Logos and the piracy battle.
Hi Guys.
I'm wondering: why do Logos allow people to download ANY files at all through FTP? Why are not all resources, logos itself and everything else completely locked-down and protected through hashing, salting, SHA1 and you-name-it?
I know downloading the resources itself won't give you access to anything, but you are still giving the hackers an open hand by not protecting them, as that gives everyone who wants to crack this software an easy way of accessing the files. All they would need are the license file and the whole system is broken, 'cause the resource files themselves can be easily downloaded from your FTPs by anyone without any protection at all. Also, it consumes A LOT of bandwith. You are in a way hosting the files for the hackers..
All resources should be tied to a users computer the same way windows is tied to a users hardware (and music, videos etc to an itunes account), and they should also be password protected though salting and hashing so that no resources would be generic anymore, but tied to a user specifically. That way, in order for a resource to work in logos, it would first have to be verified against your logos account to see if you are entitled to that resource, then logos would check your lisence file to see if you where allowed to use the resource, then logos would check to see if the computer you use logos on is a valid computer, and if any of these steps failed, you would not be getting the resource at all.
And no hotlinking to resources through FTP. This way no one can download the files as they would have to be shared through some kind of file sharing service, or through torrents. All of them being time consuming and resource consuming ways to get the files, thus preventing the spread of them. And if the resources themselves also were tied to a users account, downloading them from some illegal place would make no sense as the hardware signature wouldn't match, and thus making more problems for them.
Now, the only thing you would need to add, is a way for users to reset their computer lock-downs from time to time, and also set a max amount of computers logos and it's resources could be tied to.
Just my 2 cents on the issue.
Chris
Comments
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I am not familiar with all of the techniques that you mentioned Chris, but you seem to be on the right track, when you mentioned tying it to the users computer. Presently Logos allows you to install the software to as many computers that you own/use. Limiting it to three or four seems more than fair to me.
That way pirating the software will be greatly reduced. With the way it is now, it is easier to pirate than L3.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Lynden Williams said:
I am not familiar with all of the techniques that you mentioned Chris, but you seem to be on the right track, when you mentioned tying it to the users computer. Presently Logos allows you to install the software to as many computers that you own/use. Limiting it to three or four seems more than fair to me.
That way pirating the software will be greatly reduced. With the way it is now, it is easier to pirate than L3.
It's actually harder in L4 to steal products than it was in L3. The only files that are downloadable via FTP are the Libronix files, but things made for L4 are only downloadable from within the software. I'm sure hackers could steal stuff it if they really wanted to. Logos has not put a huge effort into fighting piracy. I suppose they figure if someone wants to steal the Bible and resources useful for studying it, they probably need it more than Logos needs the money. Maybe they will be convicted by the "thou shalt not steal" part...
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I doubt if piracy is that big a problem for Logos. People that want the type of books sold by Logos don't tend to be priates. Of course, I did have a Bible stolen once, so I might be wrong.
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Logos EULA is very generous, but I think your concerns are ill founded. Piracy is dead, (well amost) no Logos 4 books are on the FTP server, they are elsewhere..
Logos took a huge step forward in this ( to annoyance of some users) when designing L4
All books are verified against your Logos Logon when the program starts.
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
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Lynden Williams said:
I am not familiar with all of the techniques that you mentioned Chris, but you seem to be on the right track, when you mentioned tying it to the users computer. Presently Logos allows you to install the software to as many computers that you own/use. Limiting it to three or four seems more than fair to me.
That way pirating the software will be greatly reduced. With the way it is now, it is easier to pirate than L3.
You really think one person can use more than 3 or 4 computers? I think the limit is given clearly by one owner of the license. If you use one computer, your limit is one copy of the software. If you use 3 computers, your limit is 3. Looks very practical to me. The protection of the Logos 4 seems more sophisticated to me than Libronix 3. But I am not an expert.
Bohuslav
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The problem comes in with persons who decide to make money off the software. Consider the process used to verify ownership of the software. In the same way I can login on one computer, that information could easily be shared with several people.
I vote for tying it in to the hardware, and limiting it to four or less computers.
Bob P. has talked about individuals going around on Seminary campuses installing the software on others computers for a price.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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But one person can be logged on to Logos on more than one computer simultaneously (I do it all the time on my desktop and laptop side-by-side)? What is to keep people from giving their logon account and password to a bunch of friends? I suppose the fear that those friends might log on to your Logos account and buy books which would get charged to your credit card is the only protection. Or is there something else? Again, I don't think Logos is particularly worried about this scenario. I think they've been doing very well selling plenty of legitimate copies of it to cover their losses if a few people cheat the system. And the more people have access to God's Word and the means of studying it in depth, the better.
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Rosie, I think mainly what should stop person from giving it to anybody else is he would constantly mess up the owners synced stuff. Of course that is next to the conscience issue, which should be the first in any case, but that's obvious.
Bohuslav
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Lynden Williams said:
I vote for tying it in to the hardware, and limiting it to four or less computers.
Your best security is a none-trivial account password (at least 12 characters) and not telling or giving it to anybody, because you will pay for any purchases made to that account if it contains your credit card details. The number of computers might be Logos' best security but pray they don't use it because you could be limited to 2 with only one installation per computer!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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I had a problem with L4 and was on the phone for about 3 hours with tech support and we got to talking about this issue. He said they were able to see if there were multiple computers using your id and password at once and said they could do something about it if they saw 6 computers in different areas all logged on at once.
Was this correct information? I don't know but I take the tech at his word.
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James Chaisson said:
Was this correct information? I don't know but I take the tech at his word.
It is information they can obtain very easily and they would know how many installations were on one computer!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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It should be true. They can trace the IP address to see the general (or specific, depending on how far they take it) location that it is being used.
I concur with the above posters. Logos 4 is a lot more secure than Libronix. It is not difficult for people to load up another's license file in Libronix. There was a good blog post on this topic a while ago, and I appreciate the steps Logos has taken to improve security while at the same time not making it overly cumbersome for its users.
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James Chaisson said:
I had a problem with L4 and was on the phone for about 3 hours with tech support and we got to talking about this issue. He said they were able to see if there were multiple computers using your id and password at once and said they could do something about it if they saw 6 computers in different areas all logged on at once.
Was this correct information? I don't know but I take the tech at his word.
Sounds logical. In case somebody would break in your account and you would notice strange changes in your synced documents, I think Logos should be able to find out how many computers use your account. Then the change of your password should stop the illegal users from exploiting of your account. Am I right?
Bohuslav
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I don't see how people could share a logon id, with everything syncing on the Logos server you would be tripping over each other like crazy. Just image 2 or 3 of us having our accounts sync to each other, it would be a nightmare.
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Dominick Sela said:
I don't see how people could share a logon id, with everything syncing on the Logos server you would be tripping over each other like crazy.
What is your point, Dominick. 3 people and one logon id is a violation of the EULA whilst 1 people with 3 logon's (same logon id) is not! But that is difficult for Logos to know, even if three people are "tripping over each other"!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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James Chaisson said:
Was this correct information? I don't know but I take the tech at his word.
He only touched the surface of the security layers inherent in the design of Logos 4. To help keep tempted users honest, consider these:
1) Logos has privy to what ISP you log in from.
2) Logos can find your specific address you log in from if they need to.
3) Each computer that logs in has a MAC address built into the hardware (Media Access Controller). It is like an individual electronic fingerprint, if you will. Even if you can clone the chip like Kevin Mitnick, you will get caught.
5) Logos can log multiple computers signing in to your account and what geographical areas they are in.
6) Logos can disable your licenses, or your account access, or destroy your installation if they choose whenever you log in.
7) Logos could have a "time-bomb" hidden in your installation that disables an "orphan" installation after a set period if you are trying to fly below the radar by avoiding synching with the servers.
8) God is watching your every move, and thought, and ...With Logos 4 the future looks very secure.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Bill Gordon said:
I doubt if piracy is that big a problem for Logos. People that want the type of books sold by Logos don't tend to be priates. Of course, I did have a Bible stolen once, so I might be wrong.
You'd be surprised at how much this is an issue. There is a web site devoted to stealing Logos and other Christian digital media content. I was made aware of it when asked to do an article about it. I have not yet done the article, but am thinking about it.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Dave Hooton said:Dominick Sela said:
I don't see how people could share a logon id, with everything syncing on the Logos server you would be tripping over each other like crazy.
What is your point, Dominick. 3 people and one logon id is a violation of the EULA whilst 1 people with 3 logon's (same logon id) is not! But that is difficult for Logos to know, even if three people are "tripping over each other"!
My point is that even though it is a violation of the EULA the practicality of actually doing work in that state of violation is a more severe impediment. IMHO it would not be worth Logos' while to spend any cycles worrying about it, given the architecture they now have.
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Glad to know that they are on top of it.James Chaisson said:I had a problem with L4 and was on the phone for about 3 hours with tech support and we got to talking about this issue. He said they were able to see if there were multiple computers using your id and password at once and said they could do something about it if they saw 6 computers in different areas all logged on at once.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Lynden Williams said:
I vote for tying it in to the hardware, and limiting it to four or less computers.
I vote no. I have a desktop and a laptop each containing a Windows and a Mac version. That would appear to be 4 computers. Now, if I ever convinced my wife to use Logos, we would exceed your limit. I like the present system. If it ain't broke…
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Curious as to why Chris started this thread earlier today? Did he see something specific - or was it meant as just a general question?
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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Jack Caviness said:Lynden Williams said:
vote for tying it in to the hardware, and limiting it to four or less computers.
I vote no. I have a desktop and a laptop each containing a Windows and a Mac version. That would appear to be 4 computers. Now, if I ever convinced my wife to use Logos, we would exceed your limit. I like the present system. If it ain't broke…
I think the current setup is working for the most part. I would be interested if there is still significant Piracy going on of Logos 4. I know there is of Logos 3, but I doubt it is very easy to get 4 pirated.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Matthew C Jones said:
6) Logos can disable your licenses, or your account access, or destroy your installation if they choose whenever you log in.
Logos don't need to "destroy" when they can detect and disable as per the EULA
"We reserve the right to monitor
logins to the Software and to detect, prevent and disable excessive
simultaneous logins by the same account using different computers."Matthew C Jones said:7) Logos could have a "time-bomb" hidden in your installation that disables an "orphan" installation after a set period if you are trying to fly below the radar by avoiding synching with the servers.
I note use of "could" but that would be unethical as Logos allow offline installation.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Floyd Johnson said:
Curious as to why Chris started this thread earlier today? Did he see something specific - or was it meant as just a general question?
Logos 3 stuff is on the pirate boards but very little out there is harmless and actually what it is purported to be. Besides the evil people who are trying to gain access to your computer, some fraudulent stuff is seeded by the copyright holder to frustrate searchers from finding the real thing. Sony/BMG filled the net with mp3s and videos that had been doctored for unpleasant side-effects on playback. Pirate software out of China & Russia include things like the Pake virus or other dangerous spyware. Can you imagine downloading hundreds of megabytes in Libronix stuff just to crash your computer? Those who attempt to gain Bible software this way pretty much get what they deserve. And who are they gonna complain to when they were complicit in an attempt to circumvent the law? (I'm not saying anybody here would ever do that. )
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Dave Hooton said:
Logos don't need to "destroy" when they can detect and disable as per the EULA
Yeah, I know that. [:D] But they "could." and In Numbers 16:32 God could have just stopped Korah's heart but instead chose to drastically open up the earth and swallow them up! (I just love being dramatic.)
If I were in charge the program would become non-functional with a friendly announcement that "with proper payment or documentation, program functionality can be restored."
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
If I were in charge the program would become non-functional with a friendly announcement
Please don't hire this man[:)]
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Why on earth is potential piracy any concern to me? If Logos ran into problems of hackers add offensive materials to the resources, it might become my problem. But I can see little reason to be terribly concerned about hackers - the security is unlikely to be an interesting problem, there is little bragging rights to be gained ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Why on earth is potential piracy any concern to me?
You could have ignored the thread ...
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
You could have ignored the thread ..
Quite true ... and I did skip over several entries. But I was truly interested to know why the original poster had concerns about piracy.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Ahhh, yes! The OP ...
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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MJ. Smith said:Dave Hooton said:
You could have ignored the thread ..
Quite true ... and I did skip over several entries. But I was truly interested to know why the original poster had concerns about piracy.
If piracy were to become a major problem it could impact Logos's bottom line and thus drive the prices up for all of us honest people in order for them to cover their losses. However I doubt it's very likely.
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Rosie Perera said:
If piracy were to become a major problem it could impact Logos's bottom line and thus drive the prices up for all of us honest people in order for them to cover their losses.
Yes, and if all their technical and administrative staff died of bubonic plague, the inability to support and finish the product might cause financial failure. [:O]Shall we say that when I was in college we discovered that everyone had grown up being told why where you lived would be in the top three targets for Russia. For me, it was proximity to the Grand Coulee dam. Shall we say that I'm a skeptic when it comes to doomsday scenarios.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
But I can see little reason to be terribly concerned about hackers
I don't think the original post was concerned about hackers doing harm so much as some people getting free use after the honest users paid a premium price for the software. If I have to eat cup noodle for another year to pay for my software, so should they!
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Rosie Perera said:MJ. Smith said:Dave Hooton said:
You could have ignored the thread ..
Quite true ... and I did skip over several entries. But I was truly interested to know why the original poster had concerns about piracy.
If piracy were to become a major problem it could impact Logos's bottom line and thus drive the prices up for all of us honest people in order for them to cover their losses. However I doubt it's very likely.
If they do not lose out because of pirated software, then they can sell their resources at a greater discount. Then more people can afford to buy their products. If more people buy their products, this will cause more publishers to publish their books in Logos fromat. This will drive the price down even further, as they can make a smaller percentage margin, but make up with volume. This inturn will bring more users to the software, then more publishers/books.
You get the idea. Maybe in the next five or so years, instead of Logos having 200 employees, they will have 20,000 in the book markup section alone. A few weeks after the author/s finish their work, it will be ready for publication, as Logos staff will be formatting the chapters as soon as they are finished.
Am I dreaming? Yes. Is it possible? I believe so. Everything ever published/recorded available in Logos Bible Software.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Matthew C Jones said:
I don't think the original post was concerned about hackers doing harm so much as some people getting free use after the honest users paid a premium price for the software. If I have to eat cup noodle for another year to pay for my software, so should they!
I can accept that - but the original post seemed to come out of nowhere. Unless there was another thread that began this discussion that I did not see. Is the poster aware that someone is making a brazen attempt to rip off LOGOS?
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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Lynden Williams said:
If piracy were to become a major problem it could impact Logos's bottom line and thus drive the prices up for all of us honest people in order for them to cover their losses. However I doubt it's very likely.
Most major companies have a built-in system that factors loss into the expense of running the business. They know there will be losses and accept that. In Logos' case I doubt the losses impact sales because the hackers would not normally buy or use the software anyway.Many just view it as a challenge to beat. The real losses are in piracy sales of bootleg software to users who want it for the purpose of using it. Since there is the spiritual factor involved, I imagine eventually a user would quit using bootleg and buy a legal license.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Lynden Williams said:
Is it possible? I believe so. Everything ever published/recorded available in Logos Bible Software.
No-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o!! I already have a hard enough time keeping my finger off the "Add to Cart" and "Easy Preorder" buttons. I don't need so many more titles to tempt me! [:(]
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Rosie, please do not yield to temptation. Buy them for me. [:D]
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Hi everybody
I remember my grandpa's Bible, with money hidden inside.
He use to told me "if someone steals, he surely doesn't read the Bible. If someone reads the Bible, he surely doesn't steal".
I guess this is not the case anymore. When I first read about the login process in Logos, I inmediatly know that the design was driven by piracy concerns. Previously, you can download entire Libronix collections with license files ready to use from pirate sites. You just have to forget about updates, but even Platinum Collection was available on some sites.
Now? I find the sync process to be a major "killing feature" so to speak. I use my primary notebook to work, close it, and the open Logos on my "travel" machine the next day. Everything is there! Up to the last word of my notes, written the day before on the other PC.
I won't like to enter my Logos and find someones else notes, reading plans, etc. So, IMHO, the primary anti-piracy protection for Logos is convenience: I won't like, no, I won't stand to find someone else study notes, reading plans, etc., merged to mine in my study tool. Do you?
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Floyd Johnson said:
I can accept that - but the original post seemed to come out of nowhere. Unless there was another thread that began this discussion that I did not see. Is the poster aware that someone is making a brazen attempt to rip off LOGOS?
I can't answer for the poster but in the secular world I have witnessed hundreds? of brazen offers of pirating software and music. The content doesn't seem to matter, it is just a common daily occurance. It is possible somebody overheard the OP likes Logos and offered to procure a bootleg copy for him. Maybe he did a search for Logos software and came up with the pirate board hits. They are good at placing their sites high in the hit list.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I am very grateful that Logos hasn't adopted heavy-handed piracy-control techniques like Microsoft and especially Adobe have. I am an honest purchaser of the software and their registration processes likely do very little to hinder piracy and do much to hinder the honest user.
I really appreciate the level-headedness of Logos in terms of their EULA. I love that signing in actually does something to benefit me (syncing) and isn't purely to detract from piracy. I love that Logos is a Christian company whose intended audience is primarily Christians and therefore we can act quite differently from the way the world has to act.
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
Jacob Hantla said:
I am very grateful that Logos hasn't adopted heavy-handed piracy-control techniques like Microsoft and especially Adobe have. I am an honest purchaser of the software and their registration processes likely do very little to hinder piracy and do much to hinder the honest user.
I really appreciate the level-headedness of Logos in terms of their EULA. I love that signing in actually does something to benefit me (syncing) and isn't purely to detract from piracy. I love that Logos is a Christian company whose intended audience is primarily Christians and therefore we can act quite differently from the way the world has to act.
I agree with you and like your approach. The problem might start to be more serious when Logos would start to offer some more well known and expensive secular resources. With the Christian content Logos is in much safer environment than other software companies. So, Logos, stay Christian...[:)]
Bohuslav
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Jacob Hantla said:
I am very grateful that Logos hasn't adopted heavy-handed piracy-control techniques like Microsoft and especially Adobe have.
That's interesting because I have very little choice about M$ ie. if I like their OS & software I have to put up with the rest (like Outlook requiring to be re-activated because I changed the network!). But Adobe made such a heavyweight monster of their pdf reader that I threw it out. I also threw out my security suite because two of its modules ran amok on my computers. Now, the market supports viable alternatives for the latter two pieces of software but I would have to go back to L3 if Logos got too heavy-handed with aspects of L4. So if vendors get heavy-handed with aspects of the software that have nothing to do with its core functionality they risk that sort of retaliation.
However, we can complain to good effect to Logos and they can get away with more imperfections in the product than a non-Christian company would (I'm not implying any strategy that takes advantage of Christian customers) and there is a corresponding higher level of mutual trust and tolerance (which has been severely strained by some aspects of L4!) but there is some aspect of the "Christian" user persona that says 'I can do what I like with this product' and effectively abuse the EULA that was agreed to because of monetary considerations. So we have our part to play in terms of piracy.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Bill Gordon said:
I doubt if piracy is that big a problem for Logos. People that want the type of books sold by Logos don't tend to be priates. Of course, I did have a Bible stolen once, so I might be wrong.
Actually, you might be surprised at the number of Christians who share software, cds, sheet music, and numerous other copyrighted materials. I am constantly reminding members of my congregation that it is illegal to do such things. One lady actually asked me if she could borrow my copy of Office 2007 because she had accidently deleted her copy of Office 2003 and could not find her disc. She was honestly surprised when I told her no because it would be a breach of the license agreement and theft. It most of the cases I encounter, people are simply ignorant of the law and copyrights. The CCLI license agreements do cover most situations in our church events but there are still members who bring audio and video cds from home that are obviously copies not the originals. I usually just gently remind them that it is illegal to copy such items and let it go at that. I trust that once they are made aware of the breach of ethics and law (both civil and God's) then it is up to the Holy Spirit to convict and guide them.
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Floyd Johnson said:
Curious as to why Chris started this thread earlier today? Did he see something specific - or was it meant as just a general question?
Periodically, a new poster appears on the forums with a thought-provoking post. The discussion continues for several pages, but the OP seldom appears again. I'm not complaining, but it does make me curious. Quite often, the ensuing discussions become very interesting in themselves, as this one has.
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MJ. Smith said:
Yes, and if all their technical and administrative staff died of bubonic plague, the inability to support and finish the product might cause financial failure.
Shall we say that when I was in college we discovered that everyone had grown up being told why where you lived would be in the top three targets for Russia. For me, it was proximity to the Grand Coulee dam. Shall we say that I'm a skeptic when it comes to doomsday scenarios.So are you saying in general that you don't believe that piracy is a problem and it does not affect the bottom line of companies which in turn drives up prices for honest users? Or is it that you don't see it becoming a problem for Logos?
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Jack Caviness said:
Periodically, a new poster appears on the forums with a thought-provoking post. The discussion continues for several pages, but the OP seldom appears again. I'm not complaining, but it does make me curious. Quite often, the ensuing discussions become very interesting in themselves, as this one has.
I've noticed that a lot lately, Jack: folks posing a question and then never coming back to discuss the responses.That's very odd behavior. Trolls used to do that in the NGs back in the good old days....heheh.
I wandered into this thread this morning and was glad i did. Sometimes I leave L4 open on my home computer. (I want to do that this week in anticipation of the Zondervan download, but I won't now.) When I get to class I activate L4 on both the laptop and the netbook. The laptop is used for powerpoint and has links to various and sundry places in L4, while the netbook simply contains my instructor notes from L4. So, I guess I need to ensure that my home computer doesn't have L4 activated when I'm away. Tres interessant....
{charley}
running Logos Bible Software 6.0a: Collector's Edition on HP e9220y (AMD Phenom II X4 2.60GHz 8.00GB 64-bit Win 7 Pro SP1) & iPad (mini) apps.
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Dr. Charles A. Wootten said:
So, I guess I need to ensure that my home computer doesn't have L4 activated when I'm away
Dr Charley,
The Logos people know how to recognize the difference between your three computers and three "cheaters" sharing the same license. :
<<<-----------Unless you have a cat that does thisEven if some hacker successfully got into your Logos account (doubtful) and hijacked it, Logos could tell by their activity, location and data they are not you. The biggest danger leaving L4 open and logged in on an accessible, unsecured computer is somebody could mess up your notes. If they are synchronized, the backup on the servers would also retain the trespasser's note changes. My grandbabies could do me more damage than a hacker.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
Unless you have a cat that does this
That is why I am a dog person. A dog (especially a pug) would sit at the desk and type with his front paws. [:D]
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Ha!! You don't have our cat, who loves to sit on my wife's lap while she works at her computer. She has learned to use the Enter key (the cat that is), usually at most inopportune times.
Longtime Logos user (more than $30,000 in purchases) - now a second class user because I won't pay them more every month or year.
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