Logos and the piracy battle.

Hi Guys.

I'm wondering: why do Logos allow people to download ANY files at all through FTP? Why are not all resources, logos itself and everything else completely locked-down and protected through hashing, salting, SHA1 and you-name-it?

I know downloading the resources itself won't give you access to anything, but you are still giving the hackers an open hand by not protecting them, as that gives everyone who wants to crack this software an easy way of accessing the files. All they would need are the license file and the whole system is broken, 'cause the resource files themselves can be easily downloaded from your FTPs by anyone without any protection at all. Also, it consumes A LOT of bandwith. You are in a way hosting the files for the hackers..

All resources should be tied to a users computer the same way windows is tied to a users hardware (and music, videos etc to an itunes account), and they should also be password protected though salting and hashing so that no resources would be generic anymore, but tied to a user specifically. That way, in order for a resource to work in logos, it would first have to be verified against your logos account to see if you are entitled to that resource, then logos would check your lisence file to see if you where allowed to use the resource, then logos would check to see if the computer you use logos on is a valid computer, and if any of these steps failed, you would not be getting the resource at all.

And no hotlinking to resources through FTP. This way no one can download the files as they would have to be shared through some kind of file sharing service, or through torrents. All of them being time consuming and resource consuming ways to get the files, thus preventing the spread of them. And if the resources themselves also were tied to a users account, downloading them from some illegal place would make no sense as the hardware signature wouldn't match, and thus making more problems for them.

Now, the only thing you would need to add, is a way for users to reset their computer lock-downs from time to time, and also set a max amount of computers logos and it's resources could be tied to.

Just my 2 cents on the issue.

Chris

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Comments

Lynden O. Williams

I am not familiar with all of the techniques that you mentioned Chris, but you seem to be on the right track, when you mentioned tying it to the users computer. Presently Logos allows you to install the software to as many computers that you own/use. Limiting it to three or four seems more than fair to me.

That way pirating the software will be greatly reduced. With the way it is now, it is easier to pirate than L3.

Rosie Perera

I am not familiar with all of the techniques that you mentioned Chris, but you seem to be on the right track, when you mentioned tying it to the users computer. Presently Logos allows you to install the software to as many computers that you own/use. Limiting it to three or four seems more than fair to me.

That way pirating the software will be greatly reduced. With the way it is now, it is easier to pirate than L3.

It's actually harder in L4 to steal products than it was in L3. The only files that are downloadable via FTP are the Libronix files, but things made for L4 are only downloadable from within the software. I'm sure hackers could steal stuff it if they really wanted to. Logos has not put a huge effort into fighting piracy. I suppose they figure if someone wants to steal the Bible and resources useful for studying it, they probably need it more than Logos needs the money. Maybe they will be convicted by the "thou shalt not steal" part...

Bill Gordon

I doubt if piracy is that big a problem for Logos. People that want the type of books sold by Logos don't tend to be priates. Of course, I did have a Bible stolen once, so I might be wrong.

DominicM

Logos EULA is very generous, but I think your concerns are ill founded. Piracy is dead, (well amost) no Logos 4 books are on the FTP server, they are elsewhere..

Logos took a huge step forward in this ( to annoyance of some users) when designing L4

All books are verified against your Logos Logon when the program starts.

Kevin A. Purcell

I doubt if piracy is that big a problem for Logos. People that want the type of books sold by Logos don't tend to be priates. Of course, I did have a Bible stolen once, so I might be wrong.

You'd be surprised at how much this is an issue. There is a web site devoted to stealing Logos and other Christian digital media content. I was made aware of it when asked to do an article about it. I have not yet done the article, but am thinking about it.

Bob Schlessman

I doubt if piracy is that big a problem for Logos. People that want the type of books sold by Logos don't tend to be priates. Of course, I did have a Bible stolen once, so I might be wrong.

Actually, you might be surprised at the number of Christians who share software, cds, sheet music, and numerous other copyrighted materials. I am constantly reminding members of my congregation that it is illegal to do such things. One lady actually asked me if she could borrow my copy of Office 2007 because she had accidently deleted her copy of Office 2003 and could not find her disc. She was honestly surprised when I told her no because it would be a breach of the license agreement and theft. It most of the cases I encounter, people are simply ignorant of the law and copyrights. The CCLI license agreements do cover most situations in our church events but there are still members who bring audio and video cds from home that are obviously copies not the originals. I usually just gently remind them that it is illegal to copy such items and let it go at that. I trust that once they are made aware of the breach of ethics and law (both civil and God's) then it is up to the Holy Spirit to convict and guide them.

Filadelfia Vennesla

That's not right. Is may seem harder to get the files as they are downloaded through the logos software, but all you need is a program that sniffs network traffic, and you will very easily find the FTP URLs for all the resources. And since they are not password protected, you can just downlod them as with L3.

I don't think they spend a lot of resources on this matter, but they could make it a lot harder to do this than how it's today.

Dewayne Davis

I doubt if piracy is that big a problem for Logos. People that want the type of books sold by Logos don't tend to be priates. Of course, I did have a Bible stolen once, so I might be wrong.

Actually, you might be surprised at the number of Christians who share software, cds, sheet music, and numerous other copyrighted materials. I am constantly reminding members of my congregation that it is illegal to do such things. One lady actually asked me if she could borrow my copy of Office 2007 because she had accidentally deleted her copy of Office 2003 and could not find her disc. She was honestly surprised when I told her no because it would be a breach of the license agreement and theft. It most of the cases I encounter, people are simply ignorant of the law and copyrights. The CCLI license agreements do cover most situations in our church events but there are still members who bring audio and video cds from home that are obviously copies not the originals. I usually just gently remind them that it is illegal to copy such items and let it go at that. I trust that once they are made aware of the breach of ethics and law (both civil and God's) then it is up to the Holy Spirit to convict and guide them.

This is a good point. When I first ever heard of Bible software, I was
so excited. A friend and I in church went halves to buy what we could.
That was back when versions were sold separately on 3-1/2" (make that 5-1/4" )floppies. He
and I had no clue of copyrights of software. We thought we were doing
the prudent thing as good stewards. Now of course we would have never dreamed of going into that store at night and taken them. But in effect that is what we were doing. Some time later I paid for his half
just because I wanted it to be mine and I used it more. It had nothing to do with moral obligation.

I later went through another
phase that it was not immoral but only a technical legal issue
concerning both software and music. It wasn't until recent years that I
came to a clear understanding of the realities of it all. I still have
people all around me that just don't get it. In fact I would venture to
bet that 8 out of ten people don't see anything wrong with it. God went
to some pretty incredible measures to bring me to an understanding that
it is stealing. I think God will do the same with anyone who belongs to
Him. And those that don't would lose interest and not use it in the long run.

But there are a lot of militant pirates out there on this issue who believe, or at least proclaim strongly that it is the Bible Software companies that are in the wrong because they sell what some can't afford. They have the "Robin Hood" mentality, instead of looking to God for providing it to them if they really need it.

I think Bob said it well here.

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers,
against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and
against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Rich DeRuiter

Hi Guys.

I'm wondering: why do Logos allow people to download ANY files at all through FTP? Why are not all resources, logos itself and everything else completely locked-down and protected through hashing, salting, SHA1 and you-name-it?

This has been discussed, somewhere in the last 6 to 9 months or so, but I don't know if it was on these forums, or somewhere else.

There are two issues, as I understand it:

First, is it worth the time, money and end-user hassles to put such a program in place. To answer that question, one would need to know the amount of loss Logos has with L4 resources vs. the cost to put some kind of fix in place, like the ones you suggested above. If I remember the conversation correctly, Logos didn't believe the cost of such a program would be less than the loss the expect with the current setup. They believe this for many of the reasons mentioned already in this thread.

Second, almost all major distributors of online material (iTunes, Amazon, to name 2 biggies), have dropped DRM schemes from most of their downloads because legal users don't like them, and they don't work. There are simply too many ways around the schemes for them to have real value. Somebody will always find a way around a DRM scheme. I'm not aware of any that haven't been breached.

You mentioned iTunes above. The problem with iTunes is that the moment it allows you to burn a song to a CD, the DRM scheme is bypassed, since anyone with basic computer knowledge can then rip the tune from the CD to an MP3. This is not just true of music, video rippers have been available since before DRM that will simply record whatever you can see on your screen (even if it writes directly to the screen through the video card).

After the second time our house was burglarized in the Dominican Republic, I realized that no matter how many locks I put on the doors and bars on the windows, the best I could do was frustrate a burglar and hope he would go away. A determined burglar can't be stopped. In the mean-time, all those locks posed a safety hazard in case of fire or earthquake. So there's a trade-off. There's always a trade-off.

I suspect that Logos is much more aware of the issues and the options than you or I.

BTW, I'm not only curious about the reason this seems like a concern to you, I'm also curious about the voluminous response you received here. I wonder why this is an issue for so many people (regardless of viewpoint). Maybe it's just a slow day on the forums.

Matthew C Jones

Maybe it's just a slow day on the forums.

Slow day.

I'm just watching the Pre-Pub page for the release of Zondervan's titles. (It is still available for the Pre-Pub price folks.)

http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/5656

Filadelfia Vennesla

Never mind this post. It was stupid of me to post. Did it late at night, without thinking clearly, so much of what I've written in a couple of posts is plain stupid and not logical. That's what you get for trying to write something in a language that's not your mother tongue..

MODS: Please delete the topic!

Rosie Perera

Never mind this post. It was stupid of me to post. Did it late at night, without thinking clearly, so much of what I've written in a couple of posts is plain stupid and not logical. That's what you get for trying to write something in a language that's not your mother tongue..

MODS: Please delete the topic!

They don't tend to delete entire threads unless there's been a gross violation of Logos's forum guidelines, which this doesn't constitute at all. There are still posts within this thread which are informative and may be of some value to other readers, even if you regret having asked your initial question.

MJ. Smith

That's what you get for trying to write something in a language that's not your mother tongue..

You could have fooled me - it never occurred to me that English wasn't your mother tongue.

Matt Hamrick

. . .but there are still members who bring audio and video cds from home that are obviously copies not the originals.

Hi Bob,

In today's world with all the technology you will never see my family or I bring an original copy of any CD. I don't use the original disk anymore. When I buy a CD I make a copy of it. I don't use the originals because they get damaged. I use the copies. When my copy gets damaged I throw it out and make another copy. I have trained my children to do this. I hope they train their children to do it. I don't pirate stuff and you'll never find anything pirated on my system. However, I protect anything I buy so I make copies of it and use the copies. I can't imagine how much money I have saved from having to replace originals since I started making copies. My point is I doubt I'm the only one who does this. Just because your members bring copies does not mean they are violating anything. They just can't pass those copies on to anybody though. I am starting to do the same thing with my movies. The movies are not as important as the music though.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

Hello,

Could you please tell me the website you are talking about devoted to stealing Logos and other biblical software? I certainly could never, ever hope to afford to buy Logos but I really enjoy using it to study the bible. Logos is not losing money because even if I did not steal the software, I would not buy it. I simply cannot afford it.

Thank you

Welcome [:D]

May want to change forum display name (to avoid attracting spam) Using the Forums => How to change your Forum display name

Logos software is free, but resource licenses are not. Thankful for several affordable resource bundles for use in Logos 4 (including free Perseus collections).

Thankful for free Bible Software alternatives with many resources (albeit free software for Windows lacks many Logos 4 capabilities).

Thankful for Logos resource license purchases so Logos can pay their employees (and families) to eat (and wear clothes, ...).

Keep Smiling [:)]

Matthew C Jones

Could you please tell me the website you are talking about devoted to stealing Logos and other biblical software? I certainly could never, ever hope to afford to buy Logos but I really enjoy using it to study the bible. Logos is not losing money because even if I did not steal the software, I would not buy it. I simply cannot afford it.

No, because the real issue is not the price of the software but the price of a clear conscience or possibly your mortal soul.

Here are three Bible verses that seem to relate to your post: Mark 8:37 Matthew 16:26 Psalm 51:6

You do not really need any Bible software until you nail down the obvious application of these three verses.

If you happen to find a source for stolen Logos software, be ready to defend yourself against identity theft, credit card & bank fraud, and illegal pornography that your ISP logs and reports to Federal authorities.