trying.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0
