Ability to do a search to discover repition.
I am studying John and I want to do a search on John both for English and Greek words that appear more than say 10 times in the book. Is there currently any way in Logos 4 to in effect say "show me all the words in English that appear in John more than 10 times?"
Thanks in advance for your help!
Comments
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BryceElliott said:
Is there currently any way in Logos 4 to in effect say "show me all the words in English that appear in John more than 10 times?"
one tool that may help some is the Word Tree found in Passage Analysis see the wiki page Word Tree
The larger the word, the more frequent it was found
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Bryce,
I'm looking at something that may help you do this...but in the mean time, I've always wondered why people want to do a search like this...?
Is is the idea of "frequency = emphasis?
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Robert,
Emphasis is exactly the reason I am looking for this. For instance, I was recently doing a study of Deut. and it struck me that the phrase "the Lord your God" was used a number of times. I decided to look it up and turns out that out of the 423 times it is used in the NIV in the OT, 263 of those are found in Deut. With that in mind, I was asking myself how many other things I miss because I am not paying attention....began to wonder if I couldn't structure some searches to help me "discover" these points in advance either in the English or in the root language. Hope this makes sense.
Thx for your help.
Bryce
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Thx for the response. Not sure that get's me what I am looking for, but you did clue me into a tool I have been looking for and was not aware of! Thx!
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Bryce,
Let me ask....(because I just don't get it) If repetition is a clue to importance then "kai" is the most important word in the NT!
Words are governed by subject matter...Romans uses certain words repeatedly and each chapter is slightly different because of it's subject matter....whereas Matthew has his own style and repeated words and phases...
But I guess I don't see how repetition means emphasized...sorry...it's probably just me.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Robert Pavich said:
But I guess I don't see how repetition means emphasized...sorry...it's probably just me.
Repetition is only one aspect of text analysis - raw data not conclusive proof. Frequency may provide information about:
- authorship
- composition date
- emphasis
- syntactic conventions
- language drift
- . . .
Watching the forums, I find that Logos is in a difficult position - keeping a balance between sufficient "pre-digestion" of the raw data to make it useful to the non-specialist without leading them to unfounded conclusions of which your "kai" as the most important word is a perfect example. You recognized the absurdity of the use of frequency alone as a determiner of importance.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Thanks for all your points! I wrote a nice long reply(then managed to delete it accidentally) explaining that I don't disagree with Robert's point in that I do believe that words are governed by subject matter. I also said that I don't use this type of tool as key determining factor in the process of establishing an understanding of a word in a particular passage rather only something to potentially lead me to some major themes/stylistic tools(e.g., use of "behold" in Matthew) of a book.
In any case, I found the tool I was looking for in Logos 3 - Vocabulary lists. Apparently they are going to release them in Logos 4 in 2nd Qtr. From that I concluded that both Robert and I were right. Him in that Logos didn't put see it as enough of a priority to put it in 4.0 or 4.0b, me in that they say they are going to release it some day. Actually that fits with the fact that this is not a primary tool for me either, just an ancillary one.
Take care,
Bryce
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Bryce, (and martha)
Thanks for fleshing out your thoughts, not only did that answer my Q but I learned a few things in the process....
Much appreciated to you both.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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MJ. Smith said:Robert Pavich said:
But I guess I don't see how repetition means emphasized...sorry...it's probably just me.
Repetition is only one aspect of text analysis - raw data not conclusive proof. Frequency may provide information about:
- authorship
- composition date
- emphasis
- syntactic conventions
- language drift
- . . .
Watching the forums, I find that Logos is in a difficult position - keeping a balance between sufficient "pre-digestion" of the raw data to make it useful to the non-specialist without leading them to unfounded conclusions of which your "kai" as the most important word is a perfect example. You recognized the absurdity of the use of frequency alone as a determiner of importance.
Good points Mary,
Also Robert, keep in mind that the type of word is important too. Grammatical terms like και deal with the structure of a thought and not its content. (There are, however, rare/uncommon grammatical terms like ου μη, that when combined catch your attention but the majority of them are not of not simply by repetition) Or, a long string statements, connected by καιs and then interrupted by a
lone αλλα can be a real emphasis marker. Repeated nouns and verbs, however, are often a sign of emphasis.For example, someone came up to my wife asking how to write in Hebrew והיה because it was the most common word in the Hebrew Bible, attaching some sort of deep meaning to the gloss "and it came to pass" (which in some cases is an over-translation). It's common because it's just the way to express many thoughts in Biblical Hebrew.
With that said, it would be nice to have a tool to highlight repetition within a pericope or book automatically or semi-automatically. Perhaps it could have options to exclude certain types of words so και wouldn't clutter things up. It would also be neat to be able to group synonyms (perhaps with the LN tagging) with the same highlighting. Of course, the actual work of determining what's important can only happen between our ears with the aid of context.
Prov. 15:23
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Kevin Becker said:
Good points Mary,
Mary is my sister, 9 years older and 4 inches shorter. My brother is John not Lazarus ... obviously my parents didn't think it all the way through. (And if you hadn't guessed, I'm actually Martha who is very used to being called Mary).
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Mary is my sister, 9 years older and 4 inches shorter.
I was wondering how you would respond! It was more entertaining than my response to posters who insist that my surname is Hooten.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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MJ. Smith said:Kevin Becker said:
Good points Mary,
Mary is my sister, 9 years older and 4 inches shorter. My brother is John not Lazarus ... obviously my parents didn't think it all the way through. (And if you hadn't guessed, I'm actually Martha who is very used to being called Mary).
Oops! I apologize [:$]
Prov. 15:23
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Dave Hooton said:
...my response to posters who insist that my surname is Hooten.
Isn't it Hootin' ? [;)]
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Hootenanny.
So, MJ, do you have insight into who wrote the fourth Gospel? Was it John or Lazarus?
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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is the "Important Words" in the passage guide a tool that gets at this? Run a pericope (or a whole book) and click on the biggest words and find out how many times they appear.
I recognize the limitations of frequency. But I also remember my first "bible class" in college that had me reading 1 Peter and paying attention to the most frequently used words (other than particles and pronouns, etc). It helped me see flow and contrast. It helped me realize Peter was actually writing a coherent "letter" and not just putting a bunch of religious words together. I discovered "suffering" (and consequently learned about context and purpose) and 'glory" and how those two theme played off each other.
Recently, I used frequency of "Holy Spirit" in Luke's writings to talk about an important contribution he made to NT theology and early Christian life. (and current!)Frequency studies are profitable. And you build on that with domain thinking, syntax, etc etc.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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MJ. Smith said:
Mary is my sister, . . . And if you hadn't guessed, I'm actually Martha who is very used to being called Mary)
Insert "Dave" for "Mary" and "father" for sister and you have my life story. Even people who don't know my dad call me Dave.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Repetition is frequently used by oral composers of narrative to draw attention to a particular thing. It can also be used to tie a passage together in a memorable way. Since most of the Bible was written to be read aloud to an audience, most of it is oral composition. In fact, John has several keywords which are important to his Gospel and are frequently repeated, e.g. abiding, testimony, word. Think of John 1. How many times does word appear? What is John doing here? He is fixing that word into our minds so that we remember it. For comparison, consider a hymn you sing in worship for the first time, which has a chorus. Which bit do you remember first? The chorus of course because you've heard/sung it most. Repetition is a hearer-friendly way of putting over a point you want people to grasp. I could go on but I'd better stop. It's a big part of my PhD thesis entitled Listening for Meaning. So, at the risk of repeating myself, repetition is frequently used by oral composers of narrative to draw attention to a particular thing.
[;)]
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I tried that and it is somewhat helpful, but not as precise as I had hoped for. I do use that tool though. Also, you still have to click each word to "discover" and I find that it takes more time than a simple report does.
Thx for the thought.
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Thank you Alan and Dan for those insights...you are helping me become a better bible student... and it's much appreciated.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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BryceElliott said:
I am studying John and I want to do a search on John both for English and Greek words that appear more than say 10 times in the book. Is there currently any way in Logos 4 to in effect say "show me all the words in English that appear in John more than 10 times?"
You can't do it in Logos 4, but you can do it in Logos 3. It's called a Vocabulary list.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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BryceElliott said:
In any case, I found the tool I was looking for in Logos 3 - Vocabulary lists.
Mark Barnes, are you trolling??? [A] Bryce had already discovered Vocabulary lists on his own . . . . [8-|]
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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MJ. Smith said:
I'm actually Martha who is very used to being called Mary
Thanks for these details. My wife and I have three boys (Jonathan, Wesley, Joshua) and a dog (currently Bo Dandy) - I am constantly getting them mixed up. I have in the last week even called the dog "Wesley" - but don't tell my son. [:)]
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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Dan DeVilder said:
Mark Barnes, are you trolling???
Bryce had already discovered Vocabulary lists on his own . . . . 
Doh! Sorry, I was trying to skip the chatter and skipped that too!
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Dan DeVilder said:MJ. Smith said:
Mary is my sister, . . . And if you hadn't guessed, I'm actually Martha who is very used to being called Mary)
Insert "Dave" for "Mary" and "father" for sister and you have my life story. Even people who don't know my dad call me Dave.
So we can call you Dan, Dave, Martha or Mary? [:D]
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