Designed by Americans for Americans....
... or more precisely by United States-ers for United States-ers....
This could be the motto for Logos 4.0 for the big sales pitch which date is apparently already set in stone.
Granted we, outside the US, are surely among the minority as users of Logos products, nevertheless it appears that our very real concerns have not been adequately addresses regarding the issue of downloading. The most that we have heard is that one of the Logos techs has put in for this "feature request" and they will try to get it into 4.0 (though this appears unlikely).
The vast majority of countries do not have the unlimited download plans which are so common in the US. But, even in the US, mobile warriors must contend with data caps when they take their computers on the road. All of these plans offer either serious price penalties for going over the download limit (the case with my mobile broadband) or limit the bandwidth (my DSL drops down to 64 KB/s) once the cap is reached.
For those who live outside of the United States, the ability to control downloads is not an optional extra to a program. It is a core component. It is not a feature but a necessity. If it is not in 4.0, then 4.0 is not ready for international release.
Those updating from Logos 3, from outside of the US, will need to be very clearly warned about the level of downloading involved in such an upgrade. They will need to be clearly told that a failure to turn off the internet access of the program could well result in significant downloading as resources are upgraded or modified and that the cost of exceeding their monthly internet quota is their own responsibility.
As for myself: in ten days time, I will be on annual leave for a month. During this time, I will only have access to my mobile broadband plan which is capped at 5 GB/month. It is very likely that I will be unable to participate in the Beta program if it keeps insisting on downloading very large resources which I never use (any of the reverse interlinears).
Comments
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Damian McGrath said:
The vast majority of countries do not have the unlimited download plans which are so common in the US.
Many others have been concerned about this and have requested control over the Update process which is the "feature request" mentioned above. Then there is the issue of genuine missing resources which most desire to have addressed from v3, but additional control is required for those who do not want to use deliberately missing resources and Bob Pritchett has mentioned the ability to hide and unhide these and manage the downloading/updating consequences.
I certainly want to see these features become a reality and I think Logos will want to avoid the inevitable criticism that the current policy will attract from its projected new users as well as cross-graders (even in the USA). I think it is fair to point out that the Beta downloads are much greater because the upgraded resources and subsequent updates need to be pushed in order to meet deadlines for production, and they want all beta testers to be on the same "page". DVD's cannot do the job (I'm still waiting in Oz), but they will [won't they!] be available to cross-graders and new users as occurred with the Mac release (the Libronix v3 Update web page has always been clear about this). With v4 the issue will be the background automatic updates.
So meanwhile, i have to watch my Usage Meter. It's improving at 60% of 4000 MB after 53% of the month. I might squeeze in a projected 1.1 to 1.5 GB in the last 2 hours of the month so i don't get an excess download charge as the remainder will spill into the new month!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
I think it is fair to point out that the Beta downloads are much greater because the upgraded resources and subsequent updates need to be pushed in order to meet deadlines for production, and they want all beta testers to be on the same "page"
Dave,
Thanks for the response. I know that the tone of my initial post was intemperate - 1/2 from not having a good day and 1/2 from not really seeing the problem addressed.
As I have mentioned elsewhere, I actually have a large download cap at home/office (though even the on-peak element of that is very quickly being chewed through). My concern is a lack of clarity even for Beta users about the size of the downloads ("could be very large" is not the language I would use to describe well over 1GB of downloads). This suggests that there is still a lack of awareness about how important this issue is.
When it comes to those upgrading, they will be given the choice to upgrade via the internet. As a result, they will need to be aware that this will involve a very considerable download so that they can make the choice to purchase a resource DVD. The download will be, I'm guessing, significantly greater than the ones we have so far experienced as more and more resources are rebuilt for 4.0. Those with large libraries, who are also inclined to be early adopters, could face many GBs of downloads.
I remain concerned about whether I will have the choice to, in future, block the download of certain books as they are upgraded. I have used this very frequently with Logos 3.0 when on my mobile broadband or towards the end of the month when I was nearing the DSL cap at home.
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Damian McGrath said:
... or more precisely by United States-ers for United States-ers....
I understand the frustration... over the years I have felt decisions by Logos to be 'US Centric', and as an international customer felt let down by those decisions. At the same time though we are in the minority and as indivduals we are but a drop in the bucket of their total customer base so decisions are not going to be made with your primary needs in mind... that said they do want to operate in a global market so do need to take the needs and limitations of interational customers serioiusly. So its a difficult balancing act they face.... and sometimes as international customers we do feel the need to say, 'What about me?'.
As Dave suggested the amount of downloads should settle down outside of this beta process... I thnk that is something the probably didn't stress enough in putting the beta program out there... maybe they ddin't want to scare everyone away. Assuming one was working from a DVD for base package, one might still have other third party products that also require updating so outside of beta I think inital install could be taking on unsuspecting user if they have purchased outside a base package - and indexing will be taxing in that situation.
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The concern about control and management is legit. I am sure Logos is glad you offer this insight.
The irony of this thread is that all of the forum complaints I remember reading over the past months from non-US consumers run along the lines,
"can I download this so I don't have to pay for a DVD to be shipped."
"Can I download this so I don't have to wait for shipping to XYZ."
So I would suggest that the general approach of everything being downloadable is a response to non-US users.0 -
Joe Miller said:
The irony of this thread...
Thanks, Joe! ... because we really thought we were answering the biggest complaint of non-US users! :-)
This is the point of the beta -- to find the problems. By definition, everyone at Logos headquarters is, um, at Logos headquarters. So we're not as familiar with the international issues, though we try to be. And besides, we keep hearing from our politicians that our country is way behind the world in broadband Internet access...
We are responding, and are putting in more controls over Internet use and downloading.
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Bob Pritchett said:Joe Miller said:
The irony of this thread...
Thanks, Joe! ... because we really thought we were answering the biggest complaint of non-US users! :-)
This is the point of the beta -- to find the problems. By definition, everyone at Logos headquarters is, um, at Logos headquarters. So we're not as familiar with the international issues, though we try to be. And besides, we keep hearing from our politicians that our country is way behind the world in broadband Internet access...
We are responding, and are putting in more controls over Internet use and downloading.
Beta program is a special case and something we have to live with if we want to particpate...but I really don't think it was fully outlined the sort of downloads that would be required over such a short time period... and that is where it does come across as not thinking of international customers.
We do appreciate the downloads Bob, so don't get that wrong...now only if I could download Bible Study Magazine instead of paying exhorborant postage to get it by snail mail a couple of months after US receives it....
Once we are all up and running on L4 (which could be painful for international customers depending on how many of the pre Feb 2006 resources we hav been told to leave out need re-building ) .... chances are we will download less because we will purchase less because we won't want to go through the re-indexing everytime we add a single resource. Particularly if that process happens automatically and we can't control when and where that happens.....
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Bob Pritchett said:Joe Miller said:
The irony of this thread...
Thanks, Joe! ... because we really thought we were answering the biggest complaint of non-US users! :-)
This is the point of the beta -- to find the problems. By definition, everyone at Logos headquarters is, um, at Logos headquarters. So we're not as familiar with the international issues, though we try to be. And besides, we keep hearing from our politicians that our country is way behind the world in broadband Internet access...
We are responding, and are putting in more controls over Internet use and downloading.
Just to put balance to the discussion, I have no problem with the large amount of download and most of the potential customers here in Czech would not have it either. The BIGGEST problem for Logos gaining more customers here is the availability of Bibles in our languages. All other resources you don't need in other than English. But Bible is different. You need to put it to your sermon text in our language, because you read it. If I use a quotation from some other resource, I don't need to read it, just to explain, but not so Bible. I need to use the local translation.
I am very happy about the download trend with new Logos. Getting regular mail is very problematic and expensive here in Europe. To be able to get the program and all the resources by (even very big) download, is just great. But that's just my little 2 cents.
Bohuslav
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Andrew, you wrote, "Once we are all up and running on L4 (which could be painful for international customers depending on how many of the pre Feb 2006 resources we hav been told to leave out need re-building ) .... chances are we will download less because we will purchase less because we won't want to go through the re-indexing everytime we add a single resource. Particularly if that process happens automatically and we can't control when and where that happens....."
I will borrow an expression that you can understand, "bad form" Bob has ALREADY said they are working on increasing the end-user controls to take into consideration the genuine concerns from those who have upload limits. So whining about "I may just buy less..." does not reflect a very respectful attitude toward what has ALREADY been responded to with graciousness. Ignoring Bob's response just so you can get in a few digs quite ill-mannered and I don't understand that attitude at all!0 -
BTW Andrew, here is an entire thread where Logos has encouraged all users (US and International) to share how they can improve user controls...
http://community.logos.com/members/2166/default.aspx
Oh, wait... you started that thread at the request of a Logos employee... oops. Maybe you forgot that before you posted your silly rant.0 -
As another international user, I do appreciate the availability of downloads. That's a great thing. But as has been pointed out, we do need be given the ability to control these. For example, I don't want the fairly regular Mirriam-Websters Dictionary updates, at 123 megs or whatever the exact figure is, to update just because a newer file is available.
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Joe Miller said:
The irony of this thread is that all of the forum complaints I remember reading over the past months from non-US consumers run along the lines,
"can I download this so I don't have to pay for a DVD to be shipped."
"Can I download this so I don't have to wait for shipping to XYZ."
So I would suggest that the general approach of everything being downloadable is a response to non-US users.Joe, there is no irony at all. We have the *choice* to download and we know exactly *what* we are getting with v3. It is quite a different thing to remove that level of control, especially considering the implications of time-consuming, CPU intensive, re-indexing.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Bob Pritchett said:
And besides, we keep hearing from our politicians that our country is way behind the world in broadband Internet access...
Bob, perhaps they should get out of the country more and use mere mortal broadband speeds rather than the high end cable/satelite they are use to in congress and governmental departments around the world [:P] [;)]
How to ask for help for Logos issues.
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Hi Bob and everyone else.
I just want "+1" some of the comments. I really appreciate being able to download resources rather than wait for the CD to arrive - especially when they're smaller downloads.
That said, I've just bumped my plan back up to the $50/month $10GB/month option (from $40 & 5GB). I'm therefore hoping that after next week, I won't be so concerned by the big downloads.
I'd still really appreciate it if I was told how downloads can be reused for other installations (eg attempts at running under Wine). Perhaps this has already been covered somewhere, but I haven't been reading every post or thread - I have plenty more to do!
Nigel
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Had to jump in here. I live in the Bahamas, and do not have caps on bandwith with my isp. I prefer the downloads. Dvd take three to four weeks to get to me. The problem will come if we keep having to index each time a book ships. I have one coming out on the 21 and the other on the 22. I will download the two at the same time. Then wait about nine hours for the indexing of resources to take place.
Pastors who have purchased other books than one of the packages sold by Logos, will be turned off by the long indexing needed before they can open the book, (correct me if I am wrong) and will not migrate easily to 4.o.
It will be one of the greatest stumbling blocks to gettng individuals to migrate.
Sure I need a new Pc, but I am still hoping that in 4.1 or later the indexing problem will be fixed.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Joe, you are obviously a superior individual to me so please pray for me that I might one day reach your heights and not make silly rants about issues that are not important to you..... thankfully though Joe I am saved by the grace of God and and not at all by yours or anyone elses expectations .....
Please Ladies and Gents can we keep the judgemental attidues down. This is a beta program.... with lots of people with lots of different ideas and lots of different things important to each of us.. Some are having less trouble free installations and thus possibly getting a lot more sleep than others of us. This sort of attacking of each other is contributes nothing at all to this process. If what is important to you is different to what is important to me... I have no problem with that... simply express what is important to you but please dont' attack otther people just because they see things from a different pespective...it reflects badly upon you when you do so.
Joe I look foward to continued postiive discussion with you throughout the rest of this beta program and beyond. I appreciate a lot of your comments they are often helpful, insightful and thought provoking, the last couple weren't so lets move on to better things brother.
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Sarcasm and false humility duly noted.AndrewMckenzie said:Joe, you are obviously a superior individual to me so please pray for me that I might one day reach your heights and not make silly rants about issues that are not important to you.....
If you extend that same grace to the Logos folks, we will be fine.AndrewMckenzie said:simply express what is important to you but please dont' attack otther people just because they see things from a different pespective...it reflects badly upon you when you do so.
Same here. A disagreement about these things are just that disagreements about things. I think mature folks can have very different views and very big disagreements without fear of jeopardizing unity in Christ. Paul had lots of them, so I think we are on safe ground brother.AndrewMckenzie said:Joe I look foward to continued postiive discussion with you throughout the rest of this beta program and beyond. I appreciate a lot of your comments they are often helpful, insightful and thought provoking, the last couple weren't so lets move on to better things brother.
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Lynden Williams said:
Pastors who have purchased other books than one of the packages sold by Logos, will be turned off by the long indexing needed before they can open the book, (correct me if I am wrong) and will not migrate easily to 4.o.
This indexing thing is quite an issue for many and I'm sure the programmers are doing their best to work on it.
Just as an idea though, would it be possible to index all new stuff (without huge processor input) into a separate file and allow the user to work with the current index and at the next startup - provided it is completely indexed - have the old index deleted and the new available?
Just a thought and perhaps in the wrong topic (maybe in features?) but at least it's an idea put forward.
Jason
How to ask for help for Logos issues.
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Jason said:Lynden Williams said:
Pastors who have purchased other books than one of the packages sold by Logos, will be turned off by the long indexing needed before they can open the book, (correct me if I am wrong) and will not migrate easily to 4.o.
This indexing thing is quite an issue for many and I'm sure the programmers are doing their best to work on it.
Just as an idea though, would it be possible to index all new stuff (without huge processor input) into a separate file and allow the user to work with the current index and at the next startup - provided it is completely indexed - have the old index deleted and the new available?
Just a thought and perhaps in the wrong topic (maybe in features?) but at least it's an idea put forward.
Jason
Jason, I just got my new Ariel's Genesis Commentary yesterday. When It started to prepare my library, I thought I will not be able to work with Logos for hours. The opposite was true however. After it went through the preparation period, than it started indexing. Shortly after that I was able to use Logos normally and even the new book was available for reading, searching just noticed Logos is indexing. Not a big problem. I assume from the above that Logos is using a former index before the new one is not completed. Then it switches to the new one. The only bother of the indexing is a CPU power consummation. It goes sometimes with my 2 core system on 97%. But notebook works normally, I thing it is using the power which is left after other processes are satisfied. That's just my observation.
Bohuslav
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Bohuslav Wojnar said:
I just got my new Ariel's Genesis Commentary yesterday. When It started to prepare my library, I thought I will not be able to work with Logos for hours. The opposite was true however. After it went through the preparation period, than it started indexing. Shortly after that I was able to use Logos normally and even the new book was available for reading, searching just noticed Logos is indexing. Not a big problem. I assume from the above that Logos is using a former index before the new one is not completed.
Bohuslav
Yes I noticed that it could be used mostly normal. I tried to use a greek text and it wasn't happy initially. Not sure what that was about. Perhaps someone at Logos could shed some light on this and how it works?
Bohuslav Wojnar said:The only bother of the indexing is a CPU power consummation. It goes sometimes with my 2 core system on 97%. But notebook works normally, I thing it is using the power which is left after other processes are satisfied. That's just my observation.
I have found it a bit annoying this use of proccessor power if i try to use another application or need to run virus scans etc.
I'm not sure but I noticed under task manager -> performance -> resource manager that a file called searchindexer.exe has currently got 68000KB attached to it. Is this a logos program? I noticed earlier that it was about 280000KB and I haven't even started Beta4 today! I only ask as I was concerned that over 50% of my RAM is used mostly after using Beta 4. Is it not releasing resources back to the system correctly?
Jason
How to ask for help for Logos issues.
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Bohuslav
I too have purchased the Ariel Book of Genesis.
I am currently re-indexing and after 15 minutes was able to access L4 and the new book was available but re-indexing is continuing.
The resource begins with "A" so that could explain the speed of accessing the resource. I have a new resource I am expecting today - the journal on Church History. I am waiting to test the speed on that too!
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Hi Jason. Searchindexer referes to the someting that Microsoft came out with. It is the "Search Desktop" toolbar at the bottom of your screen. It indexes your computer for faster searching. To the best of my knowledge it has nothing to do with Logos.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Bohuslav
I got Ariel's several days ago. How do you get it into Logos4? I have no problem getting it to work on Logos 3 but no joy with L4.
Longtime Logos user (more than $30,000 in purchases) - now a second class user because I won't pay them more every month or year.
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Alex, to bring in a new resource (and reindex your whole library) in the command bar type:
scan C:\path\to\the\file
where path to the file is the actual path.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Where I previously lived overseas every connection outside the country had to go through a proxy server. Websites inside the country could be reached direct but those outside had to be reached through a manually set up proxy server which could change at any time. None of those proxy servers would have allowed 1GB downloads or anything approaching that. I suppose that once Logos is set up future updates will not be nearly as large but I don't see how Logos4 could be set up to access the Internet through a proxy server in order to log in and syncronise. Maybe there is an easy way with Windows to set a universal proxy server but I just ran everything through Firefox's utility.
Tom
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Lynden Williams said:
Hi Jason. Searchindexer referes to the someting that Microsoft came out with.
Thanks Lynden
Just after I posted that I realised that it was probably the hard drive indexer working.
It got me thinking about Logos perhaps instituting a system similiar so that indexing works in background and uses processor power only when not being used. Additionally it would be great for it to remember where it left off so it indexed only new stuff rather than all stuff
Thanks for replying
Jason
How to ask for help for Logos issues.
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