Frustrating to Have to Wait to Update New Content
I purchased an update to the MacArthur library from Nelson and since it comes in v. 3.0 install disks, I have to call or reinstall 3.0 to get it going. So I had to wait for 25 minutes on hold tonight. There is really no good reason for this. Logos you could come up with an automated way to enter a serial number so get the new content in my license.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association
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It would be so nice if you could unlock on the Internet given an order. I am suffering from one where I have to wait for the CD...
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/14001/107800.aspx#107800
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The situation hasn't changed. Logos has to renegotiate some of the contracts to make them available as downloads, on iphones etc. No need wasting perfectly good frustration on something that is changing albeit more slowly than you might like. I, for one, prefer to use my perfectly good frustration on missing features and the implementation of lectionaries. [:P]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
The situation hasn't changed. Logos has to renegotiate some of the contracts to make them available as downloads, on iphones etc. No need wasting perfectly good frustration on something that is changing albeit more slowly than you might like. I, for one, prefer to use my perfectly good frustration on missing features and the implementation of lectionaries.
Or...
They could just allow serial number entry within L4. That would save quite a bit of customer frustration and wasted customer service phone time helping everybody.
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
Jacob Hantla said:
They could just allow serial number entry within L4. That would save quite a bit of customer frustration and wasted customer service phone time helping everybody.
Thumbs UP! [Y]
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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It's like Logos doesn't want us to spend money with them. Why are they making it so hard to BUY their products? There are now several threads with problems related to purchases, and no answers from Logos at all.
Logos, are you listening? You are putting on a clinic about how to lose customers.
Fred Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA, Katy, TX
Windows 10 64-bit; Logos 7.1 SR-2 (Reformed Platinum)0 -
Jacob Hantla said:
They could just allow serial number entry within L4.
Not knowing how the contracts read, I don't know if this is a possible solution. It could be a nice solution.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Fred Greco said:
Logos, are you listening? You are putting on a clinic about how to lose customers.
I don't think that's true. For the most part, purchasing products is much improved and streamlined from only a few months ago. But in the transition, there are certainly some oversights. I think this is one of them.
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
Fred Greco said:
Why are they making it so hard to BUY their products?
Come on - how many months ago were we happily placing disk-only orders? For the disk vs. download problem they did give us the answer: contracts. The answer hasn't changed. As for the download problems on products expected to download, the fact that they are glitches make them annoying but come on - you've waited months or years for the resource. What's an additional 72 hours? Where's the perspective?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ, my purpose in posting about this again is to be the squeaky wheel, hoping to get some grease. If they keep hearing this, maybe they can go to Nelson and say, "Look, our customers want your stuff. Make it easier for them to buy it."
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Kevin A. Purcell said:
my purpose in posting about this again is to be the squeaky wheel, hoping to get some grease.
But can't we give them time to fill the grease gun before the next squeak? As an MVP I feel an obligation to read most of the threads on which I think I might be of help. As a result I get to hear every squeaky wheel ... its a cacophony not a symphony[:(]
But, yes, I would defend your right to be a squeaky wheel if that is what you want to be.[:)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Kevin A. Purcell said:
my purpose in posting about this again is to be the squeaky wheel, hoping to get some grease.
But can't we give them time to fill the grease gun before the next squeak? As an MVP I feel an obligation to read most of the threads on which I think I might be of help. As a result I get to hear every squeaky wheel ... its a cacophony not a symphony
But, yes, I would defend your right to be a squeaky wheel if that is what you want to be.
That's fine. It's your right to read and reply. But it is my right to squeak so long as they do not choose to either redact my comments or make a final yes/no regarding this issue.
As for the issue of this begin a contractual issue, I find that a hollow argument and I doubt it is the real reason. I suspect that they just do not want to bother due to the potential of having some kind of hack that could make it possible to illegally add books to a person's library. I know that the powers that be at Logos are well aware of this problem. Sadly the few who abuse are likely hurting the many who comply. I've always said that DRM seldom stops the crooks and usually makes life harder for the honest and the vendors alike.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Kevin A. Purcell said:
As for the issue of this begin a contractual issue, I find that a hollow argument and I doubt it is the real reason.
I've never felt that Logos has lied to me and think the download method is less expensive for Logos ... so I respectfully disagree.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Kevin A. Purcell said:
As for the issue of this begin a contractual issue, I find that a hollow argument and I doubt it is the real reason.
Kevin, you've been around the block a few times and know about the archaic "By breaking this seal you acknowledge you have read the license agreement and accept it's terms" EULA. It is real and has stood up in court challenges.
Logos wants everybody to go with download delivery on all purchases. They made it so easy with a one-step script posted on the February blog, here: http://blog.logos.com/archives/2010/02/change_your_cd-rom_pre-pub_orders_to_downloads.html
Kevin A. Purcell said:some kind of hack that could make it possible to illegally add books to a person's library. I know that the powers that be at Logos are well aware of this problem.
Yes, they are aware of software piracy.The digital download delivery system coupled with "The Cloud" is a great move in stopping pirates. There are still loopholes to be closed but that isn't why we still have serial numbers. & CDs. KeyGens and cracks are not effective against the new system.
I think the real reason we still have remnants of the old system is Logos has hundreds of thousands of users who want everything - "right now!" Bob just said they have hired new people, are training them, and expanding office space.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
I think the real reason we still have remnants of the old system is Logos has hundreds of thousands of users who want everything - "right now!" Bob just said they have hired new people, are training them, and expanding office space.
I was at the Morris Proctor Logos Training Seminar in Seattle last week, and there were representatives from Logos there (including Bob Pritchett's father Dale, who is VP of Sales & Marketing). Someone official there -- can't remember who -- said they are moving towards having everything be download only, but it takes time. Given that there is another way of getting those resources to install (using Libronix, which is still available and still supported), they have other priorities: in particular getting the Logos 4 features to parity with L3. So...all in due time. Patience, Kevin and everyone.
I suspect that some of the publishing partners are still living in the dark ages when it comes to digital content, and it takes Logos a while to work with them to convince them that it's time to go with download only. There is also likely the problem of having lots of third-party inventory still to use up. They had a whole whack of it at the MP seminar which they were selling at a discount to seminar attendees. Of course I had to use L3 to install the titles I bought, but I was more than happy to do that.
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Rosie Perera said:
They had a whole whack of it at the MP seminar which they were selling at a discount to seminar attendees. Of course I had to use L3 to install the titles I bought, but I was more than happy to do that.
Goody! I'm going to Camp Logos next Monday & Tuesday in OKC.
I did run the script to convert all my Pre-Pubs to download only. I was hesitant but a friend at Logos convinced me it is the best route. I'm already glad I did because the Commentary on Psalms is in my library instead of the postal system. When that title first hit Community Pricing all our foreign friends were lamenting it was only available on CD and their shipping costs were too high. Having a download option for everything will be beneficial to so many.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
I'm going to Camp Logos next Monday & Tuesday in OKC.
Have fun! It really is a good seminar. Note that some of the products they have available for sale at a discount, they won't have enough of with them to let you take it home with you, so they'll have to have them shipped to you. More waiting (bummer). But I was lucky that all the ones I wanted they had. I got several items that had been on my wishlist for a while: Luther's Works (so now I can look up what was his crudest comment [:)]); The Preacher's Commentary series; The Bible Speaks Today NT commentary series; and Collegeville Catholic Reference Library, Version 3.
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Matthew C Jones said:
I did run the script to convert all my Pre-Pubs to download only. I was hesitant but a friend at Logos convinced me it is the best route. I'm already glad I did because the Commentary on Psalms is in my library instead of the postal system. When that title first hit Community Pricing all our foreign friends were lamenting it was only available on CD and their shipping costs were too high. Having a download option for everything will be beneficial to so many.
I've run that script a couple of times. You might still need to check back periodically and run it again if any community pricing product you ordered makes it into pre-pub status. That's what happened in my case. It defaulted to CD for some reason. But running the script again took care of it. There was a scary warning about how this is an irreversible process, but it said nothing about it being a one-time only process, so I took the risk, and it turned out to work fine. [:)]
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Matthew C Jones said:Kevin A. Purcell said:
As for the issue of this begin a contractual issue, I find that a hollow argument and I doubt it is the real reason.
Kevin, you've been around the block a few times and know about the archaic "By breaking this seal you acknowledge you have read the license agreement and accept it's terms" EULA. It is real and has stood up in court challenges.
You totally missed the point. I'm not talking about my relationship to Logos but the publishers relationship to Logos. So this has nothing to do with the conversation.
And so everyone understands, I am not howling with anger, but just keeping the issue front and center because for me it is a higher priority obviously than Logos sees it. A great stop gap method to save them time (I won't be calling to take their support staff's time) and to save me time (same reason) writing a simple addition to the Logos code to allow us to enter our own serial numbers so that we can add them would help a lot with this issue.
I know what the answer is going to be. What about piracy?
My answer is what about it. I am of the belief that software piracy is not that big a problem for companies. But that is another discussion I am willing to have in another place since it does not relate specifically to Logos Bible software per se.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Kevin A. Purcell said:
You totally missed the point. I'm not talking about my relationship to Logos but the publishers relationship to Logos
I'm not either. Logos does not hold the rights to the third party stuff. And unless you have given Power of Attorney to Logos to act on your behalf and break that seal they legally cannot bind you to the EULA. If the third party gives Logos Power of Attorney to enter serial numbers then Logos can deliver what you ask for. But not before something changes.
If I am counseling a couple with marital problems I don't have the power to force them both to reconcile. I may beg, plead, bribe, threaten but cannot succeed unless they choose to. When it comes to third party license agreements, it is between Logos & the third party. Nobody can force the third party to change their EULA.
If Logos ignored the legalities of the process it could possibly play out like this: I buy a third party CD, call Logos and read them the serial number over the phone, Logos activates the software, I return the unopened CD for a refund, I use the software. Some honest customer buys the CD and tries to activate without success. Now it is my word against the second buyer's word. To Logos it looks like somebody got a hold of my legitimate software and is trying to install it without having legally obtained the rights. Would you want to be the second buyer in this scenario?
Kevin A. Purcell said:I am of the belief that software piracy is not that big a problem for companies.
Keeping this on topic: I can assure you from personal observation, Logos has been the victim of piracy from the mid 1990s all the way up to the release of Version 4. Others have posted on these forums about Version 3's availability. When you consider the price of Scholar's Gold it is hard to say the losses aren't that big of a deal. It is an evil underbelly of the digital age but with "The Cloud" there will be a lot less of it succeeding.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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