Beta ?

Allen

We are at Alpha 16 as of 3/24/10. When will we see Beta? and how long will that process be?

I am not trying to be negative, but the question that is on my mind and maybe others is, "How long o' logos?" :-)

The previous version was abandoned before it was finished (I understand why, so that's not the issue.) but, you

have had a finished V.3 and V.4 product including a recent update for the windows platform.

However, the mac platform is still woefully behind. Some of my books are for V.3 and some of my books are for V.4,

so mac users have incomplete libraries in both versions...

I know you have recently added 5 or 6 additional mac programers recently and I appreciate that.

If 5 or 6 is good then would 10 or 12 be better? If upgrades to the windows version slows down a bit... well I'm sure

the mac people would be willing to share opportunities for patience building opportunities with our fellow pc logos users.

I think back to when mac people were advised that the completion of V.3 was "coming soon". I have learned that soon

can be a long time.

I would imagine that those in programing have a better idea of how long "soon" is. Please share that information with us mac users. Depending on the update of information from logos, I will be able to make an informed decision as to what I should do. Go back to a PC? Do the parallels thing and that expense? Or if given a time frame of what "coming soon" means, then continue to wait?

Please give consideration to my question. We are 4-5 months in Alpha testing, given this information an "uninformed guess" would a year or so to complete Alpha then Beta then release fully operational product.

If this is going to be true then please tell us, so I and many others will know what we need to do.

SIncerely,

Allen Adkins

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DominicM

we were about 2-3months in beta before it got released, however as the main issue is coding the interface rather than the application (from what I understand) , I expect it will be faster..

Also your Alpha is already almost att he level our beta was while we were testing..

However, Truthfully, how long is a piece of string.?. no one AFAIK can give you an absolute definite date.

TCBlack

We are at Alpha 16 as of 3/24/10. When will we see Beta? and how long will that process be?

As Dominick stated, it was I think, not quite four months as my memory goes. So the beta to gold cycle has at least some degree of "guessability". Though since MAC and PC are different animals, that is subject to interpretation.

The recent post What's up on the Mac? should be adequate to show that Logos doesn't know either.

Also your Alpha is already almost att he level
our beta was while we were testing..

And yet I wouldn't know whether that is sufficient to move it from Alpha to beta. There are going to be some big expectations placed on a beta over and against an alpha. And there are already some big alpha expectations.

I would personally guess that Logos is going to keep the label at Alpha until it's blatantly obvious that it's beta. I would presume that switchover will come when the MAC actually does hit feature parity with the PC.

Cameron Watters (Faithlife)

Please give consideration to my question.

This question comes up quite a bit and it's addressed in item #4 in the FAQ (linked in my signature). The best answers we can give so far include two separate statements by Bob Pritchett, our CEO. One in the forums, the other on the blog, the latter of which was posted last week.

Recent alphas have seen steady progress, however, there are still a number of major features that aren't yet available in the alpha, including:

Highlighting
Morph Search
Notes
Syntax Search
Reverse Interlinears

These features, along with others, need to be in place before we call it a beta.

However, the mac platform is still woefully behind. Some of my books are for V.3 and some of my books are for V.4, so mac users have incomplete libraries in both versions

Except for the case of resources for which we have currently have no display engine on the Mac (Clause Visualizer, Reverse Interlinear and Timelines), Logos 4 Mac works with the same resources as Logos 4 Windows. Once resource display is written for the aforementioned resources, there won't be any discrepancy between which resources are supported on Mac vs. Windows. If you still have V.3 resources in your V.4 library, I don't think that's a Mac vs. PC issue.

I can honestly say that we're not concealing information about the dates for beta and/or a final release. As Bob said in his blog post, "...we can't say, because we don't know." Software development is non-deterministic; we're regularly solving novel problems.

Pat Flanakin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/108999#Comment_108999

I agree that those are major items that need to be in a beta since I use those most in the Windows version, so I am awaiting a Beta release before first attempting to utilize the Mac version for any productive use.

David Buckham

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/108973#Comment_108973

Allen,

Forget Beta. Everyone really wants the full version, and I think that is what your question is about. Maybe I am assuming though.

This issue has been addressed a few times now on the threads. This is your first post, according to the counter. I would encourage you to go to http://community.logos.com/forums/t/6747.aspx and read questions 4 and 5 and follow their links.

Bob said back in the end of November, his best guess (not an actual timeline), is that Logos Mac would be about 6 months behind Windows. If literal, that would put us at the end of May for our full version. I know from reading the forums, L4 Windows has been in the works for years, but L4 Mac since maybe Mac 1.0 came out (a little over a year ago). The Mac version is developing much faster than the Windows version because much of the base code is shared. I say this only to state my opinion, which is, I don't think Logos4Mac will be in Beta half as long as Windows was.

I doubt we will see any timeline (other than guesses) for Mac completion. Every time Logos has posted a Mac timeline it gets ugly (it goes back to the 90s if I remember).

Just like you, I am waiting for "soon".

all about Christ,
David Buckham

David Buckham

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/109007#Comment_109007

Cameron,

Sorry, it looks like we were answering at the same time.

So Allen, ditto what Cameron says...after all, he works at Logos as a Mac Developer!

all about Christ,

David

Roger Feenstra

so I and many others will know what we need to do.

I approached it this way. There are 3 things I could do.

1. I could get the alpha version and have some fun watching it develop.

2. I could do nothing and just wait for the final version.

3. I could not buy Logos and go to company "B".

I don't see any other options. Since Logos is a privately owned company, they can take as long as they need. It is the customer's choice whether or not Logos' timeline, philosophy, methodology is acceptable. Obviously, Logos wants to get their product developed. I don't think they're sitting around playing video games. Some of the developers are so consumed by it that they answer forum questions from home! So they are constantly thinking, thinking, thinking.

I jumped on board with Alpha 9 and I have enjoyed being a part of the process (must have that pioneering spirit). I remember that before I made my decision to go with L4 Mac alpha I read the Mac Update on the Logos website which said, (paraphrasing), if you don't want to go through this process of alpha testing in instability, then wait. I think they've made it very clear.

Alpha 16 is working great for me right now. Yes, I would like Interlinear capabilities, but I know it will come.

What is another month, six months, one year in the scope of things? I didn't have Logos before December and i somehow was able to study the Bible and teach the Word. I now have it and I am still doing the same thing, studying and teaching. In a year L4 will be better and i will still be doing the same thing, studying and teaching, Lord willing. I need to focus on the Word and not the technology. Technology comes and goes, but the Word of God stands forever.

Alan Macgregor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/109029#Comment_109029

must have that pioneering spirit

I thought all Americans had the pioneering spirit. I thought it was part of your DNA. [;)]

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, …

Think of what is being grown in you by this wait. Surely, God is good, even/especially when He makes me wait. [:)]

Cameron Watters (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/109029#Comment_109029

Some of the developers are so consumed by it that they answer forum questions from home!

Tom actually answers forum questions while on vacation.

Wade Bishop

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/109051#Comment_109051

my wife would BEAT ME if i did that! LOL

Allen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/109029#Comment_109029

Roger,

Brother I don't understand what your reply has to do with my post? But, welcome to Logos. I have been a Logos user for many years. Way back when a license was on a 3.5" floppy disk.

I agree with you that we don't need technology to study the Bible. My comments was not about that.

My comments were to ask for a timeline and to ask for more resources to be moved from windows to mac development. An example of what I'm talking about would be how the Amish come together and build a barn in one day, while a smaller group would take weeks or maybe even months.

This is only an analogy so, no explanation is needed that barns and software are different.

Grace and Peace,

Allen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/109046#Comment_109046

Right you are Roger.

But we don't want to be stingy with our opportunities to grow in patience do we?[:)]

Grace and Peace,

Allen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/109051#Comment_109051

As much as I want V.4 finished, that would be a bad idea. [:D]

Thanks

Allen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/109052#Comment_109052

Sounds like the words of a happily married man! [8-|]

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/109143#Comment_109143

My comments were to ask for a timeline and to ask for more resources to be moved from windows to mac development. An example of what I'm talking about would be how the Amish come together and build a barn in one day, while a smaller group would take weeks or maybe even months.

This is only an analogy so, no explanation is needed that barns and software are different.

Ah, you should read about Brooks's law. [H]

Allen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/109154#Comment_109154

Thanks Todd.

Both funny and informative.[:D]

Allen

Roger Feenstra

If this is going to be true then please tell us, so I and many others will know what we need to do

Sorry if I misunderstood you, but I was replying to this sentence. My technology explanation was ancillary.

Btw. I too used Logos when the very first edition came out. Not only with floppies, but with dial-up. I used to sell the product (maybe I sold you yours?).

So...been around Logos a while.

Peace

Roger Feenstra

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/109148#Comment_109148

But we don't want to be stingy with our opportunities to grow in patience do we?

Can't argue with that!

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/109051#Comment_109051

Tom actually answers forum questions while on vacation.

And at 11:30pm! Does he ever spend any time with that beautiful young lady who is peeking over his shoulder. [8-|]

Tom Philpot (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/109681#Comment_109681

And at 11:30pm!

That's the downside of having all Logos 4 Mac Forums sent to your email and then having all your work email pulled to your phone. I tend to look at my phone in the morning and in the evenings, so it seems like I'm *always* in the forums

Does he ever spend any time with that beautiful young lady who is peeking over his shoulder.

Yes. She's quite an amazing woman! She's very supportive of my work at Logos, and understands that I can be a bit driven. I definitely married up!

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/109704#Comment_109704

She's quite an amazing woman! She's very supportive of my work at Logos, and understands that I can be a bit driven. I definitely married up!

And we appreciate you both very much [Y]

Gary Byrd

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/109712#Comment_109712

It still looks to me to be about 12 out for a full GM ...

Not trying to sound discouraging but money is hard to come by these days and people look at this type of purchase as an investment. Nobody wants to spend $500 - $1,500 on an application that is feature deficient with only guesses as to a timeline of when the product will be complete.

IMO ... I think it is only fair to potential customers to give some sort of timeline instead of just " soon".

In my case I have spent several hundred $ on L4 and do not use it at all simply because it does not have the features to make it usable for me. It ends up being a time waster instead of a time saver so in the mean time I opt for either Accordance or MacSword.

I am sure that L4M will get there and when it does it will be the superior product, but I would not get my hopes up for any time soon.

Ken

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/110019#Comment_110019

I agree with Gary....this is a major investment...

When I upgraded to L4, I did so because I misinterpreted the "coming soon" announcement for the Mac product. Now, I am paying a lot of money and I am not able to use the software that I paid for. In fact, because I needed some resources in a working app, I did go ahead and spend more money on Accordance and some resources there.

My Logos library is a major investment and a serious tool. I decided to go electronic because I am a missionary who is very mobile due to our context. Carrying heavy books around is not an option.

Through Logos I have access to all of my resources, but this process of waiting and "tinkering" with L4 is counter-productive (let's not even count the countless hours of indexing after ever alpha release). I am in a bind, but all I can do is wait...so I wait.

Allen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/110019#Comment_110019

Gary and Kenneth,

Well said guys... "Coming soon" is insufficient.

I still think Logos is great software, but I am feeling a little left in the "wilderness"...

Allen

Stephen Ashton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/110101#Comment_110101

Well said guys... "Coming soon" is insufficient.
I still think Logos is great software, but I am feeling a little left in the "wilderness"...

I don't work for Logos and have no affiliation with the company. I don't want to be labeled as a Logos 'fanboy' and certainly wouldn't attempt to defend everything they've done in the past with regard to development for the Mac OS, but I think you're being a little harsh here.

It has been clear from the very first that the Mac version of L4 is at the alpha stage in its development. It has also been clear from the start that the Logos team are not going to commit to a timescale until the application is significantly more advanced. You are right that it is a major investment when so many Bible software packages are freely available, but you made a decision to purchase an upgrade to L4 based on this information.

I guess that now you probably wish that you hadn't bought the upgrade and I understand your frustration - with yourself as much as anybody else. However, at this point you have a choice, plain and simple:

Don't waste time trying to use unfinished software or trawling the forum looking for answers to the 'When?' question. Sit back an wait for the 'It's in beta!' or the 'It's finished!' announcement.

Get involved. Post bug reports. Comment on the issues other users are having. Answer the questions from the Logos developers. You never know, you might help them finish the software sooner or contribute towards something that makes the software better.

I am feeling a little left in the "wilderness"...

There is a new public alpha release every two weeks. Tom, Cameron and others from the development team take an active interest in what's happening on this forum. As far as I'm concerned, I don't feel in the wilderness at all. I'm enjoying the software as it evolves and I feel that my comments and questions are being heard and considered.

Stay positive and remember the fourth fruit (Galatians 5:22).

Alan Macgregor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/110201#Comment_110201

Stay positive and remember the fourth fruit (Galatians 5:22).

I am finding that involvement with the Alpha phase gives me a sense of familiarity with the program as it develops. Every release there is new stuff to learn, at a pace I can cope with! Also, we are blessed with great bunch of developers, who work their socks off to read our logs and respond to my daft questions as well as do the real work of writing the UI. The forum is a great place to learn new tips and tricks as well.

Even over here in Scotland I don't feel left out, but part of a team who are helping to create something really quite special.

Every blessing

Alan

Roger Feenstra

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/110201#Comment_110201

Stay positive and remember the fourth fruit (Galatians 5:22).

One of the missing fruit in many of the forum discussions [:'(]

Allen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/110201#Comment_110201

Stephen,

Glad you're enjoying your software. Let me say, you are entitled to your opinion the same as I am.

But because I or someone else post a comment that laments the process of the mac software development, does not make me or anyone else void of the fruit of the Spirit or a pessimist.

While I have voiced concerns about the development... I have not said anything unkind about logos or it's employees, or call their character into question...

On the contrary, I very much like logos and their customer service has always been great!

My advice brother is before you post something is to read what is said (digest it) and then read your response before you post it.

Grace and Peace,

Allen

Patrick S.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/110224#Comment_110224

and people look at this type of purchase as an investment. Nobody wants to spend $500 - $1,500 on an application that is feature deficient with only guesses as to a timeline of when the product will be complete.

IMO ... I think it is only fair to potential customers to give some sort of timeline instead of just " soon".

In my case I have spent several hundred $ on L4 and do not use it at all simply because it does not have the features to make it usable for me. It ends up being a time waster instead of a time saver so in the mean time I opt for either Accordance or MacSword.

I am finding that involvement with the Alpha phase gives me a sense of familiarity with the program as it develops. Every release there is new stuff to learn, at a pace I can cope with!

Regarding this topic generally I would comment a few things:

I don't even bother to use the Mac version yet. It's an alpha, it's not even feature complete yet. And I don't in any way say this negatively - it's just the reality. I don't see any point in harassing the developers about when feature A or B will be in the alpha version. Just let the developers get on with it. To be honest I think it's pretty amazing that they share the time they do in the forum responding to queries. When the beta comes out I'll reinstall and start hammering it to help developers crush bugs so I (we) can get a stable product.
I too consider Logos an investment (esp. after buying the New International Commentary !) so being an investment I don't mind waiting for it to mature. Logos have made a commitment to deliver an up to date Mac version. They'll have to deliver - and I'm sure they will.
I don't see that the user community are influencing too much the design of the Mac version being built, it is essentially the Windows version UI concept coded as native Mac UI, but that's OK. The UI metaphor delivered with Windows product is pretty good. On the other hand that the underlying engine accessing the book/index databases is essentially a Windows app wrapped in an interface layer - well I'm personally not thrilled about (as people will have seen from some of my other posts)... but we'll see.
To Gary and the others getting a bit frustrated with the delay I would say - given that we (all) agree that our Logos purchases are such an investment (waiting to come to fruition) and if they need a working tool now - why not install VMware Fusion or Parallels and run the Logos 4 Windows version (the Logos license permits that). What's a (short term) investment of $50 or so against the (long term) investment of our Logos libraries? I'm using the Windows version (and I'm a Mac zealot) in a VMware Fusion full screen Win XP virtual machine (using Mac Spaces so it's separate) and I just ignore Windows itself.

In the big scheme of things it's worth the wait - and running the Windows version in VMware I don't even need to get challenged to increase the fruit of patience!

p.s. - surely MacSword can't be compared to Logos 4. I've used MacSword, it's a great little free open source app, but Logos 4 it ain't.

p.p.s. - I already had a copy of VMware Fusion so it was an easy decision to install Logos 4 Windows.

p.p.p.s - how does one setup signatures (like Alan Macgregor's) for posting?

Alan Macgregor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/110854#Comment_110854

how does one setup signatures (like Alan Macgregor's) for posting?

Patrick

At the top right of this screen you will see your name and Edit next to it. Click on Edit.

That brings up this screen:

Click on Site Options. Scroll down to the Signature box and put in what you want. Click Save at the bottom of the screen and you're done.

Every blessing

Alan

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/110848#Comment_110848

My advice brother is before you post something is to read what is said (digest it) and then read your response before you post it.

Someone has a very thin skin. I thought Stephen made an excellent response to your complaint. When you called Logos' response "insufficient", it sounded rather impatient to me also. Perhaps Stephen is not the only one who needs your advice.

Logos made estimates of the release date of the original Mac version, and got badly burned in the process. I don't blame them for their unwillingness to predict that which cannot be reasonably estimated. In the years before that first release, I complained frequently about the lack of communication. That is no longer a problem. Communication is excellent.

In fact, Bob P did make a prediction in November or December that may come back to bite him. [:D]

Donovan R. Palmer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/110854#Comment_110854

To Gary and the others getting a bit frustrated with the delay I would say - given that we (all) agree that our Logos purchases are such an investment (waiting to come to fruition) and if they need a working tool now - why not install VMware Fusion or Parallels and run the Logos 4 Windows version (the Logos license permits that). What's a (short term) investment of $50 or so against the (long term) investment of our Logos libraries? I'm using the Windows version (and I'm a Mac zealot) in a VMware Fusion full screen Win XP virtual machine (using Mac Spaces so it's separate) and I just ignore Windows itself.

I agree. My primary focus is to run L4 Windows on Fusion. When we are at a beta, then I will most likely switch my primary usage to L4 Mac.

As far as setting expectations, how long does one expect it to take to see the gap closed between L4 Windows and L4 Mac? The trouble is that development on L4 Windows has not stopped, so the goal posts are constantly moving. Pragmatically, I have always said in these forums that IF the Mac version ever catches up completely with the Windows version, it will take a while... a long while. Also, pragmatically, I sort of figure that there will always be a "lead" product where you see most of the new features first. This is often the case with companies like Evernote, Skype, etc. who run on multiple operating systems. Generally it is the Windows version that leads the way in features simply because that is where the bulk of the consumer market is.

David Buckham

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/111155#Comment_111155

Seriously, how many times does this argument have to rehashed?!?

Allen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/111149#Comment_111149

Mr Caviness,

If you think I have thin skin, then plainly say so. A man of your age should not worry about mincing your words. I would suggest that the reason you thought Stephen made an excellent response to my original post is because you both confuse argumentum ad hominem for logic and rhetoric in debating real issues...

The issue is, Mac users have been waiting for more than 2 years for a finished product.

No amount of "personal distractions" will change that. Nor the questions that surely follow.

My opinion is that forums ( other than the FAQ's) are usually a waste of time. This has been reaffirmed by you and a few others.

Peace out...

Allen

Fr. JM

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/111285#Comment_111285

allen,

I think that what is a "finished product" may be at issue. I find Logos 1.2.2 a great program for regular use, and it functions as I would expect a finished product to function. If I had no knowledge of Logos 3 for PC, that would be the end of it. But, as is lamentably part of fallen human nature, I see that PC users had more, I desired it. Logos is working to make version 4 have feature parity, or at least something close to it (we may get a little more, or a little less). I don't find Logos 4 alpha 16 ready for my daily use yet; I still use 1.2.2 for that. But based on the progress I've seen, I see it becoming my regular software by summer at the latest.

Pray for the Logos team regularly!

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/111149#Comment_111149

In fact, Bob P did make a prediction in November or December that may come back to bite him.

Jack, Bob hedged that time line enough that no one will really be surprised if Logos misses it. Besides, what are we going to do? Drop the investment we have made and go buy something else? Doubtful.

Jerry Walker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/111248#Comment_111248

Seriously, how many times does this argument have to rehashed?!?

I think as long as it takes, to get a clear answer to what many of us thinks is a pretty reasonable question!

Jerry Walker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/111285#Comment_111285

My opinion is that forums ( other than the FAQ's) are usually a waste of time. This has been reaffirmed by you and a few others.

Peace out...

Can't totally agree with this maybe part of it. While there is many great people in the forum who offer great support for those of us who are not as advance as others. But in the same vain some of those same people are not the most friendliest people to deal with. Often times I see in the forum many guys seeming to flex their knowledge of the software, what I mean by this is they answer questions that others have already answered in an attempt to show that they know just as much as the other guy. And it really becomes a big turn off most of the time. Sometimes I don't even asked questions in fear of being talked to bad for not knowing what others might think to be a very easy or basic thing to do. But I do understand where you are coming from. What I am learning to do is pray and have patience until things get better, and they will get better.

Allen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/111297#Comment_111297

Jerry,

Well said man.

Thanks,

Allen

Patrick Brentlinger

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/111302#Comment_111302

I can totally understand everyone's frustration. I am an application usability expert working to develop web applications. So I am very familiar with your frustration and the oddity of time line prediction.

I am actually quite pleased to be in the alpha phase of this project, as it appears to me that the development team are looking for user feedback as they progress through the development life cycle. Getting that feedback is imperative for applications to be truly useful to us. So I will run both the windows version in my vmware fusion instance and the alpha locally so that I can be of some service to this development group. I understand the challenges they face. I just hope they can get the application to feel like a native mac application and not just a windows application in a shiny wrapper.

Stephen Ashton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/111319#Comment_111319

the oddity of time line prediction

Patrick, you're right. This is the problem. The development team are clearly 'once burned, twice shy' with regard to timescales.

Actually, this is fine by me. Actions speak louder than words. So a significant new public alpha release every fortnight says a lot more than a tentative date several months down the line.

Patrick S.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/111302#Comment_111302

Hi Allen (Adkins)

You might want to change your forum display name from being your e-mail address, because you'll find that website 'scrapers' (not associated with Logos of course) will pull your e-mail address off as it is in clearly recognisable e-mail format and then you'll find your SPAM e-mail load shooting up.

You can change it in your Logos account settings page.

Just a suggestion.

Cheers

Allen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/111543#Comment_111543

Thanks Patrick

Gary Byrd

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/111553#Comment_111553

It's not the fact that it is in alpha, its not the fact that it is feature deficient, we all understood that when we signed up for the alpha. This never has been the issue ... the issue is that we can not get an official time frame of when we might be looking at a GM.

We understand that "Coming Soon" is a relative term, but you have to agree that were not talking about $20 either. In some cases were looking at more than a $1,000 ... Personally, i do not think that it would be unwise to simply say that "Coming Soon" actually means in about 6-8 months, or 10 -12 months. It may actually, help people make a better decision.

Nobody is is trying to speak negatively about Logos or the developers working on the Mac side ... I am their biggest fan and want them to get it right.

However, can you seriously, with a straight face actually suggest to people that they should purchase Parrallels or Fusion plus a copy of Windows, just to run Logos 4 for Windows ... that is still feature incomplete? C'mon ... How could you even offer that as a viable solution? Who wants to spend the extra money to begin with? Who wants the hassle? Maybe some don't mind ... but me, I'll just use another product and tinker around with L4M until it becomes a bit more usable.

Mike Binks

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/111610#Comment_111610

My problem is that I don't want the program ever to be 'feature complete'!

I want to see it getting better and better.

Being a simple soul, and blessed with the fact that I have had few problems with the iterations, and not needing much in the way of the the fancy add ons, I am finding the current versions pretty usable so I don't much care if it is called Alpha Beta or Charlie.

Now I do have some hymn presentation software that thinks it is 'feature complete' and doesn't seem to have been upgraded for some years. That is a pain - because I don't think it is feature complete.

Feel free to leave me any recommendations for a better option - I would appreciate it.

Tootle pip

Mike

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/111610#Comment_111610

It's not the fact that it is in alpha, its not the fact that it is feature deficient, we all understood that when we signed up for the alpha. This never has been the issue ... the issue is that we can not get an official time frame of when we might be looking at a GM.

We understand that "Coming Soon" is a relative term, but you have to agree that were not talking about $20 either. In some cases were looking at more than a $1,000 ... Personally, i do not think that it would be unwise to simply say that "Coming Soon" actually means in about 6-8 months, or 10 -12 months. It may actually, help people make a better decision.

I can't find the post now as the forum software does not have a viable search function. Back in December (I believe), Bob Pritchett posted (I paraphrase from memory) If you promise not to hold me to it, in about 6 months the Mac and Windows versions will be practically identical in operation. It does not get any more official than that.

However, can you seriously, with a straight face actually suggest to people that they should purchase Parrallels or Fusion plus a copy of Windows, just to run Logos 4 for Windows ... that is still feature incomplete?

It works for me, but then, I had been using that configuration long before L-1 Mac was released.

I'll just use another product and tinker around with L4M until it becomes a bit more usable.

If that works for you, do it. I am also using another product in parallel with L-4 Windows, and I just tinker with L-4 Mac.

Believe me, I understand frustration. I have been anticipating a Mac version since Logos first announced they were developing a Mac version (was that 2005 or 2006?). Then, the problem was lack of any communication. Today, communication is much, much better. But we still do not know when feature parity will arrive.

EDIT: I agree with Mike in hoping that Logos never decides that all features are complete and stops adding features.

Patrick S.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/111610#Comment_111610

However, can you seriously, with a straight face actually suggest to people that they should purchase Parrallels or Fusion plus a copy of Windows, just to run Logos 4 for Windows ... that is still feature incomplete? C'mon ... How could you even offer that as a viable solution? Who wants to spend the extra money to begin with? Who wants the hassle? Maybe some don't mind ... but me, I'll just use another product and tinker around with L4M until it becomes a bit more usable.

{Looking in mirror} Yep, face is still on right.

I think some people are forgetting that we are not primarily buying a Windows software package or a Mac software package, but books, and not just any book. The software is just the wrapper. Some people want a wrapper in a better OS - they hang out here.

I didn't say that you or anyone had to buy a virtualisation product. I said (in essence) if people wanted to get access to the books then hey, one way to do it today is slum it with Windows for a while until the Mac version was released. My pride can stretch to that.

I got 25% off my base scholar's library package and had VMware already on my Mac with a legit copy of XP I got in a box of Cheerios (did I get the name of an American breakfast cereal right?) so hey, why not. So I have access to the books and I haven't had to pay for two complete packages - how much does that cost? More than a copy of VMware I'm sure.

So at the end of the day I'm enjoying full, released, Logos 4,being productive and not getting an ulcer. Who's smiling [;)]

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/111949#Comment_111949

a legit copy of XP I got in a box of Cheerios (did I get the name of an American breakfast cereal right?)

You got the name correct, but Cracker Jacks usually has better prizes. [8-|]

Stephen Ashton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/111801#Comment_111801

I agree with Mike in hoping that Logos never decides that all features are complete and stops adding features.

Me too!

Experience of the PC platform suggests that more features will be added as time goes on. I hope I'm right! [:)]

Alan Macgregor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/112057#Comment_112057

hope I'm right!

I hope you are too. L4 in both platforms has a long way to go to catch up with L3. For instance, the Copy Verses facility in L3 is customisable, selectable and no further than a single click away.

However, I'm sure that L4 will get there. Already L4Mac is more than a match for LMac 1.2.2. I haven't used it now for over a week and I don't anticipate using it again. L3 is a different story. I need it for my research work on my venerable (5-year-old) Toshiba M200 Tablet. L4 just doesn't cut it yet in syntactical and morphological searches. But I am sure that, given time, it will.